OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

Because he's frozen in the act of destroying the sapphire.

And this is reading -- that she's seeing a cue to action rather than a cue to think up something on her own -- is strengthened by the way Miko has been looking for signs from the Twelve Gods about what she should do.

Yep, fully agree (probably in part why we had the flashback panel to that moment earlier in this book). It's probably one of Miko's more reasonable interpretations, honestly.

[Oromin]

i've never heard of an oral tradition about the location of a place becoming garbled, except for maybe handreds years after the significance of that place ended.

Well, the most famous example, at least to the western world, is probably Troy. But personally I think the largest scale incidence was immediately following the Spanish arrival in the Americas. For example https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...computer-model

[Bacon Elemental]

I think the fact that there are two actors (that we know of) who both want to "Use the Gate as a means to dominate/blackmail their peers/the world" often gives an extra dash of confusion to the debate about Xykon.

As We Know It:

The Dark One (And redcloak) know that the Snarl can't be controlled whatsoever, and plan to use the Gate in the only way possible - to blackmail the gods into letting TDO achieve his goals by teleporting the Gate into their home planes.

Xykon apparently thinks (due to Redcloak) that the Gates can be used in a ritual that will in some way give him the power of the Snarl in a controlled or defused manner that he can use to rule the world. (Shojo theorises for a bit on this all the way back in #278, well before we know the true nature of the Ritual, as a reason for why Dorukan chose to put a giant self destruct rune on his Gate)

Serini: Smug grandma, but seems very sure that the last Gate falling into the hands of Xykon will not lead to the immediate unravelling of the world, suggesting that she, like Dorukan, Shojo, and the entire Order of the Stick until Durkon asked Thor, thinks that his plan is more nuanced than "Threaten the worlds utter annihilation in a matter of minutes by uncorking the Snarl's last restraint and hope that unproveable threat works forever"

[Hurkyl]

The gates have to be defended forever. Serini isn't immortal. Oral history gets garbled over generations. As far as the Scribblers knew there would still need to be gate guardians a thousand years from now.

i've never heard of an oral tradition about the location of a place becoming garbled, except for maybe handreds years after the significance of that place ended.

It's also worth noting that to become an oral tradition, you have to have elders who have the knowledge permanently etched in their minds repeatedly share the story with the next generation to permanently engrave it on their minds.

Serini wasn't raised on stories of the gate location -- all she gets is a one-shot information transfer of the precise location, and whatever hazy memories of her adventures she can recall.

[danielxcutter]

The Plan is about TDO trying to gain the ability to move a Rift to another plane as leverage in his negotiations with the other gods. Xykon probably doesn't know this. He might suspect that Redcloak is lying to him about that, and if those suspicions are confirmed he'll blow up Redcloak, maybe drop a few Hellballs on Gobbotopia and then move on to another scheme if left alone. But the entire reason he joined at first is so he could use it as a method of world domination.

Even if getting some sort of control over the Snarl isn't actually possible and he's realized that by now, that's still the outward intention of the Ritual. More importantly, that's what Serini thinks is possible. Dorukan adding a self-destruct rune on his Gate is presumably for the same reason.

Whether Xykon actually would be capable of controlling it enough for his purposes is irrelevant for this particular argument, frankly, because Serini thinks that's his plan and is acting accordingly.

[Vikenlugaid]

The coordinates were cryptic, and in a diary full of useless pages. Xykon is just far smarter than he looks when he wants something important, and Serini was an epic rogue who none knew were she was. And none knew about the gates on the first place, if teamevil wouldnt defeated Lirian, and uf Lirian wouldn't say too much... The posibilities of someone using her diary to find the gates were almost 0.

[Liquor Box]

Well, the most famous example, at least to the western world, is probably Troy. But personally I think the largest scale incidence was immediately following the Spanish arrival in the Americas. For example https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...computer-model

Yeah, I think both are a case of history looking back and not having an accurate record, rather than people forgetting while it was still relevant. In the case about the Amazon population, I suggest people in one village would not have forgotten where the neighbouring villages were simply because they did not keep a written record, which seems more analogous to whoever has been bestowed guardianship of the gates forgetting where they are.

It's also worth noting that to become an oral tradition, you have to have elders who have the knowledge permanently etched in their minds repeatedly share the story with the next generation to permanently engrave it on their minds.

