"Don't Screw This Up."

[Ionathus]

Then he added, "no pressure, though," which I thought was nice.

It's been a month or two since we argued about Redcloak so I thought we could get back on this merry-go-round once again!

In Jirix's speech to Gobbotopia in #704, he recounts a (relatively) lengthy speech that The Dark One gave to him, telling him to lead the goblinoids via trade and logistics and diplomacy and intrigue. And then he told Jirix to return to "my true prophet." What's interesting about this fairly eloquent depiction is that it's the most The Dark One has ever spoken with one of his worshippers -- including Redcloak, who has never spoken to TDO.

I can't find a reason to doubt Jirix's word on this. He hasn't ever been deceptive like Redcloak, nor has he demonstrated sunk-cost thinking. The strip is a crayon drawing, which according to Word of Giant means it didn't necessarily happen 100% as depicted. But I don't believe Jirix is an unreliable narrator to the degree that he'd be lying about a divine revelation happening at all.

If that's the case, I find it very strange that TDO has never talked to his "true prophet" Redcloak, but willingly talked to Jirix and even gave him a message for Redcloak -- albeit a very blunt, unhelpful message.

What's going on here? Why hasn't TDO ever talked to his own high priest, even if just to encourage him? Why was he so quick to reach out to Jirix by comparison? Given how much attention was paid to it in #1206, I get the feeling we're supposed to think something's not quite right about his dynamic with Redcloak. I just don't know how to reconcile that with how he called Redcloak his "true prophet" and gave Jirix a message for him. Does TDO not have access to whatever Commune spell recently allowed Durkon to contact Thor? Was a death the only way he could get a message through?

Obviously the answer is that Redcloak's niece is actually the true prophet. But if that hypothetically weren't the case, what are your other thoughts?

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak never died, that's about the extent of it. Big Purple tells his High Priests (all of them) everything he deems they need to know (which is a lot more than any other mortal is told by the gods, barring Durkon (but then, the extra intel he received was something Big Purple doesn't know)). Jirix conveniently died and was raised so he could act as a messenger. Redcloak, in the meantime admits he never even tried calling the Boss, and even if he called, what was Big Purple supposed to say? He can't tell Redcloak more than he already knows and he can give the green guy all the feedback he needs to carry on in the form of spells granted.

Further, Thor only told anything to his single most important cleric after he died as well, although Durkon knew the lore of the Gates long before that. Why is Big Purple worse than Thor for not going the extra mile?

[RatElemental]

The thing that really turns all of this into a tangled mess is the fact that Loki did talk to Hilgya. She says she prayed every night for an answer, so maybe she was casting commune every night, but if she was why didn't she just say she tried to commune with her god every night instead?

And then there's whatever's going on with the oracle.

[Metastachydium]

Loki did talk to Hilgya. She says she prayed every night for an answer

Which is presumably something Redcloak never did (because he knew a crazy amount of stuff already). Case closed?

And then there's whatever's going on with the oracle.

The Oracle is not a cleric and we don't know that he's ever talked to Tiamat.

[Fyraltari]

My guess is that Redcloak has, more or less consciously, avoided having a real talk with the Dark One because he's afraid that

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

his boss doesn't approve of his actions (like sending goblins to die, serving Xykon and murdering Right-Eye) or that Right-Eye was right about the Dark One and that none of this is actually going to help the goblinoids.

The thing that really turns all of this into a tangled mess is the fact that Loki did talk to Hilgya. She says she prayed every night for an answer, so maybe she was casting commune every night, but if she was why didn't she just say she tried to commune with her god every night instead?

And then there's whatever's going on with the oracle.

Even assuming that wasn't flowery language for using divination magic, Loki only bothered answering once he had a need for her and only gave her the bare minimum of information she needed to be of use to him.

