OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogan]

Which is probably what she thought they were doing. Either way is a risk, so she opted for "not give them any information" rather than "give them. Information they might use to try to ambush me".

That's... actually a fair point, I guess.
On the other hand, I definitely didn't get the impression that Serini thought the order was looking forward to destroy the gates, only that they were willing to do so to stop X. So if the order was not out to destroy the gate right away and they are willing to work with the paladins (guardians of the gate of Soon), why would Serini assume the order would want to attack her?

[Seward]

Yeah, but with the spell I think you need an insanely high CL.

Well thankfully we didn't have to fight whomever animated the barn (and the fence).

The CR for a really big animated object is still middling. If you're at all savvy there are a lot of ways to fight them. They're most dangerous when high hardness at low CR, especially after some FAQ rulings that made them really hard to hurt with energy. They have some oddball weaknesses (really low will save but mindless. If you can find a spell that isn't mind affecting but is vs will, like Sanctuary, they are surprisingly helpless. Blinding them with glitterdust or fog or smoke helps, as does any reflex save type battlefield control spell if you've got any that are big enough (tanglefoot bags work well on smaller ones). They're also literally mindless so easily decoyed by things just able to outrun them, or who have really high AC or are somehow immune to their damage or are summoned expendibles etc.

You do, in the end, though, benefit greatly from just having a fighter who hits hard to actually kill the damn things. They soak a lot of damage, but are easy to hit.

In our case we were an 8thish level party vs a pure melee threat (if one that had some area capability). We took some hits, the spellcasters supported the melees, especially those with adamantine weapons and/or power attack, the archer used up the adamantine arrows he'd been hoarding etc. A lot of cure light wound wands were drained afterwards.

Honestly we were just thankful that it was NOT an Iron Golem encounter. I know it is weird to be relieved to have a barn attack you...

[Metastachydium]

V certainly thought that when they cast Familicide, which completely decimated Girard's Gate's defenses.

And who, exactly, ever defended V's decision to do so? Yes, they are to blame. As would be Serini if her plans here succeeded.

And then they figured they knew best when they destroyed Girard's Gate, despite that this directly triggered a vote on whether to pre-emptively destroy the world.

And they were right. Team Evil capturing a perfectly defenseless Gate would have triggered the same vote.

Roy certainly figured he knew best when they toted a vampire around the world, delivering him just in time to sabotage said vote.

That's simply neither fair, nor true. Roy had his doubts all the way long. It was not an "I can't be wrong because I'm smart and fantastic, you moronic children" kind of thing.

[luagha]

Eh? It's green fluid in a D&D comic that comes in a vial and reacts with a stone floor (so not poison). It's acid. How does it not look like acid?

I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous.

[Fyraltari]

And all of this having the tactical leader KO im the first round.

Turns out Roy was holding us back all along!
And, not only am I going to dance on your grave, but I am going to organize a huge for every paladin and law enforcement officer I can find.

[Seward]

I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous.

That was my thought too. Especially if it was 1st edition green slime.

[KorvinStarmast]

This may be surprising, but I have an issue with that massive double standard.

And thus with most novels, TV shows, and movies.

They have Serini going purely on the defensive, she's on the run.

Dare we predict that she's thinking "I've got them right where I want them!" at this point?

I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous.

Won't bet against.

[Peelee]

And who, exactly, ever defended V's decision to do so?

I'm not defending Serini. I think she's wrong. I just think she deserves the same understanding and forgiveness we extend to the Order. She certainly hasnt been as detrimental to the safety of the planet as they have, yet she is getting all of the hate for being detrimental to the safety of the planet. Which I think is more than a bit hypocritical.

That's simply neither fair, nor true. Roy had his doubts all the way long. It was not an "I can't be wrong because I'm smart and fantastic, you moronic children" kind of thing.

Belkar, an expert on Evil people, was screaming from the mountaintop that the vampire was bad news. It fell on deaf ears. Not to mention Roy actively hiding the vampirism from the clerics he met in Tinkertown. Because they would have thought the evil creature that shouldn't have been trusted was an evil creature that shouldn't be trusted, the foolish clerics. Good thing Roy knew better.

And, again, I see where Roy was coming from and understand. Just like I do the same for Serini, instead of thinking she is Evil and just a terrible person for daring to oppose the people who blow up Gates because it seems like a good idea at the time.

[Shining Wrath]

Trapper next, I guess. All the things falling from the sky, time for a lethal rug.

I'm going with "this dungeon is full of minions" and it's probably for the best to not chase her.

[Blatt]

The Lurker is going NOM NOM NOM

V must be tasty!!

[Metastachydium]

I'm not defending Serini. I think she's wrong. I just think she deserves the same understanding and forgiveness we extend to the Order. She certainly hasnt been as detrimental to the safety of the planet as they have, yet she is getting all of the hate for being detrimental to the safety of the planet. Which I think is more than a bit hypocritical.

As far as I'm concerned, V gets forgiveness and understanding because the experience and the knowledge of what they did humbled them and they are actively seeking to make amends. I'll most likely warm up to Serini as well once she's off the high horse.

