OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Vikenlugaid]

Apparently Serini's decisions can only be smart or dumb here, and dumb definition is "everything which isn't the smartest posible thing to do".

[Hurkyl]

That said, the reason "I decide who's on my side" was the last straw for me, is that it's basically Serini declaring that she's decided her perception of the world is set in stone and she is not willing to receive any new information. That is a disastrous attitude for anyone with her level of responsibility to have, especially since we already know she's working with wrongful or incomplete information (such as thinking Haley is the leader of the Order). It is especially jarring for a Rogue, a class that's supposed to be cunning and good at gathering information.

Aren't rogues the class by far the most notorious for being on nobody's side but their own?

[Larsaan]

Sure, but they don't go around telling you that to your face.


... Long-running "SNEAK ATTACK!"-gag notwithstanding.

[Hurkyl]

Have we gotten more text of what exactly V was sending to Serini? It keeps being characterized as the Order offering essential information, but...

Order of the Stick to Serini Toormuck: We are working to safeguard your colleagues' --

[Hurkyl]

Sure, but they don't go around telling you that to your face.

You know, now that I really think about it... it's really strange people have been saying Serini would be a better person if only she opted to fake friendship with the Order so as to better betray them. (this isn't directed at you personally)

[Liquor Box]

Apparently Serini's decisions can only be smart or dumb here, and dumb definition is "everything which isn't the smartest posible thing to do".

I for one have been very careful to not characterise her recent decisions as dumb or moronic, only flawed. (I think the stuff with the diary was worse)

I am happy to agree that they are neither completely stupid, nor the smartest thing to do? Are we perhaps on the same page then?

[Larsaan]

You know, now that I really think about it... it's really strange people have been saying Serini would be a better person if only she opted to fake friendship with the Order so as to better betray them. (this isn't directed at you personally)

Well, I don't know that anyone's said it would be the more moral option, but it would probably have been the more clever option, and would have played more into her skillset. Personally, what frustrates me about Serini's attitude isn't that she's being mean to the Order, it's that I genuinely think she's getting in the way of her own goal.

[Hurkyl]

and would have played more into her skillset.

Would it? I'm not aware of her demonstrating any sort of talent in performing such a deception nor in using such a deception to capture someone.

She has demonstrated enough talent in performing the sort of unsuspecting ambush she did use that people in the forum were calling BS before Elan found a miracle way out.

(I mean, I'm not saying she can't do it, it's just that we haven't seen anything to indicate that's something she's good enough at to make it a clear better choice than the method she actually chose)

[Peelee]

I for one have been very careful to not characterise her recent decisions as dumb or moronic, only flawed.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

[danielxcutter]

How precisely do you think she’s flawed then? Not being able to know about the Godsmoot? Or something else?

[Empiar93]

B: What about Roy?
A: Oh, Roy has his reasons, he's fine.
B: *Exasperation*

See and here’s the problem: this isn’t what happens. This is what seems to happen:

B: What about Roy?
A: Yeah but he already said he was wrong and is actively trying to do better. The story itself has called him out, and besides, even if I didn’t criticize him that doesn’t mean Serini is above criticism.
B: *exasperation*

[Hurkyl]

See and here’s the problem: this isn’t what happens. This is what seems to happen:

B: What about Roy?
A: Yeah but he already said he was wrong and is actively trying to do better. The story itself has called him out, and besides, even if I didn’t criticize him that doesn’t mean Serini is above criticism.
B: *exasperation*

One of the things that irritated me personally is that the latest instance of the story itself -- using Serini's voice -- calling Roy (and friends) out has been denied in this discussion: casually destroying gates with little more thought than "It stops Xykon, and hey, there's another gate, right?" In addition to denying the criticism has any merit, it goes on as

"But Roy and the paladins realize they can't do this anymore! Roy even says outright they can't risk blundering about and causing damage!" people say.

The very next thing Roy and Haley do is plan an ambush on Team Evil that will damage the defenses.

"Hey, there are more defenses, right? So it's no big deal. It's not like this defense was doing anything anyways." people say....

[Larsaan]

Well, yeah. Roy knows that destroying the last Gate isn't an option, but he also knows that Team Evil has to be defeated, lest the gods decide to pull the plug regardless. Setting up that ambush was a risk (fighting Xykon is always a risk), but the worst case outcome is only that they let Team Evil figure out the nature of the dungeon a bit earlier than they would have anyway.

Because that's the thing, Xykon has the power and the time to inevitably figure out that his current methods aren't working. At that point he will likely bring in new talent, or worse, just start raining Meteor Swarms and Hellballs from above. It might take months, it might take years, but sooner or later the defenses will fall.

[danielxcutter]

If nothing else, he'll realize something's up when they go through all the dungeons and don't find it.

In fact, cutting Xykon's dungeon delving short is actually better, because he's gaining more XP thanks to the high-CR monsters Serini helpfully provided. Not too much, but any amount makes it harder and it's certainly going to have Redcloak and Oona turbo-leveling.

