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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    In 5E, I've been bothered by combining bounded accuraccy, with overpowered racial bonusess (typically at will fight) and just hand waving it away as "not adventure legal; DMs can just add it to their campaign". But likewise, while a lvl 1 flying character can just solo some encounters, typically a lvl 20 encounter will have to have an answer for this (as your entire party might be equipped with flight spells, boots of flying, flying carpets, etc ...).

    3/3.5 had something called level adjustment. A kind of multiclass in your race. For example, Drow, who back in the day had unbalanced racial ability scores spell, and a powerful racial ability against magic, had a level adjustment of +2 . A level 3 drow was considered equivalent to a level 5 human. It wasn't a perfect system, but I consider it superior to 5th edition handwaving. After all, in this 5E handwaving, it's considered unbalanced, to just let one of the players start with a +3 magical sword, yet giving that player something akin to the very rare carpet of flying (flight without attument or item slot), that's OK?

    Pondering about this, I think I've come accross a solution. It's just a framework for now, but I'd like to bounce it around to see if I made errors, made things overly complex, it's just a bad idea, etc ...

    Now, it comprises of a number of mechanisms
    (for the example, balance might still be a bit off, but I don't have the books here where I'm writing this, and also consider where we're comming from. I'm not going to argue that it's perfect; only that it seems significantly better)



    1. Give races/abilities/even equiment a level adjustment & rarity

    flight (or a race that is otherwise balanced but with flight; lets say we take Avariel as high elves with flight) has an adjustment of "2, very rare".

    A level 4 human wizard, and a level 2 avarial wizard of a flying race are considered the same level. (one could write this as Wizard 2 / Avarial 2)

    This can also be extended to starting equipment: you could start with a +2 sword, giving you a level adjustment of "2, rare"



    1b. How to play low level characters

    As a level 1 normal person is considered an adult, a character with level adjustment in such party can be considered a young adult (a squire, an apprentice, ...). To make such character, take a level 1 character, but add these penalties, or 'negative levels'

    • Proficiency bonus: -1 per negative level
    • you only get essential abilities, such as
      - armor proficiency (or monk's wisdom to AC),
      - weapon proficiency (or monks ability to use his fists to attack), and cantrips),
      but no other abilities (like fighting style, second wind, level 1 spells, ...)
    • you have one less class or background skill per negative level


    as a level 1 character, our Avarial 2 / wizard 1 with 2 negative levels, would be equivalent to a level 1 wizard, with only cantrips, and lower DCs and attack for said spells. its knowledge of history and nature aren't quite there yet.

    When the player turns level 2 (a.k.a. loses 1 negative level), its proficiency bonus increases by 1, and gets a skill.

    When the players turn level 3 (a.k.a. loses its last negative level), our Avarial 'apprentice' finally turns full fledged wizard, no longer suffering from negative level penalties, and learning real spells.




    2. Story boons

    For all classes, we pick 3 level that are relatively 'dead', and put the "story boon" ability here, with a rarity:
    story boon (uncommon), story boon (rare), story boon (very rare).

    For classes that don't have a level adjustment, at this level, or slighty before, personal quests or general adventuring, or ... should give you an item of that rarity. If you haven't gotten it yet, the DM can use this opportunity to trigger a side quest from your back story. (While you can wonder what this has to do with class, you can look at it as an extention of background)

    This does not have to be an item per se. A fallen paladin could slowly turn more demonic; where instead of a story boon granting him a manual of bodily health, the side quest could fill him with unholy fiendish power and grant him +2 strength instead.

    Classes with level adjustment use story boons to reduce their level penalty in such a way that, at the rarity of their ability, they end up normal. When they achieve a relevant boon, they instantly increase a level. Aside from personal growth, they also get should get a reward with rarity of one less.

    so, a normal character gets
    story boon (uncommon), story boon (rare), story boon (very rare)


    Our fallen paladin gets
    story boon (uncommon), story boon (rare), story boon (+2 strength)


    Our Avarial (2, very rare), needs to have 2 free levels when acchieving 'very rare', so it would get
    story boon (uncommon), story boon (uncommon, level +1), story boon (rare, level +1)

    After the second story boon, our Avarial only has 1 level less then its party members, but also has slightly less magical equiment. After the last story boon, our avarial no longer has a level penalty, but could be considered equivalent with a character who get a flying device as one of his story boons.


