OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

As long as the next few comics aren't also Serini going "nuh uh you didn't tag me" it'll probably be fine.

[Breccia]

Given that Serini's whole shtick is "monsters are people too", am I the only one who's put off by how willing she is to use them as meat shields and fodder?

If you're referring to the Lurker Above, I was under the impression they were nonsentient. If so, I would imagine "monsters are people too" does not apply to something of horse-level intelligence.

I was thinking Green Slime in a vial, which is incredibly incredibly dangerous.

It fizzled when it was exposed to air and stone. Honestly, that should narrow it down. Most acids shouldn't affect most stones, and I'm pretty sure green slime doesn't either. If the fizzling is because it was exposed to air, i.e. a cinematic hissing sound to represent "this stuff is dangerous" then it could also be contact poison -- something Half-Batman would almost certainly know about, have onhand, and throw at what appear to be two targets with crappy Fortitude saving throws. (She was clearly not aiming at Belkar)Dragon Bile is expensive, but what else would you spend the money on when the world's about to end? I think we can safely rule out the standard nearly-no-damage acid, as she's literally be better off throwing vials of ink against their hit points. But considering she likely has her own literal homebrew, it could be super acid.

I mentally ruled out poison gas. The fumes didn't seem thick enough and everyone ran away from the effect. And I handwave the possibility it was a random dud.

It could also be something more exotic I don't know about, of course.

[danielxcutter]

I thought acid does react with rocks.

[Oromin]

I thought acid does react with rocks.

It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

[Metastachydium]

What we saw was more like:
"You destroyed a Gate so I don't trust you to not destroy another."
"That was only because we were losing!"
"That does not fill me with confidence like you seem to think it should."

She has good reason. The Order has good counters. Both things can be true.

"You'll destroy the last Gate and erase everyone out of existence just because you're sore losers" is not as good an argument as you present it as. As for the Order, though, I agree. She has no reason to trust them.

Roy with Durkon was exactly the same as Serini here, he could have listened to Belkar but he just didn't trust him, like Serini not listening to the order because she doesn't trust them. Both have reasons not to trust, but were wrong at the end.

I've already addressed this and won't do it again.

That's nice and all, but one of these people concluded from the evidence available that the Order was a threat to her Gate and is trying to neutralize that, and the other committed genocide out of revenge.

Yes, V's the most terrible mass murderer in the history of the Stickverse and Serini isn't as of now. But that's beside the point. Acknowledging that they were wrong, feeling guilt &c. makes V relatable. Once Serini will show a more healthy attitude than "I'm smarter than you and everyone dumb children" she'll be relatable as well, but I have difficulty sympathizing with smug jerks.
To give another example of such a setup: do you find Eugene more relatable than V because (other than the usual adventurer kills) he only ever killed one person and that out of accident.

Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

To be fair, I also think the arguments he peppered the paladins with are mostly bovine excrement.

It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

Yay to chemistry!

[Liquor Box]

Funny, you could have made that exact same argument about the Order destroying Girard's Gate. And yet.

and yet...

people (including you) actually did make that argument. Indeed, that is effectively the argument Serini is making to justify her actions.

Why does Serini get a pass? Either intent matters or it doesn't.

Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on Metastachydium or anybody, I just think these two posts really underline that some significant portion of the opposition to Serini on here, or thinking that what Serini is doing is worse than anything the Order did, is not because of the actual decisions or their consequences, but because she doesn't feel bad about it.

Are you able to be more specific here. Who has said that what Serini did was worse than anything the Order has done?

To use the V famliacide example, most people would agree it was an awful thing to do. I think most people would agree that lots of things members of the Order have done are either wrong, or not a good idea (even based on what they knew). It seems to me that the pass is being given by the people who are vehemently denying that Serini is making a mistake (based on what she knows).

Is there an example that you are thinking of?

Hah! Belkar always gets the best punchlines.

Belkar is the funniest character I reckon, and my favourite.

[Linworm]

Nor would I. I'm talking about people's reactions on the forums. Roy hurls puerile insults all day long, to the point that even the deva who is letting him into Celestia tells him to knock it off. No problem. Serini does it? How dare she. V talks down to people. Well that's just V being V, and Serini is not V, so what's her excuse? Belkar enacts gross physical violence against those he has under his power. What a lovable scamp! Serini does mild? That bitch!

I would absolutely call that "getting passes".

Probably because context matters.

