OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[elros]

I don't think I can agree with you here.
When Roy decided to destroy the gate, there were no significant defenses left, his team was missing both full casters, Belkar was at the brink of death. The chances to successfully defend the gate were close to 0.
Roy also could not expect any backup. At best, he could have gone with an alliance with Tarquin and Co, but they are capital letter E Evil as well. No good options left.

Destroying the gate was not plan A. It was plan Z, after the other plans (Coordinate with the defenders, summon planar allies, use the defenses in place,...) turned out to be impossible or impractical.

Granted, Roy didn't know about the danger of the gods destroying the world at this time, but knowing this would be another reason to stop X, not a reason to keep the gate intact. (I think..?)

I disagree that an alliance with Tarquinius would have resulted in a worse outcome than destroying the gate. Tarquin would never allow another villain to upstage him, so he would do everything to stop Team Evil, including the other members of his original team. The OOTS had access to XykonÂ’s spell list, and with TarquinÂ’s skills as a general they would have had a good chance to stop him.
After that, Tarquin would have likely destroyed the gate, but with Xykon defeated the final gate would not be threatened, and there would be no need for the gods to destroy the world.

[Rogan]

I disagree that an alliance with Tarquinius would have resulted in a worse outcome than destroying the gate. Tarquin would never allow another villain to upstage him, so he would do everything to stop Team Evil, including the other members of his original team. The OOTS had access to XykonÂ’s spell list, and with TarquinÂ’s skills as a general they would have had a good chance to stop him.
After that, Tarquin would have likely destroyed the gate, but with Xykon defeated the final gate would not be threatened, and there would be no need for the gods to destroy the world.

I'm not sure if Tarquin would have been strong enough to stop X and willing to work with the order. I'm also not sure if he would destroy the gate instead of trying to gain some advantage from possession of a gate.
But most important, I don't think it would be in character for Roy to take this much of a risk while in such a weak position himself.

But I don't think there is much evidence either way, so I have to agree the outcome you described could be possible.

[Peelee]

Which both Roy and the Deva agreed would not have worked, so what's the issue?

Would you mind providing the source where the deva agreed to it would not have worked? Because my understanding is that Roy used the Gish gallop method there and happened to luck into the fact that it wasn't worth the Deva refuting it. But by all means, I'm more than willing to be shown the comic where the Deva says "that is an excellent point, and I feel comfortable with your decision." If such a comic exists, of course.

And indeed, we know she had another option - answering the phone.

And Roy had an option to listen to the Oracle trying to help him. That is, yet again, my point. We have characters who make potentially world-altering poor decisions because they think they have it figured out enough and rebuff outside help that would absolutely let them know that they don't have it figured out enough. This is one of many examples of Serini doing exactly what the Order themselves did, which, yet again, is my entire point. There are very few meaningful differences between how Serini is acting and how the Order has acted, and yet people are cheering for Serini to be put into her place. That has very ugly implications that I am not at all comfortable with, and I will continue to oppose any such claims.

[Liquor Box]

How precisely do you think she’s flawed then? Not being able to know about the Godsmoot? Or something else?

Me?

I think her decision was flawed even on the basis of the information she has available. I think looking at what she knows there are better decisions she could have made to prevent the release of the Snarl.

But I don't think that her recent actions are moronic or idiotic. There is a thread of logic tying it all together, and the fact that some not-stupid people here agree with her suggests that she is not acting moronically.

On the other hand, I do think her decision to write down the world's most important secret in her diary and carrying it round in her back pocket may qualify as stupid. Being able to remember the way to places like the north pole and Azure City strkes me as the sort of thing a reasonably intelligent person would be able to do.

casually destroying gates with little more thought than "It stops Xykon, and hey, there's another gate, right?" In addition to denying the criticism has any merit, it goes on as

This may be a reasonable description of Elan destroying gate one. But the Order has literally already been put on trial for that in comic.

But I don't it is an accurate description of Roy destroying Girard's gate. We in 896 that Roy gives his decision a lot of though, and discusses it with those present, very clearly making the point that this gate is not the last. We know that his views are consistent with Shojo's (Roys source of information on the gates) that destroying a gate that is not the last is better than it falling into the wrong hands. And we hear the voice of the author telling the readers, through V, that Roy is making the right decision based on the information he has available.