    Our hero with a +2 sword (2, rare), would get
    story boon (common, level +1), story boon (uncommon, level +1), story boon (very rare)

    When achieving, what originally was his 'rare' story boon, he's instead now equivalent to a the fighter who only now has gotten his +2 sword.


    Likewise this mechanism allows us to introduce a fith example: unlocking powers or items

    a monk with an ancestral quarterstaff of which he needs to unlock his powers
    story boon (common, unlock quarterstaff+1), story boon (uncommon, unlock quarterstaff+2), story boon (rare, unlock staff of striking)




    2b. Isn't story boons a plain power boost for everyone

    Presuming you don't play a campaign where you don't give magic, not really. Instead of giving 3 magic items as loot per character, you can replace those with the items or powers granted by story boons
    Last edited by qube; 2021-10-19 at 02:48 AM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    not gonna lie, this seems to unnecessarily punish low level play, specifically by taking away toys. then returning those toys at higher levels, when they matter less. sleep is a great spell...at levels 1-3. it loses a TON of strength very rapidly as you level. i don't like it.

    my solution, if a player wants to play a race that has what i consider to be a broken ability. now keep in mind, when i say broken here, im not saying 'so strong that it cannot be overcome'. im referring to abilities that are so unique, that they fundamentally shift the way i need to think about encounter building, and thus limit my options. off the top of my head, the only such ability that currently exists is the flying races. anyway, so if a player wants to play a flying race, then i give them a homebrew that specifically nerfs the 'broken' ability in the early game where it breaks things the most, but then strengthen it later. so like for flight i may do something like
    starting at level 1: you don't take fall damage. (perhaps even with some flavor that implies its a gliding ability, not just a pure feather fals. so they can still use it for limited mobility)
    at level 5: you get a flying speed of 30 feet, but you need to end your turn attached to something or you fall (at lvl 5 the party is barely getting to the point of being able to to cast fly, its not quite at-will, but at this point its on the table regardless)
    at level 9: you get a flying speed of 30 feet (this is jsut baseline feature. but at level 9 its far less of a problem, since now 3rd level spells are relatively cheap anyway. but being able to fly at-will is still powerful)
    at level...idk 13...somewhere higher: your flying speed increases to 60 feet (compensation for nerfing the early game)

    i may monkey with the numbers and levels they appear at, but the general idea is to make the ability more reasonable for the levels that its excessive.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by kazaryu View Post
    not gonna lie, this seems to unnecessarily punish low level play, specifically by taking away toys. then returning those toys at higher levels, when they matter less. sleep is a great spell...at levels 1-3. it loses a TON of strength very rapidly as you level. i don't like it.

    my solution, if a player wants to play a race that has what i consider to be a broken ability. now keep in mind, when i say broken here, im not saying 'so strong that it cannot be overcome'. im referring to abilities that are so unique, that they fundamentally shift the way i need to think about encounter building, and thus limit my options. off the top of my head, the only such ability that currently exists is the flying races. anyway, so if a player wants to play a flying race, then i give them a homebrew that specifically nerfs the 'broken' ability in the early game where it breaks things the most, but then strengthen it later. so like for flight i may do something like
    starting at level 1: you don't take fall damage. (perhaps even with some flavor that implies its a gliding ability, not just a pure feather fals. so they can still use it for limited mobility)
    at level 5: you get a flying speed of 30 feet, but you need to end your turn attached to something or you fall (at lvl 5 the party is barely getting to the point of being able to to cast fly, its not quite at-will, but at this point its on the table regardless)
    at level 9: you get a flying speed of 30 feet (this is jsut baseline feature. but at level 9 its far less of a problem, since now 3rd level spells are relatively cheap anyway. but being able to fly at-will is still powerful)
    at level...idk 13...somewhere higher: your flying speed increases to 60 feet (compensation for nerfing the early game)

