The Wall - Making an undefeatable party

[Greywander]

Partly inspired by this video (which is funny because I've never played Darkest Dungeon). I've made a post on this topic before, and I don't know that a lot has changed since then, though I think I've refined my knowledge of the game and how to optimize.

Often those looking to optimize will focus on damage output, my perspective is that it's generally easier to reduce damage taken than it is to increase damage output. Doubling your damage output is really hard. Cutting your damage taken in half is more accessible, and has a similar end result in that you're dealing twice as much damage for a given amount of damage taken. It's not quite so simple, but it's a good enough start. And besides, if you're so good at staying alive, it can help you conserve resources for more difficult fights. All in all, I think it's simply a natural consequence of how 5e was designed, and in a different system it might make more sense to aim for overwhelming offense instead.

So, let's say we have a four person party. Who do we take, and how do they work together to maximize defense? Something important to keep in mind is that, since D&D doesn't have any kind of MMO-style aggro mechanic, each member of the party needs to be reasonably tanky.

First up is an Artillerist Artificer. The primary benefit is their protector cannon, which allows them to give temp HP to the entire party as a bonus action, and as early as 3rd level. If your opponents are particularly weak, they might be unable to overcome the temp HP at all, causing the party to end combat with 0 damage taken. This can also combo with other feature in a very effective manner. After 15th level, you can also use a second cannon (protectors don't stack, so pick one of the two damage cannons) and your cannons now provide half cover (+2 to AC and DEX saves) to your party.

That's not all the artificer offers, though. They also have a good slew of nice support spells, and artillerists get some good blasting spells, including Fireball. Sadly, the half caster progression does hurt them here, so they won't be as effective as a full caster, but you're getting a lot of other things that make up for this loss. One of those other things is guarantied access to magic items via your infusions.

Next is a Redemption Paladin. Paladin, of course, gets the nice Aura of Protection to help buff the entire party's saves. With this in mind, maxing our CHA is crucial; we can rely on a magic item from the artificer to boost our STR, allows us to grab more feats. Any paladin subclass would work for this, but I think Redemption is especially good for this context. Redemption can take a hit in the place of an ally (good if we still have temp HP and they don't), and after 15th level can regenerate while below half HP. After 15th level, they should step up as the primary tank thanks to their regeneration. They get a nice capstone, too, giving them resistance to all enemy damage so long as they haven't attacked that enemy yet (so fight enemies one at a time).

Paladins also have good single target nova with their smites. But don't spend all your spell slots on smites, because paladins have some pretty strong spells on their list, too. Wrathful Smite is excellent for shutting down a single target, better on a Conquest paladin, but still good. Command has some good uses, and upcasts well. A 2nd level Bless will affect the whole party. And so on.

Our third member is a Life Cleric. The artficer buffs AC and hands out temp HP, the paladin buffs saves, intercepts hits, and regenerates, and the cleric will heal back any damage that still manages to get through. Basically, our first two members already do a pretty good job of minimizing damage, which only makes the cleric more effective since every point of HP healed will last proportionally longer than on a less optimized party. Before, our defenses were strong, but a persistent enemy could still wear them down over time; the addition of a Life Cleric to the party has a multiplicative effect on our longevity, so much so that it becomes exponentially more difficult for an enemy to outlast us.

If you can, try to barter away Divine Strike and martial weapon proficiencies in exchange for Potent Spellcasting so you can ignore STR (except for armor) and use cantips instead. If the DM doesn't allow it, you're probably still better off taking Blessed Strikes and using cantrips anyway. Since the Life Cleric heals themselves whenever they heal others, they will make a good primary tank until 15th level when the paladin gets regeneration. You also have Spirit Guardians to dish out some damage.

I'm not sure what to do for the fourth member. Artificer + paladin covers the essential core of defense, and cleric extends that defense by prolonging HP. Cavalier Fighter can eventually get infinite OAs, but not until 18th level, so I'm not it's worth playing 1 to 17 to get there. Ancestral Guardian Barbarian offers some more tanking ability, with the ability to distract a single enemy and greatly reduce their effectiveness against the party, as well as the ability to reduce damage to allies. Shepard Druid offers more healing and some decent minionmancy. We could also go the other way: now that our defenses are taken care of, we could shoot for a final member with strong offense, relying on the multiplicative effect that our high defense will have in providing more turns to deal damage. Whatever we do, that last party member should make sure to get medium or heavy armor and shield proficiency, so that they're still pretty resilient (unless they're a monk, in which case just focus on maxing both DEX and WIS and you're otherwise set for defense).

As with the previous thread, due to the short range on the protector cannon and paladin aura, we have to cluster up. This makes us susceptible to AoEs, however the paladin's aura will boost our saves, and the temp HP will take the edge off of any AoE damage, potentially negating it entirely. That's not all, we can take Shield Master on all of these characters, allowing them to negate AoE damage as a reaction if they pass the save. Not as good as Evasion, but better than nothing. The paladin and cleric can also take Heavy Armor Master, which will also extend how long the temp HP will last, not to mention real HP. We need at least two ASIs to max out our primary stats, but that will afford most of the party to take three feats. Resilient(CON or WIS) could be another good option for everyone to take. This leaves one feat left for the artificer; perhaps Inspiring Leader would be a good option, allowing the party to start each combat with much higher temp HP than the cannon can hand out and giving the artificer more flexibility on their first turn.

