Why play Monk when the updated Pugilist is a thing

[Bjarkmundur]

I just found the preview for the updated Pugilist (2019, i think), and I'm pretty much never using Monk again, unless a player already has experience playing it.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Yakk]

Probably because nobody provides a link to the Pugalist when talking about it.

It is sad really.

[Bjarkmundur]

When talking about the monk, or the Pugilist?


Being a DMsguild bestseller for 5 years, I'm pretty sure the Pugilist is as much core content and the artificer, at least for the homebrewing community.

https://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/246693


Do you think DMs should offer the Pugilist as a monk substitute to newer players?

[Amechra]

Because using the Pugilist would require me to A) make a DM's Guild account and B) shell out $5 for the whole class?

[strangebloke]

because I want to be mystic kungfu man, not regular punch dude? (and because my regular punch dude is a battlemaster.)

[Bjarkmundur]

This forum really is notorious for unhelpful comments xD


Let's set the scene.

- POV you're the DM
- Player has no experience with Monks
- Player wants to be unarmed compatant
- You know the monk needs a fix, and often doesn't give new players the power fantasy they are looking for.
- Is there any reason not to give him the Pugilist free preview alongside the option of playing a Monk?

[Yakk]

When talking about the Pugalist, people don't provide a link to the class.

Happened here. I mean, they provided a link to a link to a sign up sheet where you can look at a preview of the class?

I don't see that ever replacing the monk, where I can google "5e monk" and the top hit is a direct working set of rules for a monk.

I don't see anything that is hidden between a sign up sheet as being surprising people don't use it.

[strangebloke]

This forum really is notorious for unhelpful comments xD


Let's set the scene.

- POV you're the DM
- Player has no experience with Monks
- Player wants to be unarmed compatant
- You know the monk needs a fix, and often doesn't give new players the power fantasy they are looking for.
- Is there any reason not to give him the Pugilist free preview alongside the option of playing a Monk?

Look, you're not giving us much to go off here. What do you view as the major shortcomings (mechanical or thematic) of monk as a class, and why do you feel the pugilist addresses these issues? Why is it strictly better? Did you play as one? What are some good experiences you or someone else had with this class?

As it stands it kind of seems like you're shilling some homebrew but not working very hard for it.

Personally I don't think there's much wrong with the monk and its got a lot more subclasses, support, and playtesting than this pugilist class. So I'm starting out skeptical. But after I found the full size preview, it looks kind of bad. Many of the features are just monk features with "moxie" slotted in for ki. "The Old One Two" is just flurry of blows. "Moxie-fueled fists" is "Ki-fueled fists" except it doesn't make any sense. Like what does that mean? Moxie isn't associated with internal energy, so 'fueling' things with moxie makes even less than ki as 'fuel.' This is a strength-focused class, so if you want to play a wisened master this isn't the class for you.

CON for light armor and AC which makes me uneasy. When I first saw this I thought it was assuming no armor like the monk, which I thought was weak but meant to be balanced against the THP. But they have light armor here which makes it better, though still not extraordinary. This seems balanced? Sort of? I think if you're using brace to shore up your health you're going to find your damage very lacking.

At fourth level, you can make yourself resistant to BSP damage for a minute. Holy features batman! Wait. You take a level of exhaustion for doing this? What?

At fifth level you can give yourself disadvantage to deal maximized punching damage.... okay. Sort of like GWM or SS I guess.

....Shake it Off at 7th level is literally just Stillness of mind but they didn't fix the wording

Look, homebrew is hard, and I don't want to be overly negative, but this is rough.

[Ignimortis]

I don't see any reason to play a pugilist over monk. If I wanted an unarmed fighter with no special things about them, I'd just take Fighter with Unarmed Fighting Style. Monks are fun precisely because they can run on walls and water, block arrows and move around. Also because they don't have to be completely unarmed - Kensei ahoy!

[GalacticAxekick]

Why play Monk when the updated Pugilist is a thing?

My answer is "because I've never heard of the pugilist". I think a few people have already mentioned this, but even the most popular homebrew in the world is still INCREDIBLY obscure relative to official material. Without a link to the homebrew itself (which you did provide later, I'm glad!) you shouldn't expect a helpful response.

What are your thoughts on this?

This is a pretty open-ended question! I really don't know what problem you want us to solve, which might contribute to the lack of helpful answers.


I'm going to look over the Pugilist and let you know what I think of it. You can tell me if I'm answering your question or not.

Spoiler: Feature-by-Feature Pugilist Review

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Fisticuffs is essentially Strength-based Martial Arts. I've always disliked how Monks have no use for Strength, so this is a nice thematic change. Being able to grapple as a bonus action offers some much-needed versatility to the martial combat, which is a nice mechanical change. Great feature!