    i may monkey with the numbers and levels they appear at, but the general idea is to make the ability more reasonable for the levels that its excessive.
    I really like this as an option for limiting lower level access to a fly speed, without completely nerfing the racial abilities completely. Question: the no fall aspect, how would it interact with a spiked pit? Would the character not take any damage (i.e. able to land softly and avoid the spikes completely), only the take spike damage (couldn't avoid the spikes, but reduced fall speed), take all of the damage (too freaked out by the spikes to be able to reduce their fall speed), or some combination thereof (i.e. wis save to allow the reduction of fall speed in order to avoid part or all of the spiked pit damage)?
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Pointlessly complicated solution for a "problem" that doesn't even really exist. Yes, flying characters can solo some encounters at level 1. So what? Non-flying characters can do that too. A ranged weapon and superior movement speed or sufficient distance does the same thing. Sleep can do it too.

    One flying character isn't an unstoppable monster at low level, it's a target for anyone with a ranged weapon. One that really, really doesn't want to be knocked unconscious.

    If you're too afraid of your players picking a flying race, instead of punishing them, ban the race outright.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by kazaryu View Post
    not gonna lie, this seems to unnecessarily punish low level play, specifically by taking away toys.
    Perhaps, but they do get other toys.

    If we look at a high elf and a winged high elf in the party, I'm not sure it would be unfair, as the latter gets to fly, that the former gets to be better at something else.

    Oppositely, once the high elf gets access to fight, the two should once again become equivalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by kazaryu View Post
    i may monkey with the numbers and levels they appear at, but the general idea is to make the ability more reasonable for the levels that its excessive.
    it's indeed a potential route (in fact, it reminds me of the fallen paladin example who gradually becomes more demonic), though sometimes people do want their racial abilities from the start. Especially in campaigns that might only take a level of 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Pointlessly complicated solution for a "problem" that doesn't even really exist. Yes, flying characters can solo some encounters at level 1. So what? Non-flying characters can do that too. A ranged weapon and superior movement speed or sufficient distance does the same thing. Sleep can do it too.

    One flying character isn't an unstoppable monster at low level, it's a target for anyone with a ranged weapon. One that really, really doesn't want to be knocked unconscious.
    I respectfully disagree.

    All the arguments you make for fly are true - but they are not the standard races are judged by. Consider that your argument simelary works if, for instance, we give dragonborn an additional +4 on strength. That also doesn't make then an "unstobbable monster" (it doesn't even affect hp or AC), and doesn't take away the ability for a sleep spell to turn the tide of an encounter, and carelessly jumping into melee is still inviting to be surrounded and killed ...

    Yet, it would be an objectively bad design if WotC gave us such a race.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    Perhaps, but they do get other toys.

    If we look at a high elf and a winged high elf in the party, I'm not sure it would be unfair, as the latter gets to fly, that the former gets to be better at something else.

    Oppositely, once the high elf gets access to fight, the two should once again become equivalent.

    it's indeed a potential route (in fact, it reminds me of the fallen paladin example who gradually becomes more demonic), though sometimes people do want their racial abilities from the start. Especially in campaigns that might only take a level of 5.
    the difference is, onc solution only alters the problematic ability, the other is exponentially more complicated and thus harder to balance. and no, you're not taking away a toy and giving htem others at low level. you're literally just hard nerfing them with the level adjustment. why do i care that i can fly as the wizard if i can't also cast my spells. at that point im not a wizard...im a bird that knows a cantrip or 2. don't get me wrong, in general im a fan of the 'buff where possible rather than nerfing' approach. but when it comes to a specific few abilities being problematic, its much much simpler to nerf them, especially with this style of problematic.

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Level adjustment is a really bad idea. I cut my teeth on 3.5 and am quite familiar with those wretched rules. They were just a weaselly way for the game designers to have their cake and eat it too. They were there to punish you for trying to play outside their little box by making life difficult for players and gms that wanted to play or populate their worlds with some of DnD's more exotic peoples. They deserve to stay dead and buried in a public toilet in a high traffic area where the subways let off after a long ride.

    5e offers better ways to do this sort of things. Tieflings for example, get some of their racial spells at later levels (3rd and 5th). If the flying races feel like they're too much, just push flying to 5th level, were the spellcasters would get it anyway.