I guess I just really like playing defensively. It gives you more time to see what your opponent does and adapt accordingly. Enemies with little planning will fall easily to you, as they'll just keep doing the thing that didn't work the first time. Smarter enemies that will see your powerful defense and adapt to it will still have a tough time, especially if you don't present any weaknesses to attack. Meanwhile, while they're probing you to find a weak point, you can be moving to take them down. The mental image I have is that of a slow and ponderous machine of steel, lurching slowly forward. It doesn't move very fast, but nothing seems to slow it down, and it will eventually run you over and destroy you. It's not flashy, but the unstoppable juggernaut is still a neat concept.

[Bobthewizard]

This three person party is particularly susceptible to mobile, ranged enemies. Artillerist helps some but as a half caster they get their options a little late. I'd probably add a wizard to this to help with AOE damage, control, and utility.

The shepherd druid you mentioned would be amazing here, but they are all kinds of broken. Shepherd druid with the artificer's THP would be crazy. 8 wolves that regenerate d8+4 THP each round - although they wouldn't all get them each round. Have the paladin cast crusaders mantle for more offense.

At higher levels, despite the overlap with the artificer, you might want the paladin to pick up inspiring leader so everyone starts each fight with more THP - level plus Cha gets much higher than the d8 +INT of the artificer.

[icedraikon]

I'm thinking either a summoner or blaster. Summoner to add more frontline/distraction or a blaster to help thin enemy numbers. I agree with you that a Shepherd Druid would be fantastic, especially Conjure Animals + Protector cannon THP.

Genielocks are wonderful as well. Decent DPR with EB + Prof + Cha, good mobility with nonconcentration fly, decent summoning options. Dao is good for defensive, and if you need more blasting, Efreeti gets Fireball and Wall of Fire.

Or, of course, for blaster, a Sorcerer is always fun. Draconic Bloodline for AC+HP or Divine Soul for extra healing/defense. Or, of course, the Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorc x build for decent defense, access to level 1 cleric spells, and absolutely hilarious blasting options with Transmuted spell + Channel Divinity.

Wizards are always a safe pick as well.


As an off-note, why Redemption over Ancients? Obviously Redemption can heal at 15, but I feel like the resistance to spell damage at 6th from Ancients would be more valuable than an ability that doesn't come online until 15th level with Redemption. Especially because you're taking full damage that can't be mitigated or reduced with Redemption.

[Greywander]

This three person party is particularly susceptible to mobile, ranged enemies. Artillerist helps some but as a half caster they get their options a little late. I'd probably add a wizard to this to help with AOE damage, control, and utility.

In the previous thread, linked near the top of the OP, Peace cleric 1 / Abjurer wizard X was one of the combos I brought up that could be quite effective. So yeah, that's definitely an option, and would be a good addition to the party. There are other possible combos as well; a monk can chase down ranged enemies and beat them down, or a warlock could get crazy long range and snipe from a distance with EB. I came up with an eldritch sniper build not that long ago that maximizes the range on EB while also stacking a bunch of damage to it by combining genielock and dragon sorc to get an extra +CHA and +prof to the first bolt that hits (so you get the full bonus damage so long as you hit at least once).

The shepherd druid you mentioned would be amazing here, but they are all kinds of broken. Shepherd druid with the artificer's THP would be crazy. 8 wolves that regenerate d8+4 THP each round - although they wouldn't all get them each round. Have the paladin cast crusaders mantle for more offense.

Yeah, this was the first time I took a close look at Shepard druid, and they look pretty bonkers. Definitely a strong choice here.

At higher levels, despite the overlap with the artificer, you might want the paladin to pick up inspiring leader so everyone starts each fight with more THP - level plus Cha gets much higher than the d8 +INT of the artificer.

I did mention this in the OP; Inspiring Leader gives more temp HP than the protector cannon does, allowing you to enter combat in a slightly stronger position. It also frees the artificer up during that first round to do something besides immediately deploying their cannon (if you didn't already have it out) and possibly using their BA for something else. Anyone who doesn't take much damage will retain that higher temp HP later into the fight, as well. Inspiring Leader would be best on the paladin (or our fourth member, if they're a CHA class like warlock), but it actually still works reasonably well on non-CHA characters at higher levels.

The paladin probably wants to pick up HAM (to extend temp HP and healing), Shield Master (to evade AoEs), and Resilient(CON) (to maintain concentration and shrug off save-or-suck effects) or Warcaster (since their hands are full), and their two remaining ASIs are required to max CHA. So the paladin doesn't have the feat budget left to grab Inspiring Leader, but the artificer would since they can't take HAM. It's a common houserule to get a free feat at 1st level (which I endorse, as it makes for more interesting build variety at 1st level), which could open up some more possibilities.

I haven't thought much about race picks. Given that the artificer is the most vulnerable member out of the three we've specified (which isn't saying much, as they're all pretty tanky), maybe it would make sense to make them a tiefling and grab Flames of Phlegethos. That way, we can punish melee attackers with fire damage, discouraging them against attacking us. Yuan-ti are pretty strong with their poison immunity and magic resistance, and warforged get an AC bump. Half-orc gives us that extra safety net, so that if we get caught by surprise we can still recover from it. A halfling with Bountiful Luck would also really help the party out.

[Leon]

This three person party is particularly susceptible to mobile, ranged enemies..

Any number of party is susceptible to that if they don't factor in options to deal with it.

[Angelalex242]

I prefer Oath of Ancients over Redemption. That antimagic aura makes AOE damaging spells just about useless.

[Greywander]

I prefer Oath of Ancients over Redemption. That antimagic aura makes AOE damaging spells just about useless.

The problem is that it only applies to spells. Things like a dragon's breath weapon aren't even considered magical, and there are also plenty of effects that are magical but not a spell. Resistance to all spell damage might seem pretty broad, considering how many PC classes get spellcasting, but in terms of monsters it's actually a bit on the niche side. If you're worried about enemy mages, then you might be better off taking a Peace Cleric 1 / Abjurer Wizard X as your fourth member, given that they also get resistance to spell damage and advantage on saves vs. spells, and add their proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic and Counterspell checks.

