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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vacation in Nyalotha

    Default The four S task discussion framework

    I was musing earlier on just how to map out the components of a given task (Crossing Butthurt Bay) and ended up considering what follows. In short it’s about framing tasks in a way that highlights impactful decisions, tradeoffs, and events not worth the logistical fuss.

    To Engineers, I say Quality Speed and Cost. You know where this is going, compromises and tradeoffs.

    Let us begin with the flowery definitions.
    Surety: how risky is this approach to solving the task?
    Speed: how quickly does this approach promise a resolution?
    Sustainability: how much will this drain limited resources up front?

    Taking the route along the coast is both Speedy and Sustainable, but the threat of pirates makes this an unsure solution.

    Opting for the meandering merchant route is sure and sustainable, but it is nowhere near speedy.

    Pulling out the magical Wind Knots to cut a course straight across is Speedy and Sure, but hardly sustainable.

    If the players are capable of satisfying all three Speedy, Sure, and Sustainable then you’re looking at little more than a few moments of narration.

    Enter the fourth S, Scope. Crossing Butthurt Bay even by the leisurely merchant route will get the party across in time for the Guvner’s wedding. But the party wants to make a detour to Intoxication Island, the merchant route would be too slow for this broadened scope. Thus they are forced to weigh the risks of the coast or the cost of the wind knots against their desire to visit II and reach the other side of BB in time.

    The reverse could also be true where they have a surplus of time and can afford to broaden the scope of their crossing to include more stops.

    To boil it all down, the players ask about doing X. GM considers the first three S-es and highlights if it’s uncertain, slow, and/or costly. Driving discussion towards accepting risks, accepting the time cost, accepting the resource cost, and/or adjusting the scope of their action will aid the players in understanding (and enumerating) their options and making informed decisions. Clear and obvious lowball suggestions can be a cue for the GM to inform the players that they can dream bigger (Scope).

    Gibberish? Common sense? Too much of a straight jacket? Better phrasing? Let’s hear it.
    Last edited by Xervous; 2021-10-20 at 02:33 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    Yes, you can use dilemmas, trilemmas etc. to explain what options players have available and what trade-offs exist between them.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    Sounds like a good framework. I like this kind of thinking.

    Are you familiar with Blades in the Dark? It has a codified system for setting the stakes of each dice roll, by choosing “position” (how risky the action is: controlled, risky or desperate) and “effect” (how effective it is: great, standard or limited).

    I also tinkered with a core mechanic for a non-existent game a while back that is even closer to your framework. You would roll a dice pool and each success lets you pick an adverb for how you do the action: safely, quickly, thoroughly. The established fiction would tell you which to prioritise.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    Fate Accelerated-specific, but generally applicable and does do a good job of pointing out potential costs/risks.

    https://walkingmind.evilhat.com/2018/01/17/risks/
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2021-10-21 at 11:23 AM.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    To reuse an example…

    If I'm asked to fix a car, I will move very slowly and carefully, both at each step, and in researching beforehand. My most common "complication" is "calling on friends for things I cannot understand".

    My dad? Maybe it's more likely that he'd fix it fast… or break something else trying… and possibly injure himself along the way.

    Quertus? Expend a spell slot, and it's fixed (or, if the world is full of whimsy, he'll use it as RAW materials to Fabricate 3 new cars).

    I think it's handy for the GM to understand that there's more than one way to skin a cat, to learn not to think in terms of "the only way to…", and to allow players to characterize their characters by choosing their own settings for those variables.

    However, if the players are stumped how to make time for intoxication island, is that a good time for the GM to engage? Even if it is… does understanding this system really help them point out, "you know, you've got a Wand…"?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Burbank CA
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    Male

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    I think the The four S task discussion framework will help me in conversations where the party is unsure and trying to resolve the situation and where I do not want to push them a particular way but do wan tto help them. By offering the structure I think it will help guide the inter-party conversation while allowing me to remain impartial to a greater degree. Or at least that how it feels at the moment. We shall see when I do try and use it.
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the context of the game world.

    "D&D does not have SECRET rules that can only be revealed by meticulous deconstruction of words and grammar. There is only the unclear rules prose that makes people think there are secret rules to be revealed."

    Consistency between games and tables is but the dream of a madman - Mastikator

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Oct 2010
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    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Opting for the meandering merchant route is sure and sustainable, but it is nowhere near speedy.
    Keep in mind this only matters if there's a ticking clock of some kind, even a soft or minor one.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vacation in Nyalotha

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Keep in mind this only matters if there's a ticking clock of some kind, even a soft or minor one.
    Yup, I brushed on that a little. If the GM looks through this lens and sees “hey time doesn’t matter” or “hey all these things are 100% success” or “there’s no budget in sight” this is just the task having a more forgiving scope. If the task is trivial enough you just narrate. Part of the hope in presenting this structure is that it may lead GMs to earlier realizations that certain tasks are trivial and only need narration, AND pass this information on to the players (where appropriate) so they can make an informed decision. I expect this structure is a lot less useful for experienced GMs who have a firm understanding of how to present scenes and choices. But others? A loose pattern is a better example than the absence of one that many systems provide, assuming the system deals in similar functions and currencies.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Ohio

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    Scope creep. Well, we smashed the pirates so we have plenty of time to get to the wedding. Let’s stop off at intoxicated island. Then the storm hits, one thing leads to another, and you’re stuck on the island during the wedding. A way for gm to throw problems at the players, but also good for tempting the players to dig themselves a hole. “You get a fate point if y’all decide to take the detour “

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: The four S task discussion framework

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Yup, I brushed on that a little. If the GM looks through this lens and sees “hey time doesn’t matter” or “hey all these things are 100% success” or “there’s no budget in sight” this is just the task having a more forgiving scope. If the task is trivial enough you just narrate. Part of the hope in presenting this structure is that it may lead GMs to earlier realizations that certain tasks are trivial and only need narration, AND pass this information on to the players (where appropriate) so they can make an informed decision. I expect this structure is a lot less useful for experienced GMs who have a firm understanding of how to present scenes and choices. But others? A loose pattern is a better example than the absence of one that many systems provide, assuming the system deals in similar functions and currencies.
    Fully agree. I like the idea of this structure as training wheels for newer GMs.

    I think it would also be good to pair it with a nice method for organising prep - fronts, clocks or whatnot - to help the GM make sure those stakes, particularly time, are always on hand.

    Also imo it fits well with what Kyoryu recently posted about recasting “success and failure” as “goes well and goes badly”. That way when something seems like a 100% success action, you can potentially still make the roll and have “failure” just mean a disappointing success, or a success with a cost.
    Last edited by HidesHisEyes; 2021-10-22 at 01:58 PM.

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