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    Perhaps, but they do get other toys.

    If we look at a high elf and a winged high elf in the party, I'm not sure it would be unfair, as the latter gets to fly, that the former gets to be better at something else.
    Avariel aren't an official printed subrace for elves, and the UA version isn't a high elf:

    https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/d...lfSubraces.pdf

    Avariel get
    Flight. You have a flying speed of 30 feet. To
    use this speed, you can’t be wearing medium or
    heavy armor.
    Languages. You can speak, read, and write
    Auran.
    High elves get:
    Ability Score Increase. Your Intelligence score increases by 1.
    Cantrip. You know one cantrip of your choice from the Wizard spell list. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for it.
    Elf Weapon Training. You have proficiency with the longsword, shortsword, shortbow, and longbow.
    Extra Language. You can read, speak, and write one additional language of your choice.
    So, yes, high elves do get to be better at something else: +1 Int, a cantrip, 4 weapon proficiencies, and a flexible language option. With Tasha's options in play, this becomes even more potent of course, since the +Int becomes a floating +1 and the weapon profs can be traded out for tools.

    Is a High Elf better than an Avariel? That will probably depend a lot on your a) your build and b) the campaign (if you're dungeoncrawling, will flight be that useful? If you're fighting a lot of archers, will flight be that useful?)
    Last edited by Amnestic; 2021-10-19 at 11:45 AM.
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Personally I hate level adjustment. I'm not even much of a fan for racial abilities that come online at higher levels. If an aarakocra only gains flight at level 5, then it sort of implies that all NPC aarakocra that are flying around are level 5 as well.

    If the ability is problematic for you to handle as the DM ask for advice on how to adjust for it. And keep in mind adjusting for it includes allowing it to shine at times.

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Pointlessly complicated solution for a "problem" that doesn't even really exist. Yes, flying characters can solo some encounters at level 1. So what? Non-flying characters can do that too. A ranged weapon and superior movement speed or sufficient distance does the same thing. Sleep can do it too.

    One flying character isn't an unstoppable monster at low level, it's a target for anyone with a ranged weapon. One that really, really doesn't want to be knocked unconscious.

    If you're too afraid of your players picking a flying race, instead of punishing them, ban the race outright.
    Right. Plus, levels 1-3 go by real darn fast and most people don't even have most of their kit yet.
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Out of curiosity, what challenges does flight allow you to overcome at first level that makes it so op anyways? There's a pit you have to cross. You fly over. The rest of the party have to figure out a makeshift bridge, made easier by you being on the other side. There's a cliff that needs to be climbed. You fly up it. The rest of the part climbs up, per usual. I don't see the major deal here.

    Secondary question: since your original statement was that some things are just too powerful, and your only example has been flight... what other abilities would you place on this list, and what level adjustment would you give them? For instance, yuan-ti are immune to poison. Is that powerful enough for you to consider them op and deserving of a level adjustment? Goliath's get a higher carrying capacity, I think...
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    <snip>

    Secondary question: since your original statement was that some things are just too powerful, and your only example has been flight... what other abilities would you place on this list, and what level adjustment would you give them? For instance, yuan-ti are immune to poison. Is that powerful enough for you to consider them op and deserving of a level adjustment? Goliath's get a higher carrying capacity, I think...
    Archery fighting style on a Dex fighter just wrecks low-level encounters. I learned to add 25%-50% mooks to any fight just to make the fight feel CR-appropriate.

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by JonBeowulf View Post
    Archery fighting style on a Dex fighter just wrecks low-level encounters. I learned to add 25%-50% mooks to any fight just to make the fight feel CR-appropriate.
    Why? Are the enemies not equipped with ranged weapons as well? Are there no support mages on the enemy side launching ranged cantrips, at the very least?

    Edit: Also, I don't understand what a fighting style has to do with a question about racial abilities.
    Last edited by The_Jette; 2021-10-19 at 11:23 PM.
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Absolutely don't introduce level adjustment. Characters with LA sucked in 3.5, and they will do the same in 5e- you might as well ban the races straight away.