Roy doesn't hurl puerile insults like Serini does, what he does is troll, taunt and burn, always with a certain degree of intelligence, which is different from Serini's juvenile "you stinking dummy face!" childish attacks.
V talks down to people but is also open to understanding should the enemy attempt at parley, which Serini has proven incapable of no matter their clear desire to sit down and talk.
Belkar is Belkar. He IS an evil character, a sociopath that doesn't care about the suffering of others. He doesn't get a pass, he's recognized as a bad guy, meaning that Serini doesn't get to escape the same treatment.

And most important of all: the OotS characters have been shown as having good sides that balance or even outweight their cons. They're flawed people who're trying to do better.
Serini so far has been nothing but an unrepentant, undiluted 100% ass, nothing but negative, no surprise her reception isn't exactly being warm.

Maybe in the future she'll come to be a sympathetic and lovable character, but so far the only thing she's earned is the Kubota Treatment.

[Ruck]

Yes, V's the most terrible mass murderer in the history of the Stickverse and Serini isn't as of now. But that's beside the point. Acknowledging that they were wrong, feeling guilt &c. makes V relatable. Once Serini will show a more healthy attitude than "I'm smarter than you and everyone dumb children" she'll be relatable as well, but I have difficulty sympathizing with smug jerks.

I guess my difference is that I don't really need characters to be likeable or relatable if they're compelling. Serini's highly competent and has good reasons for why she's doing what she's doing, and that makes her interesting to me.

But that might be besides the point. The point might be that even "smug jerk," I think, is a matter of perception; as Peelee pointed out, the Order (particularly Roy and Vaarsuvius) can be smug jerks, but readers like them more and spend more time with them, so they're more inclined to give the Order a pass on that behavior. They're certainly less inclined to give someone who's opposing the Order a pass on that behavior. And that double standard-- and your comment about V feeling bad about Familicide-- just reflects my earlier comment regarding judging people for their actions, instead of how they feel about those actions afterward, or whether we like them enough previously to give them a pass for harmful actions.

Maybe I just don't find Serini to be a smug jerk. Maybe I relate to being frustrated with well-meaning incompetence. I'm not really sure. Given her goals here, I would honestly find it odd if she was nice and polite.

Are you able to be more specific here. Who has said that what Serini did was worse than anything the Order has done?

To use the V famliacide example, most people would agree it was an awful thing to do. I think most people would agree that lots of things members of the Order have done are either wrong, or not a good idea (even based on what they knew). It seems to me that the pass is being given by the people who are vehemently denying that Serini is making a mistake (based on what she knows).

Is there an example that you are thinking of?

No, I don't have an example of anyone explicitly saying that what Serini is doing is worse than Famlicide. But I do think the attitudes towards her from her critics are reflective of her being judged more harshly than the Order has been or would be judged for similar actions.

[Liquor Box]

No, I don't have an example of anyone explicitly saying that what Serini is doing is worse than Famlicide. But I do think the attitudes towards her from her critics are reflective of her being judged more harshly than the Order has been or would be judged for similar actions.

I wasn't asking for an example of that in particular. Just any example of the "similar actions" where Serini is being judges more harshly than the Order.

[Metastachydium]

I guess my difference is that I don't really need characters to be likeable or relatable if they're compelling. Serini's highly competent and has good reasons for why she's doing what she's doing, and that makes her interesting to me.

Maybe I have difficulty finding a character whose smugness annoys me not only unrelatable but also less than compelling? And it's not just about Serini. See my comment on Eugene.

But that might be besides the point. The point might be that even "smug jerk," I think, is a matter of perception; as Peelee pointed out, the Order (particularly Roy and Vaarsuvius) can be smug jerks,

That's not what readers like them for, I'd assume.

but readers like them more and spend more time with them

That's of particular importance here. We see them being jerks and we see them being not jerks. Like I said a couple of times, I'd probably like Serini a lot more if she wasn't as smug as she is in pretty much all her scenes thus far.

Maybe I just don't find Serini to be a smug jerk.

That's on you.

Maybe I relate to being frustrated with well-meaning incompetence.

How 'bout well-meaning questionable competence (v. Serini)?

I'm not really sure. Given her goals here, I would honestly find it odd if she was nice and polite.

Personally, I tend to find polite antagonists more compelling than smug antagonists, and what I like more about the latter is them getting punched in their smug face.

[zinycor]

I don't understand... Do people only want likeable characters?

[Metastachydium]

I don't understand... Do people only want likeable characters?