[mjasghar]

As a LE deity with part of his portfolio being justice for goblinoids, I suspect the Dark One has a more Neutral facet that lets him more easily take the worship of Neutral goblinoids. So he puts on a show of the velvet glove but inside is the spiked iron gauntlet.
As part of this he uses his Redcloak agents as deniable assets. So, they get zapped with the Plan at the start and then do lots of terrible things. And he can turn around and say he never told them to do that specific atrocity, because he deliberately never answers their Communes. Plausible deniability. The Redcloak is dismissed as a rogue agent and the negotiator is put forward as the face of the regime. Which makes sense if you think Wrong Eye will end up dead at the end of this (most likely aged to death as he either rebels or succeeds and the Mantle is taken away/disintegrates as no longer needed.

[Carl]

My guess is that Redcloak has, more or less consciously, avoided having a real talk with the Dark One...

Yeah but when he put on the cloak for the first time he got a huge info dump, presumably direct from the Dark One. And him and his brother where adventuring around for a long time before they ran into and recruited Xykon. It wasn't like he couldn't have tried to have such a conversation with the Dark One to help in finding an arcane caster they needed so badly.

I have to wonder. Did that cloak actually come from the Dark One, Redcloak and everyone else assumes it did, but everyone, Redcloak included got that info from the cloak info dump. No one besides Jirnx that we know of has ever actually spoken to the Dark One so in theory someone could be pulling a fast one and Jirnx could have been telling a pre-decided lie to Redcloak. Would explain why a supposedly vengeance driven god who doesn't care about his people would be telling Jrinx to engage in battle of diplomacy, policy making, e.t.c. It's like he's got a split personality or somthing.

Not sure i buy it but it's definitely an interesting thought. Also have to wonder in retrospect if jrinx going after the demon roaches was entirely coincidence. pretty sure from a hint dropped in SoD that they're how the ICC found out about the gates. If the Dark One is aware of them it would make sense to eliminate the spies in the midst. Hmmm, ICC manipulating the goblins and Redcloak would make sense but the timeline doesn't fit, they didn't find out about it till long after the cloak came into existence. Hmm whats everyone else's thoughts?

[Fishman]

I think the more simple explanation is that there are simply limits to how much information the gods can impart on their followers. The rules of the game simply prevent them from being so outright direct in most cases, with the best infodumps coming from loopholes. I mean, "Don't Screw This Up" isn't exactly a high-precision direct command, even still.

[Carl]

I think the more simple explanation is that there are simply limits to how much information the gods can impart on their followers. The rules of the game simply prevent them from being so outright direct in most cases, with the best infodumps coming from loopholes. I mean, "Don't Screw This Up" isn't exactly a high-precision direct command, even still.

Thor allready made it clear when he took Durkon and Minrah to see the markers that any such limits are a result of agreements between the gods. Not hard limits set by the nature of the gods. And that the Dark One is not bound by any of those agreements.

[Peelee]

Thor allready made it clear when he took Durkon and Minrah to see the markers that any such limits are a result of agreements between the gods. Not hard limits set by the nature of the gods. And that the Dark One is not bound by any of those agreements.

TDO is, however, bound by belief. If people believe that the gods cannot directly communicate any thing they want, which seems pretty likely, TDO can't.

TDO can only talk to Redcloak by a face to face meeting in the afterlife or by Commune, which is rarely answered by the gods from all indications. Redcloak already knows exactly what TDO wants from him thanks to the Crimson Mantle. Seems like TDO had a little extra push for him after Gobbotopia, but also seems like Reddie stopped trying to Commune by that point, and Jirix delivered the message just fine.

[Ionathus]

Which is presumably something Redcloak never did (because he knew a crazy amount of stuff already). Case closed?

Given his reaction in 1206, I find it hard to believe he's never even tried Communing or even just openly praying to TDO to give some guidance. He's his high priest and supposedly on his most important mission...I think the lack of communication is supposed to be suspicious to us.

