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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: "Don't Screw This Up."

    The longer I think about it, the less the "rogue agent" approach seems like a likely play. Hard to imagine the end goal there: "whoops, Other Gods, that rebel goblin went and cast The Ritual, and now I have control of the Snarl's portal. Golly, how embarrassing! Well, now that I have it..." You can't really pass off an active hostage scenario as a serendipitous accident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.
    I could be wrong, but it feels like you're setting up a "TDO's silence is no worse than Thor's" argument here, which is confusing to me. I'm not saying TDO's lack of response to Redcloak is bad or shows flawed judgment, and I'm not comparing his behavior to other gods', except for the purpose of context.

    I'm saying I find TDO's lack of response STRANGE, especially given that he talked to Jirix and even gave a message for Redcloak and called him his "true prophet." If he agrees with what RC's doing, why doesn't he talk directly? We've seen Thor and Hel talk directly to their clerics.

    This isn't criticism. It's speculation.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-10-30 at 01:52 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I could be wrong, but it feels like you're setting up a "TDO's silence is no worse than Thor's" argument here, which is confusing to me. I'm not saying TDO's lack of response to Redcloak is bad or shows flawed judgment, and I'm not comparing his behavior to other gods', except for the purpose of context.

    I'm saying I find TDO's lack of response STRANGE, especially given that he talked to Jirix and even gave a message for Redcloak and called him his "true prophet." If he agrees with what RC's doing, why doesn't he talk directly? We've seen Thor and Hel talk directly to their clerics.

    This isn't criticism. It's speculation.
    My point is that it's not strange or suspicious at all, unless Thor's behaviour counts as strange and suspicious as well, because talking to one's clerics, important as they may be, is the exception rather than the norm. Jirix and Durkon are not good examples, because both of them only got to talk with their respective gods after they died, which Redcloak never did.
    I'm also trying to point out that Big Purple does talk to his clerics, if not directly, through the Mantle. And if
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    is to be believed, he even updates the info the Mantle imparts with its wearer whenever he finds out something important, since Redcloak tells Xykon it was created before the Gates were.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-10-30 at 02:02 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: "Don't Screw This Up."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    The longer I think about it, the less the "rogue agent" approach seems like a likely play. Hard to imagine the end goal there: "whoops, Other Gods, that rebel goblin went and cast The Ritual, and now I have control of the Snarl's portal. Golly, how embarrassing! Well, now that I have it..." You can't really pass off an active hostage scenario as a serendipitous accident.
    But if the rodcloak plan fails, the Dark One can claim the bearer of the crimson mantle was a rogue agent to save face with the other gods. Don't need to save face if you've already won.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    But if the rodcloak plan fails, the Dark One can claim the bearer of the crimson mantle was a rogue agent to save face with the other gods. Don't need to save face if you've already won.
    The main problem with the "plausible deniability" scenario is that the deniability is not at all plausible. Without their spells, clerics are basically warriors with a worse BAB, and the spells come from the cleric's god, so it's not like he couldn't have stopped the "rogue agent" any time he saw fit.

    Also, the Dark One is not on speaking terms with the other gods and as far as he knows, he has nothing to lose. Why on earth would he put effort into engineering a scenario where he can "save face"?
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-10-30 at 02:39 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: "Don't Screw This Up."

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    But if the rodcloak plan fails, the Dark One can claim the bearer of the crimson mantle was a rogue agent to save face with the other gods. Don't need to save face if you've already won.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    She created Durkon* with some innate knowledge (like the place of the Godsmoot) and he gave her regular updates through Commune.
    Is this your theory or do you have a source for this?
    (I don't want to imply that this answer is wrong, I'm just curious if / where it was explained)
    You're probably looking for this.
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    Correct, though obviously it came "pre-loaded" with certain knowledge, like language and whatever Hel told it to do as she was shoving it in there.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    You're probably looking for this.
    Thanks for the quote. But I was wondering more about the way Durkon gave his regular updates.