That's an interesting concept, in fact, but what I mean is that no one should expect me to like a character whom I don't find likeable.

[Oromin]

It fizzled when it was exposed to air and stone. Honestly, that should narrow it down. Most acids shouldn't affect most stones, and I'm pretty sure green slime doesn't either.

Fizzing on contact with air indicates either dissolved gas (like soda) or a volatile liquid (any number of organics). Fizzing on contact with the stone suggests a reaction producing gas (all sorts of possibilities). If this was real life the biggest hint would be the color. Very very few liquids are green. I'll leave the D&D speculation to the experts cause I don't know that stuff. I'm going to imagine it's Marble's reagent :)

[Metastachydium]

Very very few liquids are green. I'll leave the D&D speculation to the experts cause I don't know that stuff. I'm going to imagine it's Marble's reagent :)

Case closed! All acid is Marble's reagent!

[Hardcore]

I thought it was just tanglefoot vial

[danielxcutter]

First of all you mean tanglefoot bags. And judging by how different they are from what Miko used… nah.

[Shining Wrath]

She's sure acting like she has perfect knowledge...



The alternative is letting her get away to regroup, and then having her pop out out of a corner again with more infinite-DC sleep darts. It sucks, but "chase the rogue" is probably the better option.

Chasing her results in something bad ... what's that phrase again ... oh, yeah, "Split the Party". Commonly preceded by "Don't" in proverb. She's got a one round of running lead, in a dungeon she knows the layout of and the party doesn't, and which is populated with her allies of unknown lethality. A beholder is not a minor threat to 3 15th-ish level adventurers, and there's no proof she doesn't have another one. Or 5. Frankly, Serini by herself with a couple of meat shields to balance out the action economy might be able to take them.

He's talking about Belkar "Idumpedmywisdomscore" Bitterleaf there. And I'm absolutely certain you didn't miss that the strip's about how "[h]is intuition and intellect are in agreement, yet [he] still remains conflicted."



I'm not sure there's an actual disagreement between you and me, then.



[Shrugs.] I mean, she knew more about how Soon's Gate was destroyed than she had any right to. Plus what Psyren said.

Meta-wise, I think that Serini has to eventually ally with the Party, at least to the extent of letting them move forward with their plan to destroy Xykon. That means some sort of communication between them. Sunny may be the intermediary. Or, being a rogue, she may spy / scry on them, hear them talking when they don't know she's there, and realize that they have some points on their side.

So, new question. What was in the vial that Serini threw?

It appears to me to be ooze-like, not merely acid. I agree with those who suggest a vial of green slime. Which would slow the party down without actually killing anyone - it would destroy a dagger or two scraping it off, though.

[Dewin Dwl]

... a sufficiently prepared Skillmonkey can replicate or counter with WBL and UMD. In short: she's playing an effective Rogue.

My brain parses those initials as "work-based learning" and "universal media drive" (á la Playstation Portable). I presume that I'm wrong on both counts...

[danielxcutter]

My brain parses those initials as "work-based learning" and "universal media drive" (á la Playstation Portable). I presume that I'm wrong on both counts...

Wealth By Level(how much gold and resources you’re expected to have at each level) and Use Magic Device(activate magical items like scrolls even though you don’t meet the requirements to do it normally).

[KorvinStarmast]

She carries a golf bag's worth of wands and potions for those times she's not backed up by a party wizard or cleric.

As a golfer and a D&D player, and one who has played a goodly number of rogues, I love what you did there.

"Epic-level" isn't just a stat block, after all. It's decades of adventuring experience which have kept her alive this long.

Yep.

Give Belkar a moment with those knives. How else do you think he's going to peel that lurker off V?

That's my guess also.

And I think part of that bias is that Serini ought to be fundamentally subservient to them-- in the narrative, or in their plans to stop Xykon, or in some other way.

That's a stance I can't get behind. (See the point made yet again, by pendell this time, about an adventuring career ending up as epic.
At some point, Giant needs to have Serini grimace and tell V something like "Don't try to tell Granny Toormuck how to suck eggs!"

I don't understand... Do people only want likeable characters?

Tension is a thing in stories. Although, if people only want likeable characters, I guess Miko was the perfect case of hate-her-out-of-hand. On second thought, let's not have a Miko digression.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think discussing the question "is Serini a good person?" is a red hearing and distraction if the question is "is she a good character?".

I think the real question is how a flawed person makes a good character, and how that is or isn't happening in this case.

