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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I can actually buy people being polyglots, given that the average person in the EU apparently speaks anywhere between 1.5 and 3.6 languages. And PCs would definitely be the kind of people that'd increase that average, since they travel around a bunch and talk to and/or stab a lot of interesting people.

    That being said, the fact that D&D makes you fluent in every language you can speak is a little bit much...
    I think the being fluent is more because there's no good way to represent the mechanics of being partially fluent. Handing out say Disadvantage on say Persuasion/Deception checks is both extremely harsh and not particularly realistic as it all depends on the situation, sometimes it would be a penalty and sometimes it would be an advantage. And for example eavesdropping on a conversation in a language where you are only semi-fluent wouldn't technically impact the DC but instead what information the DM gives out.

    So I understand why the default is the way it is in 5e, even though I do think you can make fluency/languages/dialects more important.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Yeah, I think a smoother system would be to just take a note of how you picked up your languages, as a flavor thing.

    You're a Sage? Your grammar is a overly formal, and you might mispronounce a few words that you've only ever seen written down.

    You're a Sailor? Your vocabulary in your additional languages is probably going to be pretty darn vulgar.

    Stuff like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    I think the being fluent is more because there's no good way to represent the mechanics of being partially fluent. Handing out say Disadvantage on say Persuasion/Deception checks is both extremely harsh and not particularly realistic as it all depends on the situation, sometimes it would be a penalty and sometimes it would be an advantage. And for example eavesdropping on a conversation in a language where you are only semi-fluent wouldn't technically impact the DC but instead what information the DM gives out.

    So I understand why the default is the way it is in 5e, even though I do think you can make fluency/languages/dialects more important.
    I actually have a rule for this in my current campaign — High Ingfaltish is a creole between Low Ingfaltish (the language primarily spoken by the common folk) and Sietok (the language primarily spoken by the ruling class). Someone who speaks High Ingfaltish is capable of speaking with speakers of the other two languages (and vice-versa), but you might run into Disadvantage on Deception, Insight, or Persuasion checks that hinge on wordplay or precise wording.

    Hilariously, this has allowed my party to communicate with each other despite not actually having a single common language (the Rogue, Ranger, and Sorcerer all speak Low Ingfaltish, while the Ranger and Bard speak High Ingfaltish).
    Last edited by Amechra; 2021-10-26 at 04:59 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    The world as a whole? Kind of depends. Elves, yes - they've got a heck of a lot of time on their hands, writing is a great way to communicate over long distances when you don't have electricity, so no reason not to. Dwarves, yes - similar reasons. Halflings, gnomes, probably. Humans ...

    ... that's where things get difficult. Relatively short lives, the farmers need their kids working, and so forth, versus the advantage of being able to keep accounts, enter into written agreements, read the postings, and so forth, and so forth. The problem there is that literacy undermines power: you can't lie to people who can read when they can read the law or the holy book or the contract themselves. So, if the culture is modeled on an absolute monarch and a powerful nobility lording it over relatively powerless serfs and peasants, then no, not much literacy there. If the culture is more a Roman or Greek or Renaissance model, then yes, quite a bit of literacy, it's how you keep from getting ripped off. If the world is big enough to have both types represented, then you've got some areas with high literacy and others with very little. Mine is mixed. I've got frontier areas that depend pretty heavily on carrier pigeons and post riders.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Yeah, I think a smoother system would be to just take a note of how you picked up your languages, as a flavor thing.

    You're a Sage? Your grammar is a overly formal, and you might mispronounce a few words that you've only ever seen written down.

    You're a Sailor? Your vocabulary in your additional languages is probably going to be pretty darn vulgar.

    Stuff like that.



    I actually have a rule for this in my current campaign — High Ingfaltish is a creole between Low Ingfaltish (the language primarily spoken by the common folk) and Sietok (the language primarily spoken by the ruling class). Someone who speaks High Ingfaltish is capable of speaking with speakers of the other two languages (and vice-versa), but you might run into Disadvantage on Deception, Insight, or Persuasion checks that hinge on wordplay or precise wording.

    Hilariously, this has allowed my party to communicate with each other despite not actually having a single common language (the Rogue, Ranger, and Sorcerer all speak Low Ingfaltish, while the Ranger and Bard speak High Ingfaltish).
    That's exactly it, players should determine how they know the language and what dialect/accents their characters have and then depending on the situation the DM determines when advantage/disadvantage applies to speaking with a particular accent/dialect. Trying to talk your way past the city guard then speaking Sietok gives advantage, interviewing commoners as part of a murder investigation and speaking Sietok gives disadvantage. Making languages matter isn't about fluency, it's about NPCs believing you are one of "them", so long as there are multiple "thems" then there's no optimized choice there's simply who do you represent/come across as.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    I know I mentioned it before, but I can't help think that the existence of pure, unchanging, preexisting, absolute languages out there in the cosmos... Ones that people can be born with knowledge of or suddenly know fully and completely after a magic accident or the like... Greatly influences the stability, uniformity, and availability of linguistics and literacy. Heck, every gutteral pre-literate society is one stray lightning bolt away from a storm-sorcerer bringing them a fully formed language and alphabet.

