OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

Yes. It is starting to become maddening, or at least exhausting, to have every mention of "Man, Serini's attitude really stinks." be met with accusations of giving the Order a "free pass". Like these forums haven't spent a solid decade and a half discussing and criticising every aspect of these characters already.

Can't speak for everyone, but I've made no secret of my agreement that Serini is a jerk, a cynic, a real arrogant old codger. I want to see them defeat her and turn her thinking around. I don't think many people (any people?) are defending her personality or her interpersonal skills.

I disagree with any assessment that extends into "stupid" or "evil" ("evil" not so much in this thread, but others), because I think the reasoning behind those judgments is faulty.

[Vikenlugaid]

Roy has been dissing Elan since single digit strips. It's a running gag. (As Sergeant Helka might intone:"Lighten up, Francis!")

Yeah but this time he did it right after he apologized for treating him like that in the past... And Serini is the hypocrate...
And why can't Serini's insults be a gag too?

[danielxcutter]

Can't speak for everyone, but I've made no secret of my agreement that Serini is a jerk, a cynic, a real arrogant old codger. I want to see them defeat her and turn her thinking around. I don't think many people (any people?) are defending her personality or her interpersonal skills.

I’ve seen at least two or three; maybe you have them blocked? I’m detecting more than a little of “Serini’s only shortcoming is not knowing about the Godsmoot stuff and she had no way of knowing that anyways so she’s not to blame at all” from some of the arguments and I strongly disagree with that.

I also think she’s acting dumb, but like “goddamnit old lady really?” rather than “you need to go to the Old Halfling’s Home”.

[Vikenlugaid]

Can't speak for everyone, but I've made no secret of my agreement that Serini is a jerk, a cynic, a real arrogant old codger. I want to see them defeat her and turn her thinking around. I don't think many people (any people?) are defending her personality or her interpersonal skills.

I disagree with any assessment that extends into "stupid" or "evil" ("evil" not so much in this thread, but others), because I think the reasoning behind those judgments is faulty.

I do defend her personality, people don't need to be polite to have a good personality. The worst people that I know are really polite, full of good words for everyone, and I know several persons who speak like jerks most of the time, but are totally golden hearted at the end of the day.

[Peelee]

People criticise the Order all the time, what are you on about?

That said, they do receive less criticism, because 1) the comic itself has already gone out of its way to call them out on their flaws, and 2) the characters have acknowledged this and made active efforts to better themselves.

I really just don't understand this line of thinking that "the Order said rude things in the past, therefore you can't ever criticize Serini".

I have no problem with criticizing Serini. I have criticized her myself. I have a problem with people criticizing Serini because how dare she try to stop the heroes? If someone says she's a smug ass, I agree. I've done it in this very thread. If people say that she should team up with the Order immediately when she has explicitly stated why she does not want to team up with them, and she is a fool for not immediately trusting them, then I have some words to say. And when those claims end up in "of course I feel that way, because she acts just like the protagonists, and how dare she," then I have no hesitation to point that out.

Can't speak for everyone, but I've made no secret of my agreement that Serini is a jerk, a cynic, a real arrogant old codger. I want to see them defeat her and turn her thinking around. I don't think many people (any people?) are defending her personality or her interpersonal skills.

I disagree with any assessment that extends into "stupid" or "evil" ("evil" not so much in this thread, but others), because I think the reasoning behind those judgments is faulty.

Seconded. The whole thing.

[Psyren]

People criticise the Order all the time, what are you on about?

That said, they do receive less criticism, because 1) the comic itself has already gone out of its way to call them out on their flaws, and 2) the characters have acknowledged this and made active efforts to better themselves.

I really just don't understand this line of thinking that "the Order said rude things in the past, therefore you can't ever criticize Serini".

Seconded.

Coworkers ribbing each other and calling complete strangers insulting names when they're going out of their way to warn you of danger are different things and should be looked at differently. Serini and the Order are not comparable.

[Peelee]

Seconded.

