OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

I think something the anti-Serini camp seldom acknowledges is that destroying previous gates just because there were still others standing is seen by Serini, rightfully, as a pretty big deal in itself. I mean, the destruction of Girard's Gate directly led to the Godsmoot, where the world came super close to being destroyed (and technically it could still produce a Yes vote). It was reckless. Assurances about how blowing up the last gate is no longer an option may fall flat coming from people who Serini considers quite irresponsible.

[Metastachydium]

I think something the anti-Serini camp seldom acknowledges is that destroying previous gates just because there were still others standing is seen by Serini, rightfully, as a pretty big deal in itself. I mean, the destruction of Girard's Gate directly led to the Godsmoot, where the world came super close to being destroyed (and technically it could still produce a Yes vote).

Its getting captured by Team Evil with the defenses all down would have likely yielded much the same result. (Also, since when is knowing about the Godsmoot a valid criterion?)

[hroþila]

Its getting captured by Team Evil with the defenses all down would have likely yielded much the same result. (Also, since when is knowing about the Godsmoot a valid criterion?)

She doesn't need to know about the Godsmoot as such, she only needs to know that destroying any gate represents an unacceptable increase to the risk of armageddon, which the Godsmoot then demonstrated empirically.

[Hurkyl]

How long did Xykon have control of Dorukan's Dungeon without the world getting blown up?

[Metastachydium]

She doesn't need to know about the Godsmoot as such, she only needs to know that destroying any gate represents an unacceptable increase to the risk of armageddon, which the Godsmoot then demonstrated empirically.

Well, we have empirical evidence for "many gods would rather let the world burn than let Big Purple win", so that cuts both ways.

How long did Xykon have control of Dorukan's Dungeon without the world getting blown up?

He didn't have access to the Gate proper. Girard's was different: there were no defenses left.

[Peelee]

He didn't have access to the Gate proper. Girard's was different: there were no defenses left.

The ritual still takes weeks to perform. Having full access to a completely undefended Gate does not necessarily warrant imminent world destruction.

[Metastachydium]

The ritual still takes weeks to perform. Having full access to a completely undefended Gate does not necessarily warrant imminent world destruction.

For destroying the world, three Godsmoots have to be called at once and that takes some time. And "the world ends this week" and "the world ends this month" are not that different from each other even if we discount that.

[ziproot]

My personal take is this:

Last time I was here, I said Serini was most likely chaotic neutral, with chaotic good and true neutral not being too far fetched. I also said that Serini was almost certainly not evil or lawful good. I still stand by this. I also argued that Serini was a coward, which I now think is going too far. A better explanation would be that Serini is simply being super cautious, which isn't too unreasonable if messing up means every soul in existence gets devoured by a god-killing eldritch knot. Besides this, I don't remember ever saying anything about Serini being stupid, and I currently think her intelligence is average. One characteristic of intelligence is willingness to absorb new information, which is something Serini does not seem to want to do. If this was "adventuring party #85843" then I would understand Serini's frustration, but that isn't what this appears to be. If nobody called me on the phone, and then suddenly I get 10 phone calls from the same number, I would probably try calling them back.

Of course, it isn't just this. The Order of the Stick, in Serini's mind, destroyed three gates. One was thanks to Elan, though everyone else was mad at Elan for this until they were forced to defend themselves in a sham trial, when they pointed out the existence of the self-destruct button in the first place as the reason why it was activated. One was thanks to a majority of the Order of the Stick (but not everyone) deciding to blow up the gate. One was thanks to O-Chul not knowing about the ghost martyrs, which gave Miko the inspiration to actually destroy Soon's Gate. O-Chul did a terrible job defending himself, but Charisma is his dump stat anyways. Regardless, I could still see blaming the Order of the Stick as a whole for the destruction of three gates. For that, there are probably two reasons for this, if you knew nothing else:

