OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Larsaan]

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if I saw any of them giving up their lives currently.

Give Belkar a moment with those knives. How else do you think he's going to peel that lurker off V?

[Mariele]

I am also completely onboard with a montage of the Serini chase. It would give Elan a chance to complain that he missed it!

*Yakety Sax plays*

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder? Sure, Sunny should be able to take care of herself, but the Order could very easily kill Franklin and this lurker (and don't have much incentive not to).

I getcha, but personally, I was thinking of this as more *heroic soldier moment where he decides to charge the enemy and save his commander* rather than *evil commander sends his soldiers to die like pawns*. Same outcome, but different perspective and intentions.

Yeah... so? it's the beggining of the arc, there needs to be some drama from somewhere...

Man, don't even bother.

[Peelee]

Give Belkar a moment with those knives. How else do you think he's going to peel that lurker off V?

Again, I'll sympathize with your position once I see it happening.

[Ruck]

As far as I'm concerned, V gets forgiveness and understanding because the experience and the knowledge of what they did humbled them and they are actively seeking to make amends. I'll most likely warm up to Serini as well once she's off the high horse.

That's nice and all, but one of these people concluded from the evidence available that the Order was a threat to her Gate and is trying to neutralize that, and the other committed genocide out of revenge.

And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right. Exactly as Serini is doing. The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of animosity for her.

Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

[Peelee]

Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

Agreed. That really gets to me - I said it before a few strips ago, but my understanding is that she's getting a lot of hate because how dare she be uppity.

[Larsaan]

Honestly? Kinda, yeah. I don't dislike Serini for being an antagonist to the Order, certainly I don't think she's a worse person than anyone on Team Evil (except MitD, of course), or the Linear Guild, or the Vector Legion, but I still find those characters more enjoyable to see on page. What aggravates me about her is her consistently low-key rotten attitude.

But no, not because she's uppity, but because she displays a consistent attitude of seeing everyone around her as lesser and dumber than her.

[Ruck]

Honestly? Kinda, yeah. I don't dislike Serini for being an antagonist to the Order, certainly I don't think she's a worse person than anyone on Team Evil (except MitD, of course), or the Linear Guild, or the Vector Legion, but I still find those characters more enjoyable to see on page. What aggravates me about her is her consistently low-key rotten attitude.

But no, not because she's uppity, but because she displays a consistent attitude of seeing everyone around her as lesser and dumber than her.

uppity (adj.) - self-important; arrogant.

So, no, it's not because she's uppity; it's because her attitude is one that could be described as "uppity."

[Larsaan]

Well, if you want to use a strictly dictionary-only definition, sure. But let's not pretend that the word doesn't have a lot of baggage in modern online discourse.

[Ruck]

I am saying that the implications of your criticism aren't fundamentally different from calling her "uppity."

More broadly, I'm not sure what the right word to describe my feelings here is, so I'll say, I find it troubling when people judge others based on attitudes and feelings rather than actions.

[bunsen_h]

Maybe it doesn't chew, but swallows whole if possible (like a gator) or maybe just gums on its prey and the teeth help prevent escape.

Maybe it's like a Venus Fly Trap leaf. It has a few "teeth" around the edge, but those are just to help contain the prey while the trapper works on making a good watertight seal around it. Then it secretes a bath of enzymes to dissolve the nutrients out of the prey, absorbs them, then opens up, letting the indigestible residue drop free.

[Peelee]

Maybe it's like a Venus Fly Trap leaf. It has a few "teeth" around the edge, but those are just to help contain the prey while the trapper works on making a good watertight seal around it. Then it secretes a bath of enzymes to dissolve the nutrients out of the prey, absorbs them, then opens up, letting the indigestible residue drop free.

Which perfectly describes why you might find gold or a magic item after defeating one!

[Potatopeelerkin]

My bubble cannot be burst. It is impervious to physical damage. You circumvented my bubble.

I love V.

Haley has those speedy boots, right? Maybe she could carry Belkar as they run after her (and V flies). That said it might be a bit late to catch her now.

[Edward15]

I mean rogues, specially very high level ones, are like that. And you are forgetting that now she is on the run because how Hailey countered her plan.

Uh, and how do we know that what she's doing isn't another plan? There's a good chance she's leading Hayley, V, and Belkar into a trap.

[Larsaan]

More broadly, I'm not sure what the right word to describe my feelings here is, so I'll say, I find it troubling when people judge others based on attitudes and feelings rather than actions.

