Pathfinder 1e, build optimization question: The melee sorcerer

[Kurald Galain]

And it depends on which caster trick we’re using but certainly not 16.

The one you specified earlier was Form Of The Dragon III, so yeah, that means level 16 for a sorcerer.

[Gnaeus]

The one you specified earlier was Form Of The Dragon III, so yeah, that means level 16 for a sorcerer.

Hardly. Form of the dragon 3 isn’t the trick. It’s just the last in a series of forms. It has been turning into a dragon as a spell like since ECL 12, and utilizing combat forms since as early as 5 (although the low level Polymorph line spells are pretty much made obsolete by the claw/claw/unarmed strike routine which comes on line level 2). Admittedly, the magus can also use these spells, so the Sorcerer is only really better at them after level 10, EXCEPT of course that the sorcerer has enough spells per day to toss off pre combat buffs and still have plenty of available combat spells long before the magus can. So if the magus and sorcerer are both routinely throwing out a couple of monstrous physiques a day by level 7 the sorcerer is left with 15 combat spells to the Magus’ 9. It’s not an end of game advantage. It’s a more than 2/3 of the game advantage. You don’t need a huge in combat action advantage to get spells off when you have enough spells that your best buffs can be running when you open the door and still have slots to burn.

[TheStranger]

Hardly. Form of the dragon 3 isn’t the trick. It’s just the last in a series of forms. It has been turning into a dragon as a spell like since ECL 12, and utilizing combat forms since as early as 5 (although the low level Polymorph line spells are pretty much made obsolete by the claw/claw/unarmed strike routine which comes on line level 2). Admittedly, the magus can also use these spells, so the Sorcerer is only really better at them after level 10, EXCEPT of course that the sorcerer has enough spells per day to toss off pre combat buffs and still have plenty of available combat spells long before the magus can. So if the magus and sorcerer are both routinely throwing out a couple of monstrous physiques a day by level 7 the sorcerer is left with 15 combat spells to the Magus’ 9. It’s not an end of game advantage. It’s a more than 2/3 of the game advantage. You don’t need a huge in combat action advantage to get spells off when you have enough spells that your best buffs can be running when you open the door and still have slots to burn.

The Sorcerer is definitely a stronger caster than the Magus, and that generally means a higher power ceiling and more versatility overall. But when it comes to melee the Magus can cast all the same buffs and is generally buffing from a higher starting point. Plus the Magus has a lot of class features that work as swift action in-combat buffs and that the Sorcerer can’t match without burning spell slots and combat actions.

The Magus has a big combat action advantage that IMO the Sorcerer can’t quite make up. The Sorcerer can quicken spells, but not his highest-level spells and not all his spells for the day. The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee. You can avoid needing to cast in combat by pre-buffing, but the Magus can do that too. And spell combat also lets the Magus throw out short-term buffs, party buffs, debuffs, AoE effects, etc. in combat while still engaging in melee.

No question the Sorcerer is a stronger caster. Full casters are better at magic than partial casters. And with a good buff routine the Sorcerer can be as strong in melee as the Magus (I don’t think stronger, except possibly at the highest levels because 9th level spells are like that). But IMO the Magus is a better *melee caster* than the Sorcerer because of the built-in synergy between combat and casting.

[Psyren]

The Sorcerer can quicken spells, but not his highest-level spells and not all his spells for the day.

Rods exist, and no sorcerer needs to quicken all their spells (long-term buffs exist too, as do contingencies, Time Stop etc.)

The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee.

Any spell on his list, which is worse than the Sorcerer's.


I enjoy Magus too, but the answer to the question "EK or Magus?" is not merely about which one feels more like a "melee caster." The answer relies on other questions, such as what concept does the OP have for the character, what's the expected power level of the campaign, and who else is in the party.

[Gnaeus]

The Magus has a big combat action advantage that IMO the Sorcerer can’t quite make up. The Sorcerer can quicken spells, but not his highest-level spells and not all his spells for the day. The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee. You can avoid needing to cast in combat by pre-buffing, but the Magus can do that too. And spell combat also lets the Magus throw out short-term buffs, party buffs, debuffs, AoE effects, etc. in combat while still engaging in melee.

Except as mentioned that
1: the sorcerer has the spell slots to burn in pre combat buffing. If the magus and sorcerer both cast 10 buffs/day at 7, the sorcerer is still a caster and the magus is a bad fighter.
2. Minionmancy is a thing for high tier casters. The sorcerer can have skeletons with a better attack routine than the sorcerer, AND a bound minion casting spells and spell likes, AND quicken spells, and melee all in the same round. By level 9-11 the sorcerer smashes the Magus’ action economy advantage and never looks back.

. The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee.

Any spell on his list, which is worse than the Sorcerer's.

The magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee until he runs out of spells. Which at the levels Kurald wants to talk about (because the higher the level the better the sorcerer looks) is a bit less than 2 combats per day.

. Plus the Magus has a lot of class features that work as swift action in-combat buffs and that the Sorcerer can’t match without burning spell slots and combat actions.

Really? Because at level 2 the sorcerer is using a Swift to activate 2 claw attacks on top of his monk unarmed strike. At level 2 the Magus is using a Swift to get a +1 enhancement. The sorcerer should outdamage the magus at most levels on any round the magus isn’t channeling a touch spell.

And let’s not forget all the permanent buffs. Flight. Blindsense. Energy resistance. Buffs to strength, con, NA. The magus is using his Swift actions to catch up.

[TheStranger]

Except as mentioned that
1: the sorcerer has the spell slots to burn in pre combat buffing. If the magus and sorcerer both cast 10 buffs/day at 7, the sorcerer is still a caster and the magus is a bad fighter.
2. Minionmancy is a thing for high tier casters. The sorcerer can have skeletons with a better attack routine than the sorcerer, AND a bound minion casting spells and spell likes, AND quicken spells, and melee all in the same round. By level 9-11 the sorcerer smashes the Magus’ action economy advantage and never looks back.

IME the Magus has plenty of spell slots by mid levels for all but the longest adventuring days. And several abilities that use pool points to buff in combat, which saves on spell slots as well. Plus the ability to use pool points to restore spell slots. The Sorcerer has an advantage here, but the Magus has what he needs to keep his schtick going through a normal day’s worth of encounters.

Minionmancy is absolutely a thing. But at that point you’re dominating combat by being a high level caster, not by being a melee caster. Which is fine if that’s your goal. So I concede your point about effectiveness via minionmancy, but it doesn’t satisfy my desire to play a gish character. YMMV, of course.

The Magus spell list has most of the combat-related spells from the Sorcerer list, but I agree it’s not as broad. No debate that nine levels of casting from the best list in the game is better than six from a limited list, that goes without saying. But the Magus list is pretty good and if you really need a spell from the Sorcerer list you can get it.

In any case, I think Psyren has the right of it - you’re not right or wrong to play a Magus or a Sorc/DD, it’s just a matter of personal preference and I can only speak to my own. For raw casting power and versatility I’d take the Sorcerer by a mile. For buffing and wading into melee I’d lean Magus at most levels but it’s close enough that by high levels a Sorcerer who’s specced for it probably does some things better. For overall power level, I actually agree that the Sorcerer has an edge, but IMO it’s closer than you make it out to be, and that’s mostly what I’m arguing for. But for just generally feeling like a spell-slinging, sword-swinging bada**, I’ll take the Magus.

[Gnaeus]

IME the Magus has plenty of spell slots by mid levels for all but the longest adventuring days. And several abilities that use pool points to buff in combat, which saves on spell slots as well. Plus the ability to use pool points to restore spell slots. The Sorcerer has an advantage here, but the Magus has what he needs to keep his schtick going through a normal day’s worth of encounters.

IME it doesn’t. So since our anecdotal evidence cancels out, I guess we need math. Assuming 4, 5 round fights per day (or 5, 4 round fights), the magus doesn’t have the ability to keep his schtick going until level 10. Assuming that he is using spell recall at 10 to recover a spell. And assuming that he spends 0 slots on utility or pre-buffing. And assuming that you really want to be relying on first level spells for your last combat of the day at 10th level.

Minionmancy is absolutely a thing. But at that point you’re dominating combat by being a high level caster, not by being a melee caster. Which is fine if that’s your goal. So I concede your point about effectiveness via minionmancy, but it doesn’t satisfy my desire to play a gish character. YMMV, of course.

This is using the non-standard definition of Gish as meaning “a spellcaster who doesn’t use good spells”as opposed to “a spellcaster who regularly enters melee.” Because the presence of my pet lillend enhances, not reduces, the ability of the dragon form sorcerer to eat someone’s face

[Kurald Galain]

Assuming 4, 5 round fights per day (or 5, 4 round fights),

That's excessive. Come now, if your players know what they're doing then the average combat doesn't last four rounds. If you're playing adventure paths (or any GM taking inspiration from those), then a more reasonable count is 10-12 rounds of combat per day.

[Psyren]

I can totally understand the desire for a gish character to not feel like they need to summon/bind minions. But even without conjuring backup I think a Sorc/DD can be on par with a Magus economy-wise in practice, and of course well exceed them in terms of both utility and raw firepower for the party. Spell Combat is the most straightforward way of maximizing your actions, but it's far from the only one, and what you gain by giving it up in this case can be well worth it in a high-level campaign imo.