As a LE deity with part of his portfolio being justice for goblinoids, I suspect the Dark One has a more Neutral facet that lets him more easily take the worship of Neutral goblinoids. So he puts on a show of the velvet glove but inside is the spiked iron gauntlet.
As part of this he uses his Redcloak agents as deniable assets. So, they get zapped with the Plan at the start and then do lots of terrible things. And he can turn around and say he never told them to do that specific atrocity, because he deliberately never answers their Communes. Plausible deniability. The Redcloak is dismissed as a rogue agent and the negotiator is put forward as the face of the regime. Which makes sense if you think Wrong Eye will end up dead at the end of this (most likely aged to death as he either rebels or succeeds and the Mantle is taken away/disintegrates as no longer needed.

This is currently the most plausible alternative theory to me. I think the "rogue agent" narrative might make sense, or at least fit with TDO being callous about his followers' lives (just like Redcloak!). But then again, who would TDO be making excuses to? He apparently refuses to talk to any of the other gods (dropped out of the private chat group) and doesn't even need to worry about their binding rules.

TDO is, however, bound by belief. If people believe that the gods cannot directly communicate any thing they want, which seems pretty likely, TDO can't.

I think that's only been stated in the context of the Gates -- something that is not known by enough people to "bind by belief". I don't recall any instances where people claim the gods can't talk to mortals about other stuff if they so choose. It's just that the gods are busy and those people are unimportant. But Redcloak is important, and his mission seems to be very important to TDO, and TDO isn't even bound by God Law to not blab about the Gates. I don't see why he wouldn't be getting more guidance or even just feedback.

[Metastachydium]

Given his reaction in 1206, I find it hard to believe he's never even tried Communing or even just openly praying to TDO to give some guidance. He's his high priest and supposedly on his most important mission...I think the lack of communication is supposed to be suspicious to us.

All no. 1206 explicitly establishes is that they have never talked directly and Redcloak is trying to "give him his space." Doesn't sound like he pesters Big Purple a lot, now does it?
Also, like I said, other gods, Thor included, neglect to communicate with their most important mortal assets as well and that without giving these assets an infodump through an artifact as the Dark One does. I fail to see how Big Purple is eminently suspicious.

Edit: As for prayers, we know that his prayers are normally about establishing a nonverbal spiritual link rather than talky-talking.

he deliberately never answers their Communes

The only god about whom we know that he kind of does that is Thor. Is he a callous, double-crossing LE tyrant as well?

[Rogan]

About gods talking to their Priests, we know Hel gave Durkon* instructions and generally was communicative towards him.

Do we know how she did this?

[Fyraltari]

About gods talking to their Priests, we know Hel gave Durcon* instructions and generally was communicative towards him.

Do we know how she did this?

She created Durkon* with some innate knowledge (like the place of the Godsmoot) and he gave her regular updates through Commune.

[hamishspence]

Given how limited the actual Commune spell is,

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm


I'd speculate the the spell is just used to send a "are you going to start talking to me?" question, getting a "Yes" reply back, and then the deity uses their own powers to communicate properly.



Remote Communication plus Remote Sensing allow the deity to send the messages and hear anything said back.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...haracteristics
Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.

Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

[Rogan]

She created Durkon* with some innate knowledge (like the place of the Godsmoot) and he gave her regular updates through Commune.

Is this your theory or do you have a source for this?
(I don't want to imply that this answer is wrong, I'm just curious if / where it was explained)

[Bacon Elemental]

It is an interesting question!

Just for everyone's refreshment, here's the relevant lines from 1206

Panel 9

Redcloak: Wait, he told you this? In person? You actually met Thor??
Durkon: Aye! 'E gave me this mission 'imself!

Panel 10

Redcloak: …
Redcloak: I've never spoken to my god. Not directly.

Panel 11

Durkon: Oh!
Durkon: Well I'm sure 'e's just…you know, busy. Wit work an' stuff.

Panel 12

Redcloak: I know. I try to give him his space.
Durkon: 'E prob'bly just wants ta take things slow. See how they go.
Redcloak: I've been his high priest for 35 years.
Durkon: …Mebbe 'e dinnae want to ruin tha friendship?