Also, AoE effects (spells or not) are one of the big reasons everyone takes Shield Master. You do have to pass the save (unlike Evasion, a failed save isn't half damage), but you can negate the damage completely if you pass (as long as it's a DEX save; some AoEs use CON saves, a few use something else). Is it worth burning a whole feat for? Eh, YMMV. Since the strategy involved staying bunched up to benefit from the save aura and temp HP, something that can negate AoEs might be warranted.

[Angelalex242]

While magic items are by no means guaranteed, a Paladin's most famous weapon will handle the advantage on saves part. And the Holy Avenger applies to more things than the Ancients Aura. The Holy Avenger even goes out to 30 feet at tier 4, just like his natural auras.

[LudicSavant]

I'm not sure what to do for the fourth member.

Consider a Wizard. Especially late game, they have the craziest "cheat death" abilities around. After all, when you start getting into the really tanky parties, the main thing they have to worry about is the straight up shenanigans, and the Wizard has the tools and contingencies to deal with such things.

You could even make it a Jorasco Wizard to make it a fantastic healer (with eventually infinite healing) if you want. Though while that's good, it's still not the main reason you want a Wizard -- it's their ability to foil the kinds of things that would actually pierce extremely strong conventional defenses. As for good subclasses... Abjurer can get absurdly durable and can share some of that durability with others. Evoker has some particularly notable control and "the best defense is a good offense" tricks. Necromancer has its minion army. Chronurgy is just outright bananas. There's plenty of strong choices to be had.

Also more range and mobility certainly wouldn't hurt your party.

Bard is another option, with the likes of Glamour or Lore providing powerful defensive options, and able to steal at least a few of the Wizard's favorite tricks with Magical Secrets. As well as some of that "range and mobility" that we want.

I'm not sure what to do for the fourth member. Artificer + paladin covers the essential core of defense, and cleric extends that defense by prolonging HP. Cavalier Fighter can eventually get infinite OAs, but not until 18th level, so I'm not it's worth playing 1 to 17 to get there. Ancestral Guardian Barbarian offers some more tanking ability, with the ability to distract a single enemy and greatly reduce their effectiveness against the party, as well as the ability to reduce damage to allies. Shepard Druid offers more healing and some decent minionmancy. We could also go the other way: now that our defenses are taken care of, we could shoot for a final member with strong offense, relying on the multiplicative effect that our high defense will have in providing more turns to deal damage. Whatever we do, that last party member should make sure to get medium or heavy armor and shield proficiency, so that they're still pretty resilient (unless they're a monk, in which case just focus on maxing both DEX and WIS and you're otherwise set for defense).

Of the options you've mentioned, I think Shepherd Druid stands to add the most oomph to the party.

Cavalier is not really the best defensive Fighter. It's not bad, per se, it's just not as good as Rune Knights or the like can get.

Ancestral Guardian suffers from its relative narrowness. It's effective at mitigating conventional attack rolls from a lone enemy that you have already managed to attack... but that's something your party is already well-equipped to handle.

[kazaryu]

Partly inspired by this video (which is funny because I've never played Darkest Dungeon). I've made a post on this topic before, and I don't know that a lot has changed since then, though I think I've refined my knowledge of the game and how to optimize.

Often those looking to optimize will focus on damage output, my perspective is that it's generally easier to reduce damage taken than it is to increase damage output. Doubling your damage output is really hard. Cutting your damage taken in half is more accessible, and has a similar end result in that you're dealing twice as much damage for a given amount of damage taken. It's not quite so simple, but it's a good enough start. And besides, if you're so good at staying alive, it can help you conserve resources for more difficult fights. All in all, I think it's simply a natural consequence of how 5e was designed, and in a different system it might make more sense to aim for overwhelming offense instead.

So, let's say we have a four person party. Who do we take, and how do they work together to maximize defense? Something important to keep in mind is that, since D&D doesn't have any kind of MMO-style aggro mechanic, each member of the party needs to be reasonably tanky.

First up is an Artillerist Artificer. The primary benefit is their protector cannon, which allows them to give temp HP to the entire party as a bonus action, and as early as 3rd level. If your opponents are particularly weak, they might be unable to overcome the temp HP at all, causing the party to end combat with 0 damage taken. This can also combo with other feature in a very effective manner. After 15th level, you can also use a second cannon (protectors don't stack, so pick one of the two damage cannons) and your cannons now provide half cover (+2 to AC and DEX saves) to your party.

That's not all the artificer offers, though. They also have a good slew of nice support spells, and artillerists get some good blasting spells, including Fireball. Sadly, the half caster progression does hurt them here, so they won't be as effective as a full caster, but you're getting a lot of other things that make up for this loss. One of those other things is guarantied access to magic items via your infusions.

Next is a Redemption Paladin. Paladin, of course, gets the nice Aura of Protection to help buff the entire party's saves. With this in mind, maxing our CHA is crucial; we can rely on a magic item from the artificer to boost our STR, allows us to grab more feats. Any paladin subclass would work for this, but I think Redemption is especially good for this context. Redemption can take a hit in the place of an ally (good if we still have temp HP and they don't), and after 15th level can regenerate while below half HP. After 15th level, they should step up as the primary tank thanks to their regeneration. They get a nice capstone, too, giving them resistance to all enemy damage so long as they haven't attacked that enemy yet (so fight enemies one at a time).

