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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    The 5e spell/slot system has been one of the best things in my option; but that does indeed eliminate the big distinction between wizards and sorcs. In 3e, I would always prefer to play sorcs just to get away from "fire-and-forget."

    The fact is, all casters have been nerfed a bit in 5e. When a caster is limited by the spell slot level instead of caster level for a spell's effect, that is a big nerf. I don't think it's a bad thing, given the huge perceived power gap between casters and martials.

    I like that a sorc subclass can be built around a theme. The divine soul is awesome: even without gaining extra slots or spells known, having access to the cleric list is great. I allow a "primal soul" as well, with access to the druid list. Maybe a "bardic soul"? The aberrant mind is good as well, and a great way to ease into psionics. Metamagic is very useful too.

    In 3e, a sorcerer had fewer spells-known than the wizard, but more "slots." I would allow bonus spell slots based on the sorc's Cha bonus. A sorc could also use simple weapons; I would allow that as well.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    The big issue i'm seeing is that they can't cast nearly as often as they could in previous editions.
    Pay very close attention to what follows.
    Forget your previous editions.
    Treat this as a new game.
    I didn't begin to enjoy 5e until I did that. I had some previous edition mastery going and a bunch of 5e stuff made me go "What?"
    Again, I say to you, it makes no difference what previous editions did.
    Just play this one for what it is. I discovered that it is enjoyable when you do that and don't fight it.
    Happy Gaming.
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    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Play a Tashas Sorcerer, and use the Spell Point DMG variant. Should do the trick
    Roll for it
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    In 3e, a sorcerer had fewer spells-known than the wizard, but more "slots." I would allow bonus spell slots based on the sorc's Cha bonus. A sorc could also use simple weapons; I would allow that as well.
    I wouldn't do this - part of the point of eliminating the bonus spells progression was to negate the need for players to have to check two different tables every level to know how many slots they actually have per day. That, and with bounded accuracy you're pretty much guaranteed for every full caster to have 20 in their primary stat by level 8 if not sooner, so there isn't even a point behind a bonus spells mechanic - just bake how many slots you think they should have into their base allotment, and that's how many casters get whether they have 16 Cha, 18, or 20.

    What I would probably do instead for the sorcerer to make them the king of "spells/day", is to make the sorcery point->slot conversion cheaper. Make it a straightforward 1:1 match - spend a point, get a 1st-level slot. Spend 5, get a 5th-level slot. And of course, just like before, it's a 1:1 match in the other direction too - spend a 5th-level slot, get 5 points etc. It's the best kind of buff because it actually makes the game easier to play, and also makes sorcerers extremely flexible since they can go from slots to points to slots and back again without it being a net loss. This also means they'll have some extra points for metamagic.

    I'd start there and see if they needed any additional buffs, but again - I think sorcery points are the ideal lever here.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Play a Tashas Sorcerer, and use the Spell Point DMG variant. Should do the trick
    Is there such a thing as a "baseline" or "generic" sorcerer in 5e? I know the game is based on picking a subclass; but I'm wondering if there is the sorcerer equivalent of the fighter's champion archetype.

    I'm assuming that war magic is the "generic" wizard now?

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    Is there such a thing as a "baseline" or "generic" sorcerer in 5e? I know the game is based on picking a subclass; but I'm wondering if there is the sorcerer equivalent of the fighter's champion archetype.
    Draconic Origin.
    That's the equivalent to the Fighter Champion, Monk Open Hand, Rogue Thief, Ranger Hunter and so on as the basic sorcerer. (See also life cleric, evoker wizard, Circle of the Land Druid...)
    (If you download the 5.1 SRD from WoTC, you'll see all of the baseline class / sub class combinations).