Serini wasn't raised on stories of the gate location -- all she gets is a one-shot information transfer of the precise location, and whatever hazy memories of her adventures she can recall.

Is Serini supposed to know the location of all the gates?

I'm not sure how much further we can take the question of whether the co-ordinates are able to be remembered. It was discussed in a previous thread (maybe not with you). It seems to me that we remember lots and lots of numbers that are not etched in our memories over generation - our date of birth, our address, our previous address, our phone number and often the phone numbers of those close to us, the year of significant historic events. A more pertinant example is that i think a lot of people here can remember the number of several of their favourite strips.

The coordinates were cryptic, and in a diary full of useless pages. Xykon is just far smarter than he looks when he wants something important, and Serini was an epic rogue who none knew were she was. And none knew about the gates on the first place, if teamevil wouldnt defeated Lirian, and uf Lirian wouldn't say too much... The posibilities of someone using her diary to find the gates were almost 0.

I think that the chances of someone using Serini's diary to find the gates was zero in exactly the same way that the orders chances of defeating xykon are zero.

[Hurkyl]

I'm not sure how much further we can take the question of whether the co-ordinates are able to be remembered. It was discussed in a previous thread (maybe not with you). It seems to me that we remember lots and lots of numbers that are not etched in our memories over generation - our date of birth, our address, our previous address, our phone number and often the phone numbers of those close to us, the year of significant historic events. A more pertinant example is that i think a lot of people here can remember the number of several of their favourite strips.

Many of those numbers you were literally raised to know. Many of those numbers you use routinely, whether directly or just through their repeated occurrence in culture and social settings. The rest you were deliberately taught to learn and tested on the knowledge. For all of those numbers, you have hard reference materials you can refer back to if you ever forget them, as well as a number of other people you can ask.

Serini gets the gate coordinates once in her lifetime. They weren't something she was drilled upon through education or deliberate memorization, or something she assimilated through routine use. She doesn't have others to ask if she forgets, unless she wants to violate her agreements. She doesn't have a hard reference material to refer back to if she forgets, unless she creates it herself.

And that's what she did, she created the hard reference material herself.

I can tell you, for example, that I couldn't tell you a single digit of my cell phone number, because it's a number I virtually never use (I don't use it for incoming communication except when absolutely necessary), and haven't bothered to go through a memorization process.

[Pirate ninja]

Many of those numbers you were literally raised to know. Many of those numbers you use routinely. The rest you were deliberately taught to learn and tested on the knowledge. For all of those numbers, you have hard reference materials you can refer back to if you ever forget them, as well as a number of other people you can ask.

Serini gets the gate coordinates once in her lifetime. They weren't something she was drilled upon through education or deliberate memorization, or something she assimilated through routine use. She doesn't have others to ask if she forgets, unless she wants to violate her agreements. She doesn't have a hard reference material to refer back to if she forgets, unless she creates it herself.

And that's what she did, she created the hard reference material herself.

But surely she would drill herself on them. We could do a simple experiment. Nominate a couple of strips for the other to remember, and then check next week if we are right (honesty system)?

[Hurkyl]

But surely she would drill herself on them. We could do a simple experiment. Nominate a couple of strips for the other to remember, and then check next week if we are right (honesty system)?

If she goes that route, she still needs the reference material to refer back to until such time she's satisfied she has them permanently memorized.

I remember Serini talking to the paladins is #1228 and the surrounding pages, since it's come up a lot in discussion. I'll remember that in a week, and maybe even a month from now. I certainly won't remember it 5 years from now, though, unless I make a deliberate effort of having a way to retain the information.

[Peelee]

Serini obviously does think that Xykon will use the Snarl to rule the world.

Can you explain that?

[Oromin]

But surely she would drill herself on them. We could do a simple experiment. Nominate a couple of strips for the other to remember, and then check next week if we are right (honesty system)?

She's not getting any younger. By the time my grandfather passed he couldn't remember me or my siblings.

[Oromin]

Yeah, I think both are a case of history looking back and not having an accurate record, rather than people forgetting while it was still relevant. In the case about the Amazon population, I suggest people in one village would not have forgotten where the neighbouring villages were simply because they did not keep a written record, which seems more analogous to whoever has been bestowed guardianship of the gates forgetting where they are.

It was more that most of them died of disease and the rest were enslaved until no one was left to remember. Which seems analogous to the Draketooths. I doubt any of them successfully passed down the gate coordinates.