Coworkers ribbing each other and calling complete strangers insulting names when they're going out of their way to warn you of danger are different things and should be looked at differently. Serini and the Order are not comparable.

I have to note there is a small gap between "the Order falls other people names" and "Belkar actively murdered people on whims and the only punishment the rest of the Order ever imposed was kicking out of their group one time". I don't quite think "but they're chums!" quite covered that.

[Larsaan]

"Belkar actively murdered people on whims and the only punishment the rest of the Order ever imposed was kicking out of their group one time".

Belkar's worst deeds (while a member of the Order, anyway) happened during his incarceration in Azure City, and then during the period Roy was dead. The first of those events lead to him getting branded with the Mark of Justice, and after the second event, Roy and Haley only decided to let matters lie because he's fated to die very soon anyhow.

[Psyren]

I have to note there is a small gap between "the Order falls other people names" and "Belkar actively murdered people on whims and the only punishment the rest of the Order ever imposed was kicking out of their group one time". I don't quite think "but they're chums!" quite covered that.

Roy covered that pretty extensively I thought. If you can come up with a better solution that the deva could I'm all ears. Not that it matters anymore since Belkar's epiphany.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes. It is starting to become maddening, or at least exhausting, to have every mention of "Man, Serini's attitude really stinks." be met with accusations of giving the Order a "free pass". Like these forums haven't spent a solid decade and a half discussing and criticising every aspect of these characters already.

I tend to see this your way.

And why can't Serini's insults be a gag too?

Indeed, why can't they? Rich has been writing a comic strip with a lot of jokes in it since strip 0001.
I find your "question" to be vacuous.

[Vikenlugaid]

I tend to see this your way.
Indeed, why can't they? Rich has been writing a comic strip with a lot of jokes in it since strip 0001.
I find your "question" to be vacuous.

But people are saying Serini is a bad person (or worse) for that.

[Peelee]

Belkar's worst deeds (while a member of the Order, anyway) happened during his incarceration in Azure City, and then during the period Roy was dead. The first of those events lead to him getting branded with the Mark of Justice, and after the second event, Roy and Haley only decided to let matters lie because he's fated to die very soon anyhow.

Ah, yes. Rampant murdering gets a sentence of "stop it, you (unless you're out of a city)". One wonders why MoJ isn't the be-all, end-all of all OotS judicial systems, effective as that is.

As for Roy and Haley, I fail to see how "if we ignore it it'll solve itself" is much better.

Roy covered that pretty extensively I thought.

Except, as linked above, he's not even doing that anymore. He's willing to keep an eye on Belkar, but if Belkar murders people, well, that's OK, Roy can do absolutely nothing about it and the universe will sort it out!

Well, I should be fair here. Roy knows that Belkar is on the clock at the moment. Still pretty ****ty to do jack all until the guy croaks, but it's not as if, say.... If Roy did not know that Belkar would die, that Roy wouldn't try to arrange things so Belkar would get off with no punishment whatsoever, right? .... Right?

The Order has done some pretty ****ty things, but we cut them some slack because those things were done because the Order had the best interests of the universe in mind, and did what they thought was best. The exact same is true for Serini, but god forbid she get any slack whatsoever, she's just a bitch who's hobbling the people that we like! If she wanted understanding, she shouldn't have been so smug, which we all know is the worst possible crime one could commit. How dare she?

[Larsaan]

Peelee... I don't know how to respond to you. It's like, you start out taking the actual argument, and then you roll it up with every single bad-faith and poorly thought out negative thing ever said or alluded to about Serini, like some kind of forum Katamari.

I'm sorry, I don't mean this as an insult, but I don't even know where to start with that mess. And I'm not going to argue for positions I don't hold.

[Peelee]

And I'm not going to argue for positions I don't hold.