Paladins also have good single target nova with their smites. But don't spend all your spell slots on smites, because paladins have some pretty strong spells on their list, too. Wrathful Smite is excellent for shutting down a single target, better on a Conquest paladin, but still good. Command has some good uses, and upcasts well. A 2nd level Bless will affect the whole party. And so on.

Our third member is a Life Cleric. The artficer buffs AC and hands out temp HP, the paladin buffs saves, intercepts hits, and regenerates, and the cleric will heal back any damage that still manages to get through. Basically, our first two members already do a pretty good job of minimizing damage, which only makes the cleric more effective since every point of HP healed will last proportionally longer than on a less optimized party. Before, our defenses were strong, but a persistent enemy could still wear them down over time; the addition of a Life Cleric to the party has a multiplicative effect on our longevity, so much so that it becomes exponentially more difficult for an enemy to outlast us.

If you can, try to barter away Divine Strike and martial weapon proficiencies in exchange for Potent Spellcasting so you can ignore STR (except for armor) and use cantips instead. If the DM doesn't allow it, you're probably still better off taking Blessed Strikes and using cantrips anyway. Since the Life Cleric heals themselves whenever they heal others, they will make a good primary tank until 15th level when the paladin gets regeneration. You also have Spirit Guardians to dish out some damage.

I'm not sure what to do for the fourth member. Artificer + paladin covers the essential core of defense, and cleric extends that defense by prolonging HP. Cavalier Fighter can eventually get infinite OAs, but not until 18th level, so I'm not it's worth playing 1 to 17 to get there. Ancestral Guardian Barbarian offers some more tanking ability, with the ability to distract a single enemy and greatly reduce their effectiveness against the party, as well as the ability to reduce damage to allies. Shepard Druid offers more healing and some decent minionmancy. We could also go the other way: now that our defenses are taken care of, we could shoot for a final member with strong offense, relying on the multiplicative effect that our high defense will have in providing more turns to deal damage. Whatever we do, that last party member should make sure to get medium or heavy armor and shield proficiency, so that they're still pretty resilient (unless they're a monk, in which case just focus on maxing both DEX and WIS and you're otherwise set for defense).

As with the previous thread, due to the short range on the protector cannon and paladin aura, we have to cluster up. This makes us susceptible to AoEs, however the paladin's aura will boost our saves, and the temp HP will take the edge off of any AoE damage, potentially negating it entirely. That's not all, we can take Shield Master on all of these characters, allowing them to negate AoE damage as a reaction if they pass the save. Not as good as Evasion, but better than nothing. The paladin and cleric can also take Heavy Armor Master, which will also extend how long the temp HP will last, not to mention real HP. We need at least two ASIs to max out our primary stats, but that will afford most of the party to take three feats. Resilient(CON or WIS) could be another good option for everyone to take. This leaves one feat left for the artificer; perhaps Inspiring Leader would be a good option, allowing the party to start each combat with much higher temp HP than the cannon can hand out and giving the artificer more flexibility on their first turn.

I guess I just really like playing defensively. It gives you more time to see what your opponent does and adapt accordingly. Enemies with little planning will fall easily to you, as they'll just keep doing the thing that didn't work the first time. Smarter enemies that will see your powerful defense and adapt to it will still have a tough time, especially if you don't present any weaknesses to attack. Meanwhile, while they're probing you to find a weak point, you can be moving to take them down. The mental image I have is that of a slow and ponderous machine of steel, lurching slowly forward. It doesn't move very fast, but nothing seems to slow it down, and it will eventually run you over and destroy you. It's not flashy, but the unstoppable juggernaut is still a neat concept.

i think for the paladin you want either ancients or devotion rather than redemption. looking at damage from 'total party HP perspective' yeah, the redemption paladin can just..absorb the damage from an ally. but in doing so you forego the ability to reduce the damage taken, you can also only shield a single ally per round. its useful..but for forming a shiel wall, its not the best.

devotion paladin: for one, straight up party wide immunity to charms. hear me out. now, basically any 4 man party that includes a paladin and a cleric is gonna be tough to take down, but to go from 'hard to kill' to 'undefeatable' you need to start looking at the edge cases. the abiities that can tear the party apart aside from standard ones. charms are one way that happens. yes, yes, a +5 to the save from the paladins cha is good, but someone that lacks wis save proficiency is still in danger. immunity is far better. additionally, devotion paladins can turn fiends, and are permanently affected by 'protection from good/evil' which means they're that much less likely to fall.

ancients: the big obvious reason you'd want ancients is because of their AoE resistance to spell damage and their ability to turn fey/fiends.


either subclass i think would serve your overall theme better than redemption. and, tbh, a shepard druid (especially with a life cleric dip) would also probably be better since they turn single target healing spells into AoE healing spells...of course they don't (at least by the phb,. not usre about tasha's) get access to either mass healing word or mass heal so....

[Eldariel]

Honestly, while it might lead to Cleric galore, Twilight Cleric seems like something you'd want over Artillerist. 1d6+LEVEL of temp HP per turn 2/SR on level 6 and the ability to remove status lets it outscale Artillerist real quick. Also multiple Clerics leads to the ability to abuse Warding Bond and mass healing. I'd frankly just go Peace Cleric + Twilight Cleric; Protective Bond + Twilight Sanctuary + Warding Bond is pretty dirty and Balm of Peace is fine for topping characters out. Add to that Shepherd Druid and you're quite dandy - hell, they could dip Life Cleric 1 for Goodberry, Healing Spirit, etc. abuse.

Add to that a Pally of some sort: Devotion, Ancients, Redemption, Watchers are all fine. Could go Sorcadin with Divine Soul past 6 or 7 though of course Aura range increase is eventually a huge pay-off for staying single-classed. Either seems fine, honestly.