There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

None of this makes her a villain, of course, although that might be the problem; We expect better of people who are on Team Good. I'm not waiting for Serini to get some sort of "comeuppance", but I do hope her personality flaws are adressed at some point in the comic, in the same way other characters have had their personality flaws adressed in the past.

[Ruck]

There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

None of this makes her a villain, of course, although that might be the problem; We expect better of people who are on Team Good. I'm not waiting for Serini to get some sort of "comeuppance", but I do hope her personality flaws are adressed at some point in the comic, in the same way other characters have had their personality flaws adressed in the past.

OK, well, unpleasant personality, I won't really argue with you. Even if I don't find it such, as long as we aren't confusing personality for character, I don't really mind.

For me, though, I don't really think of her personality traits yet as "flaws"; I think of her behavior as the logical extension of what and who she has concluded the Order is/are. Once we see more interaction between them (I am assuming that is inevitable) and she learns the relevant information they have, I would expect her to treat them a little differently. Maybe not less sarcastically, but, you know, perhaps more respectfully.

And as I've said before, I think, I do find it interesting to see a Good person who should be on the side of the Order but has pretty good reasons to oppose them-- hearing her explanation to the paladins was a nice moment of "Oh, yeah, it would look that way from her perspective." I like that in stories, when I'm surprised by a thought process and perspective that's logical but that I hadn't considered before.

[Skull the Troll]

I am saying that the implications of your criticism aren't fundamentally different from calling her "uppity."

More broadly, I'm not sure what the right word to describe my feelings here is, so I'll say, I find it troubling when people judge others based on attitudes and feelings rather than actions.

Uppity can imply a racial connotation that I'm not sure is present in the forums. I think she's a great (temporary?) antagonist but to be a good antagonist you need to be taking the wrong actions for some semblance of the right reasons.

[Ruck]

I am aware of those connotations and while I don't think those specific connotations are what is happening here, I do think the general attitude is still that of "Serini should know her place and it's subservient to the Order," and that's a problem for me. It may not have the racial connotations but it's the same attitude toward her as is expressed in real life by that word.

[Alexandrite]

I feel like the general behavior towards Serini is more "wow, she's annoying". Some might find her attitude funny and not have a problem with it, others might want the Order to knock her out so she'll stop saying things.

I don't think there's such a widespread sentiment of "Serini should know her place and listen to everything the Order says" when it's natural for many readers to empathize more with OotS because they're the ones we've been following this whole time. She's a side character, albeit a very important one, whom we haven't gotten much time to know and is actively unpleasant whenever she's onscreen. It's understandable for people to dislike her without jumping to an extreme such as "most of them think she's being too uppity and should submit to the Order".

People often act and make decisions based on emotion, because they are people. No doubt Serini has better qualities that would make it easier for more people to empathize with her, but so far she hasn't done a whole lot to show them.

[Peelee]

There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

You just described several members of the Order of the Stick, interestingly enough. And yet they get passes. Which, I have to note, is exactly the drum that I've been beating.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno if that’s what’s actually happening but it sure feels like you’re conflating the “I don’t like Serini” positions with “I think Serini is baddumbevul and needs to be shown her place and killed” positions.

[Hurkyl]

It's understandable for people to dislike her without jumping to an extreme such as "most of them think she's being too uppity and should submit to the Order".

I don't think he meant that people intentionally and consciously have that attitude, but instead that it's the consequence of a bias: that someone sides against Serini without giving her fair consideration when she conflicts with the Order, because they find her annoying and like the Order.

[Ruck]

I don't think he meant that people intentionally and consciously have that attitude, but instead that it's the consequence of a bias: that someone sides against Serini without giving her fair consideration when she conflicts with the Order, because they find her annoying and like the Order.

That's probably a better way of framing it, yeah. As I believe Peelee has made the point before (and just recently, in fact), the criticisms of Serini could easily be applied to members of the Order, so giving them a pass but not her reeks of bias, conscious or otherwise. And I think part of that bias is that Serini ought to be fundamentally subservient to them-- in the narrative, or in their plans to stop Xykon, or in some other way.

[zinycor]

Am just very surprised at the reception Serini has had... I for one like her, she says what she wants, solves problems by her own hands and is like a mix of Hailey + Belkar.

Very cool in my book.

[BriarHobbit]

I thought that the tiny lurker above was great and enjoyed the comic quite a bit. Serini is still trying to win this fight. She could have teleported out of the Order's sight but instead, she is showing herself. I am not sure why she did not use another Improved Invisibility spell, but I appreciate seeing different strategies in this fight.

[zinycor]

Uh, and how do we know that what she's doing isn't another plan? There's a good chance she's leading Hayley, V, and Belkar into a trap.