    I don't think a spell was specified in comic and I somehow thought it was a side effect of praying for new spells. Durkon was talking to Thor in the beginning, but this was a joke only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions



  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Regarding Durkon's importance. Up until he found out about the gates during the Azure City arc he was just another random cleric. We have no idea how often he's spoken to his high priest in the time thats passed since they became High Priest, (to say nothing of the previous one). Also Durkon notes during the desert arc that he doesn't think asking Thor for help will do any good, (though i think he says he will try, then of course Haley, Elan, and V get kidnapped and the things occupy their attention so he may never have got the chance)

    Also the mission Thor gives Durkon took some real explaining time, if he never normally prepares commune more than once Thor doesn't exactly have the time he need to explain it all to him, (not to mention he can't show him the gravestones which Thor seemed to think as really important). So they absolutely could have spoken in between on rare, (doesn't normally answer Durkon after all), occasions. For that matter the fact that Thor can set a "ringtone" for a specific Cleric implies he has a system in place so that he can talk to specific Clerics of import more regularly. That implies he does talk directly to some of his clerics.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    We have no idea how often he's spoken to his high priest in the time thats passed since they became High Priest
    We have a pretty good idea. He never had any contact to high priestess Rubyrock. He didn't even know she got this position.
    Durkons reward in Azure city was a diplomatic mission to the Dwarven land, to ask the former HP to end his exile. He never got the answer of HP Ruby, where she told him his exile was over and only learned this later, after his own death.

    So they (Thor and Durkon) absolutely could have spoken in between on rare, (doesn't normally answer Durkon after all), occasions. For that matter the fact that Thor can set a "ringtone" for a specific Cleric implies he has a system in place so that he can talk to specific Clerics of import more regularly. That implies he does talk directly to some of his clerics.
    Thor doesn't answer the calls rarely, <he> nev'r answer<s> those!

    So no, they were not talking before Durkon died.

    I also disagree with your conclusion regarding the implications of the ability to set ringtones, but I can't give a definite answer here. It just seems like Thor is known to ignore calls and in order to establish communication, something out of the ordinary has to happen. Maybe the high priest can talk to him from time to time, perhaps in order to let them know a godsmoot is necessary, but there might be another way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions



  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: "Don't Screw This Up."

    It should be noted that before Durkon learned of the Gates, he was already "special": He was the subject of a prophecy by Odin that Thor assumed his dad made for a good reason. It's possible Thor ghosted Durkon to avoid messing up Odin's plan.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It should be noted that before Durkon learned of the Gates, he was already "special": He was the subject of a prophecy by Odin that Thor assumed his dad made for a good reason. It's possible Thor ghosted Durkon to avoid messing up Odin's plan.
    This would imply that Durkon had a special ringtone already. The "don't take this call" tone. Possibly mute.

    I think Thor would have told Durkon about this, since Thor seems to take interest in his followers. Saying "I'm sorry I never accepted your calls before, but it could have messed up your destiny. I will listen now" would feel more in line with the way Thor acted around Durkon and Minrah. At least that's my impression. Might be wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions



  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    My point is that it's not strange or suspicious at all, unless Thor's behaviour counts as strange and suspicious as well, because talking to one's clerics, important as they may be, is the exception rather than the norm. Jirix and Durkon are not good examples, because both of them only got to talk with their respective gods after they died, which Redcloak never did.
    I'm also trying to point out that Big Purple does talk to his clerics, if not directly, through the Mantle. And if
    Spoiler: SoD
    Show
    is to be believed, he even updates the info the Mantle imparts with its wearer whenever he finds out something important, since Redcloak tells Xykon it was created before the Gates were.
    I still don't think that the situations are close enough to explain the silence. Thor is established as chaotic and not very organized, plus Durkon's quest is only one of many his followers are undertaking, so Thor's got a lot of irons in the fire, so to speak, and has to split his attention. TDO's situation is much more like Hel's -- she has a very specific plan to obtain more power/influence for herself, and it all hinges upon this singular cleric, so she talks to him all the time and gets updates, provides guidance, etc.

    We've been shown Hel, Loki, and Thor all interacting with their followers without the necessity of killing & resurrecting a messenger...I feel like there's something extra going on with TDO or else he'd be doing the same thing.

    As a side note, in SoD when Redcloak portrayed TDO as an eloquent and diplomatic leader, that could be reinterpreted as Redcloak having rose-colored glasses...but what's interesting is that Jirix portrayed him in the same light and with the same eloquent personality. Either Jirix was lying too, or TDO really is like that - even if he's also a vicious warlord.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    If that's the case, I find it very strange that TDO has never talked to his "true prophet" Redcloak, but willingly talked to Jirix and even gave him a message for Redcloak -- albeit a very blunt, unhelpful message.
    TDO spoke to RC through Jirix. Divine beings do stuff like that with some frequency. (See also Cumae, Delphi, Dodona (in the Greek Traditions) as places where Oracles are used as a conduit for deities to speak to mortals).

