OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Vikenlugaid]

I don't think it's true that it'd have been the same. Yes, the Order would still have lost, but crucially the battle might have been a bit shorter, which would probably have given the vampires enough time to off the Order before Durkon could take over.

Well that was a hyperbole, of cours it wouldn't have been exactly the same, but obviously the infernals weren't seeing that as a good time to take V, he/she was mostly irrelevant there. But now he/she is almost the only one capable to do something vs Serini.

[Metastachydium]

Unmaking the last gate won't cause the snarl to devour the whole world instantly. It just puts the world on the clock, just like it was before they all got sealed.

Wrong. Soon's Rift was a pea-sized blotch when it got sealed. It's blotting out the sky over Gobbotopia City right now. Lirian's and especially Dorukan's is supposably even worse at this point and even Girard's had time to grow.

gewtting the world unmade by the gods to prevent a lich from ruling it can be justified. Do i belive it's a valid one? No. But people aren't perfect, not even paladins, (hence my example). Also the Giant has indicated some of the Paladins involved in the goblin massacres likely fell, and we know a prior commander of the sapphire guard did.

Miko is an extreme example. Thinking all paladins are potential Mikos is called paranoia. As for the SoD/GDGU paladins, they commited hideous crimes but even they didn't come even close to actively trying to destroy the world to spite a villain.

Also one of the oldest rules in the real world. You never know how someones going to act with their back to the wall until it actually happens.

So the Order/Guard Remnant should just try to kill or otherwise remove Serini from the picture? Who knows waht she will do in a tense situation like that! She might end up defecting to Xykon!

Well that was a hyperbole, of cours it wouldn't have been exactly the same, but obviously the infernals weren't seeing that as a good time to take V, he/she was mostly irrelevant there.

Yeah, that they could just dispel the dominations and the antilife shell was not a big deal. It wouldn't have changed much.

But now he/she is almost the only one capable to do something vs Serini.

Come again? They were supremely ineffective against her thus far.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yeah, that they could just dispel the dominations and the antilife shell was not a big deal. It wouldn't have changed much.

Exactly, an unconcious wizard wasn't a big deal at all, it wouldn't have changed... Anything XD

Ans V is uneffective vs Serini only cause he/she is using harmless spells. Still far more effective now than Haley without a bow or Belkar.

[Larsaan]

She might end up defecting to Xykon!

You joke, but I'm not sure I'd put it past her, depending on how cynical her assessment of the Order is.

[Metastachydium]

Exactly, an unconcious wizard wasn't a big deal at all, it wouldn't have changed... Anything XD

The fiends couldn't have known they will fall unconscious and if Roy got serious earlier, they could have been brought back into the fight.

Ans V is uneffective vs Serini only cause he/she is using harmless spells. Still far more effective now than Haley without a bow or Belkar.

Haley without a bow dis quite well against Serini thus far. V has achieved next to nothing.

[Vikenlugaid]

The fiends couldn't have known they will fall unconscious and if Roy got serious earlier, they could have been brought back into the fight.

The fiends knew the plan that the Order did before the fight, and that plan involved V being mostly support apparently, and then he/she went KO. There wasn't a single moment when they could have said "now, pull!" to really change something.
And, as long as we know, once they have pullled him/her, they must waste all of the time, they can't bring V back sooner and save time for later, if they could they would have done it right after Girards gate was destroyed.

Haley without a bow dis quite well against Serini thus far. V has achieved next to nothing.

Yes, Haley did when V was unconcious or under antimagic cone, but is not doing anymore, she can't do much now, if she could she wouldn't tell the others to shot her, she would have done something herself.
But V can potentialy do much more now, no more antimagic cone. And have done a lot till now, without the dispell Haley would be charmed now and Serini still invisible.

[Metastachydium]

The fiends knew the plan that the Order did before the fight, and that plan involved V being mostly support apparently, and then he/she went KO. There wasn't a single moment when they could have said "now, pull!" to really change something.