    If only they'd have tweaked the Wild Magic Sorcerer a bit before release and made the wild magic thing a bit more table friendly, that might have been a better base line ... oh well, what might have been.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-10-21 at 09:44 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Draconic Origin.
    That's the equivalent to the Fighter Champion, Monk Open Hand, Rogue Thief, Ranger Hunter and so on as the basic sorcerer. (See also life cleric, evoker wizard, Circle of the Land Druid...)
    (If you download the 5.1 SRD from WoTC, you'll see all of the baseline class / sub class combinations).

    If only they'd have tweaked the Wild Magic Sorcerer a bit before release and made the wild magic thing a bit more table friendly, that might have been a better base line ... oh well, what might have been.
    That may be the subclass included in the SRD, but there's nothing about "Draconic Origin" that seems generic to me. But then, there is really no "generic" wizard option either. I thought the Loremaster UA subclass was going to be it, but they never developed it.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    That may be the subclass included in the SRD, but there's nothing about "Draconic Origin" that seems generic to me. But then, there is really no "generic" wizard option either. I thought the Loremaster UA subclass was going to be it, but they never developed it.
    It was an OP pile of mess (Loremaster). We had one in play about 2017-ish. Glad it got filed away.

    As to Draconic Origin being generic sorcerer: sorcerer has magic in their blood, they are inherently magical. Dragons are magical creatures. That seems a pretty explicit parallel ...

    If you read the whole PHB treatment on the sorcerer, I think that you'll find the draconic origin to fit the sorcerer class description pretty well. (Well, I did as I read through it). Given that there were only two originally the basic sorcerer would be one or the other. Do you think that Wild Magic Sorcerer is the base class? Maybe it was meant to be.

    (FWIW, if you go to the Basic Rules, they have Life Cleric, Thief Rogue, Evoker Wizard, Champion Fighter. Same as in SRD).
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-10-21 at 10:37 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    I'd say Wild Magic is the simple sorcerer option actually. Yeah the big surge table might look scary, but the player doesn't actually have to worry about it or even track anything other than their base resources (spells + sorcery points). It's up to the GM to call for a wild magic roll, and for a brand new player I think rolling on that table is going to be an exciting moment. The other features (Tides of Chaos and Bend Luck) are extremely simple to use.

    As for Wizard, simplest is probably Evocation but "simple wizard" has been a bit of an oxymoron throughout D&D's history and 5e is no exception.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    I feel like the only thing I can add to this is that Sorcerer is a much better dip class imo. But I'm barely playing a Sorcerer in my current game as a 14 Thief Rogue/1 Shadow Sorcerer.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    It was an OP pile of mess (Loremaster). We had one in play about 2017-ish. Glad it got filed away.

    As to Draconic Origin being generic sorcerer: sorcerer has magic in their blood, they are inherently magical. Dragons are magical creatures. That seems a pretty explicit parallel ...

    If you read the whole PHB treatment on the sorcerer, I think that you'll find the draconic origin to fit the sorcerer class description pretty well. (Well, I did as I read through it). Given that there were only two originally the basic sorcerer would be one or the other. Do you think that Wild Magic Sorcerer is the base class? Maybe it was meant to be.

    (FWIW, if you go to the Basic Rules, they have Life Cleric, Thief Rogue, Evoker Wizard, Champion Fighter. Same as in SRD).
    I find the abilities of the draconic sorcerer are very generic under level 14. They get extra HP. Make armor equivalent ac extra damage for a type of your choosing and a damage resistance. 14 and above is now draconic and less generic I would say.

    Honestly though if I were to fix the sorcerer class and make them unique I would leave everything as is and add all the spells to their spell list. Keto them with the smallest spells known but give them the largest list to choose from. This allows them to become the ultimate specialist. What ever you want to do you can take the best spells for it.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    I find the abilities of the draconic sorcerer are very generic under level 14. They get extra HP. Make armor equivalent ac extra damage for a type of your choosing and a damage resistance. 14 and above is now draconic and less generic I would say.

