Conjurer Wizard VS Shepard Druid

[jaappleton]

Strictly utilizing the Summon spells introduced in Tasha's and beyond. Sorry Conjure ____, but summoning too many minions bogs the fight down too much for my taste.

So, accounting for that

Which is the superior summoner?

Does it change based on tiers of play?

Also account for the spell list. Not JUST for the Summon X spells, but also for the spell lists as a whole.

Finally, consider this: Assume you have a reasonable DM who is willing to work with you on what magic items might drop at the appropriate level. So if you believe there's a pretty decent shot you'll have Rare Item X at level 11, factor that in.

I know this is a hugely vague question, but... Spitball with me here.

[Amnestic]

Druids get Beast (2nd), Fey (3rd) and Elemental (4th).
Wizards get Fey, Undead, Shadowspawn (3rd), Aberration, Construct, Elemental (4th), and Fiend (6th)

Both(?) might get draconic spirit (5th) not read Fizban's yet but they did in the UA.

Useful wizard features for summoning doesn't come online until 10th (can't break concentration) and 14th (+30 temp HP flat)
Shepherd druid comes online earlier at 2nd (totem spirit for temp HP). Their 6th level feature is less good for the Summon options since they don't have hit dice so no HP scaling, but they do get magical attacks which will boost their damage output, and Guardian Spirits at 10th will give them additional healing each turn if you're nearby (30' radius)

Wizards have the more flexible summon (and arguably spell) list, but druids are the better summoners, even if you're limiting yourself to Summon and not Conjure spells - their supporting features come online sooner and they're better than the wizard's - temp HP also buffs your party too. If you're focusing on summons, it's not difficult to make it very hard for your concentration to break as a druid.

I think shepherd druid hedges it out, personally.

[RogueJK]

Amnestic nailed it.

For Summoning/Minionmancy in particular, Shepherd Druid is the clear winner due to their early/better buffs.

For the spell list as a whole, not just Summon spells, Wizard beats Druid.

All together, Shepherd Druid wins by a nose overall.

[KorvinStarmast]

Amnestic nailed it.

For Summoning/Minionmancy in particular, Shepherd Druid is the clear winner due to their early/better buffs.

For the spell list as a whole, not just Summon spells, Wizard beats Druid.

All together, Shepherd Druid wins by a nose overall.

Even without free ritual casting?

[RogueJK]

Even without free ritual casting?

Similar to the Conjuration Wizard's unbreakable Concentration ability that the Shepherd Druid can mimic through feats (Resilient/Warcaster) and spells/magic items (to boost CON or aid Concentration), the Shepherd Druid is able to mimic the Conjuration Wizard's ritual casting through a feat (Ritual Caster Wizard).

Whereas, on the flip side, the Conjuration Wizard can't mimic the Shepherd Druid's summons-boosting abilities through feats/spells/items.


Even discounting magic items that aren't a guarantee, considering a Shepherd Druid gets 5 ASI/feats - or 6 if VHuman/CLineage - over the course of their adventuring career, that's enough to grab Ritual Caster Wizard, Resilient CON, and Warcaster, plus still max out their WIS (even if using point buy or the standard array for stats). You could toss in Lucky for the 6th one available to VHumans/CLineages, for even less of a chance to fail Concentration, or even just +2 CON.

Then the Shepherd Druid would have: Same Ritual Casting as the Wizard. Functionally same Concentration boost as the Wizard, albeit being merely extremely unlikely to fail, rather than just guaranteed not to fail due to damage. Significantly greater staying power for their Summons. The only downside is the lesser spell list, but I still don't think that quite enough to propel the Wizard into the lead. (It's close though... Wizard spell list is that bonkers, especially at high levels.)

[jaappleton]

Even encompassing the entirely of the spell lists available? Wizards get Shield, Wall of Force, etc

Druids get healing, shield proficiency, some armor

What about magic items? Anything in particular tip the scales? It only works on a Wizard, but the Planecaller's Codex is one I'm a large fan of (Tasha's item).

[Nhym]

I would always and forever advocate for the Shepherd as the superior summoner. The Druid kit in general just fits better with summoning and it's easier to have more survivability as a druid, since survivability is #1 for summoners.

[tokek]

Even encompassing the entirely of the spell lists available? Wizards get Shield, Wall of Force, etc

Druids get healing, shield proficiency, some armor

What about magic items? Anything in particular tip the scales? It only works on a Wizard, but the Planecaller's Codex is one I'm a large fan of (Tasha's item).

Druid also get wildshape, that's an amazing out of combat ability for a Shepherd Druid. Ritual casting is great but the top spell every one wants from it is Find Familiar and Druids now have their own Wild Companion anyway (that costs no gold). Speech of the Woods is effectively always-on speak with animals, again very useful as a utility ability.