Redcloak does seem extremely surprised at the idea that direct communication with Thor in this matter was even plausible for Durkon (Who isn't a high priest at all), and I'm not sure that "I try to give him his space" ought be interpreted as "I never call" so much as "He never responded and I've stopped trying in case I'm angering him by being pestersome".

But it feels like a very deliberate set of words to include one way or another, comic joke aside, and I wouldnt be surprised if the next panel set we get of Team Evil ends with redcloak casting Communion, all alone.

[Fyraltari]

Also checking back, the effect of the Commune used with Thor (Durkon appears with a yellow aura) do not match those of the spell used with Hel (a "windo" appears with a yellow aura "frame").

[Ionathus]

Redcloak does seem extremely surprised at the idea that direct communication with Thor in this matter was even plausible for Durkon (Who isn't a high priest at all), and I'm not sure that "I try to give him his space" ought be interpreted as "I never call" so much as "He never responded and I've stopped trying in case I'm angering him by being pestersome".

But it feels like a very deliberate set of words to include one way or another, comic joke aside, and I wouldnt be surprised if the next panel set we get of Team Evil ends with redcloak casting Communion, all alone.

Yeah, "he never responded so I stopped trying" was my read on that statement, as well.

I mean, it's hard for me to imagine Redcloak went through all the tragedy and mistakes of SoD and didn't make any angry/desperate prayers to TDO to help him out or give him some advice.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, "he never responded so I stopped trying" was my read on that statement, as well.

I mean, it's hard for me to imagine Redcloak went through all the tragedy and mistakes of SoD and didn't make any angry/desperate prayers to TDO to help him out or give him some advice.

That's a conjecture, if a reasonable one. But we don't know that he ever called Big Purple, we never saw him pray (except for spells) and we do know that he's trying to give the Dark One his space. The rest is speculation.

On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.

[Rogan]

On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.

And on the third hand, we have a god(dess) who was on speaking terms with her newly created high priest right away.

So it's impossible to say if The Dark One ignored Redcloak or Red didn't bother to try.
My personal interpretation was, TDO didn't answer the calls when red tried and now red doesn't even try anymore. But I can't prove this really is what happened, of course.

[Peelee]

I think that's only been stated in the context of the Gates -- something that is not known by enough people to "bind by belief".

That's two different things. The gods made an agreement to have a communications blackout around the rifts.

Completely separately, the people may believe that the gods do not or cannot just directly talk to anyone they want at anytime they want about anything they want. Durkon thinks that lightning storms are a sign of Thor trying to communicate, which would be strange if Thor could just say "Dear Durkon. Go with the cloaked person, it's all good."

This belief about all gods generally would almost certainly hamstring the Dark One with regards to chatting with Reddie, or any high priest, about anything, let alone the Gates. And we know that TDO already let info about the Gates/Rifts out, since that's part of the info package granted by the Crimson Mantle he's not in the gods personal agreement on that so he totally told his followers about it in a way that he could - via an artifact that grants knowledge.

[Carl]

TDO is, however, bound by belief. If people believe that the gods cannot directly communicate any thing they want, which seems pretty likely, TDO can't.

TDO can only talk to Redcloak by a face to face meeting in the afterlife or by Commune, which is rarely answered by the gods from all indications. Redcloak already knows exactly what TDO wants from him thanks to the Crimson Mantle. Seems like TDO had a little extra push for him after Gobbotopia, but also seems like Reddie stopped trying to Commune by that point, and Jirix delivered the message just fine.

I think others have touched on this fairly well, but whilst it's true they're bound by belief to some degree there's no real evidence of this being able to limit him in that way and we have things like the prophecy that got Durkon exiled that tell us the gods do communicate things somtimes.

That's a conjecture, if a reasonable one. But we don't know that he ever called Big Purple, we never saw him pray (except for spells) and we do know that he's trying to give the Dark One his space. The rest is speculation.

On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.

Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot. We also don't know how often if any they've talked previously, one very early jokish strip involving a colon tumour aside we've never seen if he even tries. The fact that he picked that as an option maybe suggests he does do that somtimes. We also don't know how much if any he knew about Odin's prophecy. His reaction on the cloud scene certainly implies he didn't have the full picture until it unfolded.