    Honestly though if I were to fix the sorcerer class and make them unique I would leave everything as is and add all the spells to their spell list. Keto them with the smallest spells known but give them the largest list to choose from. This allows them to become the ultimate specialist. What ever you want to do you can take the best spells for it.
    Yikes, and I thought the analysis paralysis with Divine Soul was bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    What attracts me to playing a sorcerer is the ability to double-cast some spells with Twin.
    Twinned Haste, Twinned Disintegrate, Twinned Flesh to Stone, etc.

    This is better at high levels than at low levels, though.
    Last edited by J-H; 2021-10-21 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Sorcerers are also the only caster that can sacrifice lower spell slots to make higher level spell slots.

    So when you really need that fireball and you’ve spent your 2 level 3 spell slots, a wizard would be SoL, but a sorcerer can sacrifice his lower slots and have access to another fireball.
    Last edited by Gignere; 2021-10-21 at 05:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    In theory they get more slots/day if you take sorcery points into account. But, that is perhaps the worst thing to spend your points on, so in practice they end up being much weaker.
    Not arguing with the overall message. But I am noting that if spells are the wort thing to spend sorcery points on, that does strongly imply those points are worth more than spells
    Last edited by Duff; 2021-10-21 at 07:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    As for Wizard, simplest is probably Evocation but "simple wizard" has been a bit of an oxymoron throughout D&D's history and 5e is no exception.
    Heh, yeah, and that was an interesting point you made about the Wild Magic Sorcerer for a new player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yikes, and I thought the analysis paralysis with Divine Soul was bad.
    Yeah, it afflicts me mightily when I play a full caster. Monks are a breath of fresh air in comparison.
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    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    In theory they get more slots/day if you take sorcery points into account. But, that is perhaps the worst thing to spend your points on, so in practice they end up being much weaker.
    Not sure this is true. For the most part, if Sorc spends their SPs on their highest slot, that essentially equals what a Wizard gets back from a SR, no? A 5th level Sorc can fuel a 3rd level slot, a Wizard can recover a 3rd level slot; etc.

    So essentially a Sorc needs to forego Metamagic to keep up with a Wizard’s casting, and that’s before Ritual spells are factored in.

    Tier 4 this might change and allow for an extra lower level spell, if that matters; but by and large, they need to sacrifice Metamagic just to keep pace with the Wizard’s slots.
    Last edited by RSP; 2021-10-21 at 08:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    Not sure this is true. For the most part, if Sorc spends their SPs on their highest slot, that essentially equals what a Wizard gets back from a SR, no? A 5th level Sorc can fuel a 3rd level slot, a Wizard can recover a 3rd level slot; etc.

    So essentially a Sorc needs to forego Metamagic to keep up with a Wizard’s casting, and that’s before Ritual spells are factored in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    Not arguing with the overall message. But I am noting that if spells are the wort thing to spend sorcery points on, that does strongly imply those points are worth more than spells
    I'm not saying you should never convert points to slots, but there are two factors that make it not the best idea usually:

    1) Several subclass features get more value from those points than converting them into slots would have given. Shadow for example - you can spend a 2nd-level slot on Darkvision, or you can convert that slot to points and use those instead - same cost, only now you get to see through the darkness too. Or Aberrant Mind's psionic sorcery - you can convert a psionic slot into points, and use those points to cast the same spell, getting Subtle Spell added in for free.

    2) As I mentioned earlier, the point-slot exchange rate is worse when you're converting the former to the latter. When you're converting a 2nd-level slot to points you get 2, but when you're doing the reverse it costs you 3, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Pay very close attention to what follows.
    Forget your previous editions.
    Or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4jeREy7Pbc

    On paper the Wizard exceeds the Sorcerer, in play the Ritual Magic gap is less of a problem.

    Some players do not like changing their spell load outs on a daily basis, but still like playing Spell Casters; and Sorcerers do play differently from Bards.

    Bards, especially bards that are filling a primary spell caster role in a party, noticeably lack a spell slot recovery feature outside of resting.