How does Serini compare with these two in terms of how well thought through her actions are? - somewhere in between I'd say.

I, for one, am rather skeptical of the notion that no prison could hold Belkar.

Lots of real world very high security prisons have had people escape, so the vast majority (if not all) of prison's cannot be guaranteed to hold real world people. With Belkar probably being more talented than most real world people, I don't think it is that much of a stretch to think he would stand a good chance of escaping from most OotSworld prisons.

[danielxcutter]

Me?

I think her decision was flawed even on the basis of the information she has available. I think looking at what she knows there are better decisions she could have made to prevent the release of the Snarl.

But I don't think that her recent actions are moronic or idiotic. There is a thread of logic tying it all together, and the fact that some not-stupid people here agree with her suggests that she is not acting moronically.

On the other hand, I do think her decision to write down the world's most important secret in her diary and carrying it round in her back pocket may qualify as stupid. Being able to remember the way to places like the north pole and Azure City strkes me as the sort of thing a reasonably intelligent person would be able to do.

I was asking Peelee. He said he doesn’t think she’s flawless but hasn’t elaborated on that yet. Which seems to be a trend, I think.

[Peelee]

I was asking Peelee. He said he doesn’t think she’s flawless but hasn’t elaborated on that yet. Which seems to be a trend, I think.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not been shy about pointing out her flaws. My posts are riddled with calling out her flaws.

[danielxcutter]

Sorry, if you did I must have missed that. Discussion’s been going a mile a minute and it’s getting a bit hard to track besides broad streaks.

[Ruck]

Honestly i think a big part of the issue here is the concept of subconscious biases. I've noted that from my perspective Serreni seems to have "don't allow the world to be destroyed" as one of hers. But that doesn't have to be the only major starting point. "Don't allow a colossal evil to rule the world and make everyone suffer" is an equally valid bias, (and there are others). Give two individuals with those specific biases the same information and they will come to different conclusions and decisions based on that information. Both of those people will have, (or can have), valid decision trees that make sense and are completely reasonable, but lead to completely different outcomes and actions. Be glad she doesn't have the latter actually, she'd probably have allready blown the gate to make the gods remake the world if she did.

Yeah, this is kind of what I was trying to say here, albeit that I don't even think it's necessarily subconscious:

In drama, different people have different moralities, and that leads them to different decisions, and those moralities and decisions conflict and escalate until they reach a conclusion. Right now, the Order's moral priority is "stop Xykon and enlist Redcloak to seal the Gates"; Serini's is "protect this Gate at all costs." They are coming into conflict. That's good drama to me.

Also, uh, the Deva wasn't actually particularly happy with his reasoning, especially since Roy is arguing basically "Well, my self-serving way turned out way better in the end because of some pretty extreme circumstances I couldn't have known about when I made the choice to blackmail the local Good authority into letting him go, so it's justified post hoc", but Roy made the argument very well, and it mostly convinced her enough to go "Well, he's clearly at least thought about what he's doing and the evidence supports that it's working" and move on to the summary

Roy is very good at rationalizing. He can reason things ahead of time when he wants, but I'm pretty sure on things like this he's just going with his gut, and doesn't think things through until after he's challenged on it. Fortunately he's wise enough so that his gut usually doesn't get him in trouble... but he's had his disastrous cases too.

Mm-hmm.

And Roy had an option to listen to the Oracle trying to help him. That is, yet again, my point. We have characters who make potentially world-altering poor decisions because they think they have it figured out enough and rebuff outside help that would absolutely let them know that they don't have it figured out enough. This is one of many examples of Serini doing exactly what the Order themselves did, which, yet again, is my entire point. There are very few meaningful differences between how Serini is acting and how the Order has acted, and yet people are cheering for Serini to be put into her place. That has very ugly implications that I am not at all comfortable with, and I will continue to oppose any such claims.

