OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Oh come on, that's not what I meant at all and I'm pretty sure most of you know that. If she actually does what she plans to do now, that removes the Order from the equation and results in at minimum the gods unmaking the world, that was my point; whether she changes plans after learning the potential results is a different matter entirely.

Besides, I really don't think she's going to listen to the Order unless it's crammed down her throat, possibly with a feeding tube. The only reason she talked with the paladins is because they woke up and because she had fun rubbing her smug superiority in their faces, not to listen to them. Lien literally said they can't destroy this Gate and she didn't even listen.

[Seward]

What is this new thing, a carpet of doom?

Lurker.

AD&D had ceilings that drop on you (lurker), stalactites that drop on you (piercer) floors that rise up around you and grapple you (trapper), treasure chests or other objects you stick to and try to eat you (mimic), and stalagmites that spawned sticky arms that dragged you into their mouth (roper).

Most got ported in one fashion or another to 3.5. 3.5 added animated objects. Being grappled by a large persian rug was no joke, they often had constrict. I once had a whole barn attack me....it could get a little crazy. But animated objects aren't sentient, don't eat you or have eyes. This scribbler rogue likes to work with creatures that just PRETEND to be objects.

[danielxcutter]

I think you've been ninja'd like at least three times, sadly.

[Metastachydium]

I once had a whole barn attack me....

Was it white?

[MoonCat]

The creature that fell on V is likely a Lurker Above, one of several Gygaxian creations that depended on adventurers rushing ahead without checking the ceiling (like V did.)

Yeah, so why does the title say below? It's neither a reference to the actual creature name, nor the situation in-comic.

The creature is called a Lurker. The title is a play on the phrase "look out below".

Why would the phrase 'look out below' be relevant to this comic?

Well, that creature is called a lurker, and its way of attacking is pretty well represented here. There is a variation of this creature called the lurker below that lives underwater instead, but that doesn't make much sense. The only other mention of it I found was a Kraken from World of Warcraft.

Sure, it's lurker. It's clearly represented as attacking from above. Hence my confusion as to the title of the strip.

[elros]

I'm impressed that V was able to hit Serini with a spell that is negated by a reflex save. She should have least a +12 bonus, right?

I am also completely onboard with a montage of the Serini chase. It would give Elan a chance to complain that he missed it!

[Seward]

I'm impressed that V was able to hit Serini with a spell that is negated by a reflex save. She should have least a +12 bonus, right?

I am also completely onboard with a montage of the Serini chase. It would give Elan a chance to complain that he missed it!

Saving throws in this strip pretty much work by rule of drama. They in no way come even close to realistic outcomes rolling similar numbers of dice, not really ever.

Although I wouldn't put it past Serini to deliberately fail just to show off her dim-door wand as a way to taunt V. After all...the outcome was V wrapped up when rashly pursuing her as a result of being taunted....

Was it white?

No. But it was also a lot bigger than a Gazebo. Also a stone barn, which added a bit to the diffculty.

Being trampled by a barn while the picket fence tries to grapple you is just part of the joys of mid-level 3.5 adventuring. It got us while we were trying to determine if the iron statue in the square was going to attack or was just a decoy.....

[Kantaki]

Lurker.

AD&D had ceilings that drop on you (lurker), stalactites that drop on you (piercer) floors that rise up around you and grapple you (trapper), treasure chests or other objects you stick to and try to eat you (mimic), and stalagmites that spawned sticky arms that dragged you into their mouth (roper).

Most got ported in one fashion or another to 3.5. 3.5 added animated objects. Being grappled by a large persian rug was no joke, they often had constrict. I once had a whole barn attack me....it could get a little crazy. But animated objects aren't sentient, don't eat you or have eyes. This scribbler rogue likes to work with creatures that just PRETEND to be objects.

How did it go?
Your party comes to a house.
The inhabitants are monsters that will eat you.
The floor is a monster that will eat you.
The ceiling is a monster that will eat you.
The walls are monsters that will eat you.
The furniture is monsters that will eat you.
The treasure is monsters that will eat you.
The clothes on the floor are a monster that will eat you.
Survived everything? Well done.
The house is a monster that will eat you.

[danielxcutter]

...Does Animate Objects even work on a barn? Isn't it too big?

[Metastachydium]

No. But it was also a lot bigger than a Gazebo. Also a stone barn, which added a bit to the diffculty.

Being trampled by a barn while the picket fence tries to grapple you is just part of the joys of mid-level 3.5 adventuring. It got us while we were trying to determine if the iron statue in the square was going to attack or was just a decoy.....