You misremember that. They served as the bait at the beginning of the battle, preparing the semi-incapacitation of much all the spawn and then they started blasting, doing quite some damage to the vampires.
But if you don't like the Dinig Hall, fine. How about the fight with the frost giants? V did much of the heavy lifting there and if it wasn't for their counterspells, the Order never arrives in Firmament.

Yes, Haley did when V was unconcious or under antimagic cone, but is not doing anymore, she can't do much now, if she could she wouldn't tell the others to shot her, she would have done something herself.
But V can potentialy do much more now, no more antimagic cone. And have done a lot till now, without the dispell Haley would be charmed now and Serini still invisible.

Yeah. We've seen them amble around slowly enough to get hit by an eye ray and then flying straight into a trap.

[hroþila]

To be honest, I don't think the fiends not pulling V from any given fight tells us much. They have limited uses, and they already used up one. Anyone who's made it through a video game without using any good consumables at all because what if you need them later* will understand.

*somehow this also applies to final boss fights

[Hurkyl]

*somehow this also applies to final boss fights

Of course it is. What if the boss has yet another form? Or you might need those items in post-game content. Or new game plus!

[Hurkyl]

At the moment, V is trapped by a lurker, so taking over their soul would be a waste. The one time it might have done something was the Prismatic Spray, but the Infernals like conflict and want more souls to go to hell. Taking V out would lead to the Order getting mind wiped and then the world ending, which prevents any more people from having their alignments shift to Evil, prevents any more conflict from occurring (like, say, a battle with Xykon), and means that whatever their plan is with Sabine won't work out as the world will end first. It might even lead to the end of their existence as well, as it looks like only actual deities survive the grace period. Though I would like to point out that until the date of Belkar's predicted death, the snarl cannot escape, as that would lead to Belkar dying earlier.

It's only the gods facing starvation, as I recall, although I can't find the strip referencing it. Outsiders just get their memories wiped, and even then that was just because they don't react well to the endless cycle of destruction and recreation.

Incidentally, I have a niggling feeling that the IFCC's goals aren't quite so small-scale as fostering conflict between mortals.

[Vikenlugaid]

To be honest, I don't think the fiends not pulling V from any given fight tells us much. They have limited uses, and they already used up one. Anyone who's made it through a video game without using any good consumables at all because what if you need them later* will understand.

*somehow this also applies to final boss fights

Yeah but they have 2 uses, and this is probably the last fight before the last one vs Xykon.

It's only the gods facing starvation, as I recall, although I can't find the strip referencing it. Outsiders just get their memories wiped, and even then that was just because they don't react well to the endless cycle of destruction and recreation.

Incidentally, I have a niggling feeling that the IFCC's goals aren't quite so small-scale as fostering conflict between mortals.

Well, they wanted the world to be destroyed in #1183. So their plans are not just fostering conflict between mortals.

[Hurkyl]

There's still the possibility that they can actually do more than just effectively incapacitate V for a few minutes.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah but they have 2 uses, and this is probably the last fight before the last one vs Xykon.

We are a mere 60 strips into a book that might end up as thick as a telephone book (as per the Giant). You sure you'd bet on that?
Also, again, pulling V out for 2 minutes during the fight with the giant clerics would have allowed the IFCC to achieve a strategic objective and still have a 20 minute up their sleeves, just in case. They didn't.

[Vikenlugaid]

We are a mere 60 strips into a book that might end up as thick as a telephone book (as per the Giant). You sure you'd bet on that?
Also, again, pulling V out for 2 minutes during the fight with the giant clerics would have allowed the IFCC to achieve a strategic objective and still have a 20 minute up their sleeves, just in case. They didn't.

I answered that yet. The key moment of V there happened all of a sudden.
They aren't diviners, but they apparently think that the Order is a better tool for their plans that Serini.
They obviously don't know this is the beggining of the last bool of this story. But yes, I bet that this is the last fight before the fight vs Xykon... At the very least we won't have a fight harder than this one before that one.

[Seward]

Of course it is. What if the boss has yet another form? Or you might need those items in post-game content. Or new game plus!

My wife is like that. Ends games with packs full of one-use items, careful stacks of untouched consumables etc.