Part of my frustration is that I thought three months of this debate would lead closer to common ground; instead, I've become more convinced that the rationalization here is "It's okay when the Order does it because they're the Order, and Serini is not the Order."

[Larsaan]

And Roy had an option to listen to the Oracle trying to help him.

Roy didn't listen to the Oracle because he had a proven history of being as unhelpful as possible towards the Order. Serini has no such history with the Order to judge them on, at least as far as has been shown on-page.

And you know, at least he listened to the words the Oracle was saying. Because you can accuse the Order of a lot of things, but one thing they don't do is blow off people who are trying to give them information. Except maybe Roy with that other deva that one time, but at least in that case he was pressed for time.

[Peelee]

Roy didn't listen to the Oracle because he had a proven history of being as unhelpful as possible towards the Order. Serini has no such history with the Order to judge them on, at least as far as has been shown on-page.

Serini didn't listen to the Order because they had a proven history of blowing up Gates. Alternatively, Serini didn't listen to V because V had a proven history of single-handedly decimating the entire defense system of a Gate.

I stand by my point.

[Liquor Box]

Again, repurcussions such as Azure City exerting it's Lawful authority on a crime commited within its jurisdiction. Roy worked to completely circumvent that and get Belkar off without any punishment, to the best of his ability. He actively protected Belkar from the consequences of his actions.

Did Roy do anything more than argue in Belkar's defence at this trial, and offer to supervise him if he is conditionally released? So effectively acting as his defence attorney and a parole officer? Do you think people should not take up the role of putting the case of an accused or monitoring them after they are released?

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

But am I right that you think the flaw in Serini's logic arises solely because she has imperfect information? If so, that is our point of difference - I think her logic is flawed on the basis of the information she has.

[Larsaan]

Serini didn't listen to the Order because they had a proven history of blowing up Gates. Alternatively, Serini didn't listen to V because V had a proven history of single-handedly decimating the entire defense system of a Gate.

I stand by my point.

Your point is moot because we don't know that she knows that.

[Liquor Box]

Your point is moot because we don't know that she knows that.

I don't think we can assume she doesn't know things that she reasonably might though.

However, the fact the suggests that she mainly knows the order through their attempts to call her may indicate that she doesn't know a whole lot about them.

[Peelee]

Did Roy do anything more than argue in Belkar's defence at this trial, and offer to supervise him if he is conditionally released?

Yes.

But am I right that you think the flaw in Serini's logic arises solely because she has imperfect information? If so, that is our point of difference - I think her logic is flawed on the basis of the information she has.

Yes, and I have no problem with your take.

Your point is moot because we don't know that she knows that.

She seems to know the exact circumstances of the destruction of Soon's Gate, so there is reason to believe that she likewise knows the exact circumstances of the destruction of Girard's Gate, at the very least, if not Dorukan's and Lirian's as well.

Which is to say, I disagree.

[Larsaan]

She seems to know the exact circumstances of the destruction of Soon's Gate, so there is reason to believe that she likewise knows the exact circumstances of the destruction of Girard's Gate, at the very least, if not Dorukan's and Lirian's as well.

Which is to say, I disagree.

And I think you're jumping to conclusions. She seems to have some knowledge about what went down in Azure City, yes, but it is up in the air how much she knows about how the rest of the Gates fell. Especially since we already know her intel on the Order is either faulty or incomplete.

[Liquor Box]

Yes.

What do you think Roy did there which went beyond what a defence lawyer would ordinarily do?

Yes, and I have no problem with your take.

Great, then contrary to what Ruck expressed disappointment about above, it seems that some of us have identified common ground.

[Peelee]

What do you think Roy did there which went beyond what a defence lawyer would ordinarily do?

Defense lawyers have a duty to give their client the best possible defense, regardless of guilt. Roy is not a defense lawyer and has no such obligation. If I pull someone over and arrest them on reasonable suspicious of a misdemeanor, I have not done anything beyond what a police officer would ordinarily do, but I'm not a police officer so it's pretty dang different. Roy proclaimed himself as acting as a Belkar's "jailer" to the deva. The scope of Roy keeping Belkar's evil down does not extend to letting him get off scot free from murdering someone, and any aims that Roy was simply a zealous litigator for his client are a mere fig leaf to try to obscure Roy's own claims.