Iron Chin, likewise, is Strength-based Unarmored Defense. I like the thematic pivot from grace to grit, and I like being dependent on fewer stats. Great feature!

Moxie is fundamentally the same as the Monk's Ki, and the Old One-Two is identical to Flurry of Blows, so whatever. Stick and Move gives up the best parts of Step of the Wind to let me shove, which sucks. But Brace Up is far more versatile and useful than Patient Defense, which is great.

Street Smart is a good but terribly misplaced feature. You shouldn't tie unrelated abilities (like unarned combat and street smarts) to one another, or else you end up without street-dumb martial artists. This feature would fit neatly into a subclass, but is frustrating as a part of the main class.

Bloodied but Unbowed is the first hint that the authors design philosophy is off. It doesnt allow you to do anything new. It doesn't expand your options at all. It just doubles the resources you get per rest and brings you back from the brink of death. It let's you do more of the same. I want Deflect Missiles back.

Dig Deep is balanced, I guess, but also really boring. I would either make the pros and cons more dramatic, or replace it with a feature that let's you do something completely new. Like Slow Fall.

Haymaker singlehandedly kills my interest in playing the Pugilist. Haymaker encapsulates everything wrong the the class's design philosophy.

Haymaker replaces the ability to shatter an enemy's defense against attacks and two different saves, the ability to immobilize a target, the ability to knock flying creature out of the sky, the ability to break concentration on spells, the ability to end grapples, truly the most versatile tool in the Monk's arsenal...

...with the ability to punch harder.

I have no interest in dealing more damage, having more hit points, or having higher AC. I have no interest in bigger numbers. I think the joy of D&D (like all games) is making choices, and so I prefer having a variety of unique options over a small number of high-power options.

Moxie-Fueled Fists is just Ki-Empowered Strikes. It's fine

Fancy Footwork is a fine alternative to Evasion, given that the class doesn't have Dex saves to begin with.

Shake It Off is just Stillness of Mind, so it's fine.

Down But Not Out is yet another Big Number feature. I much prefer the Unarmored Movement improvement, which gives the Monk incredible new exploration options.

School of Hard Knocks is great! It gives the Pugilist more much-needed defense against mental effects, without outright eliminating fun challenges like poison and disease. I prefer it over Purity of Body

Rabble Rouser seems odd to me, since it should apply to basically any high-level adventurer. I think social status should emerge organically in gameplay, instead of being forced through class features. It makes more sense than Tongue of the Sun, though, so good effort on the homebrewer's part.

Unbreakable is basically Diamond Soul, focused on martial saves. It's fine.

Herculean is better than Timeless Body, but then, EVERYTHING is better than Timeless Body. lol

Fighting Spirit is yet another Big Number feature. I prefer Empty Body, though obviously that isn't fitting for a Pugilist.

Peak Physical Condition too is Big Numbers.

Overall I think the Puglist has some good ideas, and that the Monk could use many of them, but that it throws away too much of the Monk for no good reason. It makes the monk stronger and more durable, but also significantly more boring

[JNAProductions]

Because it costs $5 more than what I've already paid, for something of unknown quality, and when I am perfectly capable of homebrewing myself.

[GalacticAxekick]

Spoiler: Squared Circle Subclass Review

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Groundwork is underwhelming. It makes the Pugilist better at keeping enemies grappled and knocking grappled enemies prone, but doesn't offer many truly new options. I think Quick Pin should have no moxie cost, and I think it should be possible to strangle a target, and I think it should be possible to inflict status conditions such as Blinded and Restrained to a target.

Meat Shield is handy, but mostly passive. It makes the Pugilist better at what he was already doing. At this level, I'd rather see a feature that helps the pugilist face his greatest weaknesses: enemies too distant, too large, or too intangible to grapple.

Heavyweight is exactly what 6th level needed! I'd would drop this to 6th level and demand a feature to replace it

Clean Finish is Big Numbers. Yawn.

Spoiler: Sweet Science Subclass Review

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Cross Counter is handy but boring. Its damage via ordinary attacks and defense against ordinary attacks.

1 2 3 4 is even MORE damage. Really? Knocking the target prone.

Float Like A Butterfly... does not add anything new, but merely rewards you for continuing to do the same.

Knockout is ready cool! This should be the sibckass defining featurei this should come at 3rd level! Why do I need to be a 17th level adventurer, practically a demigod, to throw a knockout punch?

[Garfunion]

Why play a Pugilist when you can play a Barbarian instead. There are some barbarian archetypes that work well with unarmed attacks along with the unarmed fighting style feature.

I was actually thinking about creating an unarmed fighting style storm heralded barbarian.