(Also - there's action economy and there's action economy. If you spend your turn feared or confused or fascinated for instance, or just plain dead because they got you instead of your astral projection, your action economy has dropped to zero )

[TheStranger]

IME it doesn’t. So since our anecdotal evidence cancels out, I guess we need math. Assuming 4, 5 round fights per day (or 5, 4 round fights), the magus doesn’t have the ability to keep his schtick going until level 10. Assuming that he is using spell recall at 10 to recover a spell. And assuming that he spends 0 slots on utility or pre-buffing. And assuming that you really want to be relying on first level spells for your last combat of the day at 10th level.



This is using the non-standard definition of Gish as meaning “a spellcaster who doesn’t use good spells”as opposed to “a spellcaster who regularly enters melee.” Because the presence of my pet lillend enhances, not reduces, the ability of the dragon form sorcerer to eat someone’s face

If you have 4 5-round fights, that doesn’t mean you need to cast 20 spells. My general approach was to nova the first couple rounds of most combats then conserve spell slots once the fight is pretty much decided. Also, bonus spells are a thing (for both classes, obviously) and give you a few extra spell slots to work with. And there are a couple spells, like frostbite, that give you a few rounds worth of touch attacks to deliver with your weapon if you don’t want to cast a spell every round.

There’s definitely a level range where the Magus needs to ration his spells and pool points and can’t have all the fun all the time, but it’s not as bad as you make it out to be.

As I said, YMMV. If minionmancy scratches your melee caster itch, more power to you.

I can totally understand the desire for a gish character to not feel like they need to summon/bind minions. But even without conjuring backup I think a Sorc/DD can be on par with a Magus economy-wise in practice, and of course well exceed them in terms of both utility and raw firepower for the party. Spell Combat is the most straightforward way of maximizing your actions, but it's far from the only one, and what you gain by giving it up in this case can be well worth it in a high-level campaign imo.

(Also - there's action economy and there's action economy. If you spend your turn feared or confused or fascinated for instance, or just plain dead because they got you instead of your astral projection, your action economy has dropped to zero )

I’ll agree that the higher the levels get, the more options a full caster has. By level 20, a straight Sorcerer is probably better in melee (and more powerful otherwise) than a Magus because high level spells are just that good. But over levels 1-20, I don’t believe that a Sorc/DD will consistently outshine a Magus. Ultimately it comes down to preferred playstyle though, because both characters will be very effective if built well.

[Gnaeus]

That's excessive. Come now, if your players know what they're doing then the average combat doesn't last four rounds. If you're playing adventure paths (or any GM taking inspiration from those), then a more reasonable count is 10-12 rounds of combat per day.

If you are playing on easy mode, pretty much anything works. If you have a DM who likes challenging combat and doesn’t cater particularly to caster supremacy, there’s no guarantee 20 will get you there. My level 2 group is past 12 rounds of combat, have just started fight 3, and haven’t seen the expected boss yet (fight 1 was half a dozen gestalt hell hound/blink dogs with a Barbarian boss using some kind of incarna tricks and 2 involved swarms). Exploring an enemy base (a not unlikely scenario) with a timetable means you can’t quit after 1 minute of combat. Really, a 12 round day in most APs means every single bit of this debate is pointless and the only reasonable mechanical argument against either character is that you will floorstomp the monsters so excessively that there’s no point rolling dice.

If you have 4 5-round fights, that doesn’t mean you need to cast 20 spells. My general approach was to nova the first couple rounds of most combats then conserve spell slots once the fight is pretty much decided. Also, bonus spells are a thing (for both classes, obviously) and give you a few extra spell slots to work with. And there are a couple spells, like frostbite, that give you a few rounds worth of touch attacks to deliver with your weapon if you don’t want to cast a spell every round..

My calculations at every point this thread have included one bonus spell/level for both classes. Without that, you don’t get there at 10.

So your general approach is to be a gish for the first couple of rounds every combat and then be a 3/4 bab fighter with less feats. Noted. And the statement about how you can full attack and cast every round is disproven hard.

[TheStranger]

If you are playing on easy mode, pretty much anything works. If you have a DM who likes challenging combat and doesn’t cater particularly to caster supremacy, there’s no guarantee 20 will get you there. My level 2 group is past 12 rounds of combat, have just started fight 3, and haven’t seen the expected boss yet (fight 1 was half a dozen gestalt hell hound/blink dogs with a Barbarian boss using some kind of incarna tricks and 2 involved swarms). Exploring an enemy base (a not unlikely scenario) with a timetable means you can’t quit after 1 minute of combat. Really, a 12 round day in most APs means every single bit of this debate is pointless and the only reasonable mechanical argument against either character is that you will floorstomp the monsters so excessively that there’s no point rolling dice.



My calculations at every point this thread have included one bonus spell/level for both classes. Without that, you don’t get there at 10.

So your general approach is to be a gish for the first couple of rounds every combat and then be a 3/4 bab fighter with less feats. Noted. And the statement about how you can full attack and cast every round is disproven hard.