But, again, we let him do it without much naysaying because he earnestly believed it was important to the overall safety and security of the world. Which is the important part.

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty damn sure I’ve consistently made the point that I disagree with the “Serini is working perfectly on imperfect logic” angle, that her only real shortcoming here is something entirely beyond her power. When I say people seem to think Serini is flawless this is what I mean, this is what I’ve always meant, and I’ve been saying this from day 1, so could you please stop misrepresenting me?

I’m sorry, I just don’t get the viewpoint that the Order is grossly flawed but Serini can’t be.

[Rogan]

Serini didn't listen to the Order because they had a proven history of blowing up Gates. Alternatively, Serini didn't listen to V because V had a proven history of single-handedly decimating the entire defense system of a Gate.

I stand by my point.

The first argument seems perfectly valid to me.
The argument about V on the other hand feels a bit lacking. Vs action is hardly common knowledge and I think, if Serini would know this, she would have mentioned it. But we know that Serini is capable of gathering rare information about the destruction of the gates (or at least, Soons gate), so it's certainly not impossible that she knows about the familycide as well.

I Agree with the general observation that the order gets much more leeway in their judgment than Serini receives. It's very much possible that this happens because the order are the main characters. It would be interesting to see the reactions if Serini had the same amount of screen time than the order. Or at least an entire book dedicated to the Scribblers.

For the record, my own opinion is, Serini is unsympathetic and she is making mistakes. But this doesn't make her a moron or evil. It makes her a flawed person. And nobody is perfect, so that's a good thing from a story telling perspective.

[Peelee]

I’m pretty damn sure I’ve consistently made the point that I disagree with the “Serini is working perfectly on imperfect logic” angle, that her only real shortcoming here is something entirely beyond her power. When I say people seem to think Serini is flawless this is what I mean, this is what I’ve always meant, and I’ve been saying this from day 1, so could you please stop misrepresenting me?

I’m sorry, I just don’t get the viewpoint that the Order is grossly flawed but Serini can’t be.

If you think that people saying "I am not saying Serini cannot be grossly flawed" is misrepresenting you, then I would imagine that saying things like "just don’t get the viewpoint that the Order is grossly flawed but Serini can’t be" is counterproductive to your goals.

For the record, my own opinion is, Serini is unsympathetic and she is making mistakes. But this doesn't make her a moron or evil. It makes her a flawed person. And nobody is perfect, so that's a good thing from a story telling perspective.

I wholly agree with this.

[danielxcutter]

Also I was under the impression that calling one thing that someone does stupid, doesn’t inherently imply that you think they’re a moron? It feels like criticisms or disagreement with Serini’s current position is being attacked as if it was insulting the entire work.

Edit: also goddamnit Peelee, cut it out with the passive-aggressive vitriol.

[Peelee]

Also I was under the impression that calling one thing that someone does stupid, doesn’t inherently imply that you think they’re a moron? It feels like criticisms or disagreement with Serini’s current position is being attacked as if it was insulting the entire work.

Edit: also goddamnit Peelee, cut it out with the passive-aggressive vitriol.

Dude, this isn't passive aggressive vitriol. This is you saying "people who claim I say X are misrepresenting me" and then immediately saying X. If you don't like being called out on that, then it is entirely in your power to stop it.

[Rogan]

Also I was under the impression that calling one thing that someone does stupid, doesn’t inherently imply that you think they’re a moron? It feels like criticisms or disagreement with Serini’s current position is being attacked as if it was insulting the entire work.

Edit: also goddamnit Peelee, cut it out with the passive-aggressive vitriol.

There is a thread called "Serini is a moron" so there certainly are people who accuse her of being a moron.
I also remember seeing multiple people saying Serini is evil. I think there are some posts in this direction in the thread about Sunny.

I'm afraid that the arguments are getting a bit heated from time to time, and you are getting into the crossfire.

Maybe you could summarize your position on Serini in a few sentences? This would help everyone involved to avoid mixing your position up with the opinions of other people (who might have a similar position in many regards, but a different one in critical sections).