[KorvinStarmast]

I for one have been very careful to not characterise her recent decisions as dumb or moronic, only flawed.

Rich has been making flawed characters for the entirety of OoTS. Serini being flawed is to be expected.

What has puzzled me is the number of posts that seem to leave that out as a consideration.

[Psyren]

Oh, the fact that Roy is doing the best that he can to the best of his knowledge makes up for the fact that he's sheltering a murderer and protecting him from repurcussions?

Again, what repercussions? Even the Deva acknowledged that there isn't an authority equipped to hold him, and that slitting his throat isn't an acceptable alternative. I still haven't heard a better option.

And of course that was back when Belkar was truly being a jerk. Now that he's being a team player, keeping him with the team is even more ideal (and has saved all their bacon more than once.)

[Peelee]

Again, what repercussions? Even the Deva acknowledged that there isn't an authority equipped to hold him, and that slitting his throat isn't an acceptable alternative. I still haven't heard a better option.

And of course that was back when Belkar was truly being a jerk. Now that he's being a team player, keeping him with the team is even more ideal (and has saved all their bacon more than once.)

Again, repurcussions such as Azure City exerting it's Lawful authority on a crime commited within its jurisdiction. Roy worked to completely circumvent that and get Belkar off without any punishment, to the best of his ability. He actively protected Belkar from the consequences of his actions.

If you want to argue that Roy did this because, in Roy's estimation, it was the best course of action to help ensure the satefy of the world, then I would again welcome you to the idea that that is exactly the same case for Serini. What she is doing is, in her estimation, the best course of action to help ensure the safety of the world. That is the entire point that I have been making this whole time. She's wrong because she is incredibly stubborn and thinks she has it all figured out, to the point of not even listening when someone else actively tries to help. Which sounds eerily familiar. There are very few substantive differences, and I, for one, do not particularly care for the implications involved with any of them. At best, it is a double standard.

[Carl]

Rich has been making flawed characters for the entirety of OoTS. Serini being flawed is to be expected.

What has puzzled me is the number of posts that seem to leave that out as a consideration.

To be clear my own arguments have never been she isn't flawed, (she's definitely not the nicest or easiest person to get along with for 1), or even that she might not be making bad decision. But i'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt on anything we don't have any/sufficient information on, (mostly what she knows). And based on that i can't pick fault with her decision making. Is it necessarily what i would do? Probably not, no. Is it necessarily what might be considered most optimal? Again probably not. But does it have a consistent internal logic and reasoning behind it? Yes.

Honestly i think a big part of the issue here is the concept of subconscious biases. I've noted that from my perspective Serreni seems to have "don't allow the world to be destroyed" as one of hers. But that doesn't have to be the only major starting point. "Don't allow a colossal evil to rule the world and make everyone suffer" is an equally valid bias, (and there are others). Give two individuals with those specific biases the same information and they will come to different conclusions and decisions based on that information. Both of those people will have, (or can have), valid decision trees that make sense and are completely reasonable, but lead to completely different outcomes and actions. Be glad she doesn't have the latter actually, she'd probably have allready blown the gate to make the gods remake the world if she did.

@Liquor Box: I addressed the diary thing previously but to summarise. Soon, Girriad, and Serreni all had things on hand that would let someone discover the location of the other gates. Lirrian didn't but was getting summoned often, and Durokan we don't know. Also anyone who could take her diary from her could also just interrogate her, she only needs to point them at Azure city and they can get the rest of the locations. So she doesn't even have to remember them all, just the one thats in a big city. Keeping her diary on her wasn't perfect, but there really wasn't any perfect option, (it may also have her gate condition monitor in it, no idea, though i suspect not but mentioning it for completeness sake).

[Metastachydium]

If you want to argue that Roy did this because, in Roy's estimation, it was the best course of action to help ensure the satefy of the world,

(I'm honestly not sure why they were lugging him before his epiphany, though. Yes, he would occasionally kill stuff for them, but most of the time he was 80% just a pain in the behind, sometimes even moreso than Elan.
I think Roy's argument for getting him released was something along the lines of "no physical jail cell can hold him for long; better have the jail travelling with him: that way he can perhaps even do something useful".)

[Peelee]

(I'm honestly not sure why they were lugging him before his epiphany, though. Yes, he would occasionally kill stuff for them, but most of the time he was 80% just a pain in the behind, sometimes even moreso than Elan.
I think Roy's argument for getting him released was something along the lines of "no physical jail cell can hold him for long; better have the jail travelling with him: that way he can perhaps even do something useful".)

An anti-magic cell could have held him plenty long. The only reason he got out at all was specifically because he wasn't in an anti-magic cell, and the guards were not as thorough as they could have been. If either of those hadn't been the case, he wouldn't have been able to escape.

Other than that, though, I agree with you.

[Fyraltari]

I, for one, am rather skeptical of the notion that no prison could hold Belkar.