    What's going on here? Why hasn't TDO ever talked to his own high priest, even if just to encourage him?
    Maye he's not a kinder, gentler deity. "You are wearing an artifact, now go out there and do stuff for me!" seems to be TDO's attitude.
    Why was he so quick to reach out to Jirix by comparison?
    Quick? That doesn't scan for me. Jirix died, TDO was going to see him when he showed up in that afterlife, and IIRC raise dead (the spell) had been granted to RC who brought Jirix back.
    Given how much attention was paid to it in #1206, I get the feeling we're supposed to think something's not quite right about his dynamic with Redcloak.
    What do you mean, not quite right? TDO does things his way. Who are you, or I, mere mortals, to say what is the correct way for TDO to interact with his clerics?
    I just don't know how to reconcile that with how he called Redcloak his "true prophet" and gave Jirix a message for him.
    See above (in re Oracles). Deities speak to their servants in whatever ways they find suitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Equine faeces. Rubyrock is the highest ranking cleric he has, but presently she's largely irrelevant. Meanwhile, Durkon's the one who knows about the Gates, tries to protect them and is tasked with bringing over the Big Purple/Redcloak tandem to the slightly less dark side so that the Snarl issue can be permanently fixed.
    And to put the cherry on top of this sundae, Thor gave Durkon some special tools (gloves, hammer) to go forth and do great things.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I still don't think that the situations are close enough to explain the silence. Thor is established as chaotic and not very organized, plus Durkon's quest is only one of many his followers are undertaking, so Thor's got a lot of irons in the fire, so to speak, and has to split his attention. TDO's situation is much more like Hel's -- she has a very specific plan to obtain more power/influence for herself, and it all hinges upon this singular cleric, so she talks to him all the time and gets updates, provides guidance, etc.
    No, Hel's situation is nothing like Big Purple's. We have seen all of Hel's clerics ever during this iteration of the world. Meanwhile, Big Purple is the deity of a very populous species with lots of clerics. He does have other duties, the Plan's just more important (just as saving the world forever should be more important for Thor than soaking his feet).

    We've been shown Hel, Loki, and Thor all interacting with their followers without the necessity of killing & resurrecting a messenger...I feel like there's something extra going on with TDO or else he'd be doing the same thing.
    We've seen Thor talk to a living cleric only once, and that was only possible because he died and was resurrected with instructions in his pocket. Meanwhile, Loki only ever gave a "go there" direction to Hilgya because it was in his interest. Big Purple told a lot more to Redcloak and his predecessors through the Mantle and gave them enough context to see the bigger picture. Loki, on the other hand, basically tricked Hilgya.

    As a side note, in SoD when Redcloak portrayed TDO as an eloquent and diplomatic leader, that could be reinterpreted as Redcloak having rose-colored glasses...but what's interesting is that Jirix portrayed him in the same light and with the same eloquent personality. Either Jirix was lying too, or TDO really is like that - even if he's also a vicious warlord.
    Yeah. And I like that.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Maye he's not a kinder, gentler deity.
    No argument from me. I never said he was.

    What do you mean, not quite right? TDO does things his way. Who are you, or I, mere mortals, to say what is the correct way for TDO to interact with his clerics?
    That wasn't what I meant. Not quite right doesn't mean "I'm criticizing your behavior." It means "something doesn't add up about all this, there's a factor going on here that we don't know about, and I wonder what it is."

    Deities speak to their servants in whatever ways they find suitable.
    Jirix died, TDO was going to see him when he showed up in that afterlife, and IIRC raise dead (the spell) had been granted to RC who brought Jirix back.
    This is the discrepancy that I'm fixating on. Deities choose to speak however they want, but I find it strange that Redcloak (High Priest, most important divine mission) has never spoken to TDO directly when Jirix (subservient, diplomatic leader) has. I don't think every cleric is automatically guaranteed a chat with their god while waiting for their resurrection, so why did TDO find it so important to speak to Jirix? Jirix would've stayed behind and been leader of Gobbotopia either way. So it does feel to me like TDO took a moment to be eloquent and encouraging with Jirix, when he didn't really need to. Which doesn't match with Redcloak's experience of him as an aloof, silent taskmaster.

    My first instinct would be to say "oh, he just likes Jirix more than Redcloak." And maybe that's what's going on, maybe Redcloak is the eldest child who's held to a higher standard and has to do all the dirty work, while the younger child Jirix gets attention and support from Dad. But maybe it's something else. Maybe talking to a dead cleric is easy, because they're stopping by your house while you're home, whereas talking to a living cleric is like a Zoom video call with bad reception -- a lot of hassle for not much payoff.