Well, you're lucky it wasn't an iron barn a stone decoy statue! Hardness is a pain.

...Does Animate Objects even work on a barn? Isn't it too big?

Colossal animated objects are a thing, you know.

[danielxcutter]

Well, you're lucky it wasn't an iron barn a stone decoy statue! Hardness is a pain.

I've heard that animated adamantine objects are grossly under-CRed.

Colossal animated objects are a thing, you know.

Yeah, but with the spell I think you need an insanely high CL.

[Kantaki]

...Does Animate Objects even work on a barn? Isn't it too big?

I think there was a mimic variant that looked like buildings.
At least I remember something like that from a article on silly D&D monsters.

[Metastachydium]

I've heard that animated adamantine objects are grossly under-CRed.

Ouch.

Yeah, but with the spell I think you need an insanely high CL.

32, if I'm not mistaken. (Maybe a (bunch of red) wizard(s) did it?)

[bunsen_h]

How did it go?
Your party comes to a house.
The inhabitants are monsters that will eat you.
The floor is a monster that will eat you.
The ceiling is a monster that will eat you.
The walls are monsters that will eat you.
The furniture is monsters that will eat you.
The treasure is monsters that will eat you.
The clothes on the floor are a monster that will eat you.
Survived everything? Well done.
The house is a monster that will eat you.

Ah, Castle Heterodyne. "Avoid any floorstone marked in white. It is a trap that will kill you. Do not stand under any part of the ceiling marked in white. It is a trap that will kill you..."

[Peelee]

Serini thinking that she's right doesn't change the fact that if she succeeds it really will likely result in the end of this world at minimum.

Funny, you could have made that exact same argument about the Order destroying Girard's Gate. And yet.

Either intentions matter, and you should cut her a break, or intentions don't matter and you should be much harsher on the Order for directly blowing up two Gates. Instead, you are saying the protagonists should get every benefit of every doubt and it sucks for anyone else. This may be surprising, but I have an issue with that massive double standard.

[137beth]

I expect Elan will now be able to talk down Sunny. How the rest of the order deals with Serini is probably going to surprise me.

[Metastachydium]

Funny, you could have made that exact same argument about the Order destroying Girard's Gate. And yet.

To be fair, the Order kind of knew from Girard's device that Kraagor's Gate is still standing and knew for sure that Xykon will arrive to Girard's first.

Either intentions matter, and you should cut her a break, or intentions don't matter and you should be much harsher on the Order for directly blowing up two Gates.

(To be fair (again), in the strictest sense, Dorukan's wasn't destroyed by the Order, but rather by Elan and the rest of the Order was pissed (for various reasons, admittedly).)

Instead, you are saying the protagonists should get every benefit of every doubt and it sucks for anyone else. This may be surprising, but I have an issue with that massive double standard.

That's a good point, of course. That said, it would be easier to sympathize with Serini if she wasn't an incredibly smug jerk.

[Peelee]

To be fair, the Order kind of knew from Girard's device that Kraagor's Gate is still standing and knew for sure that Xykon will arrive to Girard's first.

But they didn't know it would trigger a Godsmoot to vote on whether to destroy the world, and further didn't know they were transporting an agent to hijack said moot to ensure the vote went to destruction. Their intent on both was good, but had "this will probably make the world blow up" consequences. And since I don't mind giving them the benefit of the doubt for their intentions, I can hardly deny that same courtesy to Serini.

[Rogan]

But they didn't know it would trigger a Godsmoot to vote on whether to destroy the world, and further didn't know they were transporting an agent to hijack said moot to ensure the vote went to destruction. Their intent on both was good, but had "this will probably make the world blow up" consequences. And since I don't mind giving them the benefit of the doubt for their intentions, I can hardly deny that same courtesy to Serini.

On the other hand, the negative consequences of the orders actions were nearly impossible to learn beforehand.
Serini only needs to talk to the order to get new Intel. If she can / should trust the info she would learn this way is another question.

[Metastachydium]

But they didn't know it would trigger a Godsmoot to vote on whether to destroy the world, and further didn't know they were transporting an agent to hijack said moot to ensure the vote went to destruction. Their intent on both was good, but had "this will probably make the world blow up" consequences. And since I don't mind giving them the benefit of the doubt for their intentions, I can hardly deny that same courtesy to Serini.