Me, I like to use stuff as soon as I get it and my ideal game is defeating the boss just as I drink my last potion or fire my last +5 arrow, with an empty backpack. My feeling is that the game gives you more stuff, and the only way to be sure you will benefit from an ability/blessing/consumable/etc is to actually use it.

This approach has pretty much never bit me in the ass. If I run really low on consumables I just make sure I have enough for one boss fight, stash them somewhere and then recklessly go on using any extra consumables I find as I go.

[Metastachydium]

I answered that yet. The key moment of V there happened all of a sudden.

No you didn't. V was the key player throughout the giant fight, moreso than here.

They aren't diviners,

They have access to potent divination magic/methods.

but they apparently think that the Order is a better tool for their plans that Serini.

No, this is just your personal little speculation which didn't hold up well to scrutiny thus far. And even if you are right and the IFCC wants to help the Order through not hindering them (seriously?), they might just think Serini's actions help Xykon and they explicitly don't want Xykon to win.

They obviously don't know this is the beggining of the last bool of this story. But yes, I bet that this is the last fight before the fight vs Xykon... At the very least we won't have a fight harder than this one before that one.

That's a bold one, given that we already had two fights in 60 pages, but whatever.

[Hurkyl]

My wife is like that. Ends games with packs full of one-use items, careful stacks of untouched consumables etc.

Me, I like to use stuff as soon as I get it and my ideal game is defeating the boss just as I drink my last potion or fire my last +5 arrow, with an empty backpack. My feeling is that the game gives you more stuff, and the only way to be sure you will benefit from an ability/blessing/consumable/etc is to actually use it.

This approach has pretty much never bit me in the ass. If I run really low on consumables I just make sure I have enough for one boss fight, stash them somewhere and then recklessly go on using any extra consumables I find as I go.

For me, conservation was a habit borne from the old days when ether potions were very expensive and dungeon crawls were battles of attrition, so you didn't really have a glut of them.

But over time, it's actually become more of a 'medium mode' thing: restricting item usage is a difficulty slider that makes modern RPGs somewhat less trivial.

[Vikenlugaid]

No, this is just your personal little speculation which didn't hold up well to scrutiny thus far. And even if you are right and the IFCC wants to help the Order through not hindering them (seriously?), they might just think Serini's actions help Xykon and they explicitly don't want Xykon to win.


That's a bold one, given that we already had two fights in 60 pages, but whatever.

1- They want the world to be destroyed, for that they needed conflict between the order and xykon cause that conflict leads to destruction. Now, if the order lose, that conflict ends, and the conflict between Serini and Xykon is not that destructive apparently.

2- We have only had one fight of the Order with V till now, of course any fight that doesn't have V on it doesn't count for this, since the fiends can't pull Durkon, for example.

[Metastachydium]

1- They want the world to be destroyed, for that they needed conflict between the order and xykon cause that conflict leads to destruction. Now, if the order lose, that conflict ends, and the conflict between Serini and Xykon is not that destructive apparently.

Apparently, the destruction of the world is something that would help their plans come to fruition, but I'm pretty sure there must be more to that. That aside, since the "conflict" between Serini and Xykon is essentially nonexistent at this point, we are essentially back at what I've just said: it would seem that Serini is at least willing to just roll over and let Xykon win.

2- We have only had one fight of the Order with V till now, of course any fight that doesn't have V on it doesn't count for this, since the fiends can't pull Durkon, for example.

I know that. But that's still two fights in less than 60 pages, so neither "there won't be fights between now and the grand finale" nor "V will be absent for all fights until the grand finale" is exactly what I'd call a safe bet.

[Vikenlugaid]

Apparently, the destruction of the world is something that would help their plans come to fruition, but I'm pretty sure there must be more to that. That aside, since the "conflict" between Serini and Xykon is essentially nonexistent at this point, we are essentially back at what I've just said: it would seem that Serini is at least willing to just roll over and let Xykon win.



I know that. But that's still two fights in less than 60 pages, so neither "there won't be fights between now and the grand finale" nor "V will be absent for all fights until the grand finale" is exactly what I'd call a safe bet.

