OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Hurkyl]

See, and I read that as referring to destroying the gate. That she thinks the only way they can stop him is to blow it up. Just like they did at Azure City.

The paladins specifically. I don't read anything in that conversation as implying that Serini thinks herself incapable of stopping Xykon from claiming the gate.

[Oromin]

The paladins specifically. I don't read anything in that conversation as implying that Serini thinks herself incapable of stopping Xykon from claiming the gate.

There's the "Old lady with a blowgun" comment from the first panel. It's flippant, but she is arguing against the team up O'Chul suggested.

[The MunchKING]

Also, we can add "lie to paladins" to the pile of things that is unacceptable for Scribblers but fine for the OotS.

I thought the Good members of the OotS explicitly thought lying to the Paladins was an indication their actions weren't morally clean. I mean Hailey was kind of "I'm a Rogue, keeping secrets from people is kind of my deal" and as far as I can see she didn't lie to any of the Paladins after the Trial except as a gambit to break mind control. Roy didn't like it, but was convinced it was necessary to save the world.

[Liquor Box]

1. We know she has some method of finding out whats going on now. That doesn't mean thats allways been the case, there's no indication she was taking any special precautions when she got ambushed and she didn't retreat to Krageors tomb till after that. It's quite possible and i'll admit i've been assuming as such, that she only started paying attention after Xykon took a chunk out of her and probably through scrying magic thats focused on the gates somehow, 9would make sense, the monitoring system would give her somthing to work with i should think). I don't know if she can get through the cloister spell, (i wouldn't put it past her but i wouldn't assume it), but she could certainly observe the actions at Soon and Girriad's gates upto the point they blew. From that she's knows team evil doesn't want to break the gates, ergo Lirian's must have been an accident.

Likewise she seems aware Xykon wants to take over the world. He can't do that if it gets blown up so no matter what he isn't going to break the last gate, (she may even expect him and redclock to put the effort into fixing the others just for better leverage). So any breaking of the gate is going to be strictly a last resort before death for him. Conversely once he gets himself into power she probably doesn't expect him to sit on a gate, (unless she knows he's planning to move it, but even then it's debatable). In short any attempt to take him down has a lot lower odds of having the gate caught in the crossfire. Worst comes to worst it's no better than trying to stop Xykon now. But it could be a lot better than that. Remember her goal is prevent the end of the world. provided he dosen't cause that Xykon can do whatever he want in the meantime as far as she's concerned. She's playing the odds here. It's not guaranteed to be any better in future, but it can't be any worse, (in her mind).

I completely agree that she doesn't think Xykon doesn't want to destroy the gate. She basically says that, so we don't need to argue about that.

Your remaining point is that a later group of adventurers who seeks to displace him would be less likely to destroy the gate in the conflict than the order would. I see no reason for that assumption. If anything a later group would be more likely because they wouldn't know how dangerous the gate is it - just as likely they would see the gate as the source of Xykon's power so seek to deliberately destroy it.

But that's if Xykon doesn't destroy it straight away. While I agree with you that Xykon does not want the gate destroyed, any attempt to use the Snarl to control the world (as Xykon plans to do) will end in its release. Now Serini doesn't know that, but it seems obvious that that must at least be a risk.

2. The Paladins know the enough to explain all their actions to date, (and in fact do explain all their actions to date vis a vis the gates at least), and she knows the orders been in contact with them. She has no reason to think they know anything she doesn't that would matter. Remember her sole goal is preventing all the rifts getting unsealed. Everything else isn't just secondary, it's completely irrelevant. If taking Xykon out represented the lowest long term danger to the remaining gate, she'd go for it. But so far everyone's managed to screw it up and Xykon needs the gate intact. In the short terms thats the lowest danger and in the long term it is at worst equally bad either way and potentially much better.

No, Serini doesn't ask the paladins any questions about Xykon or about what he knows about the gate. Now that you mention that does seem silly of her - she could have questioned the paladins without giving away any more of her own secrets than she chose to anyway. I have a hard time believing that she didn't even see a chance that some people who had actually fought Xykon before might have some useful information about him.