[Vikenlugaid]

I think that the chances of someone using Serini's diary to find the gates was zero in exactly the same way that the orders chances of defeating xykon are zero.

Exactly. The plot needs to happen. But Order chances of defeating Xykon are higher than that anyway. Xykon.is very powerfull but he is "just an epic lich" vs a fighter with a sword and a special move made for defeating undead casters. He is not a god or the Snarl, Xykon is still something "terrenal". Hard? Yes. Low chance? Yes. Still plausible.
The diary thing however needs a long list of unusual things to happen.

[danielxcutter]

Can you explain that?

Uh, what else would he be using in this scenario? If it was a case of “he literally can’t do anything with the Snarl” she’d have said it. Heck, she probably wouldn’t even have to ambush and mind-wipe them, she could just flat out tell them and it’d probably be enough.

[Peelee]

Uh, what else would he be using in this scenario? If it was a case of “he literally can’t do anything with the Snarl” she’d have said it. Heck, she probably wouldn’t even have to ambush and mind-wipe them, she could just flat out tell them and it’d probably be enough.

This was a case of me being stupid - I misread "ruling" as "destroying".

[Metastachydium]

This one is more complicated than it appears, in part because we're missing an important piece of information: How did Xykon find out Serini's diary had the information he was looking for? Who's responsible for that?

Travelling around alone and staying in touch with people is part of the reason why she could be tracked down in the first place. So no, that's not an excuse.

I'm still not sure her actions and outlook are hypocritical, given the circumstances and actions taken were so different-- and specific to keeping gates standing, she has done her job; the Order and the paladins didn't do theirs.

Well, if ambling around with the locations of all the Gates in her pocket as if she were invincible was her job, then yes, she did her job.
I agree that Hinjo should have told the Guard about the ghost martyrs, but other than that, no, unlike Serini the Order and the paladins did do what they set out to.

In any case, I don't see what it would change if this was hypocritical or if she acknowledged that. "You screwed up, I screwed up, so let's work together"?

Again, I'm on the record saying she has no reason to trust the Order. She just also doesn't have any business staying all the way up on the high horse.
And with the strawman out of the way (again), the thing with her hypocrisy is that it's not terribly endearing and it makes her concerns ring a tiny bit hollow.

I don't think that would make a lot of sense from her point of view, or rationally speaking. It might make sense on some morality-play level, but it doesn't strike me as a decision based in the character's motivations and goals. If anything, "I made a mistake and put the gates at risk; I'm not going to take any more chances" makes a lot more sense.

That's speculation. She gave no hint of taking any blame for what she did when she recounted the story of her mutilation. Heck, she implies that she would have continued as before were it not for her disfigurement.

I have the impression you are essentially boiling down Serini to that, indeed. I think that is more likely the source of our disagreement.

Let's stop pretending I'm making this up. Serini basically says this much verbatim (see panel no. 11 here and page no. 2 here).

[danielxcutter]

Roy was extremely snarky(and still is somewhat now) back in the early days to basically everyone, but it was rather different than Serini’s IMO. V was pretty high on their metaphorical horse, but they got served enough humble pie to solve food shortages for centuries so…

[Metastachydium]

Roy was extremely snarky(and still is somewhat now) back in the early days to basically everyone, but it was rather different than Serini’s IMO. V was pretty high on their metaphorical horse, but they got served enough humble pie to solve food shortages for centuries so…

Yeah, one of the reasons why I don't really like DCF is that much the entire party seems to consist of petty, weirdly awful people (even Elan is kind of mean, if very incompetent about it).

[Hurkyl]

The first impression I get is that Serini just left Kraagor's Tomb alone during the time between its creation and when Xykon maimed her.

But on further analysis it isn't clear that she abandoned that duty in the interim. First off, we only know that she went adventuring, but we don't know anything about the nature of those adventures... except that she made friends with a group of Trolls in the interim.

The more I think about it, the more my expectations are that her adventures were, at least in part, related to fortifying her gate.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, one of the reasons why I don't really like DCF is that much the entire party seems to consist of petty, weirdly awful people (even Elan is kind of mean, if very incompetent about it).

Eh, Roy was all Big Snark^TM for quite a while after that as well. I think he started cutting down on the vitriol after talking with the Deva.

