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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Skill Tricks for Martials

    IMO, Noncasters could use more options . Lets give them some! I am a fan of skill checks from 3.5 but obviously they don't make sense in a 5e paradigm unaltered, but here's how I think a system inspired by them could work.

    Spoiler: general thoughts
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    The first issue is that the Monster Manual is designed under the assumption that athletics/acrobatics and stealth/perception/sleight of hand are going to be the only relevant opposed checks, and so if suddenly Insight is a key means of defending against some kind of really powerful skill trick or something, well. Adult Red Dragons are straight out of luck. But if you're careful you can avoid doing anything too insane.

    The second issue question is how to put them in the game as an option. There are frankly infinite options here, but for the sake of simplicity, why not simply give them to martials at certain levels? Something like " You may select two skill tricks at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th level" added to the barbarian/rogue/fighter/monk class. I could see there being an argument that in order to free up design space these 'tricks' should be treated as ACFs instead of free features, but I started with this idea for now.

    Regardless, I think we should know well enough by now that picking from the same list over and over again makes for dull options at level-up because functionally you're picking options that weren't exciting enough last time.

    Finally, there's the question of what these abilities are supposed to be used for. What I would like to avoid at all costs are abilities that are always useful in combat and part of a stable "loop," something that can be used every turn.

    With all that out of the way I'd like to propose a few ideas and I hope others will jump in as well.


    Skill Tricks:You may select two skill tricks at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th level.

    • Back on your Feet [level 4, acrobatics] If you fall prone, you can stand up without expending movement.
    • Resourceful Thief [level 4, thieves tools] You can disable traps and unlock doors without requiring thieve's tools.
    • Healing Hands [level 4, medicine] If you stabilize a dying creature with a healers kit you can also heal them for 1d8 hit points]
    • Expert Appraisal[level 4, arcana] you can spend 1 minute interacting with an item to learn its properties as if you had cast identify.
    • No Chains For Me[level 4, acrobatics or athletics] When you would normally be able to make an action to attempt to escape being restrained or to escape a grapple, you can do so as a bonus action and you have advantage on the check
    • Calming Presence [level 4, handle animal] As an action, you make a handle animal check opposed by the a beast's insight. If the beast fails, it is charmed by you for an hour.
    • Clarity of Vision [level 8, perception] As a bonus action, you focus your attention on a creature you cannot see but know the location of. Until the end of your next turn,
    • Combat Patrol [level 8, acrobatics or athletics] As a bonus action, you adopt a stance that allows you to threaten a wide area on the battlefield. From the end of your current turn until the start of your next turn, your reach increases by 5 feet.
    • Make an Example [level 8, intimidate] When you reduce an enemy to zero hit points, you can make attempt to frighten another enemy within ten feet of you as a bonus action. They must roll a wisdom save against your charisma(intimidation) check result or be frightened of you for one minute.
    • Piledriver [level 8, athletics] As an action, you can slam a grappled enemy into the ground. This make them prone and deals bludgeoning damage to them equal to 1d8 per character level. You can also wield a grappled opponent as an improvised greatclub. Any damage you deal with this improvised greatclub is also dealt to the grappled creature.
    • Mosquito's Bite [level 12, sleight of hand] As an action, make a sleight of hand check while holding a finesse weapon, opposed by the passive perception of the target. If you fail this check, nothing happens. If you succeed, you may make an attack with advantage against the target with your finesse weapon, and the target will not notice any damage they have taken until an hour later.
    • Dauntless [level 12, insight] When you would otherwise become frightened as a result of failing a saving throw, you can expend a hit dice as a reaction and add the result of your hit dice to the saving throw, potentially turning it from a failure to a success.


    I'd ultimately like a few 16th level tricks as well as more tricks for skills that haven't yet been covered like survival or nature but I do think this is a fun list of enumerated powers.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2021-10-19 at 03:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    This is an idea I can get behind, though I would suggest some things:

    - Instead of gaining X skill tricks at Y level, I propose one skill proficiency is tradable for 2 skill tricks whenever you would acquire a skill proficiency after level 1 (in certain classes if you wish it to be limited). From the dev side this gives us a baseline of how good/strong any given trick should be and stops power creep/subsystem fatigue by taking advantage of existing mechanics, and on the play side gives much more reason to pick up feats like Skilled and get more excited about features like Primal Knowledge, Arcane Archer Lore and Survivalist.
    A possible complication to this would be anyone MCing into Rogue could pick up 2 skill tricks immediately on top of the usual benefits (which is already a very strong MC option)

    - I assume to qualify for a skill trick you first need proficiency in that skill, but I don't think that was explicitly stated

    - Instead of level requirements gate by proficiency bonus, and allow skill tricks to be exchanged when you level up. Just because I feel this better fits the current (post-Tasha's) design trends

    - Rule of thumb is that skill tricks shouldn't use their own actions, bonus actions and maybe not even reactions. Everything a martial chooses (the classes you have designated) will pretty much always be compared against their attack action or whatever bonus action/reaction their class/subclass/feat choices make available to them, so skill tricks that don't tie into those will face strong competition