    In fact, I'd be somewhat surprised if nearly all languages spoken anywhere except the most extremely isolated (in the planar sense) places can't trace their origin back to one of those primal languages... Elven from Sylvan (with a touch of Celestial); Dwarven from Giantish which is from Primordial; Common using almost unrecognizably degraded draconic phenomena; etc.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    ,....Common using almost unrecognizably degraded draconic phenomena; etc.
    You know, "Common" is probably my biggest pet peeve in the whole of D&D. It's such a minor thing but it is infinitely irritating. I know it sounds petty, but here in real life we have so many languages. Just us plain and simple puny humans. We have in fact had so many languages that some of them are lost forever. We have languages that rely entirely on sound, with no written component at all. We have languages with written components ranging from the extremely simple to the absurdly complex.

    Why is common considered so...basic? I understand the reasoning behind not saying "english" or "french" or "mandarin" or any other real-world language. But why the assumption that because it is "common" it is "simple", or "degraded" or any other sort of simplistic. D&D repeatedly mentions humans are some of the most "versatile" humanoids, so why is it their language doesn't reflect that?

    Sorry, minor rant. "Language" in D&D really bothers me in part for this reason. I wouldn't mind handing out a half-dozen language proficiencies if the world was suggested to be populated with a dozen or so languages per species.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    I mean, most settings do that. FR has dozens of languages, so does Darksun. In my setting 'common' is the language of a single island nation that is used by most human merchants and many sailors, and well travelled people tend to pick it up eventually.

    I suspect there is less variability linguistically than we see in the real world though. Very long lived races would keep the drift more static, and immortal beings (including the Gods) may have an interest in keeping things 'right'. That, coupled with the 'etched unerringly into the bones of the cosmos' planar languages would work to slow linguistic diversity.

    In fact, sometimes I wonder why we have some of the languages we do in the first place. Why is there Elven when Sylvan exists (and every pixie that springs into life at the sound of a child's laughter knows it)? It almost has to be a constructed language; one that started as a secret code or something that developed into a full language later; or something the Gods encouraged to separate the elves from their Fey roots or something.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    There is the "flavor" aspect of how you want languages/literacy to be in your campaign and then there are the actual "rules" of how you want language/literacy to apply to your gameplay.

    As with most things in D&D the two have to somewhat co-exist (and sometimes difficult to co-exist).

    As stated previously, how would literacy effect game play "at the table"? I would think you are trying to apply advantage/disadvantage to certain interactions, either with NPC's or with written objects. And that is fine. Some of that would add great flavor/context to situations.

    But you also can't bog yourself down with that too much, which is why I think having one universal "common tongue" just makes it easier to DM. It might sound fun to have the characters walk into a town where they don't know the dialect and communication is difficult. But having to deal with that "at the table" for every NPC interaction might get tedious after the 3rd/4th time it happens. And if the campaign is multiple sessions? Whew.... even harder. Eventually, I would suspect you start to cut corners... "Now that you've been in the town for 2 weeks, you start to understand the dialect better.... now let's talk at the table like normal"... stuff like that.

    Obviously, it's all up the DM. I completely understand WHY 5e does languages the way it does. There is a practicality and playability that comes with a universal language and only black/white knowledge of other languages. Flavor-wise that is rather dull. But I understand it.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    ...Why is common considered so...basic? I understand the reasoning behind not saying "english" or "french" or "mandarin" or any other real-world language. But why the assumption that because it is "common" it is "simple", or "degraded" or any other sort of simplistic. ...
    Where does it say that Common is simple or degraded?

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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    My usual gameworld the majority of the common folk are barely literate, the 'middle class' of major settlements are fluent in their primary language with smatterings of a second or third and the upper class, mages/priests, nobility, etc are usually fluent in 2-3 languages.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
    Where does it say that Common is simple or degraded?
    I just checked the PHB and the DMG; based on the indexed pages for Language or Common (which redirects to Language), I see nothing in either book. And while other Languages are given descriptions (e.g. "Elvish is fluid, with subtle intonations and intricate grammar. Elven literature is rich and varied, and their songs and poems are famous among other races. Many bards learn their language so they can add
    Elvish ballads to their repertoires."), Common is described in neither the first appearance for a Race nor in the Human block.

    It seems like it's projected in (with reasonable real-world assumptions perhaps for parts of those descriptions based on assumptions -- and sometimes myths -- about pidgins and creoles, but nonetheless with those being assumptions that aren't in those books). Maybe the SCAG has a setting-particular description; I didn't check there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    My usual gameworld the majority of the common folk are barely literate, the 'middle class' of major settlements are fluent in their primary language with smatterings of a second or third and the upper class, mages/priests, nobility, etc are usually fluent in 2-3 languages.