If you don't homd that position, I'm not arguing against you. I have no problem with disliking Serini. I have no problem with thinking she's an arrogant jerk (heck, I think she's an arrogant jerk!). The only thing I have a problem with is the argument that she should be teaming up with out of hand, despite her reservations, and she is foolish/stupid/irrational for not doing so. She's doing what she thinks is best for the world. She's wrong, and is messing up, but the intent is there and so I'm not going to condemn her for that or call her an idiot for that, just as I don't condemn the Order or call the Order idiots for being wrong or messing up themselves. My only issue is people who cut the Order slack and then condemn Serini for the exact same things. If you don't do that, then nothing I say applies to you.

[Shining Wrath]

Roy covered that pretty extensively I thought. If you can come up with a better solution that the deva could I'm all ears. Not that it matters anymore since Belkar's epiphany.

In fact, the chart in that shows Belkar's level of evil doing dropping off dramatically, even at the time of Roy's death - and he's gotten even less evil since then.

Also, I confess to being amused by "The offspring of Sauron and Cruella de Ville".

[Psyren]

Still pretty ****ty to do jack all until the guy croaks,

How is keeping Belkar laser-focused on the greater evil "jack all?" And are we forgetting that Belkar saved the souls of every Dwarf on the planet?

[danielxcutter]

How is keeping Belkar laser-focused on the greater evil "jack all?" And are we forgetting that Belkar saved the souls of every Dwarf on the planet?

I mean Belkar HAS pulled a lot of crap. But he’s clearly actively started to become a better person for the past book and a half or so. That was like the entire point of his character arc as soon as he first freed Bloodfeast.

[Peelee]

How is keeping Belkar laser-focused on the greater evil "jack all?" And are we forgetting that Belkar saved the souls of every Dwarf on the planet?

How, exactly, has Roy been keeping Belkar laser-focused on the greater evil? I'll even go one farther - how has Roy treated Belkar any differently now than when they first joined up together? Because it seems like Roy is not doing anything differently, which would amount to "doing jack-all" in my book. Though, to be fair, I'm not counting the whole "Roy attempted to get Belkar off with no punishment form Azure City for the guy he killed there". So yeah, we can count that if you want to. I figured you'd like if we didn't, but I'm more than willing to be wrong. Would you like to count "tried to get a murderer off"?

[Psyren]

How, exactly, has Roy been keeping Belkar laser-focused on the greater evil?

By... the quest? The one they're on? Because of Roy? What would Belkar be doing now if they kicked him out?

[Peelee]

By... the quest? The one they're on? Because of Roy? What would Belkar be doing now if they kicked him out?

Oh, the fact that Roy is doing the best that he can to the best of his knowledge makes up for the fact that he's sheltering a murderer and protecting him from repurcussions? Thank you for making the exact point I explicitly stated a few posts ago! It's nice to know that you confirm that you cut the Order slack while you deny that same courtesy to Serini. Imean, the sheer audacity of her to be smug, amiright? Sure she's doing the best she can to the best of her knowledge, but she's smug, so **** her.

If you'd just agreed with me like three threads ago instead of just now, things would have been a lot simpler.

[Empiar93]

{Scrubbed}

[Ruck]

I really just don't understand this line of thinking that "the Order said rude things in the past, therefore you can't ever criticize Serini".

It's as simple as "People are being unduly harsh and unfair to Serini for reasons that don't actually track with her behavior." (See everything Peelee wrote for more detail.)

Essentially this.

You've said people have called Serini "perfect" five or six times when no one said such a thing. You even apologized once and then kept doing it anyway.

Not making the precisely most optimal choice does not make someone "idiotically negligent", as you put it.

Yes, this is a good way to phrase something that's been bugging me. Hindsight is 20/20; after something goes wrong, everyone has an opinion on how easily it could have been avoided.

[Hurkyl]

It is, at least, understandable someone can be frustrated with the endless circles of

A: Serini sucks.
B: She has her reasons.
A: I don't care about her reasons. They're stupid and she sucks.
B: What about Roy?
A: Oh, Roy has his reasons, he's fine.
B: *Exasperation*

[Ruck]

It is, at least, understandable someone can be frustrated with the endless circles of

A: Serini sucks.
B: She has her reasons.
A: I don't care about her reasons. They're stupid and she sucks.
B: What about Roy?
A: Oh, Roy has his reasons, he's fine.
B: *Exasperation*

Probably doesn't help that this has been going on in some form or another on the forums for about three months, and seems to be dusted up anew with every new comic.