    - To make things as interesting as possible for using these we want these to not trigger by passive actions, eg landing a crit, but rather by a decision on the player's part. The above makes this harder but I think you already have a good example with the Medicine Healing Hands trick

    - Skill tricks should scale where possible so as soon as the big jumps at levels 5, 11 and 17 happen they aren't immediately phased out
    Last edited by Kane0; 2021-10-20 at 04:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    This is an idea I can get behind, though I would suggest some things:
    that's what we're here for!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Instead of gaining X skill tricks at Y level, I propose one skill proficiency is tradable for 2 skill tricks whenever you would acquire a skill proficiency after level 1 (in certain classes if you wish it to be limited). From the dev side this gives us a baseline of how good/strong any given trick should be and stops power creep/subsystem fatigue by taking advantage of existing mechanics, and on the play side gives much more reason to pick up feats like Skilled and get more excited about features like Primal Knowledge, Arcane Archer Lore and Survivalist.
    I also don't really want to try to balance around 2 tricks = 1 skill prof, since a skill prof is not generally worth that much. As one example of how this ends up working out, you'd get six tricks for skilled, which moves that feat from "sorta bad" to "compulsory." I don't want to tone things down to that level of balance, especially the higher tier abilities.

    My feeling is basically that martials are a bit weaker overall especially at high tiers and that balance has always been very fuzzy because this is a team game, so its fine to freely give out abilities that are mostly situational/OOC to them, as long as these abilities are balanced with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - I assume to qualify for a skill trick you first need proficiency in that skill, but I don't think that was explicitly stated
    yes, I will add that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Instead of level requirements gate by proficiency bonus, and allow skill tricks to be exchanged when you level up. Just because I feel this better fits the current (post-Tasha's) design trends
    That does work, and arguably makes multiclassing into fighter (rather than just dipping) a lot more practical. You're a 8th level wizard, 3rd level battlemaster, but next level you can grab Dauntless and that seems cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Rule of thumb is that skill tricks shouldn't use their own actions, bonus actions and maybe not even reactions. Everything a martial chooses (the classes you have designated) will pretty much always be compared against their attack action or whatever bonus action/reaction their class/subclass/feat choices make available to them, so skill tricks that don't tie into those will face strong competition
    That's by design.

    I really don't want skill tricks to ever get into the situation where you're just spamming piledriver every turn, that's lame. Rather, I'd want piledriver to be a more situational thing. The damage is good, but by the time you get it most targets you can piledrive aren't worth using it on. But then you're a rune knight and you have haste cast on you and suddenly you're grabbing giants and then suplexing them twice.

    Ultimately the system needs some constraints and you're left with either resource economy (didn't want to add another resource to these classes) or action economy.

    Though something like stabilizing an ally with a healer's kit is already situational so that can just be strictly improved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - To make things as interesting as possible for using these we want these to not trigger by passive actions, eg landing a crit, but rather by a decision on the player's part. The above makes this harder but I think you already have a good example with the Medicine Healing Hands trick
    I did try to do this, the only counterexample is dauntless.

    which I really like but I suppose you are supposed to kill your darlings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Skill tricks should scale where possible so as soon as the big jumps at levels 5, 11 and 17 happen they aren't immediately phased out
    True. For one example healing hands should definitely scale.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I also don't really want to try to balance around 2 tricks = 1 skill prof, since a skill prof is not generally worth that much. As one example of how this ends up working out, you'd get six tricks for skilled, which moves that feat from "sorta bad" to "compulsory." I don't want to tone things down to that level of balance, especially the higher tier abilities.

    My feeling is basically that martials are a bit weaker overall especially at high tiers and that balance has always been very fuzzy because this is a team game, so its fine to freely give out abilities that are mostly situational/OOC to them, as long as these abilities are balanced with each other.
    They don't have to strictly be as weak as half a skill prof (so about a language or tool), I would argue they be about as strong as Expertise (makes you considerably better within a restricted niche you have already committed to). Which would equate to roughly one bullet of your typical 3-part feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    That's by design.

    I really don't want skill tricks to ever get into the situation where you're just spamming piledriver every turn, that's lame. Rather, I'd want piledriver to be a more situational thing. The damage is good, but by the time you get it most targets you can piledrive aren't worth using it on. But then you're a rune knight and you have haste cast on you and suddenly you're grabbing giants and then suplexing them twice.

    Ultimately the system needs some constraints and you're left with either resource economy (didn't want to add another resource to these classes) or action economy.

    Though something like stabilizing an ally with a healer's kit is already situational so that can just be strictly improved.
    Agreed, we don't want the tricks to just add onto the typical routine and become just as boring as 'I attack', which is presumably what this is all to combat in the first place. Oh, movement is a possible avenue we can use as a resource substitute as well.

    Situational is good, I think enhancing actions that typically aren't competitive with 'Attack' such as Search, Dash, Use Item and Help are a good start. There is also extra synergy if you can take those actions using something like Cunning Action, Haste or Action Surge.