Maybe it doesn't chew, but swallows whole if possible (like a gator) or maybe just gums on its prey and the teeth help prevent escape.

The fangs aren't positioned for that either.

As you can see it the last panel the fangs are on the other side of the lurker's body from V. They're also fangs rather than chewing teeth.

Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

Well, limestone in at least one dimension.

Very very few liquids are green.

Acid is always green to chartreuse in campy fiction.

My guess is this comes from chlorine gas which is green and scary.

[Carl]

That's an interesting concept, in fact, but what I mean is that no one should expect me to like a character whom I don't find likeable.

And this is the key disconnect here thats going on i think. Some people can like a character for reasons unrelated to how likeable they are as a person. it's one of those common dissconnects that can take some discussion before it becomes obvious that it's the issue in play, and i think thats whats been happening here.

[The MunchKING]

Not only that. It's a baby lurker above that hasn't yet grown to the size of a full 6 foot dungeon square.

So between that and Sunny, I'm wondering if the OotS has managed to wander into the nursery/breeding area for these monsters before they go into the "dungeon" proper.

Also, she wasn't trying to do lethal damage to them previously, just knock them out..

They're high level PCs. Even when cast by a high level wizard, there's like a less than 8% chance anyone would be killed. And all those guys walked off two more acid balls in the next comic too.

[danielxcutter]

Vitriolic Sphere’s damage kinda sucks though.

[Metastachydium]

Vitriolic Sphere’s damage kinda sucks though.

Not necessarily. It's the same deal as Acid Arrow: it deals continuing damage and arguably doesn't allow a Ref for half in the first round.

[danielxcutter]

It was updated in Spell Compendium. The old version was totally busted though.

[Metastachydium]

It was updated in Spell Compendium. The old version was totally busted though.

Die, SpC, die! (I keep forgetting it exists anyway.)

[Psyren]

They're high level PCs. Even when cast by a high level wizard, there's like a less than 8% chance anyone would be killed. And all those guys walked off two more acid balls in the next comic too.

I'm aware of how OotS handles hit points, but my point stands. She was intentionally avoiding lethal damage until now. So my vote is that that vial was either a bottled ooze or some variant of a tanglefoot bag.

Chasing her results in something bad ... what's that phrase again ... oh, yeah, "Split the Party". Commonly preceded by "Don't" in proverb. She's got a one round of running lead, in a dungeon she knows the layout of and the party doesn't, and which is populated with her allies of unknown lethality. A beholder is not a minor threat to 3 15th-ish level adventurers, and there's no proof she doesn't have another one. Or 5. Frankly, Serini by herself with a couple of meat shields to balance out the action economy might be able to take them.

I'm aware of this too, but thanks to Serini's stubbornness, Haley has few good choices here. She knows that "mom" is not going to stop trying to pick them off from the shadows if left alone, and she doesn't have the time it would take to depetrify Durkon. (Elan might have been able to get Roy up however.)

[Oromin]

Acid is always green to chartreuse.

My guess is this comes from chlorine gas which is green and scary.

I always just figured it was because most acids look like water. If it's a bright color then people know it's supposed to be something else. Green being a distinctly unnatural color is probably an upside.

I doubt what the vial actually is has been rigorously defined anyway. It's pretty unlikely it matters. Moreover it could be a wholly fictional substance in which case it does whatever the author wants it to and looks however Rich wants.

Guessing is fun though. I can't guess based on info I don't have, and there isn't really a right answer. So I came up with a plausible answer based on what I know. It's wrong (I'd be surprised if anyone else in this thread knows what Marble's reagent is) but I don't think it's any more wrong than any other guess.

[Seward]

It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.

Once in a past life I was a materials science grad student studying ceramic-metal interfaces.

Ceramics are highly acid resistant as a rule. Rocks vary greatly (my Geology is based on a single survey course taken as a Freshman undergrad) but generally are more reactive (in nature, ceramics are more like inclusions in rocks, rocks aren't usually ceramics, any more than iron ore is the same thing as a bar of iron).

Furthermore a rock found in a cave won't just be a rock. It'll be a dirty rock. Dirt is mostly composed of organics that will in fact react with most acids. The residue would be minerals mostly, although some of them might also react (metallic stuff espcially).

Now D&D geek back on. Green Slimes will eat dead organic matter too and convert it to slime (think wood, leather). It could sizzle on a rock because it is reacting to the dirt on the rock.

I'm sticking to my Green Slime theory :)