[Larsaan]

The difference is that the Order (even Belkar!) has demonstrated introspection and awareness of their flaws. Serini, so far, has not.

I should add, I thought Serini was a fine character in the beginning. Not a perfect person by any means, but I could see where she was coming from, even if I disagreed with her and thought her arguments were flawed. It wasn't until "I decide who's on my side" that I lost respect for her, because it's basically her sticking her fingers in her ears and shouting LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU. It's what made me re-evaluate her actions up until then, and made me realize that she's actually been quite unpleasant and emotionally immature the entire time she's been on page.

I don't expect her to be reasonable about everything. I don't expect her to drop everything and start cooperating with the Order just like that. But I do expect her to not act like a toddler throwing a tantrum.

[Hurkyl]

The difference is that the Order (even Belkar!) has demonstrated introspection and awareness of their flaws. Serini, so far, has not.

I should add, I thought Serini was a fine character in the beginning. Not a perfect person by any means, but I could see where she was coming from, even if I disagreed with her and thought her arguments were flawed. It wasn't until "I decide who's on my side" that I lost respect for her, because it's basically her sticking her fingers in her ears and shouting LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU. It's what made me re-evaluate her actions up until then, and made me realize that she's actually been quite unpleasant and emotionally immature the entire time she's been on page.

I don't expect her to be reasonable about everything. I don't expect her to drop everything and start cooperating with the Order just like that. But I do expect her to not act like a toddler throwing a tantrum.

What changed, exactly? It was already blatantly clear that Serini had no interest in working with the protagonist faction. Heck, it was even already clear that her sense of humor was rather abrasive and patronizing (at least to those she doesn't respect), with the elaborate mocking she gave the paladins; e.g. that whole "Mayhaps I misjudged you, sir!" show she put on, or the directly insulting "you sweet dumb child".

As far as I can tell, the only thing that exchange did is kill the hopes of the people who wanted her to capitulate once the Order talked to her.

Edit: I wanted to add I don't find the "I decide who's on my side!" line to be abrasive or insulting or anything of the sort. The only thing "wrong" I can find with it is that people don't like the fact Serini rejects the implied offer of working together.

[Liquor Box]

My thoughts exactly. Fair point, Metastachydium: Serini's diary likely would be the absolute safest hidden away in the dungeon. But that does not mean it wouldn't also be relatively safe on her Epic Rogue person. Not making the precisely most optimal choice does not make someone "idiotically negligent", as you put it.

Relative to what? Publishing it a newspaper?

Sure she's an epic rogue, but most of the people they are going to be worried about will be operating at the level that they are going to be able to challenge epic characters. A low level characters could not have overcome the defences of any gate. So I'd say her back pocket would not have been a good place for it at all. She lost to Xykon, she is losing to the Order (despite being prepared with her allies). People have already proposed two superior options - leave it the dungeon, or leave it in a hiding place (if her ability to remember places means she can remember where she his it without writing it down).

People criticise the Order all the time, what are you on about?

That said, they do receive less criticism, because 1) the comic itself has already gone out of its way to call them out on their flaws, and 2) the characters have acknowledged this and made active efforts to better themselves.

Seconded

Essentially this.

I tend to see this your way.

+1

I disagree with any assessment that extends into "stupid" or "evil" ("evil" not so much in this thread, but others), because I think the reasoning behind those judgments is faulty.

Absolutely fair enough that you think this and say it. But I think the objection is to those who are going beyond disagreeing, and suggesting that people who are critical of Serini are somehow applying double standards because others have done stupid or bad things too.