    So to propose some tweaks and additions:
    Acrobatics:
    +2: Standing from Prone doesn't cost you extra movement
    +2: On your turn you can use 15' of your movement to increase your reach by 5' until the end of your turn
    +3: Attempting to escape from grapples and effects that cause you to be Restrained use your Bonus Action instead of your Action
    +4:

    Athletics:
    +2: Your shoves can push a creature up to 10', and if they cannot move the full distance because of running into another creature or surface they take damage equal to your Athletics roll (categorized like fall damage so isn't subject to bludgeoning resistance). 15' at Prof bonus +4, 20' at Prof +6
    +2: Your movement speed is not halved for carrying a grappled creature. At prof +4 it isn't halved when dragging either.
    +3: Jumping only expends half the amount of movement of the distance you travel
    +5: You can attempt to bend and break Force effects such as the bars of a Forcecage by making an Athletics check against the Caster's Spell DC.

    Arcana
    +2: By spending a short rest with an item you can identify it as per the Identify spell
    +3: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to instead attempt to disrupt a spellcaster. They must make a concentration saving throw against your Arcana check as the DC.
    +4: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to instead attempt to hamper a creature's magic resistance. If you succeed on an Arcana check against the creature's spell DC any advantage on saving throws or damage resistance against spells are negated until the start of your next turn.

    Medicine:
    +2: When you expend a use of a Healers Kit on a creature that creature also regains HP equal to your Medicine bonus (stat + prof)
    +2: You can attempt to use a Healers Kit on a creature to poison them, forcing them to make a Constitution saving throw against your Medicine check or be Poisoned for 1 minute. Cant retry on creatures that make the save.

    Perception:
    +3: When you take the Search action one creature you can see cannot become hidden from you until the end of your next turn.

    Insight:
    +3: You are always aware of when you are Charmed or having your thoughts read, or otherwise being mentally influenced.

    Intimidation:
    +2: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to cow a creature that can see and hear you, forcing it to make a Wisdom saving throw against your Intimidate check or be Frightened of you until the start of your next turn
    +3: Successfully Intimidating a creature renders you immune to the Frightened condition for 1 minute

    And so on.

    How many skill tricks to aim for? I think 6 for each skill, with 2 to start with at the +2 prof bonus stage but it could be hard to put that together.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    I'd maybe allow one skill trick at each level they get an ASI, instead of costing a proficiency. Of 2 at 4th and then let them get +1 and swap one out at each following ASI they get from a martial class. You can probably hand it to martials without issue, especially if some of these have noncombat benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Expert Appraisal[level 4, arcana] you can spend 1 minute interacting with an item to learn its properties as if you had cast identify.
    I would push this one back quite a bit. This seems to be one of the main risks with magical weapons, and can ruin some surprise (ex: as DM I can inform the party the javelin they found says "astrapí" on it, but they don't learn it is a javelin of lightning until later, hopefully when one gets suspicious and tries the word). I'd say that by 12th level they have enough magic items to justify this, but probably not sooner. Of course, this does depend on DM fiat for how easy it is to paid for identity and/or get the 100gp pearl. Combat Patrol might be a bit low level as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Clarity of Vision [level 8, perception] As a bonus action, you focus your attention on a creature you cannot see but know the location of. Until the end of your next turn,
    They don't get advantage for attacking you while hidden, I assume, but I don't see it written.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I'd ultimately like a few 16th level tricks as well as more tricks for skills that haven't yet been covered like survival or nature but I do think this is a fun list of enumerated powers.
    Off the top of my head:

    • Feint [4th level, deception] Once per turn, when you take the attack action, you can make a Deception check contested by the Insight check of the creature you are attacking. This must be done before making the attack roll. On a success, you deal an additional 1d4 damage with the attack.
    • Escape the Advantage [12th level, deception] Once per turn, when you make an attack roll with advantage, you can expend 5 feet of movement to move away from the target of your attack. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from the target of your attack.
    • Master Sneak [16th level, stealth] When you are hidden and make a melee weapon attack, you gain advantage on the next attack roll you make against the same creature before the start of your next turn or until you are no longer obscured to the target of your attack.
    • Natural Guard [8th level, survival] Whenever you are lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena you also gain half cover, even if the phenomena isn't solid.
    • Taste of Nature [4th level, nature or survival] Whenever you would ingest poison, you can make a Perception check to smell or taste the poison and avoid ingesting it.
    • Tactical Study [4th level, history] As a bonus action, you can make a History check against a creature you are fighting, to recall the historical tactics of such creatures. For 1 minute, you gain a +1 bonus to your AC or a saving throw of your choice against creatures of that type with a CR more than 10 point lower than the result of your check. For humanoids, use the subtype instead. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
    • Trapkeen [8th level, investigation] When you would trigger a trap, you can make an investigation check as a reaction. If your check is higher than the save DC of the trap (or the attack bonus + 10) you do not trigger the trap.