We also don't know what side moves she might be pulling. Lets be fair here, if her sole goal was "turn the gate over to Xykon" she could have done that weeks ago when they first arrived by any number of direct and indirect methods to lead him through the defences. So there's at least one more angle she's playing in this game. But defeat Xykon clearly isn't it. (Complete WAG, she has a stone tablet with the rift sealing spell on it, she's planning a last stand where she loses just slowly enough to convince Xykon and Redcloak it's a real defence so they'll trust the tablet when they fuind it amongst her belongings after killing her and will use it to seal up the rest of the rifts for their own leverage/benefit).

Her goal obviously isn't to turn the gate over to Xykon. She clearly thinks that not attacking him directly is the lowest danger to the gate - and that is where I think she is wrong, for the reasons given in my previous post.

3. I think i covered this adequately. She has every reason to believe without any conflict happening around the gate nothing Xykon will do will destroy it and whilst any future killing off of Xykon might result in it's destruction there's at least a chance it won't, potentially a very good one in her mind if she doesn't know Xykon intends to move it, (he's not likely to want to rule the world from the north pole after-all).To some degree no matter what she does there's a way it can go all wrong, she just has to pick which she believes based on her info has the lowest odds of going wrong. Remember even if The Order beats Xykon, keeps the gate intact, and somehow manages to seal the other rifts again, someone could come along and do this whole cycle all over again. Nothing she can do about that, she'll be dead of old age long before that. There's allways going to be future threats to the gates of some kind from mortals, best she can do is set things up for the best odds of it working out.Nothign suggests she's not figured that part out for herself.

No I don't think you have covered this adequately at all.

How do you think she imagines that Xykon would use the Snarl to take over the world? What possible way could Xykon harness the most powerful primal force in the universe without risking it getting free? It should be obvious to her that there is at least a risk. As much as Xykon genuinely doesn't want to release the snarl and destroy the world, any fiddling with the gate or Snarl by him is super risky.

As for future adventurers, as I mentioned above, they would probably be higher risk of destroying the gate than the Order. At least the Order knows that they should target Xykon and not the gate. A future group might simply go straight for destroying the gate and ignore Xykon, given that it would be the source of his power.

I still think the idea Serini thinks Xykon can't be stopped is a completely wrong read of her conversation with the paladins. Not just in the context that she was playing devil's advocate to flesh out an alternative that O-Chul appears to have never even considered, but look at her wording in #1228:

O-Chul: You... believe it will require actions we are unwilling to take because we are paladins?

Serini: No, I think you stopping him will require actions you'll consider fully within bounds for your oaths. That's the problem.

And the emphasis is even the author's, not mine.

How does that suggest that she thinks Xykon can be stopped? So Serini thinks that O-Chul trying to stop Xykon would mean he does things that he think necessary, but Serini would rather he didn't do. I don;t get how that relates to Serini's confidence in her defences.

Serini pretty much confirms she thinks that her defences will fail when she says 'existing was nice' when she kidnapped the paladins. Take that together with her spending a whole page talking about how Xykon winning wouldn't be so bad in a relative sense, and not sparing a single speech bubble to mention her defences, and I find it hard to believe she thinks her defences will prevail.

I thought the Good members of the OotS explicitly thought lying to the Paladins was an indication their actions weren't morally clean. I mean Hailey was kind of "I'm a Rogue, keeping secrets from people is kind of my deal" and as far as I can see she didn't lie to any of the Paladins after the Trial except as a gambit to break mind control. Roy didn't like it, but was convinced it was necessary to save the world.

Yeah, the whole 'double standards' argument seems to revolve around pointing out that the Order sometimes does annoying/smug/evil/stupid (or whatever) things too. But I think just about everyone knows the Order sometimes does bad or stupid things. There's only a double standard if people are saying Serini is doing wrong, but denying that the Order does.

[Hurkyl]

How does that suggest that she thinks Xykon can be stopped? So Serini thinks that O-Chul trying to stop Xykon would mean he does things that he think necessary, but Serini would rather he didn't do. I don;t get how that relates to Serini's confidence in her defences.

It doesn't. The conversation suggests almost nothing at all about Serini's confidence in her defences.

[Peelee]

Roy didn't like it, but was convinced it was necessary to save the world.

I agree, characters can convince themselves that lying to paladins (as the Order did the entire time they were working for Shojo, since he explicitly outlined how the entire plan required going behind the paladins' backs as the entire reason he needed non-paladins) is fine under the circumstances.