1. Stupidity
2. They have information you don't

Due to reason #2, I would still at least try picking up the phone. If it turns out it really is #1, then I would tell them to go away. In this case, it's a mixture of both #1 and #2. The first two gates were destroyed due to reason #1 (though one was due to Team Evil stupidity and not Order of the Stick stupidity). The second two were destroyed due to reason #2: the information they had was "Xykon getting control of gates 1-4 is worse than gates 1-4 being destroyed, and vice versa for gate 5". For gates 1-4, there's always another gate. For gate 5, destroying it means the gods have less than an hour to unmake the world instead of the few weeks the ritual takes, increasing the chance that the Snarl gets to people first and the souls get destroyed. Regardless, Serini didn't pick up the phone at all, and now she's frustrated when they showed up at a place they thought was abandoned and tried to help as best as they could. This isn't a double standard. Ignoring someone trying to help is not doing the best you can.

As for being fed misinformation, one striking thing to me is Serini thinking the Order+Paladins destroyed four gates, which is just wrong no matter how you put it. This to me signals that something isn't quite right with regards to how Serini gets her information.

And as for the diary, I think that Serini should have kept the gate coordinates in a separate document that was not her personal diary. That way, she could have still kept her diary, but the gate coordinates could have been safe in her hideout place, which nobody appears to have gotten to without her permission. Taking the coordinates with her probably wasn't the worst idea, however. I'm more confused as to why it was her diary she put the coordinates in.

The one uncharitable thing about Serini I think I said here was her refusal to accept information. As far as I remember, every time the Order received a sending, they responded (with the possible exception of Nale's threat where he asked them to go to Cliffport and they did). If this is not the case, feel free to show me when they ignored a sending.

Also, I said a lot here, meaning I probably made some sort of logical/factual error, especially with regards to the paragraph about the reasoning behind destroying the gate, so feel free to point that out as well.

[Hurkyl]

The one uncharitable thing about Serini I think I said here was her refusal to accept information.

Do we know she was being offered information? The flashback in #1244 is only partial, but doesn't contain such an offer. I don't recall any other examples.

A lot of the criticism people were throwing at Serini in this vein wasn't even that she was being offered information: it was that she should make contact just in case there was something useful to learn.

(also, the Paladins never got around to suggesting they had detailed intelligence on his capabilities during their conversation with Serini)

[Peelee]

For destroying the world, three Godsmoots have to be called at once and that takes some time. And "the world ends this week" and "the world ends this month" are not that different from each other even if we discount that.

How much time elapsed between the Order destroying Girard's Gate and the Godsmoot?

Also, there's no reason to think that each pantheon has its own separate godsmoots; it seems like all three participate in the same one, and the voting system is simply "eahc pantheon votes amongst itself, and then that vote counts for one of the three votes among all gods". Could be wrong, but that was always my read on it.

[Metastachydium]

How much time elapsed between the Order destroying Girard's Gate and the Godsmoot?

No idea.

Edit: Julio implies it's normally about ten days to the Pole or twelve if they have to go around the Elven Lands and they lost a day at Tinkertown. I'd call it a week.

Also, there's no reason to think that each pantheon has its own separate godsmoots; it seems like all three participate in the same one, and the voting system is simply "eahc pantheon votes amongst itself, and then that vote counts for one of the three votes among all gods". Could be wrong, but that was always my read on it.

That's what I meant by three godsmoots held at once (i.e. simultaneously).

[ziproot]

Do we know she was being offered information? The flashback in #1244 is only partial, but doesn't contain such an offer. I don't recall any other examples.

A lot of the criticism people were throwing at Serini in this vein wasn't even that she was being offered information: it was that she should make contact just in case there was something useful to learn.

(also, the Paladins never got around to suggesting they had detailed intelligence on his capabilities during their conversation with Serini)

Oh right, they were offering status updates. That can get annoying after a while. Not to mention that Girard's booby trap also alerted Serini that "Soon broke his oath" or something like that, which, being a prerecorded message from Girard, is probably not an objective analysis of the situation. And it looks like they haven't seemed to actually offer information (though Roy and Durkon, the most knowlegable characters on the current situation, being knocked out in the first round, probably didn't help).