    Either way, I think it's demonstrated that Redcloak wishes he had more direct support/interaction with his deity, and I believe we will see this become important soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    No, Hel's situation is nothing like Big Purple's. We have seen all of Hel's clerics ever during this iteration of the world. Meanwhile, Big Purple is the deity of a very populous species with lots of clerics. He does have other duties, the Plan's just more important (just as saving the world forever should be more important for Thor than soaking his feet).

    We've seen Thor talk to a living cleric only once, and that was only possible because he died and was resurrected with instructions in his pocket. Meanwhile, Loki only ever gave a "go there" direction to Hilgya because it was in his interest. Big Purple told a lot more to Redcloak and his predecessors through the Mantle and gave them enough context to see the bigger picture. Loki, on the other hand, basically tricked Hilgya.
    I don't think we know enough to say "talking to a living cleric is ONLY possible if XYZ." The examples of cleric-to-god interactions in the comic seem to imply there are a number of ways to get in touch. I think it's much more demonstrated that the gods don't LISTEN to those clerics' attempts at communication very often, but I do believe they are possible because we've seen them happen.

    Incidentally, how did Loki "trick" Hilgya? She asked to find Durkon and he told her where to go. That she first had to exorcise a vampire from his body doesn't change the fact that she still got to find and confront him and, according to her reaction, get what she personally needed out of it.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-11-01 at 10:58 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    I feel like folks are really overthinking this. Gods don't communicate directly with living mortals except in very rare circumstances - usually in the "Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style. It's not just the agreement between them to keep the peace that stops them from doing so, it's just their nature.

    It's going to be the case with ANY story involving deities - why don't they just solve the problem? Because the story isn't about them, it's about mortal people who are like us overcoming challenges. In Lord of the Rings, it's clear that the Valar want Sauron defeated, so why don't the help more than the occasional bit of luck or prophetic vision? Because that's not the way it works. Durkula was a unique case, otherwise characters have to just stumble around hoping they get it right just like in real life.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: "Don't Screw This Up."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I don't think we know enough to say "talking to a living cleric is ONLY possible if XYZ." The examples of cleric-to-god interactions in the comic seem to imply there are a number of ways to get in touch.
    And where did I say this is not the case?

    I think it's much more demonstrated that the gods don't LISTEN to those clerics' attempts at communication very often,
    Yes.

    but I do believe they are possible because we've seen them happen.
    See above.

    Incidentally, how did Loki "trick" Hilgya? She asked to find Durkon and he told her where to go. That she first had to exorcise a vampire from his body doesn't change the fact that she still got to find and confront him and, according to her reaction, get what she personally needed out of it.
    "Trick" might be a strong term. My point is, Big Purple tells his Bearers exactly what it is that they are expected to do. Loki ignored Hilgya right until the point when he became actively interested in killing "Durkon" (i.e. Greg) and then he sicced Hilgya on the Church of Hel without ever mentioing what that involves or who exactly she's sent after.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by PontificatusRex View Post
    I feel like folks are really overthinking this.
    Ah, so you've met us

    Gods don't communicate directly with living mortals except in very rare circumstances - usually in the "Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style. It's not just the agreement between them to keep the peace that stops them from doing so, it's just their nature.

    It's going to be the case with ANY story involving deities - why don't they just solve the problem? Because the story isn't about them, it's about mortal people who are like us overcoming challenges. In Lord of the Rings, it's clear that the Valar want Sauron defeated, so why don't the help more than the occasional bit of luck or prophetic vision? Because that's not the way it works. Durkula was a unique case, otherwise characters have to just stumble around hoping they get it right just like in real life.
    I never suggested that TDO ought to solve Redcloak's problems. I never even said that, in a vacuum, TDO's silence is in any way notable. Radio silence from deities seems to be par for the course in Stickverse.

    My point is that breaking this radio silence to give Jirix encouragement he didn't seem to need, and give Redcloak an unhelpful secondhand reminder of the pressure that's on him, feels like it's implying/setting up something out of the ordinary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    And where did I say this is not the case?
    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    We've seen Thor talk to a living cleric only once, and that was only possible because he died and was resurrected with instructions in his pocket.
    Emphasis mine; maybe you weren't talking about it in the broader "physically capable" sense, but that's how I originally read it.