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Shadow Instinct
    Stealth, 16th level
    Hiding is second nature to you. While in dim light or darkness you can hide as a free action.
    Spoiler: Or?
    Show
    I kind of want this to be a high level Rogue ability anyway


    Student of The Arcane
    Arcana, Level 4
    You learn 1 1st level spell with the Ritual tag from the Wizard spell list. You can select this option more than once. Choosing this at higher levels will allow you to select higher leveled spells. 2nd level at level 8, 3rd level at level 12, and 4th level at level 16.
    Spoiler: Religion & Nature
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    Student of The Gods
    Religion, Level 4
    You learn 1 1st level spell with the Ritual tag from the Cleric spell list. You can select this option more than once. Choosing this at higher levels will allow you to select higher leveled spells. 2nd level at level 8, 3rd level at level 12, and 4th level at level 16.

    Student of Nature
    Nature, Level 4
    You learn 1 1st level spell with the Ritual tag from the Druid spell list. You can select this option more than once. Choosing this at higher levels will allow you to select higher leveled spells. 2nd level at level 8, 3rd level at level 12, and 4th level at level 16.

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    They don't have to strictly be as weak as half a skill prof (so about a language or tool), I would argue they be about as strong as Expertise (makes you considerably better within a restricted niche you have already committed to). Which would equate to roughly one bullet of your typical 3-part feat.
    I don't think we'll agree on this. Getting proficiencies is simultaneously very easy and very infrequent naturally. But it seems like we're on the same page regardless with respect to balance so it probably doesn't matter that much. The final version could mention both options.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Agreed, we don't want the tricks to just add onto the typical routine and become just as boring as 'I attack', which is presumably what this is all to combat in the first place. Oh, movement is a possible avenue we can use as a resource substitute as well.

    Situational is good, I think enhancing actions that typically aren't competitive with 'Attack' such as Search, Dash, Use Item and Help are a good start. There is also extra synergy if you can take those actions using something like Cunning Action, Haste or Action Surge.
    Oh yes, I agree completely. I've done a little of this as you can see but I'd love to see it pushed further. The only 'problem' here is that it makes skill tricks easy to use every turn for rogues, but that's as it should be imo.

    Love the idea of trading movement for an ability though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    So to propose some tweaks and additions:
    Acrobatics:
    +2: Standing from Prone doesn't cost you extra movement
    +2: On your turn you can use 15' of your movement to increase your reach by 5' until the end of your turn
    +3: Attempting to escape from grapples and effects that cause you to be Restrained use your Bonus Action instead of your Action
    +4:

    Athletics:
    +2: Your shoves can push a creature up to 10', and if they cannot move the full distance because of running into another creature or surface they take damage equal to your Athletics roll (categorized like fall damage so isn't subject to bludgeoning resistance). 15' at Prof bonus +4, 20' at Prof +6
    +2: Your movement speed is not halved for carrying a grappled creature. At prof +4 it isn't halved when dragging either.
    +3: Jumping only expends half the amount of movement of the distance you travel
    +5: You can attempt to bend and break Force effects such as the bars of a Forcecage by making an Athletics check against the Caster's Spell DC.

    Arcana
    +2: By spending a short rest with an item you can identify it as per the Identify spell
    +3: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to instead attempt to disrupt a spellcaster. They must make a concentration saving throw against your Arcana check as the DC.
    +4: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to instead attempt to hamper a creature's magic resistance. If you succeed on an Arcana check against the creature's spell DC any advantage on saving throws or damage resistance against spells are negated until the start of your next turn.

    Medicine:
    +2: When you expend a use of a Healers Kit on a creature that creature also regains HP equal to your Medicine bonus (stat + prof)
    +2: You can attempt to use a Healers Kit on a creature to poison them, forcing them to make a Constitution saving throw against your Medicine check or be Poisoned for 1 minute. Cant retry on creatures that make the save.

    Perception:
    +3: When you take the Search action one creature you can see cannot become hidden from you until the end of your next turn.

    Insight:
    +3: You are always aware of when you are Charmed or having your thoughts read, or otherwise being mentally influenced.

    Intimidation:
    +2: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to cow a creature that can see and hear you, forcing it to make a Wisdom saving throw against your Intimidate check or be Frightened of you until the start of your next turn
    +3: Successfully Intimidating a creature renders you immune to the Frightened condition for 1 minute