    Nerfing the strong part and making it better as one grows like someone else suggested is a much more elegant and functional solution- otherwise just plan your encounters around that. Give ranged weapons, use spellcasters, etc.- it's not great to be flying while the other party has Sleep, for example (at low level).

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Avariel aren't an official printed subrace for elves, and the UA version isn't a high elf:
    Do note I stated "lets say we take Avariel as high elves with flight". When I mention Avariel in my post, I don't mean the UA version - but a winged high elf.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    Out of curiosity, what challenges does flight allow you to overcome at first level that makes it so op anyways?
    Firstly, do note, as pointed out before, that's not the criteria used to consider game balance for races.

    what challenges does an additional +4 Strength allow you to overcome at first level that makes it so op anyways? None, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to just slap an extra +4 Strength on a race, right?

    To answer your question, animal encounters would be a simple example. (Don't tell me, you've never been attacked by a pack of wolves?). Likewise zombies also don't carry ranged weapons.

    Some monsters don't carry ranged weapons by default (cultists, tribal warriors, ...), and some monsters rely on short (or too-short) range weapons/spells for ranged capability (especially if your character starts flying with a longbow).

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    Secondary question: since your original statement was that some things are just too powerful, and your only example has been flight... what other abilities would you place on this list, and what level adjustment would you give them?
    Unbalanced stats would be another example. Large size as well (not Goliath/Firbolg kind, but the kind that allows you to wield larger weapons, maybe even have reach).

    An argument could be made that an additional +2 on your stat (allowing for +1 attack, damage, DC, and skills), could be considered about equivalent of a level. After all, on certain levels, the only you get, is an ASI), until you reach a level were other players could get access to a book.
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    Do note I stated "lets say we take Avariel as high elves with flight". When I mention Avariel in my post, I don't mean the UA version - but a winged high elf.
    Yes, if you randomly give a character wings on top of their other racial stuff with no cost (such as a feat) then characters who don't get those wings should probably get something in return.

    LA is not the way to do it in 5e, and probably wasn't the way to do it in 3.5e either.
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Don't use Level Adjustement. It doesn't work.

    You can try using a "Heritage Class". Ie, imagine a 2 level "class" that is "flying humanoid". Do all the work, and design it to work well with multiclassing.

    It should have HD, saves, abilities for use in combat, etc. It can have subclasses, like "arcane caster", "divine caster", "sneak" for ease of merging into an existing class and carry the combat mechanics.

    Then if you want a player to be a Level 2 flying humanoid level 1 wizard, just do that. They don't have a 2 level adjustment; they just are multiclassed.

    If you want to play that character with a level 1 PC, well, don't? Or just admit they are more powerful? Your ad-hoc "negative proficiency" is mechanically complex and really don't balance much at all. It will be nearly impossible for it to be at a reasonable balance point, and all of that work is for what, 1 or 2 sessions while the PCs level up to level 3? Just start everyone at level 3.

    Now even this isn't easy. Try making a "flying humanoid" 2 level class that is balanced to be multiclassed into a pile of classes. But at least it has some possibility of being balanced.

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    To answer your question, animal encounters would be a simple example. (Don't tell me, you've never been attacked by a pack of wolves?). Likewise zombies also don't carry ranged weapons.

    Some monsters don't carry ranged weapons by default (cultists, tribal warriors, ...), and some monsters rely on short (or too-short) range weapons/spells for ranged capability (especially if your character starts flying with a longbow).
    Wouldn't this only be a problem if the entire party had flight? If the party gets attacked by a pack of wolves and one PC takes to the air all that does is mean the wolves will focus their attacks on a different PC which given they have pack tactics is what they should probably be doing anyways. All flight does here is change who gets focused fired on from a DM decision to a player decision. That doesn't seem game/encounter breaking.
    Last edited by Sorinth; 2021-10-20 at 10:17 AM.

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    I will keep my reply simple as it looks like others are going into the details:

    I would not play this set of rules options and feel it adds a level of complexity that is unnecessary to the game. For as small an amount of time characters are levels 1-3 the fix seems like it really woudl nto do much.