We’re not playing on easy mode, your table is literally off the charts with difficulty. Assuming a gestalt blink dog/ hellhound is at least the same CR 3 as a hellhound and the Barbarian was level 4 or so, that’s an incredibly challenging combat for 2nd level characters - looks like a CR of 9, which is beyond what a 2nd level party is generally assumed to be facing. If that’s what your group likes, great, but it’s not the norm.

My general approach is to not waste limited resources mopping up in a combat that’s functionally over. I’ve been able to use spell combat as needed throughout the day from mid levels onward.

But honestly, it looks like you’re at such a high-op table that we’re just playing different games. You have your fun, I’ll have mine.

[Gnaeus]

We’re not playing on easy mode, your table is literally off the charts with difficulty..

If your standard is AP difficulty, you are definitely playing on easy mode. They are designed for S&B fighter, Healbot cleric, fireball wizard. No build reasonably discussed on a forum, certainly none discussed here, would have the faintest difficulty. (With rare exceptions. Iron Gods isn’t easy for the entirely unoptimized)

Even then, 10-12 round combat days seem pretty ludicrous to me unless you are regularly one-shotting encounters. All the ones I’ve been in have things like “here’s a house full of ogre encounters” or “explore this island on a timetable before your ship leaves you” or “here’s a giant multi-level dungeon to explore with a missing person to rescue that some party members care a lot about”. Not that they are generally very difficult (after maxing everything’s hp and rebuilding the mobs with better feats). But I don’t see 6-7 combat days as at all unlikely even for entirely unoptimized groups.

[Psyren]

I’ll agree that the higher the levels get, the more options a full caster has. By level 20, a straight Sorcerer is probably better in melee (and more powerful otherwise) than a Magus because high level spells are just that good. But over levels 1-20, I don’t believe that a Sorc/DD will consistently outshine a Magus. Ultimately it comes down to preferred playstyle though, because both characters will be very effective if built well.

I think the gap will start appearing long before 20. Say, 14, when the Sorc/DD (with PrS) gets 7th-level spells. That is the beginning of the "high level" tier, but in a campaign that is going to 20 you can expect to be 14+ long enough for it to matter. This gives you luminaries like Greater Polymorph/Elemental Body IV, Greater Teleport, Spell Turning, and Limited Wish to go along with more uses of the goodies you got last level like Globe of Invulnerability or Greater Dispel Magic, the latter of which the Magus won't get until 18.

[Endarire]

What about respeccing/rebuilding your character midway through the game, like level 12?

[Aletios]

If you are using prestigious spellcaster, you eliminate the levels without caster progression. So the only level you lose is your monk level at level 1.



Eldrich Knight is another lost caster level. That’s pretty huge. And you can’t fix it with prestigious spellcaster unless you want to take favored prestige class again. Never lose any caster level you don’t absolutely have to. You lose 1 for monk, and effectively another because of sorcerer delayed progression.

Comparing DD 5-10 versus eldrich knight 1-6.
DD costs you 2 feats, for prestigious spellcaster at 5(ECL9) and 9 (ECL 15)
You get 20 extra HP. (Better HD and bonus for +2 con)
2 bonus feats
+4/+2/+3 saves (includes bonus for +2 con)
3 extra spells known from advancing Draconic bloodline (Fear, spell resistance, form of the dragon 1)
15 extra skill points (from Int+2)
1d6 energy damage to bite
+1 NA
Permanent blindsense 60
Free dragon form 2/day
Energy resist 10 and 4 more NA (bloodline powers from Draconic bloodline at 9 and 15)
An extra use of breath weapon
Permanent 90 flight as an SU


Eldrich Knight 1-6 costs you the same 2 feats for prestigious spellcaster and favored PRC OR a caster level and 6 additional skill points
2 bonus feats
+3/+2/+2 saves (3 points worse)
2 extra BAB

That looks strictly worse to me

I can live with another CL lost. And DD getting more HP and con sounds great, but not that important, since I do plan to have enough AC to not get hit. Blindsense doesn't look that good at all. Honestly, it actually looks useless.
Dragon form you can get from spells if you want
Plus, I was planning on getting wings from Aasimar's racials. Free wings are nice, but pretty late. While, on other side, wings at lvl 10 looks much more fun.

But I just noticed a flaw in my plan:
Martial proficiency feat gives you proficiency only with 1 weapon, not all of them. Is there a way to get the proficiency without multiclassing into, say, fighter or going for old monk (sohei/Scaled fist) instead of unchained?

[Kitsuneymg]

But I just noticed a flaw in my plan:
Martial proficiency feat gives you proficiency only with 1 weapon, not all of them. Is there a way to get the proficiency without multiclassing into, say, fighter or going for old monk (sohei/Scaled fist) instead of unchained?

Play a Ganzi and select that option for your oddity.