    And so on.
    thoughts:
    • Athletics ones are all great. I can already guess what sorts of builds would take these and how they would use them. I particularly like the idea of a high level grappler sort crushing a force cage.
    • Arcana, I like what you're doing but these feel somewhat weak. I can see a fighter using them effectively I guess.
    • Medicine is fun because it allows you to do the "doctor who killed the mob boss." While extremely situational I can definitely see some of my players taking it.
    • The perception ability is less jank than the one I had.
    • Intimidation probably works better than the ability I had, my main concern is that its hard to use as a barbarian, which is one of the classes that I really want to be able to intimidate people.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    How many skill tricks to aim for? I think 6 for each skill, with 2 to start with at the +2 prof bonus stage but it could be hard to put that together.
    I think its a worthwhile goal. Hopefully we can get more people involved. Regardless the quality control and balance here is going to be rough.
    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I'd maybe allow one skill trick at each level they get an ASI, instead of costing a proficiency. Of 2 at 4th and then let them get +1 and swap one out at each following ASI they get from a martial class. You can probably hand it to martials without issue, especially if some of these have noncombat benefits.
    that would work pretty well yes. The only issue I have here is that fighters get tons of skill tricks this way while the barbarians are left out in the cold (again)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I would push this one back quite a bit. This seems to be one of the main risks with magical weapons, and can ruin some surprise (ex: as DM I can inform the party the javelin they found says "astrapí" on it, but they don't learn it is a javelin of lightning until later, hopefully when one gets suspicious and tries the word). I'd say that by 12th level they have enough magic items to justify this, but probably not sooner. Of course, this does depend on DM fiat for how easy it is to paid for identity and/or get the 100gp pearl. Combat Patrol might be a bit low level as well.
    I can see the argument for combat patrol.

    Identify as a skill trick could be pushed back, I just don't want it to be way worse than conventional identify. Though the point about the 100gp cost is well taken.
    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Off the top of my head:

    • Feint [4th level, deception] Once per turn, when you take the attack action, you can make a Deception check contested by the Insight check of the creature you are attacking. This must be done before making the attack roll. On a success, you deal an additional 1d4 damage with the attack.
    • Escape the Advantage [12th level, deception] Once per turn, when you make an attack roll with advantage, you can expend 5 feet of movement to move away from the target of your attack. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from the target of your attack.
    • Master Sneak [16th level, stealth] When you are hidden and make a melee weapon attack, you gain advantage on the next attack roll you make against the same creature before the start of your next turn or until you are no longer obscured to the target of your attack.
    • Natural Guard [8th level, survival] Whenever you are lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena you also gain half cover, even if the phenomena isn't solid.
    • Taste of Nature [4th level, nature or survival] Whenever you would ingest poison, you can make a Perception check to smell or taste the poison and avoid ingesting it.
    • Tactical Study [4th level, history] As a bonus action, you can make a History check against a creature you are fighting, to recall the historical tactics of such creatures. For 1 minute, you gain a +1 bonus to your AC or a saving throw of your choice against creatures of that type with a CR more than 10 point lower than the result of your check. For humanoids, use the subtype instead. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
    • Trapkeen [8th level, investigation] When you would trigger a trap, you can make an investigation check as a reaction. If your check is higher than the save DC of the trap (or the attack bonus + 10) you do not trigger the trap.
    • Feint is not something I'd want to go for because it basically adds something you are going to do every round, which is going to feel like pointless busy work at some point.
    • Escape seems incredibly situational, I'm not sure where it would be useful or why it needs to be so high level
    • Master Sneak is confusing. I get multiple attacks with advantage when coming out of hiding?
    • Natural Guard is passive, but thematically I do like the idea of a survival making you stronger when you're fighting in the rain. Very flavorful, there's something here.
    • Isn't taste of nature a basic rule?
    • Tactical Study is sort of not what I like because its something you're going to be doing every turn. Martials don't really need flat bonuses to AC and damage.
    • Trapkeen seems fun. It reminds me of the barbarian trapkiller ACF.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saelethil View Post
    Shadow Instinct
    Stealth, 16th level
    Hiding is second nature to you. While in dim light or darkness you can hide as a free action.
    Spoiler: Or?
    Show
    I kind of want this to be a high level Rogue ability anyway


    Student of The Arcane
    Arcana, Level 4
    You learn 1 1st level spell with the Ritual tag from the Wizard spell list. You can select this option more than once. Choosing this at higher levels will allow you to select higher leveled spells. 2nd level at level 8, 3rd level at level 12, and 4th level at level 16.
    Spoiler: Religion & Nature
    Show

    Student of The Gods
    Religion, Level 4
    You learn 1 1st level spell with the Ritual tag from the Cleric spell list. You can select this option more than once. Choosing this at higher levels will allow you to select higher leveled spells. 2nd level at level 8, 3rd level at level 12, and 4th level at level 16.

    Student of Nature
    Nature, Level 4
    You learn 1 1st level spell with the Ritual tag from the Druid spell list. You can select this option more than once. Choosing this at higher levels will allow you to select higher leveled spells. 2nd level at level 8, 3rd level at level 12, and 4th level at level 16.
    Shadow Instinct is interesting, although I'd prefer to have it work more like the shadow monk ability in this case.

    The Student tricks are better than my random one that just works on identify and nothing else, and I can already think of a lot of powerful tricks you can pull off with this. Though I would be concerned about everyone just taking this for find familiar.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2021-10-22 at 09:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    These tricks seem, honestly, a bit narrow to even bother writing down on your character sheet.

    "You can stand up fast" is often going to be completely useless.

    Every "reactive" one is niche. The ones that aren't reactive could get "use it all the time" boring.

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    I think this would make a great addition to the game, especially for experienced players. You could look at 4e utility powers for inspiration. You needed proficiency in a skill to pick the associated utility power, and they got more powerful as you gained levels.