It doesn't. The conversation suggests almost nothing at all about Serini's confidence in her defenses.

Aye. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

[danielxcutter]

I see you guys using a lack as evidence, so I dunno if this conversation is going to go anywhere.

[Peelee]

I see you guys using a lack as evidence, so I dunno if this conversation is going to go anywhere.

Using lack of evidence as.....?

[danielxcutter]

I’m just seeing people say Serini doesn’t explicitly say she doesn’t have a plan to take down Xykon so she must.

I mean, Roy isn’t denying the fact that he’s also an epic psion but nobody assumes he is.

[Hurkyl]

I’m just seeing people say Serini doesn’t explicitly say she doesn’t have a plan to take down Xykon so she must.

Shojo tells us of the "dungeon full of powerful monsters" plan, and we have pretty strong corroborating evidence.

We've also seen on panel the gate trap plan for keeping people away from the gate. (remember, that's the goal: keep Xykon away from the gate, not "take down Xykon")


Edit: Just to be clear, I'm only listing what we can be almost completely certain she has (which is more than nothing). I do think we have circumstantial reason to believe there's more, such as the prepared ambushes we've seen her use against the order.

[Quizatzhaderac]

New headcannon: the acid is maid so potent by cursing the chlorine. The -5 chlorine forms H5Cl which dissolves everything except containers.

[Oromin]

It doesn't. The conversation suggests almost nothing at all about Serini's confidence in her defences.

That conversation doesn't much no. But 1189 shows she thinks there's a solid chance of nonexistence. If she has a plan beyond "delay Xykon as long as possible" she has some serious reservations about its chances.

[Vikenlugaid]

Usually it’s not good news if you’re lying to the paladin you know. I wonder if they’d have given it to Xykon just to spite the paladins.

In this comic? Several good things happened precisely because someone was lying to the paladins.

[Peelee]

I’m just seeing people say Serini doesn’t explicitly say she doesn’t have a plan to take down Xykon so she must.

Really? I don't recall anyone saying that. I've seen the opposite, people saying that the lack of her talking about it means she must not, and I have pointed out that that does not necessarily follow.

Also, I'm assuming you mean, "a plan beyond what we've already seen," because she clearly does have a plan, which consists of a number of doors that are all trapped to Tra sport to another location, at least. We don't know if there is more to it or not.

That conversation doesn't much no. But 1189 shows she thinks there's a solid chance of nonexistence. If she has a plan beyond "delay Xykon as long as possible" she has some serious reservations about its chances.

She says that once a second group, which has destroyed Gates to prevent Xykon from getting them, start trying to figure out where the Gate is while Xykon is there.

[Hurkyl]

What were the reasons again to think Serini thinks she has no chance to protect the gate from Xykon? IIRC, that inference was just being made from:

• Team Evil is still in Monster Hollow
• Serini doesn't tout her chances when conversing with the paladins
• Reading the conversation with the paladins as an explicit admission she thinks there's no chance

[Oromin]

What were the reasons again to think Serini thinks she has no chance to protect the gate from Xykon? IIRC, that inference was just being made from:

• Team Evil is still in Monster Hollow
• Serini doesn't tout her chances when conversing with the paladins
• Reading the conversation with the paladins as an explicit admission she thinks there's no chance

I don't know that she thinks she has no chance at all, but I doubt she thinks it's very high. My reasons.

1. Comments towards impending nonexistence. This is after neutralizing the paladins and she clearly thought she could take the Order. I doubt that comment was about them.

2. Despite having ample time to prepare (she's had lots of forewarning) she hasn't done anything to Team Evil yet.

3. She's actively refusing assistance. She doesn't seem to think the paladins or the Order will affect the outcome. Except to screw it up.

4. If she knew she could stop Xykon before he reaches the gate then the conflict with the Order is moot. They're not a risk to her gate unless Xykon is about to score.

5. Team Evil is a legitimately terrifying threat. It's perfectly reasonable for her to wonder if she can take them.

6. She was angry at O'Chul for destroying the Azure City Gate. If she had a way to stop Xykon she'd presumably consider that preferable to Xykon winning at Azure City.

7. She said she wasn't here to protect the status quo. Stopping Xykon does protect the status quo. Lecturing that Xykon winning isn't the end of the world doesn't make a ton of sense if you're convinced he won't win.