[Liquor Box]

Defense lawyers have a duty to give their client the best possible defense, regardless of guilt. Roy is not a defense lawyer and has no such obligation. If I pull someone over and arrest them on reasonable suspicious of a misdemeanor, I have not done anything beyond what a police officer would ordinarily do, but I'm not a police officer so it's pretty dang different. Roy proclaimed himself as acting as a Belkar's "jailer" to the deva. The scope of Roy keeping Belkar's evil down does not extend to letting him get off scot free from murdering someone, and any aims that Roy was simply a zealous litigator for his client are a mere fig leaf to try to obscure Roy's own claims.

But, again, we let him do it without much naysaying because he earnestly believed it was important to the overall safety and security of the world. Which is the important part.

OK, so he acted as a defence lawyer would, despite not having any official duty to do so?

You also say that he "let him get off scot free for murdering someone" which seems to be the thrust of your issue with him. Is it advocating on behalf of Belkar that you equate to letting him off scot free? If so,I have to disagree, I think it was Hinjo who made the decision on Belkar's punishment. All Roy did was advocate on Belkar's behalf in the way a defence lawyer would (as you say, despite not being a defence lawyer).

I don't know if there was any naysaying at the time, but if there was not I suggest it was because Roy only spoke on behalf of Belkar. You are speaking as if he staged an escape.

[Rogan]

OK, so he acted as a defence lawyer would, despite not having any official duty to do so?

You also say that he "let him get off scot free for murdering someone" which seems to be the thrust of your issue with him. Is it advocating on behalf of Belkar that you equate to letting him off scot free? If so,I have to disagree, I think it was Hinjo who made the decision on Belkar's punishment. All Roy did was advocate on Belkar's behalf in the way a defence lawyer would (as you say, despite not being a defence lawyer).

I don't know if there was any naysaying at the time, but if there was not I suggest it was because Roy only spoke on behalf of Belkar. You are speaking as if he staged an escape.

Roy's "OH crap" reaction to Hinjos sentence of 6 years implies that Roy was expecting Belkar would get out of jail for free. Hinjo calls Roy's behavior out as trying to cheat the system in front of the guy tasked with keeping the system.

So I agree with Peelee here. Roy tried to cheat the system to handle Belkar a get out of jail for free card.

I guess you can argue that cheating the system is part of a defense lawyers job description, but that's not a path I would like to follow.

[danielxcutter]

Okay.

Serini got maimed by Xykon and almost died, so I'm not going to criticize her for being traumatized and afraid of him. And she presumably doesn't have any real way of knowing about the Godsmoot. I'm not ruling out the possibility of the IFCC tampering with her sources of information gathering either; I think there's at least a few cases of Contact Other Plane spells being hijacked in official material for starters.

But the assumption that Serini's only shortcoming is not knowing about the divine angle... I just can't agree with that at all. She wasn't talking to the paladins, she was talking at them. (Lien outright said they can't blow up this Gate and Serini didn't even notice - or care.)

And pointing out that the Order's done things wrong... what? Like, some of those don't even apply now due to character growth, and asserting that the Order is flawed... just means that the Order is flawed, if that. That doesn't absolve Serini of blame. And the Order has been hit over the head repeatedly with said flaws and have been trying to overcome them ever since.

Serini assuming that Xykon taking control over the Snarl will only last a few years is also a faulty position - the Snarl isn't just another generic doomsday device. It's entirely capable of butchering gods. Kicking the can down the road only really works if you have a plan to pick said can up later on, and doesn't make the can grow tenfold with every inch.

That's why I don't think Serini's position is entirely based on logic and philosophy - fear, trauma, stubbornness, some other emotion or sentiment, or a mixture of those thrown into the mix as well, sure, but it really just sounds like some people think that Serini is entirely right to think what she does with what she knows and her only shortcoming is something she had no actual responsibility for.

Edit:

Roy's "OH crap" reaction to Hinjos sentence of 6 years implies that Roy was expecting Belkar would get out of jail for free. Hinjo calls Roy's behavior out as trying to cheat the system in front of the guy tasked with keeping the system.