[Greywander]

Consider a Wizard. Especially late game, they have the craziest "cheat death" abilities around. After all, when you start getting into the really tanky parties, the main thing they have to worry about is the straight up shenanigans, and the Wizard has the tools and contingencies to deal with such things.

You could even make it a Jorasco Wizard to make it a fantastic healer (with eventually infinite healing) if you want. Though while that's good, it's still not the main reason you want a Wizard -- it's their ability to foil the kinds of things that would actually pierce extremely strong conventional defenses. As for good subclasses... Abjurer can get absurdly durable and can share some of that durability with others. Evoker has some particularly notable control and "the best defense is a good offense" tricks. Necromancer has its minion army. Chronurgy is just outright bananas. There's plenty of strong choices to be had.

Also more range and mobility certainly wouldn't hurt your party.

A lot of people are saying to add a wizard. Definitely a good option. The Jorasco Wizard looks interesting, but maybe overkill if there's already a Life Cleric in the party? Or maybe they could take the Life Cleric's place? What I've considered was a Peace Cleric 1 / Abjuration Wizard X, though any wizard subclass would probably do. Peace Cleric gets Emboldening Bond, which is quite strong, especially for just a 1 level dip. Chronurgy does look pretty bananas, like Divination, but better.

devotion paladin: for one, straight up party wide immunity to charms. hear me out. now, basically any 4 man party that includes a paladin and a cleric is gonna be tough to take down, but to go from 'hard to kill' to 'undefeatable' you need to start looking at the edge cases.

Some valid points here. Redemption is great, though in a way it's really just helping you tank damage a bit easier. It helps, sure, but this party comp is already pretty good at doing that. Same reason an Ancestral Guardian maybe isn't a great choice. So immunity to charm effects will help cover a particular niche that could have been able to divide the party, provided it could get past all the save bonuses. I think either one would work, as would Ancients, so it just comes down to preference and which effects seem the most dangerous.

Honestly, while it might lead to Cleric galore, Twilight Cleric seems like something you'd want over Artillerist.

Twilight Cleric does have quite a similar ability, and it's even stronger than the Artillerist's. The trade off is that it doesn't last as long, and can't be used as often. I chose the Artillerist for their endurance. Also, party variety; if we're getting a Life Cleric anyway, better to get something that's not a cleric in order to get access to a broader set of skills and abilities. Artificers bring a lot more to the table than just temp HP, it's just that the temp HP effect is so strong that you want someone who can do it, and right now that's just the Artillerist Artificer or the Twilight Cleric.

Also multiple Clerics leads to the ability to abuse Warding Bond and mass healing. I'd frankly just go Peace Cleric + Twilight Cleric; Protective Bond + Twilight Sanctuary + Warding Bond is pretty dirty and Balm of Peace is fine for topping characters out.

An all-cleric party would actually be amazingly tanky. Twilight + Peace + Life gives you a very solid base to build on. Without a paladin, though, you're missing out on that bonus to saves. Also, without as much variety in the party, it will limit how many things you can do. This is one of the main reasons so many people are recommending a wizard as the fourth party member, because their utility spells open up so many options. An all-cleric party would be quite resilient and fun to play, but it's almost more of a meme build. Like an all-white mage party for the first Final Fantasy game (which are also quite resilient, but take forever to kill things).

[Oramac]

Twilight Cleric

I was going to suggest this as well. That channel divinity is all kinds of broken. The downside, I suppose, is its limited uses between rests, though I doubt that would be a major issue.

I'd also go with a conquest paladin and a controller wizard, personally. Part of reducing damage taken is controlling your enemies, and both of these are absolutely excellent at that.

EDIT: if you reliably fight solo boss-type monsters, an Armorer Artificer might be useful too, with their excellent AC and thunder gauntlets giving DA on attacks against others.

[kazaryu]

The danger of going too heavy in full casters is longevity. If your only source of ranged damage is spells, youre going to run out sooner rather than later. So i def think you want a good ranged attacker in there. Samurai fighter would be pretty solid for putting the damage downrange consistently. Rogues damage isnt typically on par, but rogues are almost entirely at-will effects. They really only care about resting for hp. And with uncanny dodge/evasion theyre gonna be in a pretty good position as far as tankiness goes. Either way, i think youre gonna want a solid, attack based ranged attacker in there. Were you thinking of a 5 man team or 4 man?

[Oramac]

The danger of going too heavy in full casters is longevity. If your only source of ranged damage is spells, youre going to run out sooner rather than later.

Cantrips don't run out. Also, if your DM is one of the rare few that actually tracks ammunition, cantrips are even better.

[kazaryu]

Cantrips don't run out. Also, if your DM is one of the rare few that actually tracks ammunition, cantrips are even better.

cantrips also do significantly less damage than what a ranged dpr can consistently pull off. without any feat or build resource investment, a fighter is going to roughly twice the damage of a cantrip throughout the leveling process. significantly higher if they're actually spec'd for ranged dpr, and at a higher range. yes, theoretically eventually you'll run out of ammunition, but its far easier to carry enough ammunition than it is spell slots, particularly if you're able to recover ammo between fights, or even mid fight.

Now, an agonizing blast warlock would be an option to fill the role of attack based ranged dpr, even if their damage is, largely, subpar. i recomended a fighter or a rouge due to their relative tankiness compared to any of the caster classes.

[Oramac]

cantrips also do significantly less damage than what a ranged dpr can consistently pull off.

That's fair. But this thread isn't about dealing damage. It's about taking it. Sacrificing some DPR in favor of a class that furthers that goal is preferable (in this case).

I suppose one could make the "the best defense is a good offense" argument, but that's another thread entirely.