Belkar, an expert on Evil people, was screaming from the mountaintop that the vampire was bad news. It fell on deaf ears. Not to mention Roy actively hiding the vampirism from the clerics he met in Tinkertown. Because they would have thought the evil creature that shouldn't have been trusted was an evil creature that shouldn't be trusted, the foolish clerics. Good thing Roy knew better.

No. Roy didn't think he knew better. He remained conflicted regarding the issue right until it got resolved.

And, again, I see where Roy was coming from and understand. Just like I do the same for Serini, instead of thinking she is Evil and just a terrible person for daring to

I don't think she's Evil. Never did. I do think she's a terrible person, but that's mainly because she's a smug jerks. I don't like smug jerks, do you now?

oppose the people who blow up Gates because it seems like a good idea at the time.

For the umpteenth time, the Order didn't think blowing up Dorukan's was a good idea. Neither did Elan. He's just dumb as a box of mouldy carrots.
Further, like I said, blowing up Girard's Gate was a good idea or, at any rate, it didn't change much.

[Peelee]

No. Roy didn't think he knew better. He remained conflicted regarding the issue right until it got resolved.

You realize you just linked a comic where Roy says "My gut is smarter than his gut", right?

I don't think she's Evil.

Never said you did. I'm not arguing against you. I'm arguing against the general idea out forth by several people which purported multiple claims. Not every person needs to have agreed to each and every claim, I'm just saying "claims like this were level at Serini and not the protagonists and I think that is unfair."

Sure, Serini is smug. I'd also like to see her get k ocked off her high horse. I certainly think she will be. I just don't think it will be only her that needs to see the need to compromise, and that the Order will also have to acknowledge that she has some pretty damn good points that they need to address in order to work together.

For the umpteenth time, the Order didn't think blowing up Dorukan's was a good idea.

I'm glad that we know, without any doubt whatsoever, that Serini has perfect knowledge of everything that happened as we do. Because that means we can blame her instead of realizing that she likely just knows that this group destroyed two Gates and is probably dangerous to her Gate.

[Psyren]

I'm glad that we know, without any doubt whatsoever, that Serini has perfect knowledge of everything that happened as we do. Because that means we can blame her instead of realizing that she likely just knows that this group destroyed two Gates and is probably dangerous to her Gate.

She's sure acting like she has perfect knowledge...

I'm going with "this dungeon is full of minions" and it's probably for the best to not chase her.

The alternative is letting her get away to regroup, and then having her pop out out of a corner again with more infinite-DC sleep darts. It sucks, but "chase the rogue" is probably the better option.

[Metastachydium]

You realize you just linked a comic where Roy says "My gut is smarter than his gut", right?

He's talking about Belkar "Idumpedmywisdomscore" Bitterleaf there. And I'm absolutely certain you didn't miss that the strip's about how "[h]is intuition and intellect are in agreement, yet [he] still remains conflicted."

Never said you did. I'm not arguing against you. I'm arguing against the general idea out forth by several people which purported multiple claims. Not every person needs to have agreed to each and every claim, I'm just saying "claims like this were level at Serini and not the protagonists and I think that is unfair."

Sure, Serini is smug. I'd also like to see her get k ocked off her high horse. I certainly think she will be. I just don't think it will be only her that needs to see the need to compromise, and that the Order will also have to acknowledge that she has some pretty damn good points that they need to address in order to work together.

I'm not sure there's an actual disagreement between you and me, then.

I'm glad that we know, without any doubt whatsoever, that Serini has perfect knowledge of everything that happened as we do. Because that means we can blame her instead of realizing that she likely just knows that this group destroyed two Gates and is probably dangerous to her Gate.

[Shrugs.] I mean, she knew more about how Soon's Gate was destroyed than she had any right to. Plus what Psyren said.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[pendell]

There used to be a Batman TV show starring Adam West. There were always two episodes in every arc. In the first episode, Batman and Robin would be clobbered by the villains of the week and dumped in some unescapable death track. Cue credits.

About 5 minutes into the second episode, they'd be on their feet and capturing the villains because Batman just happened to have the right tool on his utility belt to solve the problem. Dumped in water? Good thing he had a bat-snorkel mask. Throw in sharks? Ah, but he had bat-shark repellent, also on his belt. Throw in laser beams on top of the shark's head? He's got the bat-reflecting surface.

Man always had a plan.

And, in this story, Serini is Batman.

She kinda has to be. She's a rogue. Rogues don't survive solo encounters with high-level adventuring parties unless they're crazy prepared for just about every contingency. Haley's no different. She carries a golf bag's worth of wands and potions for those times she's not backed up by a party wizard or cleric.

So I'm willing to accept everything Serini has done so far as believable. She's got magic items out the wazoo. She has allies in the dungeon she built. Now that she's retreating, she's doing so along what is certainly a planned escape route with obstacles and traps to slow down her pursuers. "Epic-level" isn't just a stat block, after all. It's decades of adventuring experience which have kept her alive this long.

So I don't think any of this is unfair, and it wouldn't surprise me if Serini got away.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

She's sure acting like she has perfect knowledge...

Yes, I already agreed that she is being quite smug.