[Rogan]

I think others have touched on this fairly well, but whilst it's true they're bound by belief to some degree there's no real evidence of this being able to limit him in that way and we have things like the prophecy that got Durkon exiled that tell us the gods do communicate things somtimes.



Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot. We also don't know how often if any they've talked previously, one very early jokish strip involving a colon tumour aside we've never seen if he even tries. The fact that he picked that as an option maybe suggests he does do that somtimes. We also don't know how much if any he knew about Odin's prophecy. His reaction on the cloud scene certainly implies he didn't have the full picture until it unfolded.

It's also nearly impossible that TDO could not talk about the gates. This is a special deal between the old gods. The normal people by definition don't know about these things at all (rare exceptions notwithstanding) so they can't influence the gods with their belief in that regards.


Durkon told Thor he never answers the commune spell. Thor doesn't correct him there, instead he promises to set a special ringtone. Accepting Durkons calls is the exception. Not answering is the rule.

[Metastachydium]

Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot.

Equine faeces. Rubyrock is the highest ranking cleric he has, but presently she's largely irrelevant. Meanwhile, Durkon's the one who knows about the Gates, tries to protect them and is tasked with bringing over the Big Purple/Redcloak tandem to the slightly less dark side so that the Snarl issue can be permanently fixed.

We also don't know how often if any they've talked previously, one very early jokish strip involving a colon tumour aside we've never seen if he even tries. The fact that he picked that as an option maybe suggests he does do that somtimes. We also don't know how much if any he knew about Odin's prophecy. His reaction on the cloud scene certainly implies he didn't have the full picture until it unfolded.

V. Rogan's post above.

[Peelee]

I think others have touched on this fairly well, but whilst it's true they're bound by belief to some degree there's no real evidence of this being able to limit him in that way and we have things like the prophecy that got Durkon exiled that tell us the gods do communicate things somtimes.

I never said gods can't communicate. I said gods can't just have a chat whenever they feel like. Red loak doesn't seem to need much communication except to get his but in gear after gobbotopia, and TDO seemed to communicate that just fine.

Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot.

That's the highest ranked cleric in the Church of Thor. Which is not necessarily his most important cleric.

[mjasghar]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work. The example shown in comic was part humorous and partly showing Thor as the party type and partly plot device. Thor is more the chaotic forgetful type - it’s not done on purpose.
Wrt to the plausible deniability - the Plan requires negotiation at its end even if there’s no communication atm. So Redcloaks are disposable extremists deliberately set out to create a situation and then disposed off. To do what they have to do they do not seem to compromise in the slightest even to the extent of accepting self-mutilation. So it makes sense they won’t be around for the negotiations where some compromise will be needed.

[Peelee]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work.

Ah, the idealistic optimism of youth.

[Rogan]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work.

Do you mean the recent use of Commune?
Durkon was specifically asked to use this spell when he was dead and he was promised a reply.
So of course he expected things to work.

Or do you mean some other event? If yes, can you please link it or give us the number?

[Metastachydium]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work.

Then why did he complain that Thor never answers those?

The example shown in comic was part humorous and partly showing Thor as the party type and partly plot device. Thor is more the chaotic forgetful type - it’s not done on purpose.

Thor claims to remember everyone who ever worshipped him and knows the deepest secrets of a comparatively inconsequential cleric of his, Minrah. One could easily argue that this clashes with the idea that he can't even keep track of his high level clerics.

Wrt to the plausible deniability - the Plan requires negotiation at its end even if there’s no communication atm. So Redcloaks are disposable extremists deliberately set out to create a situation and then disposed off. To do what they have to do they do not seem to compromise in the slightest even to the extent of accepting self-mutilation. So it makes sense they won’t be around for the negotiations where some compromise will be needed.

Again, that's not a fact. That's merely a theory you like and I don't.
The thing is, we have no clear idea whatsoever of why Big Purple does his stuff the way he does.