Fizban's first impressions

[Naanomi]

Just like wyverns, not real dragons.

Well then we have a Prime world with no 'echo dragons' at all

[KorvinStarmast]

Frankly, I found most of Fizban's quips even worse than Xanathar's, a few were good tho (specially the one about himself).

They were visual clutter, mostly.

I think "I really wanna try a ranger for my next char"

We have a campaign starting in a few weeks that has, for me, a Watcher Oath Paladin lined up. Group back story is beginning to gel. I am now considering the ranger and his dog drake instead. Must discuss with group.

Monks as we all know are hated by WotC I wonder why do they even pretend to try.

My time playing monks in this edition has been fun. Not sure where your disappointment has come from. Sorry it hasn't worked out.

[Amechra]

Monks as we all know are hated by WotC I wonder why do they even pretend to try.

I think you're thinking of Paizo there.

(Pathfinder 1e was notorious for repeatedly giving the Monk nice things and then almost immediately introducing errata that nerfed those nice things.)

[Telwar]

I think you're thinking of Paizo there.

(Pathfinder 1e was notorious for repeatedly giving the Monk nice things and then almost immediately introducing errata that nerfed those nice things.)

"Why not both?"

[ProsecutorGodot]

"Why not both?"

Because it's really not true for 5e, the only times Monk's get "shafted" are when playtest material reaches print in a different state than it was introduced to be tested. I don't agree with all of the adjustments made to the new Monk Subclass but when they get Dragonhide Belt in the same book and the almost universally good (I'd go so far as to say Great in all but Quickened Healing) optional features they got in Tasha's it's not a very sound take to say WotC is doing any deliberate injustice to the Monk.

[Millstone85]

Well then we have a Prime world with no 'echo dragons' at all

Perhaps the key to healing Athas is to somehow give it proper dragons.

[Unoriginal]

Perhaps the key to healing Athas is to somehow give it proper dragons.

Like how introducing wolves in the Yellowstone park worked out.

[Millstone85]

Like how introducing wolves in the Yellowstone park worked out.

Only instead of being about keeping elks on the move, it is about how the mystical essence of the Material Plane is actually not divine, elemental or fey, but draconic.

[Ralanr]

Like how introducing wolves in the Yellowstone park worked out.

Only instead of being about keeping elks on the move, it is about how the mystical essence of the Material Plane is actually not divine, elemental or fey, but draconic.

So long as it doesn't turn out like Tarkir.

[Naanomi]

So long as it doesn't turn out like Tarkir.

I think most people would take Tarkir over Athas

[Scarytincan]

I'm kinda bummed that brown, mercury and grey dragons got scrapped, but kinda understand why. I don't think anyone's gonna miss greyhawk/steel dragons.

I most certainly will :( steel draggo is best draggo...

[Brookshw]

Greatwyrms are essentially dragons that absorb their echoes from other worlds, there's only one B+T from what I understand, with their aspects instead of echoes. This is from the book if it helps:

What was that Jet LI movie, The One?

What happens if an echo is killed before they can absorb it?

[PhoenixPhyre]

One thing I realized while reading the magic items section--

Creating whiskey in a jar once per day is equivalent to creating a potion of healing (supreme) once per day and is a Legendary effect.

[Dork_Forge]

What was that Jet LI movie, The One?

What happens if an echo is killed before they can absorb it?

Excellent movie that started teenage me's obsession with the song bodies.

If they die then it just defaults to whatever death lore you chose, which can include reincarnating as an egg.

One thing I realized while reading the magic items section--

Creating whiskey in a jar once per day is equivalent to creating a potion of healing (supreme) once per day and is a Legendary effect.

Whiskey that turns you into a dragon is some firewater alright.

[Segev]

I think the best way to reconcile the lore (pure speculation on my part, but not baseless in my opinion) is that the 'first world' was the first *reasonable, livable* place on the Prime, but not literally the first physical place there. I'd guess the aboleth had a great deal of time dwelling on frozen rocks and in murky lifeless seas surrounded only by their uprisen servants and vile creations... before dragonkind started making their little awful paradise world and then the Gods spread it about

Space is often treated much like the sea in fiction. Maybe in the time before the dividing of the firmament (or whatever the gods call it in D&D), void and water were the same thing, and the aboleths dwelt in the void, swimming in the ocean black, until their very expanse was encased in stone and air and the void made empty.