    "Trick" might be a strong term. My point is, Big Purple tells his Bearers exactly what it is that they are expected to do. Loki ignored Hilgya right until the point when he became actively interested in killing "Durkon" (i.e. Greg) and then he sicced Hilgya on the Church of Hel without ever mentioing what that involves or who exactly she's sent after.
    Yeah, each god interacts with their followers in a very on-brand way. As I said in my response to P-rex, the thing that's striking to me is how TDO has put out two personas: the Dark One that's demanding and aloof with his High Priest and expects him to just do his bidding without any nurturing/revelations, and the Dark One who directly reveals himself to a lower cleric just to inspire him on a much less warlike/aggressive mission.

    Both of those versions of the Dark One make sense in context. And I know that gods can behave differently in different circumstances...because regular mortals do that, too. But because Redcloak drew attention to it in #1206, I feel like we're going to find out something about this difference.

    Yeah. And I like that.
    I didn't respond to this in my last post so I wanted to circle back: I really like that aspect too!

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    I've been mulling this topic over for a bit. (Slow day at work.) I think there's three main factors to consider here.

    1.) Jirix is the only one to have had direct contact with the Dark One in many years.

    Nobody else has talked directly to the Dark One in decades, as far as we know. Not Redcloak, and (importantly) not the other gods. It's been reinforced multiple times that the Dark One has been incommunicado for several decades. He asked Jirix to pass a message on to Redcloak, so he's taking an interest in what's happening in the material plane, which makes it even weirder that he won't talk to Redcloak directly. Hel, as a counter-example, was perfectly happy to chat to her minion. So we know that this communications blackout is, on some level, a choice.

    Jirix also wasn't dead for very long. Probably less than an hour. In his own telling of the story, the Dark One appeared to him as soon as he appeared in the afterlife. So the Dark One isn't off on god business elsewhere, he's actively monitoring the situation. Plus, he's got a lot riding on this. What else is he doing, advising goblin dirt farmers somewhere?

    2.) Jirix's encounter with the Dark One is presented in crayon form.

    This meeting, which is the only scrap of information we have about the Dark One that isn't 30 years old, is explicitly framed as a story that Jirix is telling. That doesn't necessarily mean that Jirix is lying, but it opens the door to it not quite having been true. It's not third-person-omniscient but first-person-limited, and that's probably important.

    In my opinion, the first two points hint that there's something wrong with the Dark One. He's dead, or imprisoned, or corrupted, or has been replaced with an impostor, or something. He either can't talk to Redcloak directly (because he's incapacitated) or he won't (because Redcloak would notice if something was wrong with the Dark One.) The Plan is running on autopilot, and the Dark One's clerics are tapping into a reservoir of leftover divine energy.

    Jirix's testimony is the only evidence we have that the Dark One is around, and is who we believe he is. It seems to me that Jirix might've been corrupted as well, or he's lying, or whatever replaced the Dark One successfully deceived him, or maybe what came back after his resurrection wasn't Jirix.

    However, there's a problem with this.

    3.) Jirix is barely a character.

    Jirix hasn't been seen for about a decade. When he was in the comic, he was a tertiary character in a side-plot. What do we actually know about him? Well, he's probably mid-level, and Xykon considers him fun. He's probably more Chaotic and/or has a higher Charisma stat than Redcloak. That's pretty much it.

    If the Dark One wasn't actually around, it would be another huge twist. It would be another complication that would likely throw the plot in a different direction. It feels... strange to have this sort of thing hinge on the word of a character who's otherwise totally unimportant to the plot. Jirix could be an unreliable narrator, but he hasn't exactly been set up as one. You can do this sort of thing as an author, but I don't think OOTS is the kind of story that pivots on the actions of extremely minor NPCs that briefly appeared ten years ago.

    So, TL;DR: No idea what's going on! But this is all very weird, and that's probably important.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Emphasis mine; maybe you weren't talking about it in the broader "physically capable" sense, but that's how I originally read it.
    What I meant was "his special ringtone came with the mission, and Thor didn't give him said mission until after he died, so were it not for his death, his calls would have ended up in the 'never answered' bin with all the others."

    Yeah, each god interacts with their followers in a very on-brand way. As I said in my response to P-rex, the thing that's striking to me is how TDO has put out two personas: the Dark One that's demanding and aloof with his High Priest and expects him to just do his bidding without any nurturing/revelations, and the Dark One who directly reveals himself to a lower cleric just to inspire him on a much less warlike/aggressive mission.
    Again, I'm pretty sure he would have revealed himself to Redcloak id he died and what the Mantle imparts with its Bearers is a bunch o' revelations, big time.
    For all we know, not pestering Redcloak might as well be his way of expressing his satisfaction (if Red's doing evrything right, he doesn't need instructions).