[Peelee]

No idea.

My read was nearly instantaneously, with only a small amount of time allowed for clerics to travel. The vampire came into the world with knowledge it would be called and where, and his first mission was to find some way to travel there. The Order was immediately on its way to the north, and while we lack a speed for the airship, it can't have been too long.

[Metastachydium]

My read was nearly instantaneously, with only a small amount of time allowed for clerics to travel. The vampire came into the world with knowledge it would be called and where, and his first mission was to find some way to travel there. The Order was immediately on its way to the north, and while we lack a speed for the airship, it can't have been too long.

Edit: Julio implies it's normally about ten days to the Pole or twelve if they have to go around the Elven Lands and they lost a day at Tinkertown. I'd call it a week.

…is what I realized after I typed the other post.

[Peelee]

…is what I realized after I typed the other post.

Oh neat! Thanks!

[Vikenlugaid]

I for one have been very careful to not characterise her recent decisions as dumb or moronic, only flawed. (I think the stuff with the diary was worse)

I am happy to agree that they are neither completely stupid, nor the smartest thing to do? Are we perhaps on the same page then?

What page? Serini's decision are smart, but obviously there is always a smarter thing to do, and many more stupider.
The thing is, she can do smarter? Same for everyone, even de gods here (specially the gods), but she is doing pretty smart and definetly above average.

And I will repeat this, why the 3 Infernals doesn't clearly want Serini to win over the Order? I think that means her actions are safer for the world than the Order's.

[ziproot]

And I will repeat this, why the 3 Infernals doesn't clearly want Serini to win over the Order? I think that means her actions are safer for the world than the Order's.

At the moment, V is trapped by a lurker, so taking over their soul would be a waste. The one time it might have done something was the Prismatic Spray, but the Infernals like conflict and want more souls to go to hell. Taking V out would lead to the Order getting mind wiped and then the world ending, which prevents any more people from having their alignments shift to Evil, prevents any more conflict from occurring (like, say, a battle with Xykon), and means that whatever their plan is with Sabine won't work out as the world will end first. It might even lead to the end of their existence as well, as it looks like only actual deities survive the grace period. Though I would like to point out that until the date of Belkar's predicted death, the snarl cannot escape, as that would lead to Belkar dying earlier.

[Emanick]

And I will repeat this, why the 3 Infernals doesn't clearly want Serini to win over the Order? I think that means her actions are safer for the world than the Order's.

By that logic, the actions of the vampires under Hel’s command were also safer for the world than the Order’s, since the fiends didn’t interfere during the Order’s fight with them, either. And that doesn’t make any sense, since… well, the vampires were literally trying to destroy the world.

I don’t think we can assume too much from the IFCC’s lack of interference.

The vampire came into the world with knowledge it would be called and where, and his first mission was to find some way to travel there.

I don’t think that’s possible. The vampire spirit came into the world before the Gate was destroyed, so it can’t plausibly have known about the Godsmoot when it was created. I assume it learned its mission when it Communed with Hel, probably that evening. (Hel *could* probably have created it with the knowledge that it should Commune with her for instructions ASAP - she would have known from the start that it could be of immense use to her.)

[Metastachydium]

By that logic, the actions of the vampires under Hel’s command were also safer for the world than the Order’s, since the fiends didn’t interfere during the Order’s fight with them, either. And that doesn’t make any sense, since… well, the vampires were literally trying to destroy the world.

Heck, the IFCC was actively rooting for Team Hel.

[Carl]

To all the claims that a paladin wouldn't destroy the gates:

She's the ultimate example that a Paladin is not perfect, they can go off the rails. We know she's not unique either, even if she's an especially spectacular example. Serreni has no way to know for sure they won't go off the rails when pushed right to the wall. People can say X all they want. But you rarely know what someone will do under extreme stress until it actually happens, (a point that probably counts against O-Chul specifically i her mind). Not to mention the order thats coming aren't necessarily of the same alignment.

