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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Question (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    How does one increase the scope of things you can do while raging, or using rage-like abilities, or variant rages, in 3.5e and PF1? Here are the sorts of things I'm interested in:

    *Bluff to feint in combat
    *Concentration to not provoke AoO in combat or regain psionic focus
    *Handle or Push an animal to direct it's activities in combat
    *Make Martial Lore checks in combat
    *Use Knowledge Devotion to increase to-hit and damage with creature based Knowledge checks
    *Perform Comedy to taunt an enemy in combat
    *Perform Dance with a class feature or feat that makes it a combat skill
    *Perform Weapon Drill to make an impressive weapon display
    *Tumble checks of all sorts
    *Cast at least some combat oriented spells
    *Use at least some types of spell completion items in combat
    *Use combat expertise
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2021-10-28 at 05:58 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Rage Mage is your best bet for casting. Alternatively Runescarred Berserker can work too.

    Note that you can use martial maneuvers and stances while raging (from Tome of Battle).

    Tumble checks to avoid AoO should be legal IIRC.

    And if you are looking for Rage alternatives, have a look at Drunken Master's "Drink like a Demon" ability.

    edit: we had a Rage Mage round in the Iron Chef competition here a while ago. Maybe you wanna look into it:
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...round-CX/page3

    (the 3 spider related build are from me^^).

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Tumble checks to avoid AoO should be legal IIRC.
    Nope, they aren't. Know of any feat or anything that allows them?

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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    1) Which barbarian are you using as the base? 3.5 Barb cannot tumble while raging, but the PF Barbarian can use Acrobatics while raging just fine. They can also use Fly and Ride.

    2) PF Barb has several ways to cast while raging, e.g. Moment of Clarity or Rage Prophet. You can also run Bloodrager instead of Barbarian if you want even more casting. Barbarians can also use alchemical extracts while raging as those don't require concentration, you're just drinking a potion-like spell.

    3) If you have an animal companion, you can handle it before raging (free action) and thus sidestep the fact that it is a Charisma skill. There are also rage powers that synergize with having a companion, e.g. Ferocious Beast. If you need to handle it again during combat, Moment of Clarity will work here too, and you can even throw in a spell or similar that round.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Mostly 3.5, with various PF stuff imported as needed.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    In PF, the Urban Barbarian changes rage around (in ways you may not want), but allows the use of all skills.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraynic View Post
    In PF, the Urban Barbarian changes rage around (in ways you may not want), but allows the use of all skills.
    I just found, in 3.5, Horselord does the same. But there's no feat that allows Barbarians to Tumble or Feint in combat?

    How about Trailblazer and the other 'Competing with PF to replace 3.5' systems, did any of them allow any options for this sort of thing?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2021-10-28 at 01:38 PM.

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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I just found, in 3.5, Horselord does the same. But there's no feat that allows Barbarians to Tumble or Feint in combat?

    How about Trailblazer and the other 'Competing with PF to replace 3.5' systems, did any of them allow any options for this sort of thing?
    Again, just show your GM that PF Barbarians can tumble while raging and ask to let your 3.5 base do the same.

    As for feinting, I'm not aware of anything, and frankly feinting implies the use of brainpower that a raging barbarian probably shouldn't be capable of. (But as mentioned above, Urban Barb can feint if you're set on that.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    the fact that you can natively use ride skill while raging does mean you already can deal with an animal while riding it during rage using the ride skill...

    A lot of those things seem like pretty reasonable things to do during rage, I think tumble was left out because tumble isn't a barbarian class skill so it was over looked... Weapon drill is also a weird one and Perform to 'taunt' isn't actually supported by rules to begin with a but is a reasonable addition to the rules.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    There are some possibilities:

    Champion of Gwynharwyf PrC (Book of Exalted Deeds):
    Furious Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a champion of Gwynharwyf can cast her champion spells even while raging. If she has another spellcasting class, she cannot cast spells from that class while raging, only the spells that she gains from her champion levels.
    Vestigial Twin unique ability (Dungeon Master's Guide II):
    The NPC was born with a vestigial head and possibly one or two atrophied arms or legs - the remains of a twin that only partially formed. The vestigial head grows from some point on the NPC's body and has its own personality and voice. Once per round, this second head can take an additional standard action independent of the actions taken by the rest of the body. This action must be chosen from the following list: casting a spell known to the NPC (verbal component only), activating a spell-like ability possessed by the NPC, activating a magic item, or attempting a skill check or ability check based on a mental ability score (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma).
    Unfortunately, it's LA +5