But if Xykon win now the world is destroyed, so the fiends don't think that Serini winning will lead to that, because the world being destroyed is good for them.

"there won't be fights between now and the fight vs Xykon", "V will be absent for all fights until the fight vs Xykon" or "there won't be fights before Xykon's that are decisive for the world" (they can fight random monsters all the times they want) or "there won't be fights where V is a key factor for the victory/defeat".
Is not a 100% sure bet, but i think is not a bad one.

[Metastachydium]

But if Xykon win now the world is destroyed, so the fiends don't think that Serini winning will lead to that, because the world being destroyed is good for them.

Xykon winning is a likelier outcome of Serini winning than the Order winning here. You are arguing against yourself.
(Further, I'd stress again that V being left alone likely doesn't mean what you think it means. Even if the IFCC is doing a cost-benefit analysis right now, they might simply not care enough either way to interfere.)

[Vikenlugaid]

Xykon winning is a likelier outcome of Serini winning than the Order winning here. You are arguing against yourself.

My argument is precisely that the fiends don't think like that at all, they think, like myself, that Serini got more defenses prepared for Xykon, defenses more effective than the Order... Like the rest of the gates had, btw.

[Metastachydium]

My argument is precisely that the fiends don't think like that at all, they think, like myself, that Serini got more defenses prepared for Xykon, defenses more effective than the Order... Like the rest of the gates had, btw.

And it's not a very good argument, because it makes assumptions about quite a number of variables, assumptions, I might add, that might not be valid to put it very mildly.
I think there's a reason why you never gave a proper answer as to why the IFCC didn't interfere with the fight against the giants, even though were the Order thwarted there, Hel's plan was pretty much guaranteed to succeed, whereas this is a tossup at best.

[Vikenlugaid]

And it's not a very good argument, because it makes assumptions about quite a number of variables, assumptions, I might add, that might not be valid to put it very mildly.
I think there's a reason why you never gave a proper answer as to why the IFCC didn't interfere with the fight against the giants, even though were the Order thwarted there, Hel's plan was pretty much guaranteed to succeed, whereas this is a tossup at best.

I have answered to that already. They couldn't know V was going to be key since the counterspell, and that happened all of a sudden (that's precisely the point of counterspell) so they only knew it when it had already happened, too late to pull. Rest of the fight V was not really that relevant for de Mechane to advance, the fiends just thought they lose the good opportunity there, which is exactly what happened.

And if you don't like my argument ok, but that doesn't mean it is a bad argument.
I find the argument "this gate, the last gate, is the only one that doesn't have a good big epic last line of defense" far worse than mine.

[Metastachydium]

I have answered to that already. They couldn't know V was going to be key since the counterspell, and that happened all of a sudden (that's precisely the point of counterspell) so they only knew it when it had already happened, too late to pull. Rest of the fight V was not really that relevant for de Mechane to advance, the fiends just thought they lose the good opportunity there, which is exactly what happened.

You do realize V was a key player all throughout the encounter, blasting giants left and right well before the clerics (about whom the IFCC probably knew, since they were monitoring Hel's game closely) showed up? Whether the Mechane is brought down by hurled rocks or a Blade Barrier is largely irrelevant. So no, you didn't answer the question.

And if you don't like my argument ok, but that doesn't mean it is a bad argument.

Like I said, it has too many moving part and it contains too many presuppositions the validity of which you cannot prove.

I find the argument "this gate, the last gate, is the only one that doesn't have a good big epic last line of defense" far worse than mine.

What if it has one? Lirian's wouldn't have stopped Xykon as he is now and Girard's would have been equally ineffective. Even Dorukan's was figured out after an admittedly long while by Team Evil. That doesn't guarantee jack.

[Ionathus]

Of course it is. What if the boss has yet another form? Or you might need those items in post-game content. Or new game plus!

I'm playing my way through Baldur's Gate (for the twentieth time) and just reached ToB, with possibly the MOST potions I have ever held.

Do I need literally 40 potions of Fire Resistance? No. But I am looking forward to trivializing the Marching Mountains...