    Both of those versions of the Dark One make sense in context. And I know that gods can behave differently in different circumstances...because regular mortals do that, too. But because Redcloak drew attention to it in #1206, I feel like we're going to find out something about this difference.
    One way or the other, I'm sure we'll see.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khay View Post
    I've been mulling this topic over for a bit. (Slow day at work.) I think there's three main factors to consider here.

    <snip>

    So, TL;DR: No idea what's going on! But this is all very weird, and that's probably important.
    Thanks for your comments! I agree on Jirix's relative unimportance (although there's still a prevalent theory amongst forum readers that Jirix will assume the Crimson Mantle after Redcloak's character arc leads him to die without redemption), and that also makes me think he's more likely to have been honest in his revelation.

    Also, the "TDO is actually dead/captured/missing" theory has never stuck for me, because like you said it'd be a weird confusing direction to take the story without any extra setup. Plus, I think if clerics are praying to a specific god they do actually need that god's active approval for their prepared spells. The Creed of the Stone is different, but theistic clerics do seem to need that actual back-and-forth from an extant god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    What I meant was "his special ringtone came with the mission, and Thor didn't give him said mission until after he died, so were it not for his death, his calls would have ended up in the 'never answered' bin with all the others."
    Good to know, thanks for clarifying.

    For all we know, not pestering Redcloak might as well be his way of expressing his satisfaction (if Red's doing evrything right, he doesn't need instructions).
    Which is entirely possible, though it would mean that TDO is also not very in tune with his own High Priest, because his silence does seem to actually be a source of stress for Redcloak.

    Before #1206, Redcloak's conversation with Jirix made total sense in the moment. It was only when I re-read it recently that I thought, hey, Redcloak has never spoken to The Dark One directly about anything, never gotten advice from him, never told him how things are going, and now we know that it bothers him! I wonder if Redcloak was masking some jealousy of Jirix in that moment.

    Ugh, why couldn't *I* have gotten impaled by an iron prison bar?? Jirix has all the luck.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I wonder if Redcloak was masking some jealousy of Jirix in that moment.

    Ugh, why couldn't *I* have gotten impaled by an iron prison bar?? Jirix has all the luck.
    Why, he definitely was! (Sadly, I can't think of a single character who could one-shot him with just a prison bar, so it'll probably remain a sweet, sweet dream.)

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Depends -- is it a +5 Iron Prison Bar of Badassery?

    Reminds me of the Holy Brick on a Rope from The Weekly Roll

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Depends -- is it a +5 Iron Prison Bar of Badassery?
    If O-Chul used one of those, the cagesmith definitely wasn't happy afterwards.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Obviously, V had secretly cast greater magic wapon on the prison bar. Her direct attacks were just a distraction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions



  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PontificatusRex View Post
    I feel like folks are really overthinking this.
    In other news, fish swim in water.
    "Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style.
    Yeah, that's how prophecy is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    So no, they were not talking before Durkon died.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I guess I should have specified "except early comic jokes"... well, that's my mistake.

    But even if we don't ignore it, this was only about spell selection. Granting spells is something The Dark One does for Redcloak as well, so it's not an unfair advantage Durkon has.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions



  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Hel had one cleric. Of course she answered its calls. Even after it made a few friends.

    Thor and Loki have uncounted clerics. I'd imagine they get tired of answering calls, which is why they hire sec... devas to do the job.

    But TDO has another issue:

    Interacting on the mortal plane costs divine energy.

    As a new deity, TDO must dole out spells to all his clerics so they can increase the amount of belief and worship he gets, with the goal of earning devotion and souls. This costs divine energy, and the largest single consumer of this energy is our buddy Redcloak. Granting a single 9th level spell consumes the energy of 81 first level spells, and we know RC isn't frugal with his casting.

    Commune is not free. How much more does it cost for a diety to actually converse with a mortal?

    Aside from the devotion granted by each goblinoid who was slain in RC's quest, has Redcloak actually spread the worship of or belief in TDO? Has he brought in a single new soul?

    It seems to me that RC is not the only one investing heavily in a sunk cost fallacy.

    It may be that, having spent so much already, there would need to be a really good reason for TDO to pay the roaming charges to talk to Redcloak.
    Last edited by brian 333; 2021-11-04 at 09:37 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    TDO running into TNSTAAFL made me grin.

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