    Tainted Raver template (Heroes of Horror):
    Unlike a barbarian’s rage, a tainted raver's perpetual fury does not prevent it from taking actions that require reasoned thought or concentration. A tainted raver can cast spells, use skills, activate magic items, and even act calmly and rationally.
    The template by itself is unplayable, but you can try to include it into a Symbiotic (or Tauric) creature combo

    Rage Casting feat (Dragon #310): you can cast Swift/Immediate action spells while raging, and activate magic items by spell trigger, spell completion, or command word; required - besides Rage and spellcasting - Combat Casting, Quicken Spell, and Concentration 5 ranks

    Torque of Lucid Raging (Dungeon #126):
    Crafted by savage shamans for use by barbarian commanders, these thick metal chokers allow raging wearers to retain a measure of control despite their battle frenzy. This magic item only aids characters with the rage extraordinary ability. Those that rage while wearing this item are not restricted in the use of skills, feats, or abilities they possess. Thus, a barbarian who rages while wearing a torque of lucid raging can use all skills, any feat, and any ability requiring patience or concentration, as well as can cast any spell and activate any magic item (as long as he possesses such skills, feats, or abilities) as if he were not raging. A torque of lucid raging uses the same space as a magic necklace.
    9000 gp

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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Weeeeell... Four Horsemen Presents: Even More Horrifically Overpowered Feats has the following:

    CLEAR RAGE
    [Horrifically Overpowered]
    You’ve mastered your anger, and it has no control over you.
    Prerequisite: Rage class feature.
    Benefit: You do not suffer a –2 penalty to Armor Class when raging. Additionally, when raging, you can use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skill or any ability that requires patience or concentration (including spellcasting).
    Now, the book insists that the feat is horribly overpowered, but is it really? Honestly, allowing you to pick a lock while raging is hardly OP, and neither is casting polymorph while you have some extra Str and Con (when you could just rage while already polymorphed, and it'd be the exact same).
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-10-28 at 04:48 PM.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Nope, they aren't. Know of any feat or anything that allows them?
    I guess I was misremembering it. Or maybe I mixed it up with the "Ferocity" ACF. It's a rage like ability that buffs and allows DEX based skill use. Maybe this is a better option as workaround?

    edit: but imho a 2 lvl dip into Drunken Master is the best option here. You get a rage like ability that doesn't limit your skill use (besides from the penalties to INT/WIS) and get Stagger to improve you mobility while charging (gets rid of the straight line limitation and allows for any number of turns while charging).

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Hmmm.

    "While in a state of ferocity, the barbarian cannot use any Charisma- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except item creation feats and metamagic feats."


    "A horselord can use any skill or feat while in battle ecstasy, but all skill checks except for Handle Animal and Ride take a -2 penalty."

    Interesting. I really wish there was a simple feat that replicated most of the effect of the Torque, lol! Even with a -2 like Horselord has to select skills, and a limitation on Swift and Immediate spells only...


    How about this: Let's say the Movie Sherlock Holmes is some sort of Factotum//Barbarian with appropriate variant rages and some sort of feat to explain what he can do and how he thinks when in his battle trance thing. What would a feat, and which variant rage (from anywhere in PF1 or 3.5e), that lets him 'rage' the way he does, look like?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2021-10-28 at 06:42 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Hmmm.

    "While in a state of ferocity, the barbarian cannot use any Charisma- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except ...
    Maybe it's worth looking at any options that change the operative stat for skills. Eg. Ancestral Knowledge switches INT for WIS on knowledge checks, ergo the knowledge skill is no longer an Int-based skill and therefore knowledge devotion can still be used while raging.

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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Hyperconscious (3.5) and PF both have the Skill Finesse feat, which changes one skill's related ability score to something else, so if you want to change that Knowledge: Nature skill over to Str, you totally can. It's a [psionic] feat, though.

    So instead of "knowledge is power," it's "power is knowledge."

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: (3.5e/PF1) Ways to do more things and use more skill types while Raging?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Hyperconscious (3.5) and PF both have the Skill Finesse feat, which changes one skill's related ability score to something else, so if you want to change that Knowledge: Nature skill over to Str, you totally can. It's a [psionic] feat, though.

    So instead of "knowledge is power," it's "power is knowledge."
    Ancestral Knowledge taps into that idea in fluff terms too: the feat's description is: "You have a strong connection to the ancestors of your clan, giving you understanding and knowledge beyond the mortal realms." You don't have to think to know stuff, the blood of your ancestors infuses you with it almost on instinct.

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