    Sorcerers avoid some of the spell slot pinch through Metamagic and Spell Slot creation.

    Also, some people truly love Sorcerers as a concept, at this point the concept is firmly part of the genre. I think 5e Sorcerers play better than 3e Sorcerers, and honestly, that is not a conclusion I would have predicted I would have reached 7 years ago.

    Shadow Sorcerers scream Zelazny's Jack of Shadows to me.
    Triton Storm Sorcerers are cool....as are Dragonmarked Sorcerers.

    Once War Mages and Beguilers became class options, I very never saw people make Sorcerers again in 3e

    If you think sorcerers are not inherently appealing as a concept, and would rather manage your spell load out and have, arguably, the Best Ritual Magic in the game, then I would posit the Wizard class is probably a better fit.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderous Mojo View Post
    Or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4jeREy7Pbc

    On paper the Wizard exceeds the Sorcerer, in play the Ritual Magic gap is less of a problem.
    IMO ritual magic is overrated. It's utility sure, but its boring utility. It's book keeping. There's a kind of player that likes that, and they should play a character who gets ritual magic, but frankly a lot of players, I'd even say most players simply don't care about it and view it as a nuisance. Lots of players who have it as a feature seriously seem not to care about it one way or another.

    The proof is in the pudding: I very rarely see people actually take ritual magic as a feat, even high level fighters who are swimming in the things.
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    The proof is in the pudding: I very rarely see people actually take ritual magic as a feat, even high level fighters who are swimming in the things.
    Me who took the Ritual Caster feat to have Find Familiar as a Druid at 1st lvl only for Tasha's to just let Druid's summon familiars anyway.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    IMO ritual magic is overrated. It's utility sure, but its boring utility. It's book keeping. There's a kind of player that likes that, and they should play a character who gets ritual magic, but frankly a lot of players, I'd even say most players simply don't care about it and view it as a nuisance. Lots of players who have it as a feature seriously seem not to care about it one way or another.

    The proof is in the pudding: I very rarely see people actually take ritual magic as a feat, even high level fighters who are swimming in the things.
    If that's true then it works out - only one person ever needs to care about rituals anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Every 5e game I've been in, rituals were a big deal, with the exception of the one where the DM seemed to think stopping for 10 minutes to do anything meant we had too much free time on our hands. That game also only lasted a couple of sessions. (This was not its only problem.)

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    1. Usually, spontaneous casters are more versatile than prepared caster and should have less spell slots. Spontaneous caster have more choice on each spells slot so they could "prepare" some conditional spells while prepared caster are forced to prepare "overall good spells" or they would lost spell slots. 3.5/PF1 wizard, in general, is better than sorcerer because they have too many spell slots(High level are different, sorcerer is better than wizard in computer games). PF2 wizard is, in general, quite close to arcane sorcerer since wizard only have 1 more spell slot on highest level.

    2. All 5e casters are spontaneous and every class know enough spells, so spontaneous vs prepared isn't a problem here. In general sorcerer is a better class but still quite close to wizard due to following advantages:

    -could twin and quicken cantrip to deal more damage than other casters, could multiclass Hex blade 1
    -could twin certain spell
    -Have divine soul subclass

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by shipiaozi View Post
    1. Usually, spontaneous casters are more versatile than prepared caster and should have less spell slots. Spontaneous caster have more choice on each spells slot so they could "prepare" some conditional spells while prepared caster are forced to prepare "overall good spells" or they would lost spell slots. 3.5/PF1 wizard, in general, is better than sorcerer because they have too many spell slots(High level are different, sorcerer is better than wizard in computer games). PF2 wizard is, in general, quite close to arcane sorcerer since wizard only have 1 more spell slot on highest level.