[Gtdead]

Paladin + Cleric have amazing synergy for shield wall type of tactics and I've long advocated for this combo as the core for any defensively oriented party. However you need to figure out the ranged damage support. Cleric's ranged damage isn't good, and Artillerist by himself doesn't cut it.

I'd probably do something like Ancients Paladin 7/Hexblade 2 (for eldritch blast) + Sentinel Mark (for counterspell) Twilight Cleric (for AoE temp hp).
I wouldn't go for artillerist because Cleric takes care of temp hp. Instead I'd go for a Tiny Servants + Magic Stones Wizard, any dip for armor will do (Cleric/Artificer/Hexblade). Subclass doesn't matter too much although Abjurer tends to work well with temp hp stacking. Spellbook focus would be terrain manipulation/walls and obscurement. An evoker could also work nicely. This party would be really strong fighting inside sickening radiance and since this party works like a shield wall, it could benefit from sculpted fireballs.

As for the last party member, I'm thinking a debuffer would work nicely here (mostly because I find minionmancy boring). The theme of this party is reliability, so Slow would be my goto debuff. A Bard could add a lot of value, both in combat and outside as a skill monkey.

[fbelanger]

undefeatable Vs what?
most party are undefeatable vs a normal fight using basic xp budget.

[Chronic]

Honestly, while it might lead to Cleric galore, Twilight Cleric seems like something you'd want over Artillerist. 1d6+LEVEL of temp HP per turn 2/SR on level 6 and the ability to remove status lets it outscale Artillerist real quick. Also multiple Clerics leads to the ability to abuse Warding Bond and mass healing. I'd frankly just go Peace Cleric + Twilight Cleric; Protective Bond + Twilight Sanctuary + Warding Bond is pretty dirty and Balm of Peace is fine for topping characters out. Add to that Shepherd Druid and you're quite dandy - hell, they could dip Life Cleric 1 for Goodberry, Healing Spirit, etc. abuse.

Add to that a Pally of some sort: Devotion, Ancients, Redemption, Watchers are all fine. Could go Sorcadin with Divine Soul past 6 or 7 though of course Aura range increase is eventually a huge pay-off for staying single-classed. Either seems fine, honestly.

I agree with you, peace cleric + twilight cleric might be the strongest defensive pair 8n the game, they probably are the 2 strongest cleric subclass, with peace being ahead by a wide margin (the way it breaks the bounded accuracy is pretty damn stupid), while the twilight cleric has an overloaded defensive utilitarian kit (but is a minor offender compared to peace domain IMO), combine both and the party will become absurdly resistant. Throw a paladin in there and there is not much a gm can do beside cheating to actually hurt them. Add a shepherd druid and the gm might consider throwing the game AND itself through the window.

Be nice to your GM , don't do that.

[kazaryu]

That's fair. But this thread isn't about dealing damage. It's about taking it. Sacrificing some DPR in favor of a class that furthers that goal is preferable (in this case).

I suppose one could make the "the best defense is a good offense" argument, but that's another thread entirely.

It has nothing to do with 'the best defense is a good offense' thats simply an untrue statement.

At its core a dnd combat is a race. 'How many turns does it take for my side to remove an opposing teams hp vs how long does it take for them to do the same to us'. To put it another way, no defense is perfect, eventually youre going to take damage, which means eventually youre going to run out of hp. It doesnt matter if you could sit there and tank for 30 rounds. If it takes you 35 rounds to kill your enemy, then you're still gonna lose. As such, any defensive centric strategy still needs to be paired with some amount of offense. Now, obviously paladins have solid, fairly efficient melee damage. And full casters all have great, but inefficient, Ranged damage options. The piece thats missing is efficient ranged damage.

[Dork_Forge]

Generally speaking, I'd say you'd need at least one character that is incredibly durable in their own right and has the endurance to last a tough, grueling day. The Paladin can potentially cover the durable aspect, but even with CD they're not hitting the endurance side of things.

If your party can't survive a really bad encounter:

-bad initiative

-abilities not up/not within radius

-some bad rolls

-potentially surprised

-probably not the first encounter of the day

With some certainty, then the whole concept of an unbeatable party just falls apart, and at the moment the proposed set ups just don't cover that.

[Eldariel]

It has nothing to do with 'the best defense is a good offense' thats simply an untrue statement.

At its core a dnd combat is a race. 'How many turns does it take for my side to remove an opposing teams hp vs how long does it take for them to do the same to us'. To put it another way, no defense is perfect, eventually youre going to take damage, which means eventually youre going to run out of hp. It doesnt matter if you could sit there and tank for 30 rounds. If it takes you 35 rounds to kill your enemy, then you're still gonna lose. As such, any defensive centric strategy still needs to be paired with some amount of offense. Now, obviously paladins have solid, fairly efficient melee damage. And full casters all have great, but inefficient, Ranged damage options. The piece thats missing is efficient ranged damage.

Cleric isn't bad at ranged damage from level 9 onwards; Summon Celestial is superb. An hour of Fighter-level ranged damage at the low, low cost of your Concentration. It's true that up until that point though, for certain definitions of ranged.

That said, more casters = more slots so you have more LR resources to work with with a caster over a non-caster archer (of course, to maximise resources you'd just pick a caster archer), which means you can afford to put a bit more into each encounter. This makes the relationship not at all linear; a non-resource user has to have a sufficient advantage over the caster to make up for not providing those resources if you want to optimise your party slots accurately.