So I agree with Peelee here. Roy tried to cheat the system to handle Belkar a get out of jail for free card.

I guess you can argue that cheating the system is part of a defense lawyers job description, but that's not a path I would like to follow.

I think that part of this was making sure Belkar would still be available to aid in the fight against Xykon?

[Rogan]

Okay.

<Snip>

Edit:



I think that part of this was making sure Belkar would still be available to aid in the fight against Xykon?

Thanks for the reply. I think I like the way you described Serini and your position and I'm looking forward to see Peelees reaction to this post.


Well, the deal Hinjo proposed would have allowed Belkar to participate in the battle of Azure city. If this battle had ended in favor of the defending side, there would have been a chance that Xykon was destroyed afterwards, so Belkar would not need to be free for another fight.
So urging Belkar to accept the deal instead of staying in jail was fine. Trying to get Belkar free completely on the other hand might have been a bit too much. Of course Roy might have been a bit pessimistic and assumed that Xykon would get away even if the assault failed. In this case, keeping Belkar free for the chase would be important.

Still, cheating the system (and the comic / Hinjo calls it this way) isn't something a LG character should do, so Roy could deserve some criticism but (as far as I know) didn't get called out.

[Liquor Box]

Roy's "OH crap" reaction to Hinjos sentence of 6 years implies that Roy was expecting Belkar would get out of jail for free. Hinjo calls Roy's behavior out as trying to cheat the system in front of the guy tasked with keeping the system.

So I agree with Peelee here. Roy tried to cheat the system to handle Belkar a get out of jail for free card.

I guess you can argue that cheating the system is part of a defense lawyers job description, but that's not a path I would like to follow.

Well the words Hinjo used was "game the system". And what Roy actually did was try to persuade Hinjo that Belkar should get a deduction from his sentence that exceeded the amount of the sentence itself (and he did that quite openly). In that context "gaming the system" simply means min-maxing within the system, whereas "cheating the system" would be looking for ways outside the rules of the system. Taking advantage of the rules of the system to get the best outcome for your client is something that defence lawyers have a duty to do.

It was a bit niaive for Roy to smugly set out how clever he had been in negotiating a non-sentence for Belkar in front of Hinjo. So if Peelee was being critical of Roy for doing something a bit stupid in that strip instead of morally wrong, I think he'd have a much stronger case, and still one he could compare to Serini's actions.

[danielxcutter]

Well, Roy was quite a bit salty at Shojo, Hinjo and the Guard in general; that's why he asked Hinjo to take Elan for a tour around the city IIRC.

[Rogan]

Well the words Hinjo used was "game the system". And what Roy actually did was try to persuade Hinjo that Belkar should get a deduction from his sentence that exceeded the amount of the sentence itself (and he did that quite openly). In that context "gaming the system" simply means min-maxing within the system, whereas "cheating the system" would be looking for ways outside the rules of the system. Taking advantage of the rules of the system to get the best outcome for your client is something that defence lawyers have a duty to do.

It was a bit niaive for Roy to smugly set out how clever he had been in negotiating a non-sentence for Belkar in front of Hinjo. So if Peelee was being critical of Roy for doing something a bit stupid in that strip instead of morally wrong, I think he'd have a much stronger case, and still one he could compare to Serini's actions.

He said "you probably shouldn't have discussed how you are going to beat the system in front of the guy charged with upholding the system".

So it wasn't cheat. But beat the system doesn't sound very lawful to me either. If you move inside if the boundaries of the system, you would not need to beat it. What Roy tried to do was exploiting a legal loophole, something that's clearly contrary to the spirit of the law while following the letter. This might be fine for LE, but we are talking about LG here.

Roy also was not that open to Hinjo. He asked him to reduce the charges on a somewhat valid case. And he probably knew about the plan to offer a 5 year reduction. But he explained how this would lead to a non-sentence to Belkar, Hinjo simply was close enough to listen. But since the order has a habit of ignoring NPCs, that's not being open to Hinjo. The quote above shows that Hinjo was not informed of the plan beforehand.