[strangebloke]

Because it's really not true for 5e, the only times Monk's get "shafted" are when playtest material reaches print in a different state than it was introduced to be tested. I don't agree with all of the adjustments made to the new Monk Subclass but when they get Dragonhide Belt in the same book and the almost universally good (I'd go so far as to say Great in all but Quickened Healing) optional features they got in Tasha's it's not a very sound take to say WotC is doing any deliberate injustice to the Monk.

Agreed. It's just pointless negativity. From a design perspective the monk may be a little undertuned still but for a class that the 5e team has actually taken nice things from you'd want to point at the sorcerer and even there it's relatively minor stuff.

And monks, optimal or not are pretty fun imx.

[Envyus]

Well then we have a Prime world with no 'echo dragons' at all

That implies it's not an Echo of the First world, like Eberron.

[JackPhoenix]

If Eberron isn't an Echo of the First World (and thanks KB for that!), does that mean Eberron dragons are extempt from that Dragonsight stupidity? Certainly Eberron's Tiamat is not the same as "normal" Tiamat, beyond looks, as she's neither a god or actually a dragon.

[Ralanr]

If Eberron isn't an Echo of the First World (and thanks KB for that!), does that mean Eberron dragons are extempt from that Dragonsight stupidity? Certainly Eberron's Tiamat is not the same as "normal" Tiamat, beyond looks, as she's neither a god or actually a dragon.

Depends on your table, though they're brought up in the book several times (because Dragons).

[Dork_Forge]

If Eberron isn't an Echo of the First World (and thanks KB for that!), does that mean Eberron dragons are extempt from that Dragonsight stupidity? Certainly Eberron's Tiamat is not the same as "normal" Tiamat, beyond looks, as she's neither a god or actually a dragon.

I'd say that if there is a dragon, with the dragon type, on Eberron they're subject to Dragonsight. They don't say it directly, but there's reference to dragons moving to the Outer Planes when they become Great Wyrms, presumably out of the Dragonsight field of view, and Eberron is described as in the Ethereal, which I don't think counts as Outer?

[Millstone85]

Certainly Eberron's Tiamat is not the same as "normal" Tiamat, beyond looks, as she's neither a god or actually a dragon.

Is Eberron's Tiamat even a thing? RftLW only mentions the possibility of taking evil gods and archfiends of the Great Wheel, for example Tiamat, Lolth or Asmodeus, and "recasting" them as overlords of Khyber. That is even presented as "assuming you don't want Eberron to be connected to the wider multiverse" (RftLW p233).

[Naanomi]

That implies it's not an Echo of the First world, like Eberron.

Historically it has had more connection to the larger setting than Eberron... People talk in setting about how hard it is to get there, NPCs from Athas are in Sigil, it is on Spelljamming starcharts, prominent Darksun adventures deal with planehopping Gith, etc

Space is often treated much like the sea in fiction. Maybe in the time before the dividing of the firmament (or whatever the gods call it in D&D), void and water were the same thing, and the aboleths dwelt in the void, swimming in the ocean black, until their very expanse was encased in stone and air and the void made empty.

Early planar history sometimes treated the Ethereal that way (which is generally considered the 'first plane' that predates all others); but Aboleth lore clearly references things like crystal spheres (what piscaethes 'brushed against') in a way that puts it at odds with the 'only one prime existed then that Gods were on' timeline even if we are talking in nautical metaphors

Eberron is described as in the Ethereal, which I don't think counts as Outer?

The Ethereal is the medium 'between' the Prime and Inner Planes, about as far removed from the Outer as it can be... But it is classically the home of most (but not all) Demiplanes, which is what they are implying Eberron is

In the editions, Eberron has been shunted around a lot as to 'where it really is'. In 3e, it was the classic example of an 'alternative cosmology' seperated from the Great Wheel and only reachable from a dangerous and near impossible journey through the Deep Shadow Plane. 4e cosmology was... Inconsistent by nature; but established that connections between Eberron and the other planes were more firm than that somehow (we 'see' the Outer Planes deep in one of the other planes orbiting Eberron (Irion to Celestia I think)... A novel established that the same Far Realm that threatens The Great Wheel lies at the heart of Xoriat's corruption... We see a few NPCs cross over through gates and portals from Eberron and the World Tree).

5e has waffled a bit on whether Eberron is a 'hard to reach prime world but still a prime in a crystal sphere' (like Athas); or an isolated ethereal Demiplane

[Millstone85]

4e cosmology was... Inconsistent by nature

I would say that 4e was actually fairly consistent with its cosmology, but had built it on what felt like a contradiction.