    I can see this working a bit similar. I'm not sure what levels you'd get these at, but getting a 4th level utility Spell power at level 4 and a 6th level utility power at Level 6 etc. That way you don't have one giant list that gets worse the more you pick from it.

    I could easily see making a little booklet "Utility Power; a 5th edition Player supplement"

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I think this would make a great addition to the game, especially for experienced players. You could look at 4e utility powers for inspiration.
    Yeah that does sound like a good source, i'll have a dig through my archives.

    I think we're largely at the stage where we can pitch the concept and get as many ideas as possible to collate and decide on which ones make the cut. Do some crowdsourcing for the heavy lifting, like that barbarian powers thread.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Yeah that does sound like a good source, i'll have a dig through my archives.

    I think we're largely at the stage where we can pitch the concept and get as many ideas as possible to collate and decide on which ones make the cut. Do some crowdsourcing for the heavy lifting, like that barbarian powers thread.
    You mean pitch this back into the 5e subforum? I don't know how this stuff is handled.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    I am full aware of the Golden Retriever energy, but, what Barbarian Power thread???

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    You mean pitch this back into the 5e subforum? I don't know how this stuff is handled.
    This thread is probably better off here, but we can link it in other discussions to get more eyes on it and accumulate suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I am full aware of the Golden Retriever energy, but, what Barbarian Power thread???
    This one
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...n-Maneuver-Jam
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Right apologies for the delay on that, had to dig for my 4e stuff. Fun fact, the PHB only had 8 classes (Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Warlord, Wizard) and by 5e recognition the martials outweighed the casters.

    From just the 4e PHB Utility powers not counting those of the Cleric, Warlock and Wizard, here are some we could potentially repurpose:

    - Dragging an ally closer to you without provoking Opp attacks
    - Boosting your or someone elses initiative
    - Granting bonuses to an ally's save
    - Take no damage from an attack but instead get stunned for a turn
    - Chase an enemy disengaging from you
    - Take an action when an ally drops to 0
    - Recover HP to get you up to half, but take a level of exhaustion
    - Bonuses to attack/damage to an enemy that hits you with an attack
    - Marking a target adjacent to the one you hit with an attack
    - Take an attack instead of an adjacent ally
    - Bonus to Cha checks for a limited time
    - Help action gives super-advantage (3 dice instead of 2)
    - Apply advantage to an ally's death saves
    - Automatically fail a save against an AoE to allow allies to automatically pass
    - Allow allies to make a new save-ends attempt (for ongoing spells like Hold Person)
    - Burn a Hit Die to make a save-ends attempt
    - Give your Hit Dice to others
    - Shove an enemy before they land an attack, causing it to miss
    - Sacrifice Hit Dice to remove Exhaustion
    - Turn THP into healing
    - Force an enemy to reroll damage and take the lower amount
    - Reroll failed ability check
    - Trade places with an ally
    - Spend your action to allow an ally to act when surprised
    - Allow an ally not proficient in a skill to use your bonus to the check
    - Temporarily increase your speed
    - Remove enemy Marks on yourself or allies
    - Roll an Insight check instead of a weapon attack or damage roll
    - Hand your inspiration to someone else
    - Use your inspiration for a reroll
    - Gain inspiration even if you already have one (need to use by end of next turn)
    - If you miss with an attack, enemy knocked prone anyway
    - Use a stealth check in place of an initiative check
    - Take penalty to AC and saves to gain same bonus to attack and damage rolls
    - Make a Sleight of Hand check instead of a weapon attack roll
    - Decide whether to make a Bluff attempt after you see your roll
    - Replace an attack with a Sleight of Hand attempt to take something from an enemy
    - Make a stealth check before breaking line of sight (fails if you don't break by the end of your turn)
    - Share spaces with an ally without penalty
    - Able to move cover to cover without breaking Stealth
    - Enemy hits itself with an attack that misses you
    - Sabotage a lock you successfully pick
    - If allowed or forced to move outside of your turn, you can decide direction
    - Can make two jumps and add them together as if it were one jump
    - Can jump from any surface or object that can support your weight
    - If revealed while hiding can use reaction to move back into cover
    - When an Ally gets healed or receives THP they also get advantage on their next attack roll
    - If you have THP and are hit with an attack that leaves you with THP still, use your reaction to make an attack back
    - As long as you aren't incapacitated allies have +1d4 to attacks and saves if they can see/hear you (doesn't stack with Bless/Peace cleric)
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Did you make a specific note on which utility powers were labelled "skill powers", and what skilled they were assigned to?
    I think Martial Powrr 1 and 2 had more of these.


    Note how most of the lower level ones are absolute trash, and usually just take an action and turn it into a bonus action, and is usually has limited uses per day. This is intended, and I think it should stay that way. You need the players to know what it's like to just use the skills as written, before giving them superpowers.