    I'm guessing you're using "fluent" to mean "literate" (rather than simply fluency) in the latter cases?
    Last edited by PhantomSoul; 2021-10-27 at 10:07 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
    Where does it say that Common is simple or degraded?
    I was literally referring to the words used by the person I quoted with the use of the word "degraded".

    And simple is inferred from the fact that it isn't described at all, while the other languages have notes about their complexity, their fluidity, and other non-simple elements.
    Last edited by False God; 2021-10-27 at 10:29 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    I was literally referring to the words used by the person I quoted with the use of the word "degraded".

    And simple is inferred from the fact that it isn't described at all, while the other languages have notes about their complexity, their fluidity, and other non-simple elements.
    I said a 'degraded form of draconic'... Like elven is a degraded form of Sylvan; and Dwarven is a degraded form (through some intermediaries) of primordial... Because any setting that has 'real true languages' unlike anything found in the real world, chances are all but the most absolutely isolated populations will be speaking languages derived from those millennia-old unaltered tongues unless intentionally constructing a language to avoid doing so (I'm looking at you, druidic)

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomSoul View Post
    I'm guessing you're using "fluent" to mean "literate" (rather than simply fluency) in the latter cases?
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    I'm guessing you're using "fluent" to mean "literate" (rather than simply fluency) in the latter cases?
    Fun fact about my setting — two of the human languages in the area where the campaign is happening have no written form, including the native tongue of the ruling class. Of the other three languages, two of them share the same written form and the last one has two different ways of writing it.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    While it’s not being run by D&D rules my current campaign setting could fit the bill well enough.

    Funnily enough, the party’s desire to explore fantastical wilderness has led them into few scenarios that question the literacy of common folk. As things go I don’t see the need existing in most societies for every individual to be literate. Duervna is without a doubt the most literate nation that bothers to interact with the rest of the world. They’re rather fond of putting magic runes on most everything and their magical prowess has been applied to agriculture yielding more leisure time for the average citizen. Given their magic is mostly region limited they haven’t exported their culture all that much.

    Dwarves have higher literacy as expected given the prevalence of trade in their cultures. The same can be said to a greater extent for the Lengi, straightforward speaking four armed gorilla people who have a ‘challenge accepted’ mindset when it comes to most tasks, trade included.

    Beyond that? Most people just know enough to do what they do, generally bits and pieces related to trade.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Prior to the printing press the majority of the population wasn't Literate and it always made sense to me that literacy rates in d&d would be similar

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by jk7275 View Post
    Prior to the printing press the majority of the population wasn't Literate and it always made sense to me that literacy rates in d&d would be similar
    But many (if not most) D&D worlds do have the printing press (or the functional equivalent). And things like wanted posters (printed), broadsheets (printed), publishing houses, etc are common in many of the worlds.

    D&D is not medieval. It's anachronistic (because fictional).
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    But many (if not most) D&D worlds do have the printing press (or the functional equivalent). And things like wanted posters (printed), broadsheets (printed), publishing houses, etc are common in many of the worlds.

    D&D is not medieval. It's anachronistic (because fictional).
    Having printing press or something equivalent existed does not necessarily mean high literacy rate. I did see claims that it took more then 200 years after the printing press for the literacy rate. to go over 50%

    As a side note I been involved with D&D 1st and tend to join groups that are old school, and have worlds heavily based off medieval europe

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by jk7275 View Post
    Having printing press or something equivalent existed does not necessarily mean high literacy rate. I did see claims that it took more then 200 years after the printing press for the literacy rate. to go over 50%

    As a side note I been involved with D&D 1st and tend to join groups that are old school, and have worlds heavily based off medieval europe
    True. But I was pushing back against the opposite, that D&D doesn't have the printing press and thus shouldn't have high literacy. It does have the printing press, and can (but does not necessarily need to) have high literacy. You can choose either way, but don't blame it on missing the printing press.

    And as far as old school == based on medieval europe...D&D has been anachronistic since day 1. It's had alien spaceships, out-of-period weapons and armor, "feudal" (but not in the real sense) governments, high literacy, inappropriate technology, etc since the very beginning. It's never been based on medieval europe. And we're in the 5e forum, which is even less based on medieval europe than any edition (except maybe 4e). 5e is based on D&D, mostly. With circular influence from popular media (most of which was influenced by earlier editions of D&D). It's not realistic. It's not designed to be realistic. It's an entirely different fictional world with entirely different history.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Several factors are present that would increase literacy above historical European levels... Not the least of which is wizardry demanding literacy

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How Literate are your D&D Worlds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Several factors are present that would increase literacy above historical European levels... Not the least of which is wizardry demanding literacy
    I'm not sure how much difference that would make in the grand scheme of things. Wizards would make a rather small percentage of the population, and learning to read could be one of the first steps for a young apprentice wizard-to-be. Medieval Europe had scribes and scholars and such despite being rather low in literacy overall. The real issue is going to be what is happening out in the farms and villages and would that increase or decrease literacy, since the bulk of the population is out there in the farms and villages.

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