Again, fair, but like I said, the problem with Serini isn't the sum of her intentions. It's her attitude.
The Order tries to do its best and often fails; Serini does what she think is the best and is wrong in a number of ways. That's not an issue. But the Order's shortcomings don't stem from them thinking they are always the smartest fellows in the room.

[Raven777]

While I presume Rich plans for this to flow naturally once it’s all done, I’m getting a little tired of “Serini counters everything the Order does”. Hopefully this chase ends before next Halloween.

That being said I chuckled at V’s line in the last panel.

Serini is putting forth an excellent demonstration for the old balance argument that anything a sufficiently prepared Wizard can do, a sufficiently prepared Skillmonkey can replicate or counter with WBL and UMD. In short: she's playing an effective Rogue.

[zinycor]

Oh come on, that's not what I meant at all and I'm pretty sure most of you know that. If she actually does what she plans to do now, that removes the Order from the equation and results in at minimum the gods unmaking the world, that was my point; whether she changes plans after learning the potential results is a different matter entirely.

Besides, I really don't think she's going to listen to the Order unless it's crammed down her throat, possibly with a feeding tube. The only reason she talked with the paladins is because they woke up and because she had fun rubbing her smug superiority in their faces, not to listen to them. Lien literally said they can't destroy this Gate and she didn't even listen.

Yeah... so? it's the beggining of the arc, there needs to be some drama from somewhere...

[Larsaan]

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

[Peelee]

On the other hand, the negative consequences of the orders actions were nearly impossible to learn beforehand.
Serini only needs to talk to the order to get new Intel. If she can / should trust the info she would learn this way is another question.

Yes, but talking to them weakens her position. If she talked to them, then she would have rebuffed them and they would be more likely to be prepared to fight her. As is, they were wholly unprepared to fight her and she had a significantly more advantageous position. She was doing the best to defend her Gate from all threats, such as from the people who blew up two Gates. Again, hard to fault her for that intent.

Again, fair, but like I said, the problem with Serini isn't the sum of her intentions. It's her attitude.
The Order tries to do its best and often fails; Serini does what she think is the best and is wrong in a number of ways. That's not an issue. But the Order's shortcomings don't stem from them thinking they are always the smartest fellows in the room.

V certainly thought that when they cast Familicide, which completely decimated Girard's Gate's defenses. And then they figured they knew best when they destroyed Girard's Gate, despite that this directly triggered a vote on whether to pre-emptively destroy the world. Roy certainly figured he knew best when they toted a vampire around the world, delivering him just in time to sabotage said vote.

Again, hard to blame Serini when I don't blame the Order.

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

Being people means they can make choices for themselves. They're willing to help Serini. She's not a slavemaster. She's their ally, and they may be willing to die for the cause. That's their choice.

[Vikenlugaid]

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.

And all of this having the tactical leader KO im the first round.

[Psyren]

Yeah, so why does the title say below? It's neither a reference to the actual creature name, nor the situation in-comic.

They're underground, so the Lurker Above is technically Below. Don't overthink it

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

You are not, no.

[Peelee]

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.

And all of this having the tactical leader KO im the first round.

Aye. They're doing dang well for such a difficult fight, and continuously doing better. They have Serini going purely on the defensive, she's on the run.

[Vikenlugaid]

By competent I mean “able to do crap”. They… haven’t actually done much because Serini keeps pulling out contingencies out her ass. Ten quatloos says that another of her monsters is trying to eat the rest of the Order right now.

They acomplished don't being captured by an epic ambusher, I don't think that is "a crap".

[Rogan]

Yes, but talking to them weakens her position. If she talked to them, then she would have rebuffed them and they would be more likely to be prepared to fight her. As is, they were wholly unprepared to fight her and she had a significantly more advantageous position. She was doing the best to defend her Gate from all threats, such as from the people who blew up two Gates. Again, hard to fault her for that intent.

It would probably be even more easier for Serini to capture the order by faking cooperation first. Agree to talk to them, hear them out and use an ambush / drugs in their drinks / some other trap when they trust her.

The way she executed her trap, the order knew they were running into an ambush when they entered the cave. They failed to detect the kind of trap Serini had prepared and what kind of resources she could use.
But Serini herself was not that essential to the ambush. Any other ranged attacker could have taken her place.
So knowing Sereni is alive and involved would not have helped the order that much. And Serini could have outed herself to the order, without telling them about her sunny son.

[Peelee]

It would probably be even more easier for Serini to capture the order by faking cooperation first.

Which is probably what she thought they were doing. Either way is a risk, so she opted for "not give them any information" rather than "give them. Information they might use to try to ambush me".