Which I guess is also fair enough, but that theory just seems so wide of the mark because all those other people who did bad things also got criticised for it either in the comic or in the forum. This suggests to me that the double standard is being applied who those who object to (note - not those like you who merely disagree with it) the criticism of Serini, unless they also objected to any criticism of the plethora of other characters who did bad or stupid things. But at this stage I think those people have become so entrenched in their view that they are unlikely to be able to step back and examine it objectively.

Except, as linked above, he's not even doing that anymore. He's willing to keep an eye on Belkar, but if Belkar murders people, well, that's OK, Roy can do absolutely nothing about it and the universe will sort it out!

Where did you link? I can't find it.

[Hurkyl]

Where did you link? I can't find it.

Lasraan's link back to #0666.

Haley: "What do we do if we can't control him?"
Roy: "We run out the clock."

[Liquor Box]

Lasraan's link back to #0666.

Haley: "What do we do if we can't control him?"
Roy: "We run out the clock."

Thanks.

It is, at least, understandable someone can be frustrated with the endless circles of

A: Serini sucks.
B: She has her reasons.
A: I don't care about her reasons. They're stupid and she sucks.
B: What about Roy?
A: Oh, Roy has his reasons, he's fine.
B: *Exasperation*

I think we both know that's a pretty skewed representation of what happened.

First, I don't think anyone said they didn't care about the reasons. I think people instead have disagreed with her reasons (or said they don't justify her actions) and laid out why in detail. You may disagree with the people who are critical of her, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that are simply blindly (deafly?) closing their ears to her reasons and not caring about them.

Second, I don't think anyone has said "What about Roy?". Instead people have been saying "I don't agree with your criticism of Serini, so the only explanation is that there's some sort of double standard here". Roy only came up in the last couple of pages in response to repeated requests for an example of the double standard that has being alleged for months.

Third, I don't think the response to the Roy example has been "Oh, Roy has his reasons, he's fine". Instead the main response has been to point out that the case that he has done something bad has been tried and decided within the comic (and included a degree of criticism). I imagine that there were pages of debate about it back when it was topical.

Overall, Roy and Serini have each done very different things that may be arguably bad. I am sure you can understand that people can fairly look at each of those very different sets of circumstances and decide that there's different level of culpability? I mean it does seem very uncharitable to jump straight to an accusation of a double standard just because you disagree with them. Isn't it possible for intelligent people to examine an issue in good faith and arrive at a different conclusion?

[Larsaan]

I also want to dispute the notion that keeping Belkar in the party for his last seven weeks among the living is somehow reckless or irresponsible. Roy has always done an excellent job of keeping him in line, and since he joined the Order, the only times he's killed innocents has been when he was removed from Roy (IE, when he was put in solitary in Azure City, and when Roy was dead). Short of just executing him on the spot (and remember, he's effectively on Death Row already), keeping Belkar in the same party as Roy has consistently proven to be the best way to contain him.

What changed, exactly? It was already blatantly clear that Serini had no interest in working with the protagonist faction. Heck, it was even already clear that her sense of humor was rather abrasive and patronizing (at least to those she doesn't respect), with the elaborate mocking she gave the paladins; e.g. that whole "Mayhaps I misjudged you, sir!" show she put on, or the directly insulting "you sweet dumb child".

As far as I can tell, the only thing that exchange did is kill the hopes of the people who wanted her to capitulate once the Order talked to her.

Edit: I wanted to add I don't find the "I decide who's on my side!" line to be abrasive or insulting or anything of the sort. The only thing "wrong" I can find with it is that people don't like the fact Serini rejects the implied offer of working together.

I suppose nothing really changed (like I said, I'm starting to see that she was always like this), but I tend to give new characters a lot of leeway until I start running out of patience with them.

That said, the reason "I decide who's on my side" was the last straw for me, is that it's basically Serini declaring that she's decided her perception of the world is set in stone and she is not willing to receive any new information. That is a disastrous attitude for anyone with her level of responsibility to have, especially since we already know she's working with wrongful or incomplete information (such as thinking Haley is the leader of the Order). It is especially jarring for a Rogue, a class that's supposed to be cunning and good at gathering information.