    But I will continue to read the thread in case something special does pop up.
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    In general hyper-defensive options like a flying archer tend to be less impactful than expected because even if the enemy can't target you they can still target your teammates. Hypothetically of course, a moon druid or a flying archer might be able to solo an encounter and the table as a whole might be playing "suboptimally" by not letting them do so, but in practice the number of encounters where something like a flying archer has the chance to solo is pretty small. It's pretty much just "field encounters" and "dungeon encounters in very large rooms where the monsters don't have ranged attacks and can't leave the room and there's no time pressure."

    And field encounters that can be trivialized by fliers also tend to get trivialized by things like "having a bow and a horse"

    flying builds are imo a lot worse in this way than something like a moon druid, which when fighting alongside the party will actually tank hits for their friends and will be able to solo encounters more consistently.
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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    LA is a failed attempt at doing something like point buy for races, mixing it with classes and dear god would you just take the wretched thing behind the barn and shoot it?

    Stagger the progression of things that come online too early and ban the rest. No need for narrow number gymnastics.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by dafrca View Post
    For as small an amount of time characters are levels 1-3 the fix seems like it really woudl nto do much.
    Do note that this is only part of the rules. The fallen paladin & monk example have no effect on level 1 - 3 , while the flying eladrin example effects the character until such a point where at will flight is acceptable loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    Yes, if you randomly give a character wings on top of their other racial stuff with no cost (such as a feat) then characters who don't get those wings should probably get something in return.
    do note the winged tiefling.

    Winged: You have a flying speed of 30 feet while you aren’t wearing heavy armor. This trait replaces the Infernal Legacy trait.

    Infernal Legacy. You know the Thaumaturgy cantrip.
    3rd level: you can cast the Hellish Rebuke spell once as a 2nd-level spell. (1/long rest)
    5th level: you can also cast the Darkness spell once. (1/long rest)

    While it's not "no cost" ...
    lvl 1 & 2 : It's frankly impossible to argue Thaumaturgy is equivalent to flight
    lvl 3 & 4 : it's extremly hard to argue 1/day Hellish Rebuke is equivalent to flight at will.
    And I might be missing something, but even at lvl 5+ I don't see it either.

    And neither did WotC - making races that they note are prohibitted in Adventure Legue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    All flight does here is change who gets focused fired on from a DM decision to a player decision. That doesn't seem game/encounter breaking.
    It makes it impossible for the wolves to target the PC - making him, for this encounter, in effect, unbeatable.

    Is that encounter breaking? Maybe, maybe not. But this is still a different goalpost.

    Your goalpost also isn't met if you give a character a +4 STR, or double a character's hp, ... all those things won't "break the encounter" yet are obviously overpowered abilities for races.
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    Do note I stated "lets say we take Avariel as high elves with flight". When I mention Avariel in my post, I don't mean the UA version - but a winged high elf.

    Firstly, do note, as pointed out before, that's not the criteria used to consider game balance for races.

    what challenges does an additional +4 Strength allow you to overcome at first level that makes it so op anyways? None, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to just slap an extra +4 Strength on a race, right?

    To answer your question, animal encounters would be a simple example. (Don't tell me, you've never been attacked by a pack of wolves?). Likewise zombies also don't carry ranged weapons.

    Some monsters don't carry ranged weapons by default (cultists, tribal warriors, ...), and some monsters rely on short (or too-short) range weapons/spells for ranged capability (especially if your character starts flying with a longbow).

    Unbalanced stats would be another example. Large size as well (not Goliath/Firbolg kind, but the kind that allows you to wield larger weapons, maybe even have reach).

    An argument could be made that an additional +2 on your stat (allowing for +1 attack, damage, DC, and skills), could be considered about equivalent of a level. After all, on certain levels, the only you get, is an ASI), until you reach a level were other players could get access to a book.
    There are plenty of abilities that can be described exactly the same way as you're describing flight that aren't considered OP and deserving of LA, according to your post. What about darkvision? That's an ability that can be given by a magic item. Sure, there are monsters that can also see in the dark. But, most bandits that low level parties are going to be fighting can't see in the dark. If you can see in the dark and you're fighting bandits at night, you can kite them all night without them being able to touch you. In that instance, you're effectively unbeatable. Sure, your other party members who don't have darkvision have to get close enough that they can be seen by the bandit's torches, but you are untouchable.