That aside, saying that is like saying the Order acted like they had perfect knowledge when they blew up Girard's Gate. Which, again, puts both sides on pretty equal footing (barring the smugness).

He's talking about Belkar "Idumpedmywisdomscore" Bitterleaf there. And I'm absolutely certain you didn't miss that the strip's about how "[h]is intuition and intellect are in agreement, yet [he] still remains conflicted."

And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right. Exactly as Serini is doing. The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of animosity for her.

[Metastachydium]

And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right.

My point is that he had his doubts and accordingly, what motivated him wasn't "look at me, I'm smarter than you all" but simply the hope that his best friend is in there.

The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of distaste for her.

I think there might be a connection of the causal sort between the two.

[Peelee]

My point is that he had his doubts and accordingly, what motivated him wasn't "look at me, I'm smarter than you all" but simply the hope that his best friend is in there.

Serini clearly has doubts as well (eg, "[existing] was nice while it lasted"). We don't see her whole picture because we've spent much less time with her, and almost all that we have spent has been her making pretty good points about why she has reason to doubt the paladins and the Order would be good allies.

I think there might be a connection of the causal sort between the two.

I envy your optimism.

[Rogan]

And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

Roy did check on Durkon* to hear his prayers. Roy didn't let the vampire do whatever he wanted, he was with him most of the time, especially in tinkertown. He was forced to leave Durkon at the Godsmoot, but to the best of his knowledge, the creed would take care of the Vampire to stop him from evil doings.
It didn't work out as planned, but which kind of reasonable precautions would you suggest on top of the things Roy already did?

[Metastachydium]

Serini clearly has doubts as well (eg, "[existing] was nice while it lasted"). We don't see her whole picture because we've spent much less time with her,

Which is why I said earlier that I might very well warm up to her if we get to see her more relatable side a bit more.

and almost all that we have spent has been her making pretty good points about why she has reason to doubt the paladins and the Order would be good allies.

Many of those points were not exactly what I'd describe as good. ("You are dumb children not as smart as Auntie Serini"; "you can't trust paladins with not destroying the world out of sheer pride" etc.).

I envy your optimism.

At any rate, that's why I don't like her, and I'm probably not the only one. Sadly enough, yes, there are other plausible explanations as well.

[Peelee]

Many of those points were not exactly what I'd describe as good. ("You are dumb children not as smart as Auntie Serini"; "you can't trust paladins with not destroying the world out of sheer pride" etc.).

What we saw was more like:
"You destroyed a Gate so I don't trust you to not destroy another."
"That was only because we were losing!"
"That does not fill me with confidence like you seem to think it should."

She has good reason. The Order has good counters. Both things can be true.

[Quizatzhaderac]

SO I've notice the lurker's teeth are positioned optimally to make it look like it has a face, but terrible to actually chew anything it has enveloped.

Which is fine for a parody comic; I only wonder if V will complain, like with the owlbears.

I do find it interesting that she only popped 10-20ft. away from the bubble instead of taking the opportunity to blink 400ft. away. Does she not know her own dungeon that well, or is she luring them to something specific?

I think Rich just didn't want all the negative space of jumping to the furthest wall.

Next strip, the world is saved, no explanation! Now that's where saving time leads xD

Roy just needs to pants up and save the world.

[Peelee]

SO I've notice the lurker's teeth are positioned optimally to make it look like it has a face, but terrible to actually chew anything it has enveloped.

Maybe it doesn't chew, but swallows whole if possible (like a gator) or maybe just gums on its prey and the teeth help prevent escape.

I think Rich just didn't want all the negative space of jumping to the furthest wall.

Aye actual logistics be damned, showing her escape and reappearance in the same panel was great conservation of storytelling.

[Vikenlugaid]

Serini thinking that she's right doesn't change the fact that if she succeeds it really will likely result in the end of this world at minimum.

But she can't know they are the protagonists of this story.
And again, I still think the Order actions will lead to de destruction of this world.

[Vikenlugaid]

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

Monsters are people, and people can be soldiers too. I am sure Hinjo thinks the paladins are people, and he let them all die at the throne room... And he is undoubtedly Lawful Good.

[Peelee]

So, new question. What was in the vial that Serini threw?

[Vikenlugaid]

That's simply neither fair, nor true. Roy had his doubts all the way long. It was not an "I can't be wrong because I'm smart and fantastic, you moronic children" kind of thing.

Roy with Durkon was exactly the same as Serini here, he could have listened to Belkar but he just didn't trust him, like Serini not listening to the order because she doesn't trust them. Both have reasons not to trust, but were wrong at the end.

[Larsaan]

Being people means they can make choices for themselves. They're willing to help Serini. She's not a slavemaster. She's their ally, and they may be willing to die for the cause. That's their choice.

Well, sure, I'm not saying she's coercing them or anything. I'd just, I dunno, expect a more emotional reaction out of her? From seeing her supposed friends giving up their lives to help her escape, you know?

[Peelee]

Well, sure, I'm not saying she's coercing them or anything. I'd just, I dunno, expect a more emotional reaction out of her? From seeing her supposed friends giving up their lives to help her escape, you know?

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I saw any of them giving up their lives currently.