[Vikenlugaid]

You do realize V was a key player all throughout the encounter, blasting giants left and right well before the clerics (about whom the IFCC probably knew, since they were monitoring Hel's game closely) showed up? Whether the Mechane is brought down by hurled rocks or a Blade Barrier is largely irrelevant. So no, you didn't answer the question.



Like I said, it has too many moving part and it contains too many presuppositions the validity of which you cannot prove.



What if it has one? Lirian's wouldn't have stopped Xykon as he is now and Girard's would have been equally ineffective. Even Dorukan's was figured out after an admittedly long while by Team Evil. That doesn't guarantee jack.

1- I don't think the rest of the fight V was really a key factor, apparently the infernals thought the same.

2- I can't prove anything, same as any theory of a work of fiction. But I am not inventing anything either.

3- Still that defenses were more effective protecting the gates than the Order ever was. That's a fact.

[Metastachydium]

1- I don't think the rest of the fight V was really a key factor, apparently the infernals thought the same.

Even if you were right (you are not; at that point V was the Order's only caster and they did much of the heavy lifting with their specialty school), the fiends had more than enough time to pull V out after the first counterspell. It's not like it consumes much time.

2- I can't prove anything, same as any theory of a work of fiction. But I am not inventing anything either.

Other than attributing your opinions to the archfiends without the slkightest bit of evidence, of course.

3- Still that defenses were more effective protecting the gates than the Order ever was. That's a fact.

Lirian's did not work out in the end and Girard's was never tested (luckily for Girard; illusions are not that potent against an epic lich). Meanwhile, the Order never tried to protect a defenseless Gate, so I'm not sure what your "fact" is based on.

[Rogan]

Lirian's did not work out in the end and Girard's was never tested (luckily for Girard; illusions are not that potent against an epic lich). Meanwhile, the Order never tried to protect a defenseless Gate, so I'm not sure what your "fact" is based on.

I would like to add that it is much easier to set up a strong defense for something if you have many years instead of a few days tops.

Given enough time, V could prepare many Explosive Runes and other long lasting warding spells, Durkon could call in planar allies, Roy could create some architectural defenses etc.

[Psyren]

Would you mind providing the source where the deva agreed to it would not have worked? Because my understanding is that Roy used the Gish gallop method there and happened to luck into the fact that it wasn't worth the Deva refuting it. But by all means, I'm more than willing to be shown the comic where the Deva says "that is an excellent point, and I feel comfortable with your decision." If such a comic exists, of course.

After Roy says "then I don't see the problem" The Deva clearly stops ("...") and has no reply or objections. Then we go to the next panel where she decides to remove Belkar's actions from Roy's record. There was no bulldozing happening there, she had plenty of time to formulate a feasible alternative if she saw one. Just like you have time now, and have yet to do so also.

And Roy had an option to listen to the Oracle trying to help him. That is, yet again, my point. We have characters who make potentially world-altering poor decisions because they think they have it figured out enough and rebuff outside help that would absolutely let them know that they don't have it figured out enough. This is one of many examples of Serini doing exactly what the Order themselves did, which, yet again, is my entire point. There are very few meaningful differences between how Serini is acting and how the Order has acted, and yet people are cheering for Serini to be put into her place. That has very ugly implications that I am not at all comfortable with, and I will continue to oppose any such claims.

Except Roy WAS put in his place for ignoring the Oracle. Not knowing Xykon was heading for Azure City next caused the entire city to be caught off guard, with Miko being the only source of warning mere hours before TE arrived, and forcing the Order into a battle that was way above their APL in order to protect the civilians who had no time to be properly evacuated. Roy paid for that mistake with his very life. I suppose that doesn't count though?

Wanting comeuppance for a character (and I don't even want her to die, like Roy did, to be clear) that hasn't gotten any yet, when others already have, does not have any ugly implications at all. I'm not sure if you're alluding to her gender being the cause in some way, but let me be clear - I'd find Serini just as irritating / unlikable no matter how she identified. (And if I was to attribute her abrasive attitude to a physical characteristic of some kind, I'd be far more likely to go with her age than her gender anyway.)