    You see what I'm saying here. I don't understand why you think flight specifically is worth hamstringing your characters to get around. If you genuinely dislike it that much, instead of punishing players who want it, why not just disallow it to begin with?
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    There are plenty of abilities that can be described exactly the same way as you're describing flight that aren't considered OP and deserving of LA
    Maybe. (though your darkness analogy fails. Both an elf archer and human archer can shoot the torch carrying bandits - you don't need darkvision to shoot into lit areas.)

    Do note I was responding to your question

    Out of curiosity, what challenges does flight allow you to overcome at first level that makes it so op anyways?

    And the first thing I noted was

    Firstly, do note, as pointed out before, that's not the criteria used to consider game balance for races.

    I mean, I could invent an encounter that only the tinker ability of the rock gnome could solve - It still does not make this the criteria to balance races.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    You see what I'm saying here. I don't understand why you think flight specifically is worth hamstringing your characters to get around.
    You mean, why I use flight as one of my examples?

    Because the jury is in wether or not flight is overpowered.

    It's no secret that Aarakocra (Elemental Evil Player’s Companion) and Winged Tiefling (Sword Coast Adventurers Guide) aren't legal for AL because of it.
    Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing

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    Actually, "(e-1)/e for a limit to infinitiy", but, it's a good rule of thumb

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    It's no secret that Aarakocra (Elemental Evil Player’s Companion) and Winged Tiefling (Sword Coast Adventurers Guide) aren't legal for AL because of it.
    Disagree. The ban from AL isn't about power at all--they let way more broken stuff in all the time. No, it's about DM control when the DM can't deviate from the script. Flying, in the context of a printed module that can't be deviated from causes issues with sequence breaking and needing substantial judgement calls. And would do so even if it weren't powerful at all.

    And combat in AL is nothing like balanced--AL is where the scourge of hyper-combat-optimized characters[1] comes from, after all. The differences between a noob with his first character and that AL-stalwart with his grandfathered-in items, his knowledge of the campaign and the rules, and his hyper-optimized character is way bigger than flying ever would be.

    [1] because AL doesn't have a strong ability to do anything but combat because of the format and the ever-shifting parties, as well as the constraints on the DM. Nothing else you do can have an influence--either you check the box and progress or you stop. There's little you can do to manipulate any other dials. So people come for the combat and optimize around that.
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Disagree. The ban from AL isn't about power at all--they let way more broken stuff in all the time. No, it's about DM control when the DM can't deviate from the script. Flying, in the context of a printed module that can't be deviated from causes issues with sequence breaking and needing substantial judgement calls. And would do so even if it weren't powerful at all.

    And combat in AL is nothing like balanced--AL is where the scourge of hyper-combat-optimized characters[1] comes from, after all. The differences between a noob with his first character and that AL-stalwart with his grandfathered-in items, his knowledge of the campaign and the rules, and his hyper-optimized character is way bigger than flying ever would be.

    [1] because AL doesn't have a strong ability to do anything but combat because of the format and the ever-shifting parties, as well as the constraints on the DM. Nothing else you do can have an influence--either you check the box and progress or you stop. There's little you can do to manipulate any other dials. So people come for the combat and optimize around that.
    Hate to say it, but this is true. Combat balance is a secondary concern (at best) and that goes for the whole D&D franchise, not just AL. They're more concerned about the experience of play at the table, since that's basically the "core gameplay loop", not the evenness of power between PCs. I mean, take a high-op character and a low-op character, put them in the party together, and you have a massive power imbalance, no matter what races they picked. The biggest problem with Tasha's Cauldron of Everything isn't that it contains broken subclasses—it's that taken as a whole, it arguably doesn't increase the total number of character options within a standard "power range". In other words, WotC risked invalidating old content and now they're backtracking.