Cleric also has solid low range damage in the usual Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + Dodge (or cantrip) setup so a party heavy on Clerics and Paladins, while not optimal for all encounters, would be pretty brutal to face up close. They'd be somewhat vulnerable to e.g. breath kiting but the enemies need a lot of range to entirely avoid them. Ranged Paladin would be an interesting option; it has good enough utility for the party that it can be worth it over the alternatives in spite of doing slightly less damage especially in a party where they can be multiplicative (though some way to snag Archery style would be valuable if going this route; perhaps a level 7 dip or something).

[kazaryu]

Cleric isn't bad at ranged damage from level 9 onwards; Summon Celestial is superb. An hour of Fighter-level ranged damage at the low, low cost of your Concentration. It's true that up until that point though, for certain definitions of ranged.

That said, more casters = more slots so you have more LR resources to work with with a caster over a non-caster archer (of course, to maximise resources you'd just pick a caster archer), which means you can afford to put a bit more into each encounter. This makes the relationship not at all linear; a non-resource user has to have a sufficient advantage over the caster to make up for not providing those resources if you want to optimise your party slots accurately.

Cleric also has solid low range damage in the usual Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapon + Dodge (or cantrip) setup so a party heavy on Clerics and Paladins, while not optimal for all encounters, would be pretty brutal to face up close. They'd be somewhat vulnerable to e.g. breath kiting but the enemies need a lot of range to entirely avoid them. Ranged Paladin would be an interesting option; it has good enough utility for the party that it can be worth it over the alternatives in spite of doing slightly less damage especially in a party where they can be multiplicative (though some way to snag Archery style would be valuable if going this route; perhaps a level 7 dip or something).

Summon celestial only works as long as the summon survives. And if its your primary ranged damage source in an encounter where you need a ranged damage source...then its going to get focused...or dispelled. Im not suggesting not having a cleric, i *am* suggesting that for this concept you need someone that can reliably put down damage at a range. You need someone with at-will ranged dpr. A warlock has potential, but arent all that tanky. A a samurai has some of the better ranged dpr while having the fighters tank stats. And rogues have subpar damage, but above average defense, especially for a party like this. Either one would fit perfectly alongside the rest of the party.

Now, as ive mentioned, im looking at edge cases, since imo thats what separates. Standard defense centric party from 'the undeafeatable party'. My first suggestion related to swapping redemption pally for a devotion or ancient paladin since they both give better coverage for the edge cases, and redemption overall just reinforces the things that the party is already good at.

For this suggestion im looking at the edge case of some kind of a slog, or dungeon crawl. A situation where rests are few relative to the encounters youre facing. In such a scenario you really dont want to have to burn higher level spell slots just to put down the requisite damage to kill an enemy, and you want to minimize risk of wasting apell slots (i.e. getting your summon dispelled/banished in the first round). Having some kind of reliable ranged dps can go a looong way in preserving your LR resources, maxing out their usefulness.

(Also, as a side note, whenever im considering team builds, i typically dont like to use multiple of the same class. Obviously a group of paladins/clerics would be..probably all youd need for most scenarios. But thats boring imo. Taking the 2 classes that specialize in exactly this playstyle and just repeating them through the party is...obvious. and too white roomy)

[Eldariel]

(Also, as a side note, whenever im considering team builds, i typically dont like to use multiple of the same class. Obviously a group of paladins/clerics would be..probably all youd need for most scenarios. But thats boring imo. Taking the 2 classes that specialize in exactly this playstyle and just repeating them through the party is...obvious. and too white roomy)

In this case though, Twilight Cleric and Peace Cleric just have too good a synergy to not include IMHO. It's not about the class, it's the subclasses. Being able to spread out your damage as you deem fit and regenerate temporary HP every round for 2 encounters per short rest is just a ridiculously useful combination that means you can almost always perfectly split the damage around and thus ensure that enemy basically has to burn through all the Twilight Sanctuary HP each round before they get to deal damage. Add to that the ability to cast Warding Bond when you want to further split the damage taken and you basically have a pool of ~200 HP with Regeneration 40 around level 6 instead of a bunch of separate ~50 HP pools. That's just...it's so good it's hard to put to words.

All of this while you're also getting the bonus +1d4 from Peace Cleric, potential Bless for another +1d4, and then Paladin Aura. It even works offensively too; the ranged Paladin would actually probably be the way to go because wasting a whole character on someone who doesn't act as a multiplier to this bull**** (like Shepherd Druid that means any damage coming through gets healed superefficiently via the Unicorn totem with the option of dropping a massive temporary HP pillar per short rest if you run out of Twilight Sanctuaries).


The thing about resources too is also that you don't only win encounters with them; you win encounters at little damage taken with them. This means that when you need to go long without short rests, you still have all your HP remaining. But I do agree that ranged combat would be something of a weakness for this party. But again, another alternative is just improving party mobility to try and get into the fray ASAP so as to avoid the need for separate ranged options.

I also think Alert would be a nice feat to have for everyone; the biggest total existence failure cause in the game is simply getting surprised and enemies going twice before the party gets to do anything; that's plenty to drop PCs. Alert removes the possibility entirely.

[newbie padawan]

I'm thinking either a summoner or blaster. Summoner to add more frontline/distraction or a blaster to help thin enemy numbers. I agree with you that a Shepherd Druid would be fantastic, especially Conjure Animals + Protector cannon THP.

Genielocks are wonderful as well. Decent DPR with EB + Prof + Cha, good mobility with nonconcentration fly, decent summoning options. Dao is good for defensive, and if you need more blasting, Efreeti gets Fireball and Wall of Fire.

Or, of course, for blaster, a Sorcerer is always fun. Draconic Bloodline for AC+HP or Divine Soul for extra healing/defense. Or, of course, the Tempest Cleric 2/Storm Sorc x build for decent defense, access to level 1 cleric spells, and absolutely hilarious blasting options with Transmuted spell + Channel Divinity.