8. This is purely subjective on my part, but to me Serini is acting like someone who's lost hope. She seems bitter and angry. She has good reasons to be. She talks like the remaining choices are between bad and worse.

[Vikenlugaid]

Sorry, I misread it. The overall point remains even if that specific example doesn't, of course.

Also, we can add "lie to paladins" to the pile of things that is unacceptable for Scribblers but fine for the OotS.

And the funny thing is Serini didn't really lie to the paladins. She told them her plan abour erasing their memories, her motivations for doing that, her "fight" with Xykon and her "transformation"... And as far as we know those are true facts, she didn't really tell them any lie, she only used some "answer right and reward simulation" when she was asking them about her friendship with the trols, and then laughed at Lien for taking that words litterally.

[Vikenlugaid]

I’m just seeing people say Serini doesn’t explicitly say she doesn’t have a plan to take down Xykon so she must.

I mean, Roy isn’t denying the fact that he’s also an epic psion but nobody assumes he is.

I don't think she has a plan because she didn't say she hasn't a plan. I think she has a plan because all the other Scriblers had a big epic last line of defense, like Soon's ghost martyrs, Dorukan's runes, Lirian's guardian virus and Draketooth's phantasm and other traps and spells that gone out because of familicide.
We habe only seen the first lime of defense of this gate till now, the "teleport trap", it would be really anticlimatic if there isn't something more, something far more powerful than that, specially in the LAST gate.
Let's just say Elan would be really dissapointed.

[Peelee]

I don't know that she thinks she has no chance at all, but I doubt she thinks it's very high. My reasons.

1. Comments towards impending nonexistence. This is after neutralizing the paladins and she clearly thought she could take the Order. I doubt that comment was about them.

All of a sudden, several warring factions come to her area specifically to look for the Gate, all of them have destroyed all the other Gates.

I agree it's not about just the paladins, but I understand why she'd make a doomsay there.

[Ionathus]

1. Comments towards impending nonexistence. This is after neutralizing the paladins and she clearly thought she could take the Order. I doubt that comment was about them.

2. Despite having ample time to prepare (she's had lots of forewarning) she hasn't done anything to Team Evil yet.

3. She's actively refusing assistance. She doesn't seem to think the paladins or the Order will affect the outcome. Except to screw it up.

4. If she knew she could stop Xykon before he reaches the gate then the conflict with the Order is moot. They're not a risk to her gate unless Xykon is about to score.

5. Team Evil is a legitimately terrifying threat. It's perfectly reasonable for her to wonder if she can take them.

6. She was angry at O'Chul for destroying the Azure City Gate. If she had a way to stop Xykon she'd presumably consider that preferable to Xykon winning at Azure City.

7. She said she wasn't here to protect the status quo. Stopping Xykon does protect the status quo. Lecturing that Xykon winning isn't the end of the world doesn't make a ton of sense if you're convinced he won't win.

8. This is purely subjective on my part, but to me Serini is acting like someone who's lost hope. She seems bitter and angry. She has good reasons to be. She talks like the remaining choices are between bad and worse.

1. I think that comment was in regards to "well, the Gate Wreckers are en route and we all know how well that goes when they tangle with Xykon."

2. Why would she spend her prep time on trying to confront them openly? She's a rogue, and they don't know she's still alive. The best use of her resources would be to bide her time and keep them spinning their wheels, while she creates lots of deathtraps on the second layer of defense. Sunny, the AMF chamber, all of these wall-and-ceiling monsters, her assorted magic items -- these could have all been part of those preparations.

3. Actively refusing assistance does not mean you think you're gonna lose -- sports teams don't choose to start unqualified rookies in the Big Game if they're confident about their team. If anything, accepting people you don't think are qualified for the job is a sign of desperation and not liking your current chances.

4. That's a good point. However, because the Order has already surpassed the first hurdle and Team Evil hasn't, the Order is more likely to get to the Gate before Team Evil does, and make themselves explosively inconvenient at exactly the wrong location.

5. Fair point, I agree.

6. I think Serini has made her "destroying any Gates is bad" stance pretty clear. It's less about "you idiots, now it's MY job to stop him!" and more about "you idiots, WHY would you weaken the fabric of the universe at all??"