    Flight never invalidated old character options. What you should really ask is "will this racial ability wreck the scenarios I have planned?" Honestly, trying to "balance" a racial ability like that is ultimately pointless. You've got much bigger fish to fry. Flight is really strong in a very hard-to-evaluate manner, and while I suppose you could use this magic-item-equivalence thing as a way to characterize its power, I certainly don't think racial levels is the right way to adjust (if any way exists).

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    Maybe. (though your darkness analogy fails. Both an elf archer and human archer can shoot the torch carrying bandits - you don't need darkvision to shoot into lit areas.)

    Do note I was responding to your question

    Out of curiosity, what challenges does flight allow you to overcome at first level that makes it so op anyways?

    And the first thing I noted was

    Firstly, do note, as pointed out before, that's not the criteria used to consider game balance for races.

    I mean, I could invent an encounter that only the tinker ability of the rock gnome could solve - It still does not make this the criteria to balance races.

    You mean, why I use flight as one of my examples?

    Because the jury is in wether or not flight is overpowered.

    It's no secret that Aarakocra (Elemental Evil Player’s Companion) and Winged Tiefling (Sword Coast Adventurers Guide) aren't legal for AL because of it.
    My main question is still unanswered, though. Other than flight, what abilities are overpowered? Because this whole level adjustment exercise seems entirely contrived around trying to balance out characters with a fly speed, and nothing else. But, your opening statement was that character races with powerful abilities should be given level adjustments to balance the strength of these powerful abilities with other characters who don't have said abilities. So far the only thing you've talked about is a fly speed. So, if this is all only about a fly speed, and there are in fact no other strong abilities deserving of a level adjustment, then why not just ban racial flight at your table instead of making a convoluted level adjustment system?
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: level adjustment, story boons and ancestral magic items

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    1. Give races/abilities/even equiment a level adjustment & rarity
    If the only real problem is flight, then you are likely overcomplicating things. If you wanna start assigning "power levels" to the races, like flight = +2, Magic Resistance = +1,etc. its gonna be a lot of work, and the returns may not be worth the effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    2. Story boons
    I like those, and make regular use of them (I don't think I've ever DMed a campaign without any kind of story boon), however, structuring them by levels is, at least to me, completely anathema to what they are. Story boons should flow naturally from how the story is unfoding, if the story has to accomodate itself to when the Characters reach a certain level, then the illusion of choice suffers a massive hit. "No matter what at level X I'll get my story boon." That's not a story boon anymore its just a general buff to all PCs, not very different from deciding to give everyone a feat at 6 and 10. It perfectly fine, and lvl 1 feat is very common (my table uses it about half the time), but thats not a "story" boon.

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    2b. Isn't story boons a plain power boost for everyone

    Presuming you don't play a campaign where you don't give magic, not really. Instead of giving 3 magic items as loot per character, you can replace those with the items or powers granted by story boons
    The power boost for all the party is only a problem for specific storys and themes that may end up too far below the PCs paygrade for them to make any sense, or for some settings whose theme may get wrecked by high power characters. For a campaign in general though, you could give every PC +10 to all stats, it doesn't matter, the encounters will always be balanced because the DM makes the encounters for his or her party. In 3e I gave a lvl 4 PC Wish at will, with a cost of only 300 xp per cast (instead of the usual 5k xp). The encounter balance was never a problem.

    What is a problem though, is the structurization of the narrative parts of the game, which leads, in most cases, to a railroading effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Disagree. The ban from AL isn't about power at all--they let way more broken stuff in all the time. No, it's about DM control when the DM can't deviate from the script. Flying, in the context of a printed module that can't be deviated from causes issues with sequence breaking and needing substantial judgement calls. And would do so even if it weren't powerful at all.
    The point here is, what does "power" mean? IMO, a character with more options outside of combat is more powerful than a better combatant because the game is about player choice, so getting more toys to play with makes a character more powerful than a +1 to hit and damage.

    Making the DM have to do judgement calls more often, or change stuff on the go means the character has greater influence in the unfolding of the adventure, and is thus more powerful, since after all, the PCs winning the encounter is the default assumption and is what happens at least 80% of the time. So getting better at killing things rarely changes the adventure.
    Last edited by Rukelnikov; 2021-10-25 at 09:43 AM.

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