Wizards are always a safe pick as well.


As an off-note, why Redemption over Ancients? Obviously Redemption can heal at 15, but I feel like the resistance to spell damage at 6th from Ancients would be more valuable than an ability that doesn't come online until 15th level with Redemption. Especially because you're taking full damage that can't be mitigated or reduced with Redemption.

I also think that 'Wizards are always a safe pick'

[Contrast]

You've said you favoured the Artificer over the Twilight cleric because their thing lasted longer and could be used more often but I think you should add a glamour bard in somewhere.

The additional mobility they add means that its much harder for the party to get stuck in situations that they're struggling with - sometimes survival is being able to get out of dodge. When I played a glamour bard I originally had Inspiring Leader but I actually had to ask my DM to let me swap it out as the party already had too much THP just from the bardic inspiration that a lot of it was going to waste. I think a combo of a glamour bard and Twilight cleric would already give you excess THP generation.

So I'd be looking at Twilight cleric, Glamour bard and Ancients Paladin. I'd probably look at Rune Knight or Zealot Barbarian at that point for a standard idea of defensive. If you want the ability to prep for everything then a wizard (Bladesinger, War?) is probably what you need.

[Jakinbandw]

Peace cleric, twilight cleric, Paladin, and rune knight.

Good damage and good damage mitigation. One cleric can have the Azorius background for counterspell and the other maybe simic?

[Greywander]

I was thinking about the issue of ranged enemies, and I think I've found a solution without needing to bring in the fourth party member (who should still probably be a wizard). That said, it isn't ideal, roughly on par with relying on the artificer for Fireball.

Looking at the core three, we definitely want both Fortified Position and Supreme Healing. AC bonuses are hard to come by, and the extra buff to DEX saves is also handy for a party that is light on DEX. The second cannon also helps boost damage output, with each cannon option helping to answer the problem of long range or AoE. Maximized heals speak for themselves. So while we could multiclass on the artificer or cleric, we wouldn't want to until very late, and at that point it might be better to not multiclass.

But the paladin is a different story. Redemption gets some really neat features at high levels like regeneration and resistance, but as someone pointed out, we're already great at mitigating damage, so something like Devotion for charm immunity might be a better pick. All we really need in paladin is 6 levels for Aura of Protection, 7 if we want the next subclass feature (charm immunity, for Devotion). Going further into paladin doesn't bring a lot of defensive benefit, though going to at least 11 for Improved Divine Smite will help our offense.

So what I'm thinking is that the Devotion Paladin would get 7 levels in paladin first, then dip 2 levels into warlock, specifically genielock. After that, finish off paladin at 11 or 12 (if we need all five ASIs), then put the rest in warlock. I know hexblade is the usual subclass of choice, but with our artificer we can have guarantied access to Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Giant's Strength. What we gain from the genie patron is an actually fairly substantial damage boost that will apply to both our melee attacks and our EB, and costs us no resources. Later, we'll also get damage resistance and a source of flight. We can pick up Eldritch Spear to insure we have sufficient range, especially since we probably don't have the feat budget for Spell Sniper. As for which pact boon, I don't think we gain anything from Blade unless we want to double smite, and we already have a cleric and artificer in the party; if the fourth member is a wizard, then everyone except the paladin/warlock is already a ritual caster. That leaves Pact of the Chain, which is good for a lot of things that this party comp isn't, namely stealth and scouting. Chain is also just generally good at a lot of non-combat stuff.

On the subject of defending against niche angles of attack (i.e. charm immunity), maybe for races everyone should roll a warforged or reborn. Not needing to eat, drink, sleep, or breathe removes quite a few niche weaknesses this party might have. It also opens up some specific tactics, like sneaking across or hiding on the bottom of a body of water, or holing up in a tight space for multiple days without needing to worry about starvation or dehydration. Disguise yourself as a statue and have the rest of the party give you as a gift to the baron, then wait for weeks before sneaking out and murdering the baron, only to return to your statue position with no one the wiser. Carry the party in a bag of holding without worrying about suffocation. Et cetera.

Thinking about feats, I believe I said early that everyone would take Shield Master (for pseudo-Evasion), Resilient (WIS or CON), and, if wearing heavy armor, HAM (to further extend temp HP and healing). Rethinking it, though, perhaps Alert would offer more value than Resilient. Saves are important, and WIS and CON saves especially, but we already have boosts to those. Improving initiative and negating advantage for unseen attackers might be more helpful. Those in medium armor could get both since they can't take HAM, though I do think someone should also pick up Inspiring leader. Picking feats gets easier if everyone gets a free feat at 1st level, though you don't get your last feat until 19th level anyway, so maybe it's better to pretend link you'll only get three feats anyway.

I'm still inclined toward a Peace Cleric 1 / wizard X for the fourth member. Nothing specific seems to really be calling out to me, though. Honestly, I think "The Wall" might just be these core three members. If you have more than three players at your table, they can play pretty much whatever and it should be fine, so long as they have The Wall to protect them. (Though they should still make themselves as tanky as possible, otherwise they create a weak link in The Wall; that's why the wizard dips cleric: for armor and shields.) If there was some other mechanic to leverage to boost your defenses, then we could pick a fourth member based on that, but we already have temp HP and AC (Artillerist), Saves (paladin), and healing (Life Cleric), about the only thing we might be missing is magical protection (notably Counterspell). This suggests maybe Abjurer is still the best choice, though bards get to apply Jack of All Trades to Counterspell/Dispel Magic checks, and earlier than the Abjurer (though only if Lore, as otherwise you can't get Counterspell until 10), so a bard would be a viable alternative to a wizard.