7. "Protecting the status quo isn't my job" is not the same statement as "I would not protect the status quo if given a reasonable chance to do so." Serini plainly doesn't plan to just roll over and let Xykon take the Gate. She's just saying "I am willing to risk Xykon ruling the world to prevent the eradication of everything" and the Order & Paladins (as far as she understands it) are saying "we are willing to risk the eradication of everything to prevent Xykon from ruling the world." You can make good arguments for both points of view there (in fact, Roy defended the latter POV in the zombie-dragonback fight in WXPs). But being willing to risk Xykon's rule is not the same thing as saying "I actively prefer Xykon's rule."

8. This is the strongest argument IMO, and I think it's strong enough to stand on its own. I think a lot of the other points are on shaky reasoning, but Serini's personality is definitely defeatist and cynical by every available metric.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, I really don’t get the “Serini isn’t being defeatist and cynical, she might have a plan and/or is doing the Right Thing:tm: with what she knows” line of thought; if anything else I think she’s making that pretty damn obvious.

[Ionathus]

Yeah, I really don’t get the “Serini isn’t being defeatist and cynical, she might have a plan and/or is doing the Right Thing:tm: with what she knows” line of thought; if anything else I think she’s making that pretty damn obvious.

Yeah. You can both have a plan and still be pessimistic about its chances, even if you think it's your best option.

[danielxcutter]

Eh… don’t really expect she has much of a plan. Maybe going through the motions, at most.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I really don’t get the “Serini isn’t being defeatist and cynical, she might have a plan and/or is doing the Right Thing:tm: with what she knows” line of thought; if anything else I think she’s making that pretty damn obvious.

You can make all the right moves and still lose.

[Vikenlugaid]

Being realistic is not the same as being defeatist. Thinking the world could end soon when this is the last gate and all the other 4 have been destroyed, is not defeatism, is just not being blind fool. She could have the best plan in the world and still think that.

But if she was defeatist, she wouldn't be doing anything.

[Shining Wrath]

If Serini has lost all hope, what will restore it? She could be a powerful ally, and at a minimum the Order needs her to not be actively trying to interfere with their efforts.

[bunsen_h]

Let me reiterate somthing, despite a gap in the middle she's been involved in the gate situation since before basically anyone else in the comic was even born, (Jullio and Tarquin's team being possibble exceptions),

Point of order (literally!): V was born a few decades before the Scribblers were doing their stuff.

Rocks are principally composite mixtures of mineral species. And all minerals are ceramic materials by the definition I learned. (Unless you wanted to call native metal a mineral I guess). I feel like calling a ceramic/ceramic composite a ceramic is fair? At least when discussing chemical properties? Certainly I wouldn't just call the bulk of the mass inclusions.

What is the definition you're using? I'm thinking of minerals such as halite, selenite, limestone, and iceland spar, which I wouldn't consider ceramics by the common (i.e. non-technical) use of the word.

Well I mostly use it to etch stainless steel. No clue if it has any applications in organic chem. It's just the most aggressive substance I've ever used that's close to the appropriate color.

I was unclear, I think. That particular substance-identified-by-a-person's-name wouldn't likely be useful in organic chem, but organic chem is littered with those kinds of things. I was good at recognizing and remembering reaction patterns, things like "elements with lone pairs of electrons (e.g. oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur) in particular kinds of structures have a common way of reacting under certain conditions". I was terrible with test questions along the lines of "show the mechanism of the Hogfarb reaction" or "when is Goldblatt's reagent used for reductions?".

[Oromin]

If Serini has lost all hope, what will restore it? She could be a powerful ally, and at a minimum the Order needs her to not be actively trying to interfere with their efforts.

I don't think the order necessarily needs to restore it though I hope they can. They just have to convince her that the gods will destroy the world rather than let Xykon win.

[Vikenlugaid]

If Serini has lost all hope, what will restore it? She could be a powerful ally, and at a minimum the Order needs her to not be actively trying to interfere with their efforts.

I can see Serini being the key to convince Redcloak, being the first good humanoid we have met who is friend with "evil" monsters, can't see anyone better for that task.
And I think that is the only argument the order can give Serini to convince her to join forces with them.

[Peelee]

I don't think the order necessarily needs to restore it though I hope they can. They just have to convince her that the gods will destroy the world rather than let Xykon win.

Completely with you here. I'm excited to see how they can do that.