[Metastachydium]

An anti-magic cell could have held him plenty long. The only reason he got out at all was specifically because he wasn't in an anti-magic cell, and the guards were not as thorough as they could have been. If either of those hadn't been the case, he wouldn't have been able to escape.

I'm not saying Roy was definitely not wrong; all I'm saying is that this is the reasoning he gave for keeping him from doing time (I've found the strip in the meantime; he tells "the jail travels with him" thing to the deva).

[Peelee]

I'm not saying Roy was definitely not wrong; all I'm saying is that this is the reasoning he gave for keeping him from doing time (I've found the strip in the meantime; he tells "the jail travels with him" thing to the deva).

Oh, certainly. It's just that Roy's Portable Jail is rather notable for not really being punitive or rehabilitative in any way. He certainly had nothing to do with Belkar's vision quest, which actually spurred rehabilitation.

Roy kind of got lucky there, basically. His argument wasnt really great but he lucked out on that Belkar was apparently much less prone to committing capital crimes when he had the safety of the group to stay in.

[Metastachydium]

Oh, certainly. It's just that Roy's Portable Jail is rather notable for not really being punitive or rehabilitative in any way. He certainly had nothing to do with Belkar's vision quest, which actually spurred rehabilitation.

To be fair, he was dead at the time. (Of course, so was Shojo (if Belkar actually saw him), but Roy had some difficulty communicating with the living.)

Roy kind of got lucky there, basically. His argument wasnt really great but he lucked out on that Belkar was apparently much less prone to committing capital crimes when he had the safety of the group to stay in.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct.

[Bacon Elemental]

Also, uh, the Deva wasn't actually particularly happy with his reasoning, especially since Roy is arguing basically "Well, my self-serving way turned out way better in the end because of some pretty extreme circumstances I couldn't have known about when I made the choice to blackmail the local Good authority into letting him go, so it's justified post hoc", but Roy made the argument very well, and it mostly convinced her enough to go "Well, he's clearly at least thought about what he's doing and the evidence supports that it's working" and move on to the summary

[Hurkyl]

Roy is very good at rationalizing. He can reason things ahead of time when he wants, but I'm pretty sure on things like this he's just going with his gut, and doesn't think things through until after he's challenged on it. Fortunately he's wise enough so that his gut usually doesn't get him in trouble... but he's had his disastrous cases too.

[Metastachydium]

Roy is very good at rationalizing. He can reason things ahead of time when he wants, but I'm pretty sure on things like this he's just going with his gut, and doesn't think things through until after he's challenged on it. Fortunately he's wise enough so that his gut usually doesn't get him in trouble... but he's had his disastrous cases too.

Well, his absolute panic (as evidenced by his nervous attempt to flirt with the deva) does suggest he's making it up on the spot. That earlier he said he's going to have Belkar tried in Azure City after Xykon's defeated doesn't help his case either.

[Rogan]

casually destroying gates with little more thought than "It stops Xykon, and hey, there's another gate, right?" In addition to denying the criticism has any merit, it goes on as

I don't think I can agree with you here.
When Roy decided to destroy the gate, there were no significant defenses left, his team was missing both full casters, Belkar was at the brink of death. The chances to successfully defend the gate were close to 0.
Roy also could not expect any backup. At best, he could have gone with an alliance with Tarquin and Co, but they are capital letter E Evil as well. No good options left.

Destroying the gate was not plan A. It was plan Z, after the other plans (Coordinate with the defenders, summon planar allies, use the defenses in place,...) turned out to be impossible or impractical.

Granted, Roy didn't know about the danger of the gods destroying the world at this time, but knowing this would be another reason to stop X, not a reason to keep the gate intact. (I think..?)

[Metastachydium]

I don't think I can agree with you here.
When Roy decided to destroy the gate, there were no significant defenses left, his team was missing both full casters, Belkar was at the brink of death. The chances to successfully defend the gate were close to 0.
Roy also could not expect any backup. At best, he could have gone with an alliance with Tarquin and Co, but they are capital letter E Evil as well. No good options left.

Destroying the gate was not plan A. It was plan Z, after the other plans (Coordinate with the defenders, summon planar allies, use the defenses in place,...) turned out to be impossible or impractical.

Granted, Roy didn't know about the danger of the gods destroying the world at this time, but knowing this would be another reason to stop X, not a reason to keep the gate intact. (I think..?)

Also, like I said, if Team Evil captures a defenseless Gate, the Godsmoot vote was most likely to happen anyway.

[Psyren]

Again, repurcussions such as Azure City exerting it's Lawful authority on a crime commited within its jurisdiction.

Which both Roy and the Deva agreed would not have worked, so what's the issue?

If you want to argue that Roy did this because, in Roy's estimation, it was the best course of action to help ensure the satefy of the world, then I would again welcome you to the idea that that is exactly the same case for Serini. What she is doing is, in her estimation, the best course of action to help ensure the safety of the world.

Two people can believe they are in the right on two separate issues without actually both being right. There is no deva suggesting she had no other option.

And indeed, we know she had another option - answering the phone.