    So now we just have to agree on a chassis?
    I can see two options pop up immediately


    1. Divide the skill powers into small lists based on power level. At each level a character would get a Skill Power he can select from a list corresponding with his level, or from a list of a lower level. You have a limit to how many skill powers you can know, but can swap one when you gain a level. This allows you to unlearn a low level power for a higher level version that does the same thing, but better.
    This has some really nice precedent in the game already, such as Spellcasting, Invocations and more.


    2. Same as above, but instead of having the lists be determined by level, it's instead determined by your total proficiency bonus for that skill. This means that with expertise you gain access to higher level Skill Powers. There is no precedent for this, so I'm less excited about it.

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    I'm actually really excited to see the Spellcasting class feature rewritten, using the official phrasing, to reference Skill Powers instead of spells.


    ... Hang on. I'll do it! I'll make another thread, give me a móment

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    No these were just class utility powers for the PHB martials, theres tons more if you delve into the PHB II, X Power and other splatbooks. Wouldnt be hard to cherrypick from the casters too, but i thought that list was big enough to start with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    So now we just have to agree on a chassis?
    I can see two options pop up immediately

    1. Divide the skill powers into small lists based on power level.

    2. Same as above, but instead of having the lists be determined by level, it's instead determined by your total proficiency bonus for that skill.
    Both are almost the same really, since prof bonus scales by level (+2 at level 1 plus an additional 1 every 4 levels).
    Expertise doesnt increase your prof bonus but allows you to apply it twice. There is the ioun stone that does increase your prof bonus by 1, but thats a Very Rare or Legendary magic item and not any more gamebreaking than anything else at that point (book of stat increase or robe of the archmagi for example)
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Yeah the main difference is that with expertise you get access to the higher level Skill Power list sooner that other classes.

    Although, dividing the list by total bonus is also kind of cool.

    At level 1 you gain 4 skill Powers. You need to be proficient in a Skill Power's associated Skill. What Skill List you choose your Skill Power from is determined by your total modifier to each skill. For example, a Sorcerer has +3 Charisma and Proficiency in Deception. His total bonus is +5, which allows him to choose a Deception Skill Power from either the +0 or +5 list. The same sorcerer has +1 Intelligence and is proficient in the Arcana skill. His total modifier of +3 at 1st level means he can only choose an Arcana Skill Power from the +0 Skill List. The Sorcerer not proficient in Acrobatics, and can therefor not choose any Skill Powers associated with that Skill proficiency.


    Whenever you gain a level you can replace one Skill Power you know with another one from the Skill Lists.

    Skill Powers +0
    Here are basic skill Powers, for everyone with a total modifier of 4 or less. You still need proficiency in order to pick a Power from this list.

    Skill Powers +5
    Here are the next level of Skill Powers, which need at least a +5 total modifier to gain access to

    Skill Powers +7
    Here are some solid Skill Powers, since you need a primary ability modifier and expertise to get this high early. You'll get this high automatically eventually, but having strong powers here really rewards those who specialize, and classes which get expertise.

    Skill Powers +10
    Here are some really powerful Skill Powers, since you'd need a +4 modifier and expertise with a +3 proficiency bonus, which is very specific and only accessible post level 5.



    Okay, I completely butchered the grammar on this one. I'm tired xD
    I'll fix it when I have a brain again ;)

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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    I added a bunch more, trying to "fill out" the various skills we already have

    Spoiler
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    Acrobatics:
    +2: Standing from Prone doesn't cost you extra movement
    +2: On your turn you can use 15' of your movement to increase your reach by 5' until the end of your turn
    +3: Attempting to escape from grapples and effects that cause you to be Restrained use your Bonus Action instead of your Action
    +4: Can make two jumps and add them together as if it were one jump (at prof 5 this simply becomes a fly speed on your turn)
    +5: As a reaction, stop yourself from falling by balancing on nothing.


    Athletics:
    +2: Your shoves can push a creature up to 10', and if they cannot move the full distance because of running into another creature or surface they take damage equal to your Athletics roll (categorized like fall damage so isn't subject to bludgeoning resistance). 15' at Prof bonus +4, 20' at Prof +6
    +2: Your movement speed is not halved for carrying a grappled creature. At prof +4 it isn't halved when dragging either.
    +3: Jumping only expends half the amount of movement of the distance you travel
    +4: As a reaction, when an enemy provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can follow them with up to half your movement.
    +5: You can attempt to bend and break Force effects such as the bars of a Forcecage by making an Athletics check against the Caster's Spell DC.

    Arcana
    +2: By spending a short rest with an item you can identify it as per the Identify spell
    +2: If you spend ten minutes or more investigating an area, you can determine if there is any magical effect present in the area that could be found with the detect magic spell.
    +3: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to instead attempt to disrupt a spellcaster. They must make a concentration saving throw against your Arcana check as the DC.
    +4: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to instead attempt to hamper a creature's magic resistance. If you succeed on an Arcana check against the creature's spell DC any advantage on saving throws or damage resistance against spells are negated until the start of your next turn.