I would be absolutely fine with that, in fact it makes sense for that to be the case.

[Hurkyl]

And as I've said before, I think, I do find it interesting to see a Good person who should be on the side of the Order but has pretty good reasons to oppose them-- hearing her explanation to the paladins was a nice moment of "Oh, yeah, it would look that way from her perspective." I like that in stories, when I'm surprised by a thought process and perspective that's logical but that I hadn't considered before.

I found it particularly interesting because I've thought about the "lawful vs chaotic" (well, in a different context, but close enough) conflict to try and work out reasonable reasons to be deeply distrustful of lawful types -- and I mean even when you accept them for who they are rather going Girard's route.

And the strongest among them was that you couldn't trust them not to put some random matter of principle above their own beliefs and interests (or even other principles) in random and bizarre ways, and thus start acting in highly counterproductive ways. And it's very difficult to reason them out of it.

So it was really neat to see Serini applying those very ideas in #1228 when explaining why she can't trust the paladins.

[Carl]

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

They're fighting an epic level rouge, with a pre-prepared set of crazy trick and plans. If it doesn't feel like that Serreni isn't competent.

Lurker.

AD&D had ceilings that drop on you (lurker), stalactites that drop on you (piercer) floors that rise up around you and grapple you (trapper), treasure chests or other objects you stick to and try to eat you (mimic), and stalagmites that spawned sticky arms that dragged you into their mouth (roper).

Most got ported in one fashion or another to 3.5. 3.5 added animated objects. Being grappled by a large persian rug was no joke, they often had constrict. I once had a whole barn attack me....it could get a little crazy. But animated objects aren't sentient, don't eat you or have eyes. This scribbler rogue likes to work with creatures that just PRETEND to be objects.

Could be worse, could have been a gazeebo :p.



As far as Serenni goes. Can she be annoying at times? Sure. She's almost a grmupy granny classic honestly. But she's also one of the members of a group that spent years fixing this problem the first time and who lost one of their own doing so. On top of that it's clear she's got some emotional baggage over the aftermath of Xykon's attack on her. To one degree or another, (despite an interlude where she was wondering around on her own), the gates have been a major part of her existence since before any member of the current order was even born. She's lost friends and seen almost everything they ever worked for obliterated over that long time period. If as a result she's seriously cranky i'll give her some slack.

[Psyren]

I think Rich just didn't want all the negative space of jumping to the furthest wall.

Eh, a split panel would have covered that just fine while allowing her to put a bunch more distance between her and her pursuers.
Unless of course, as suspected, she's staying close-ish to her pursuers because she has more obstacles to lure them into.

And yet they get passes.

I wouldn't call anything the Order went through, individually or collectively, "getting passes."

There's more than one type of judging. Really, I don't think she's a morally bankrupt person, I think she's an unpleasant person. She's constantly slinging puerile insults, she talks down to everyone around her, she enacts mild physical violence against those she has under her power, and the only person she's shown the slightest bit of dignity towards is Sunny (who she still treats more like a sidekick than anything else).

None of this makes her a villain, of course, although that might be the problem; We expect better of people who are on Team Good. I'm not waiting for Serini to get some sort of "comeuppance", but I do hope her personality flaws are adressed at some point in the comic, in the same way other characters have had their personality flaws adressed in the past.

Yeah, that.

[Peelee]

I wouldn't call anything the Order went through, individually or collectively, "getting passes."

Nor would I. I'm talking about people's reactions on the forums. Roy hurls puerile insults all day long, to the point that even the deva who is letting him into Celestia tells him to knock it off. No problem. Serini does it? How dare she. V talks down to people. Well that's just V being V, and Serini is not V, so what's her excuse? Belkar enacts gross physical violence against those he has under his power. What a lovable scamp! Serini does mild? That bitch!

I would absolutely call that "getting passes".

Basically, this:

I don't think he meant that people intentionally and consciously have that attitude, but instead that it's the consequence of a bias: that someone sides against Serini without giving her fair consideration when she conflicts with the Order, because they find her annoying and like the Order.

[Romgor]

Seriously tho, [...] this particular page felt a little like filler-y to me. Am i the only one ?

No, it felt very filler-y. So did that one in the previous book where blackwing pulls out his sunglasses.

On the other hand, some comics like Schlock Mercenary and The Adventures of Dr. McNinja have suddenly wrapped up very quickly when it came to their last chapter or so. It almost felt like the authors were trying to leave the room so to speak after releasing years of lovingly crafted hilarious content for free. So if Rich goes the other direction, I won't mind, I will read anything he wants to write about these characters.