[Ionathus]

her idiotic negligence (an alternative spelling of The Life and Times of Serini Toormuck, Halfling Rogue) is at least indirectly responsible for the destruction of all Gates thus far and certainly caused Dorukan's death.

There was no real reason for her to write the coordinates in her diary and then carry them around with her. She could just have left that at home and used a Greater Teleport scroll to get back if she needed it in a hurry.

I have absolutely no interest in the argument about whether or not Serini should've written the coordinates down in the first place. I find it so fundamentally and self-evidently important for somebody to have written them down somewhere that I figure I'll just be talking past anyone who believes otherwise.

So instead I'm just going to address the "Serini should've guarded the document better" argument on its own.

If Serini had left the coordinates at home, locked behind a bajillion locks and spells and traps and whatever, Xykon would still have tracked it down, broken through all of the defenses with a few Meteor Swarms and Superb Dispellings, and taken the diary anyway. And then we would be arguing about how "idiotically negligent" she was to have not kept it on her person at all times. She was, after all, an epic halfling rogue, on the move, with an encrypted diary that was only able to be cracked due to the...events of SoD.

Xykon wanted the diary, and nothing Serini could've done was going to stop him. He iced her and took what he wanted, because the dude is freaking scary and determined. Being unable to protect her diary, wherever it is, from probably the most powerful "mortal" on the planet is not idiotic negligence by a long shot.

[danielxcutter]

It kinda seems like he took her out with one spell, so… I’d be more charitable if he’d had to blast his way in and probably take a bit more damage before getting it.

Also I think there are ways to set traps to prevent a Gordian Knot situation but I’m not sure. Maybe a magic effect that burns the papers when it’s shut off?

[Hurkyl]

If Serini had left the coordinates at home, locked behind a bajillion locks and spells and traps and whatever, Xykon would still have tracked it down, broken through all of the defenses with a few Meteor Swarms and Superb Dispellings, and taken the diary anyway. And then we would be arguing about how "idiotically negligent" she was to have not kept it on her person at all times. She was, after all, an epic halfling rogue, on the move, with an encrypted diary that was only able to be cracked due to the...events of SoD.

Xykon wanted the diary, and nothing Serini could've done was going to stop him. He iced her and took what he wanted, because the dude is freaking scary and determined. Being unable to protect her diary, wherever it is, from probably the most powerful "mortal" on the planet is not idiotic negligence by a long shot.

Not to mention Serini had absolutely no idea of the threat. Which, IMO, is amusingly apropos to the discussion about Serini ghosting V while planning her own ambush.

(at least, that's how I understand the encounter: that he took her completely by surprise)

[danielxcutter]

The thing is, V was explicitly calling to warn her. V started calling before BRItF right?

[Metastachydium]

If Serini had left the coordinates at home, locked behind a bajillion locks and spells and traps and whatever, Xykon would still have tracked it down, broken through all of the defenses with a few Meteor Swarms and Superb Dispellings, and taken the diary anyway. And then we would be arguing about how "idiotically negligent" she was to have not kept it on her person at all times.

Oh yes? How come he didn't find the Gate yet with his "Meteor Swarms and Superb Dispellings"? Serini was more than capable of hiding things in a way that XYkon has failed to bypass as yet, so this argument falls flat on its face.

[Hurkyl]

The thing is, V was explicitly calling to warn her. V started calling before BRItF right?

I thought that started during BRItF. But it doesn't matter, since Xykon attacked her prior to #0001.

But in case you missed the clarification I edited in, my point was to compare Serini being unaware Xykon was after her with the Order being unaware Serini was after them.

[Shining Wrath]

If Sereni really wanted to hide her diary, putting it in the dungeon with the Gate would probably have done it.
Also, an epic rogue really should have been able to rig a trap for the diary. Something like "If I'm reduced to zero HP the diary goes into my Bag of Devouring" contingency spell.

[danielxcutter]

Or maybe just a simple magic effect connected to the magic lock holding up a vial of alchemist's fire or something right above it. Try to cheese it by disjoining it and the vial drops, incinerating the diary. And that's not including making the writings themselves magical, like the ever-memeable Explosive Runes. Something like a Thought Bottle might also be safer, but in that case at least Rich probably doesn't even know they exist so yeah that one's not a problem.

[Fyraltari]

If Sereni really wanted to hide her diary, putting it in the dungeon with the Gate would probably have done it.

But then she couldn't write in it anymore.