For that matter during the Godsmoot, Roy, a Lawful Good character acknowledged that there's a reasonable argument to be made. It's not good enough in is mind at the current moment. But it's good enough he feels it has merit under the right circumstances. Also don';t forget some gods are Lawful good, they've destroyed countless worlds in the past. Being Lawful Good isn't an impediment to getting the world unmade. Just under what circumstances it's acceptable.

[Larsaan]

Could you tell me what kind of people doesn't decide who is on their side?
Don't you do it?

I mean... no? Unless you're talking about a game of football or something, but life is more complicated than that. It's why it's so important to listen to what people have to say. Even people who have seemingly conflicting goals can turn out to be allies as circumstances change or information is uncovered.

Actually, maybe that's why Serini gets under my skin in a way that few other characters in the entire comic has so far. I personally put a very high value on being willing to listen to others and giving them the benefit of the doubt, even when (or especially when) circumstances might suggest you should be hostile towards each other.

[Metastachydium]

To all the claims that a paladin wouldn't destroy the gates:

She's the ultimate example that a Paladin is not perfect, they can go off the rails. We know she's not unique either, even if she's an especially spectacular example. Serreni has no way to know for sure they won't go off the rails when pushed right to the wall. People can say X all they want. But you rarely know what someone will do under extreme stress until it actually happens, (a point that probably counts against O-Chul specifically i her mind). Not to mention the order thats coming aren't necessarily of the same alignment.

For that matter during the Godsmoot, Roy, a Lawful Good character acknowledged that there's a reasonable argument to be made. It's not good enough in is mind at the current moment. But it's good enough he feels it has merit under the right circumstances. Also don';t forget some gods are Lawful good, they've destroyed countless worlds in the past. Being Lawful Good isn't an impediment to getting the world unmade. Just under what circumstances it's acceptable.

No, getting every single soul unmade forever just to spite some villain is not a Good act under any circumstance. Neither is it something a Good god ever voted to enable, however jaded they might be. (Not that Thor doesn't imply the main issue is the Evil and Neutral ones outnumbering the Good ones, but I digress.)
The gods are not a good example anyway. Destroying worlds is something they do to survive. They don't do it to spite the Snarl.

As for Miko, she's an extremely bad example. She was always off the rails. It's just that she was kept contained for quite a long time. Also, when she destroyed Soon's Gate, she was neither Good, nor a paladin anymore and definitely wasn't fulfilling an oath or duty. She was merely trying to validate herself. (Not that Soon's Gate was the last Gate in existence.)

[Larsaan]

Not that I want to actually advocate in favour of blowing up the world, but I do want to point out that in a fantasy world like this, there are worse things than non-existence - and a powerful necromancer like Xykon is most certainly capable of inflicting them.

[Carl]

No, getting every single soul unmade forever just to spite some villain is not a Good act under any circumstance. Neither is it something a Good god ever voted to enable, however jaded they might be. (Not that Thor doesn't imply the main issue is the Evil and Neutral ones outnumbering the Good ones, but I digress.)
The gods are not a good example anyway. Destroying worlds is something they do to survive. They don't do it to spite the Snarl.

As for Miko, she's an extremely bad example. She was always off the rails. It's just that she was kept contained for quite a long time. Also, when she destroyed Soon's Gate, she was neither Good, nor a paladin anymore and definitely wasn't fulfilling an oath or duty. She was merely trying to validate herself. (Not that Soon's Gate was the last Gate in existence.)

Unmaking the last gate won't cause the snarl to devour the whole world instantly. It just puts the world on the clock, just like it was before they all got sealed. gewtting the world unmade by the gods to prevent a lich from ruling it can be justified. Do i belive it's a valid one? No. But people aren't perfect, not even paladins, (hence my example). Also the Giant has indicated some of the Paladins involved in the goblin massacres likely fell, and we know a prior commander of the sapphire guard did.

Also one of the oldest rules in the real world. You never know how someones going to act with their back to the wall until it actually happens.