    Medicine:
    +2: When you expend a use of a Healers Kit on a creature that creature also regains HP equal to your Medicine bonus (stat + prof) <-- this one seems kind of crazy to me.
    +2: You can attempt to use a Healers Kit on a creature to poison them, forcing them to make a Constitution saving throw against your Medicine check or be Poisoned for 1 minute. Cant retry on creatures that make the save.
    +3: As an action, you can use a healer's kit to end the poisoned condition on a creature. Other effects of a poison or curse besides the poisoned condition may persist.
    +4: You can use a health potion to attempt to restore to life a creature that has died within the last ten minutes. You must attempt a DC 20 medicine check. If you fail the potion is consumed and the creature remains dead, if you succeed, the creature comes back to life with one HP. Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a −4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears.
    +5: Over the course of a short rest, you can remove a level of exhaustion from one creature you can touch.


    Perception:
    +2: Dim light doesn't impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks.
    +2: Unseen enemies do not have advantage when attacking you

    +3: When you take the Search action one creature you can see cannot become hidden from you until the end of your next turn.
    +4: You can see up to 1 mile away with no difficulty, able to discern even fine details as though looking at something no more than 100 feet away from you.
    +5: As an action, give yourself truesight for ten minutes. Afterwards you gain a level of exhaustion.


    Insight:
    +2: After studying a creature you can see for a minute, you learn something about them that allows your next check against them to have advantage.
    +2: You can always tell if a creature you see desires to kill you.

    +3: You are always aware of when you are Charmed or having your thoughts read, or otherwise being mentally influenced.
    +4: After studying a creature you can see for a minute, you can deduce their surface level thoughts. You can continue to read their surface level thoughts for up to an hour as long as you maintain line of sight on them.
    +5: As an action, you probe the thoughts of a creature by reading minute facial expressions. You make an insight check opposed by its deception check. If you succeed, you gain insight into its reasoning (if any), its emotional state, and something that looms large in its mind (such as something it worries over, loves, or hates). The target is unaware that you can read its thoughts.


    Intimidation:
    +2: When an enemy provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can make an intimidation check instead of attacking. The enemy must then make a wisdom saving throw or have their movement speed reduced to zero.
    +2: You can substitute an attack (like a shove) to cow a creature that can see and hear you, forcing it to make a Wisdom saving throw against your Intimidate check or be Frightened of you until the start of your next turn
    +3: Successfully Intimidating a creature renders you immune to the Frightened condition for 1 minute
    +4: If you do not move on your turn, you can, as an action, make an intimidation check against any number of creatures you can see within thirty feet of you. All of them must make a Wisdom saving throw against your Intimidate check or be Frightened of you until the start of your next turn.
    +5: Creatures who are normally immune to the frightened effect can become frightened of you.


    There are still a lot more skills to do, and some of them seem particularly troublesome, like History and Animal Handling. Not even sure if such things should be attempted tbh.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2021-11-08 at 03:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    I run with a modified list of skills anyways, you might want to try that if certain skills arent playing nice?
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    I run with a modified list of skills anyways, you might want to try that if certain skills arent playing nice?
    sure, hit me with it
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    - Alchemy and Herbalism Tools are Merged into the Medicine skill
    - Thieves Tools are Merged into Sleight of Hand (renamed Thievery)
    - Performance is dropped and split into the other CHA skills and Instrument tools
    - Animal Handling is dropped and split into Survival and new 'Steeds' tool (like land and water vehicles, but for mounts)
    - Nature, History and Religion are dropped splitting into Arcana, Survival and new Lore skill
    - New Skill: Appraisal to fill in a gap and make up for number of INT skills


    So the final list looks like:

    Alchemy/Medicine (Wis)
    Acrobatics (Dex)
    Appraisal (Int)
    Arcana (Int)
    Athletics (Str)
    Deception (Cha)
    Insight (Wis)
    Intimidation (Cha)
    Investigation (Int)
    Lore (Int)
    Perception (Wis)
    Persuasion (Cha)
    Stealth (Dex)
    Survival (Wis)
    Thievery (Dex)
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    Default Re: Skill Tricks for Martials

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Alchemy and Herbalism Tools are Merged into the Medicine skill
    - Thieves Tools are Merged into Sleight of Hand (renamed Thievery)
    - Performance is dropped and split into the other CHA skills and Instrument tools
    - Animal Handling is dropped and split into Survival and new 'Steeds' tool (like land and water vehicles, but for mounts)
    - Nature, History and Religion are dropped splitting into Arcana, Survival and new Lore skill
    - New Skill: Appraisal to fill in a gap and make up for number of INT skills


    So the final list looks like:

    Alchemy/Medicine (Wis)
    Acrobatics (Dex)
    Appraisal (Int)
    Arcana (Int)
    Athletics (Str)
    Deception (Cha)
    Insight (Wis)
    Intimidation (Cha)
    Investigation (Int)
    Lore (Int)
    Perception (Wis)
    Persuasion (Cha)
    Stealth (Dex)
    Survival (Wis)
    Thievery (Dex)
    Looks really sensible, and it would make things easier...

    I'll give a crack at it tomorrow if I have the time. My players canceled on me so I just might.
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