    2. All 5e casters are spontaneous and every class know enough spells, so spontaneous vs prepared isn't a problem here. In general sorcerer is a better class but still quite close to wizard due to following advantages:

    -could twin and quicken cantrip to deal more damage than other casters, could multiclass Hex blade 1
    -could twin certain spell
    -Have divine soul subclass
    Your own arguments self-contradict, here. The sheer lack of spell choices in numbers makes sorcerers less able to "'prepare' some conditional spells" than wizards. The idea that sorcerers "know enough spells" is kind-of laughable, too. And you've done nothing to support "In general sorcerer is a better class" when you list what brings it "quite close to the wizard" as that list of advantages that pull it near rather than being what make it "better."

    You need to work on how you present your ideas, shipiaozi; you're possibly using the wrong comparison and qualifier words, and it's muddling your expression of your position. Couple this confusion of what you're saying with how controversial your position tends to be, and it makes people pay little attention to what you want to say and more to the fact that your presentation sometimes seems to be saying the opposite of what it means, and thus it just comes together to make people disregard you as "wrong" without even trying to examine your argument. Because your argument is not presented in a clear enough way that we could even restate it accurately.
    Last edited by Segev; 2021-10-22 at 09:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Every 5e game I've been in, rituals were a big deal, with the exception of the one where the DM seemed to think stopping for 10 minutes to do anything meant we had too much free time on our hands. That game also only lasted a couple of sessions. (This was not its only problem.)
    Phantom Steed alone can be a massive gamechanger for overland travel when you've got any sort of time pressure. More than tripling your party's speed (assuming there's 5-or-fewer party members) is pretty good, and they never get exhausted because you replace them every hour. Requires an initial hour of setup, sure, but after that you're good to go.

    Detect Magic likewise comes up pretty often for investigation purposes. Tiny Hut for camping safely. They're definitely not minor things. I wouldn't call them "overpowered" or "broken" or anything but they're definitely *significant*.
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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    Phantom Steed alone can be a massive gamechanger for overland travel when you've got any sort of time pressure. More than tripling your party's speed (assuming there's 5-or-fewer party members) is pretty good, and they never get exhausted because you replace them every hour. Requires an initial hour of setup, sure, but after that you're good to go.

    Detect Magic likewise comes up pretty often for investigation purposes. Tiny Hut for camping safely. They're definitely not minor things. I wouldn't call them "overpowered" or "broken" or anything but they're definitely *significant*.
    Phantom steeds can also pull wagons, so you can get by with 1-2 of them for the whole party if needs be.

    I do wish 5e had made the 3.5 and earlier edition CL-based upgrades into upcast options for phantom steed, though. As-is, it's...not really worth a third level spell. It's not much better than a regular horse, and the awkwardness of recasting every hour (when casting takes 10 minutes) makes it gameplay-wise transparent, but in a weird place RP-wise.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    I’ve always found Ritual Casting to be very helpful in play. Alarm, Detect Magic and Identify, FF, Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, and Telepathic Bond, are all very useful.

    Getting these without having to use a slot, changes how a party can play. Other Rituals, I’ve found, are still helpful but more niche. Great for a Wizard to have them though.
    Last edited by RSP; 2021-10-22 at 11:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    Seems like they also only get new spells up to 17th level...

    With this many restrictions, i can't see ever choosing sorcerer over wizard here...

    This is the first time I've ever seen Bard have a larger number of spells known, and they can choose spells from other lists...
    And their starting list contains a lot of good spells.

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    Default Re: Compared to 3.5e/Pathfinder, why play a sorcerer over a wizard in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Every 5e game I've been in, rituals were a big deal, with the exception of the one where the DM seemed to think stopping for 10 minutes to do anything meant we had too much free time on our hands. That game also only lasted a couple of sessions. (This was not its only problem.)
    To be clear I'm not saying its weak I'm just saying a lot of players don't care. It's like Inspiring Leader which is an amazing feat but IME lots of people aren't that interested in it because its just a support ability and people would rather deal more damage and cast more spells.
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