@Larsan: Serreni, (to use a colloquialism), isn't getting paid to understand both sides. Her job is to make sure that come tomorrow the world spins on. Any attempt to learn more information is allways going to be viewed through that lens. Meaning she's only going to take the risks involved in learning more if:

A) she thinks there's reason to believe someone might actually know somthing

B) she actually believe's they will tell the truth, (not an issue with paladins generally to be fair), or she has a foolproof method to determine if they're lying.

Otherwise she's taking a risk that doesn't help her do her job. And that job is too important to screw up with unnecessary risks.


Wanting to understand both sides and given the benefit of the doubt in general is great, but in some circumstances it's completely the wrong tack to take because all it gives you is extraneous information that may or may not be relevant to your job. And if acquiring that info itself carries risks, (or there's a risk of false info that could lead to a bad decision), your taking risks with your ability to do your job for no good reason.

[Vikenlugaid]

By that logic, the actions of the vampires under Hel’s command were also safer for the world than the Order’s, since the fiends didn’t interfere during the Order’s fight with them, either. And that doesn’t make any sense, since… well, the vampires were literally trying to destroy the world.

I don’t think we can assume too much from the IFCC’s lack of interference.

Without V that battle would have been the same.

I mean... no? Unless you're talking about a game of football or something, but life is more complicated than that. It's why it's so important to listen to what people have to say. Even people who have seemingly conflicting goals can turn out to be allies as circumstances change or information is uncovered.

Actually, maybe that's why Serini gets under my skin in a way that few other characters in the entire comic has so far. I personally put a very high value on being willing to listen to others and giving them the benefit of the doubt, even when (or especially when) circumstances might suggest you should be hostile towards each other.

Then you don't like her for not listening to them, but you can listen all the people in the world and still YOU decide who is on your side, not someone just telling you "we are on your side", as you just said, is more complicated than that.

[ziproot]

Without V that battle would have been the same.

How about when V saved the ship? If they were pulled under then the ship could have crashed.

[AstralFire]

I am sure it will read better in long-form but in the moment I am extremely tired of Serini and her 'neutralize everything and refuse to listen to anyone'. This is nothing new for me. I find the Order's luck at critical junctures with the story rate super-frustrating often and I just came to gripe with kindred spirits. This is not a serious complaint, just a minor gripe.

This is in no way to be taken as a statement that the Order deserves free passes for anything that we've argued about before in the last 14 years of my forum account. Roy is frequently a terrible person, Belkar is just plain awful and no amount of redemption will make me miss him when he's dead, Vaarsuvius I despise but pity, Durkon did some not-nice things with his ex, etc etc etc. This is just a quirk of the format that will go. I just want to talk about a momentary, transient frustration without getting shut down for it.

[Emanick]

Without V that battle would have been the same.

In hindsight that's true, but only because Durkon was able to take over the vampire's mind. The fiends couldn't have known that would happen when V went in, guns-a-blazin'.

[Vikenlugaid]

How about when V saved the ship? If they were pulled under then the ship could have crashed.

Good point... But that happened so sudenly... the infernals see the world in real time, no? Maybe they just couldn't react in time.


But now? Maybe they just want this fight to be long, but the option that they want the Order to win this is there, and that's not "good" for the "Order being right and Serini wrong" argument.

In hindsight that's true, but only because Durkon was able to take over the vampire's mind. The fiends couldn't have known that would happen when V went in, guns-a-blazin'.

They watched the order plans of using V just as a decoy, they knew V had fire spells prepares and Vamps had fire resistance... From the beginning of that fight V was mostly useless. And he/she went KO the first.

Here instead he/she is one of the 3 following Serini now, without more antimagic, Haley withour bow,V now is more or less the only one who can actually stop Serini.

[hroþila]

In hindsight that's true, but only because Durkon was able to take over the vampire's mind. The fiends couldn't have known that would happen when V went in, guns-a-blazin'.

I don't think it's true that it'd have been the same. Yes, the Order would still have lost, but crucially the battle might have been a bit shorter, which would probably have given the vampires enough time to off the Order before Durkon could take over.