I would suggest you reconsider the Conjure spells - nobody makes you ask for anything other than the top CR creature and something like a Giant Constrictor Snake or Polar Bear is a pretty good summons - benefiting fully from all the Shepherd abilities at level 6. They don't clog up combat any more than anything else.

If we are looking at Rare items then Staff of the Woodlands is one of the most unreasonably ridiculous Rare items in the game for what it does. No guarantee of getting one, obviously. It does the same as Very Rare items for a Wizard (and they are bonkers good).

Shepherd Druid is really just such a good minionmancer its hard to beat.

[sithlordnergal]

Even encompassing the entirely of the spell lists available? Wizards get Shield, Wall of Force, etc

Druids get healing, shield proficiency, some armor

What about magic items? Anything in particular tip the scales? It only works on a Wizard, but the Planecaller's Codex is one I'm a large fan of (Tasha's item).

I mean, if you were to look at the entirety of the spell lists, you end up with one of two results:

1) You restrict part of the Druid's spell list. Sheppard Druid just barely comes out ahead because the base Druid spell list is almost as strong and varied as the Wizard spell list, and Wild Shape is a crazy strong ability.

or

2) You do not restrict the Druid spell list and Sheppard Druid blows all minionmacer classes out of the water because Conjure Animals is just that strong of a spell when you have the Sheppard Druid's abilities. 16 cr 1/4th beasts, all with magical attacks and buffed HP for the cost of a 5th level spell is nuts.

I can't really think of any items that would cause the advantage to shift towards Wizards...

Edit: High levels also fail to help the Wizard. Wizards get Wish, Druids gain the ability to ignore all spell components that have no cost and aren't consumed.

[Hael]

Conjure X are just better spells than what the wizards get summoning wise (even summon greater demon and Planar Binding) assuming the DM plays them fairly, so advantage Shepherd for the most part.

At lvl 13, Simulacrum probably shifts the crown to the Conjurer but thats probably the most broken spell in the game...

I'd also argue the Chronurgist is a better summoner than the Conjurer anyway.

[Frogreaver]

Druid is the best tier 1 summoner (wizard gets nothing there).
I vote Warlock as the best tier 2 summoner.

Between just the wizard and the druid (with no conjure animals), I'd go with wizard from tier 2 on. The non-concentration spells he gets for support are a bit better (and he gets more higher level slots due to arcane recovery).

[jaappleton]

Druid is the best tier 1 summoner (wizard gets nothing there).
I vote Warlock as the best tier 2 summoner.

Between just the wizard and the druid (with no conjure animals), I'd go with wizard from tier 2 on. The non-concentration spells he gets for support are a bit better (and he gets more higher level slots due to arcane recovery).

.....Interesting.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your Warlock thoughts?

[Captain Panda]

Strictly utilizing the Summon spells introduced in Tasha's and beyond. Sorry Conjure ____, but summoning too many minions bogs the fight down too much for my taste.

So, accounting for that

If you aren't using conjure animals, don't play a shepherd. It's pretty much that simple. It's "conjure animals" the subclass.

[Mitchellnotes]

.....Interesting.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your Warlock thoughts?

In tier 2, locks get 2 spells a short rest. Using them for the strongest available summons is a pretty good use of the slot. Additionally, being able to spam summon greater demons can be very effective. Rods of the pact keeper also increase save dc (making it more likely to keep the demon) and can be available in this range.

This isn't even getting into the mark of storms warlock summoning

[Valmark]

If you aren't using conjure animals, don't play a shepherd. It's pretty much that simple. It's "conjure animals" the subclass.

Admittedly, Conjure Animals does break at higher levels as damage and ACs of enemies increases- and that's without considering the DMs who let all animals be dispelled with a single Dispel Magic.

Only half of one feature doesn't work with the Summon X spells anyway.

[Frogreaver]

.....Interesting.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your Warlock thoughts?

1. 2 highest level slots that recharge on short rest means you tend to be able to summon more higher level summons than druids or wizards (higher level summons get more hp/damage/etc).

As a a example - at level 7 If one assumes 6 combats per day with 2 short rests the warlock can use a level 4 slot to summon a fresh summon fey with 2 attacks in each combat. He can then proceed to use EB on his remaining turns.

A Druid has 2 level 4 slots? A wizard can get 3 by using arcane recovery. That’s a huge difference in effectiveness.

2. You have strong non concentration options in EB with invocations.

3. You can have good ac without feat/multiclass investment. You can even boost concentration saves with invocations now. Meaning there’s more room to increase charisma.

[Captain Panda]

and that's without considering the DMs who let all animals be dispelled with a single Dispel Magic.

Dispelling all of them is a very dubious reading of dispel magic. Though enemies that dispel aren't likely to be super common in any case.