See, 4e had all its settings abide by the same cosmological model. So because Nentir Vale had an Astral Sea, Forgotten Realms also had an Astral Sea, and Dark Sun had a (nuked and empty) Astral Sea, and Eberron had "the Astral Sea of Siberys".

At the same time, 4e was the opposite of 5e in that it did not invite crossovers. The Astral Sea of Nentir Vale was not the Astral Sea of Forgotten Realms, neither of which were the Astral Sea of Dark Sun, nor did Siberys have anything to do with any of them.

we 'see' the Outer Planes deep in one of the other planes orbiting Eberron (Irion to Celestia I think)

All I remember is Eberron being given its own version of Baator, which I think was described as orbiting Shavarath.

[Psyren]

If I remember correctly, the Hoard of the Dragon Queen modules were written by Kobold Press, not WOTC, which does make it very complicated to understand exactly what 5e's theology system is, considering this was one of the first official modules ever released.

Oh, it's pretty clear what it is: A hot mess.

Something I was really hoping would see drastic changes in its reprint, oh well. The design is just so different, you can practically tell at a glance that it was made without full access to the final design of 5e. We know that at best they were working with a pre-release "mostly complete" iteration of the DMG, at worst a completely outdated one.

On topic: There's so much cool stuff in this book that we want to adapt to our table. That little blurb on a particular Ancient Blue Dragon might be just what our DM was looking for to plan out the campaign extension he wanted to do for SKT.

My interest is in the whole dragonslaying and hoard item system, I think it's very cool and want to adapt some of my current dragon acquired items to the system. It takes a step towards making earned items feel unique and powerful, something that was previously exclusive to Artifacts with their minor/major boon and bane effects.

I was hoping that after 3.5's various bugaboos, they'd have learned the dangers of this "licensed third party" designation but oh well.

Glad to hear it is less than completely official.

[JackPhoenix]

Is Eberron's Tiamat even a thing? RftLW only mentions the possibility of taking evil gods and archfiends of the Great Wheel, for example Tiamat, Lolth or Asmodeus, and "recasting" them as overlords of Khyber. That is even presented as "assuming you don't want Eberron to be connected to the wider multiverse" (RftLW p233).

Very much so. Tiamat, the Daughter of Khyber is one of the most powerful Overlords around, with special influence and dominion over dragons. She's the reason dragons stick to Argonessen, because she grows stronger when they apply their power over lesser races, the reason for draconic greed and desire to dominate. Her prison, the Pit of Five Sorrows, is watched over by guardians who are executed after their tour of dute ends, to make sure they aren't corrupted by her. The guardians know that, and volunteer anyway.

While she doesn't matter much to an average humanoid on Khorvaire, she's a big deal.

[samcifer]

A gal in my group had tried playing a drakewarden in icewind dale and found that the pet had too little hp to last very long per summon, so she gave up on using it. Granted, she was using the playtest version. is the fizbain version more survivable?

[Dork_Forge]

A gal in my group had tried playing a drakewarden in icewind dale and found that the pet had too little hp to last very long per summon, so she gave up on using it. Granted, she was using the playtest version. is the fizbain version more survivable?

I believe it's the same, which is on par with the Steel Defender, what was happening that it was dying so frequently? Was it at least saving the party some hits?

[Envyus]

Historically it has had more connection to the larger setting than Eberron... People talk in setting about how hard it is to get there, NPCs from Athas are in Sigil, it is on Spelljamming starcharts, prominent Darksun adventures deal with planehopping Gith, etc

It can not be an echo o the first world and still be connected to others loosely. Alternatively it is an Echo and all the original Dragons on the world just went extinct.

[Naanomi]

It can not be an echo o the first world and still be connected to others loosely. Alternatively it is an Echo and all the original Dragons on the world just went extinct.

To be fair, virtually everything went extinct several times in Athas' history

[Millstone85]

Very much so. Tiamat, the Daughter of Khyber is one of the most powerful Overlords around, with special influence and dominion over dragons.

Oh, bother!

I thought for sure that Tiamat's presence on Eberron was a 4e-ism. Which made it very easy to read RftLW's guidance on bringing the likes of Tiamat, Asmodeus and Lolth to the setting, either as their Great Wheel selves or as Khyber overlords.

But if long-time Eberron fans expect a Tiamat, then it becomes another lore-related headache.