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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nor would I. I'm talking about people's reactions on the forums. Roy hurls puerile insults all day long, to the point that even the deva who is letting him into Celestia tells him to knock it off. No problem. Serini does it? How dare she. V talks down to people. Well that's just V being V, and Serini is not V, so what's her excuse? Belkar enacts gross physical violence against those he has under his power. What a lovable scamp! Serini does mild? That bitch!

    I would absolutely call that "getting passes".
    Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard too? I must have missed that strip.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    As long as the next few comics aren't also Serini going "nuh uh you didn't tag me" it'll probably be fine.
    And what's the problem with that? When the order was ambushed and then they went "nuh uh, you didn't tag us" I din't see you complaining. So the order can counter Serini but Serini is not allowed to counter the order...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    A good example of a totally unlikable person who made a likable character: Darth Vader. No one would want Darth as a brother - in - law or a next door neighbor, but I saw trick-or-treaters dressed as him, nearly 40 years after the last movie he appeared in.

    Whether or not you would want to have Serini as a neighbor is different than whether or not she serves The Giant's purposes.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Oromin View Post
    It strongly depends on the particular acid and the particular rock. Ceramic materials, like rocks, are usually pretty resistant, which is why you can usually store acids in a glass bottle. Some rocks are less so. Most notably limestone. Thus I choose to believe this is multidimensional limestone.
    Hydrofluoric acid will dissolve silicate minerals, but it's a very slow process even when the rock is finely powdered and the reaction is done at boiling-water temperatures. It also dissolves glass, still pretty slowly. It's usually stored in plastic bottles, though HF gas is sometimes stored in cylinders made of alloys chosen to be unreactive with it. Since HF also causes severe chemical burns to flesh, which are painless initially, it has to be handled extremely carefully.

    Once, when I was working for a software company, one of the salesthings came to me and demanded that I come up with a chemical that would make rock dissolve away, so a prospective client could use it for mineral exploration. (No explosions! Environmentally friendly! You're a chemist, right?) I had to explain to him that there was no such thing... an uphill slog, especially as he was expecting to get a million-dollar contract for it. To this day, I haven't the faintest idea why he -- doing sales for a software company -- had gotten into that nonsense. When the company folded a year or so later, he was peeved that all of the other salespeople had gotten commissions on their final paycheques, but he hadn't. It was because in his entire time with the company, he hadn't made a single sale. It's my speculation that he'd actually cost the company a few contracts, by showing up at client meetings and saying such blindingly stupid things that he scared the clients away. Saying blindingly stupid things was kind of his thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oromin View Post
    Fizzing on contact with air indicates either dissolved gas (like soda) or a volatile liquid (any number of organics). Fizzing on contact with the stone suggests a reaction producing gas (all sorts of possibilities). If this was real life the biggest hint would be the color. Very very few liquids are green. I'll leave the D&D speculation to the experts cause I don't know that stuff. I'm going to imagine it's Marble's reagent :)
    I've a vague recollection of using green chromium oxide (Cr2O3) dissolved in concentrated sulfuric acid for some tough glassware-cleaning jobs.

    I'm not convinced that what we're seeing in the strip represents a reaction, rather than the liquid fuming or just being noxious in an aerosol kind of way -- spores, or something like that. It could even be a harmless attractant of some kind, intended to get the attention of the next few monster "traps".

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Oromin View Post
    I always just figured it was because most acids look like water. If it's a bright color then people know it's supposed to be something else. Green being a distinctly unnatural color is probably an upside.
    Hey! Green is as natural a colour as it gets.

    (I'd be surprised if anyone else in this thread knows what Marble's reagent is)
    Isn't it just watered-up hydrocloric acid with some copper salt tossed in?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    You know, if this is a cave with stalactites and stalagmites, then presumably the stone is all limestone. If not then Serini has a LOT of ropers and piercers. Plus you know... that business with the Roc. We dont need a repeat of that.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm aware of this too, but thanks to Serini's stubbornness, Haley has few good choices here. She knows that "mom" is not going to stop trying to pick them off from the shadows if left alone, and she doesn't have the time it would take to depetrify Durkon. (Elan might have been able to get Roy up however.)
    I'm guessing that Elan's next move will be to ask Sunny if it's okay if he just stands over with his friends and sings a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oromin View Post
    (I'd be surprised if anyone else in this thread knows what Marble's reagent is)
    I've used a number of kinds of etchant, but I had to look that one up. Even if I'd encountered it before, I'm terrible at associating reactions with names. I did really well in most aspects of organic chem, but that was always my big blocker.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, I already agreed that she is being quite smug.

    That aside, saying that is like saying the Order acted like they had perfect knowledge when they blew up Girard's Gate. Which, again, puts both sides on pretty equal footing (barring the smugness).

    And yet he still took the vampire to the Godsmoot. Still had no restrictions on the vampire. Still gave the vampire completely free reign to do whatever he wanted to do.

    That conflicted feeling counted for jack all - when a decision had to be made, Roy went with what he thought was right. Exactly as Serini is doing. The only two differences are that she is smug about it, and a shocking amount of the readership has a remarkable amount of animosity for her.
    I don't think you should take smugness out of consideration if said smugness actively hampers one's ability to reason. I mean, the Order specifically didn't act like they knew everything before destroying the Girard gate, they discussed how they don't know enough and don't have time to get more information and voted on how to act. Serini on the other hand had weeks to get info, was offered the info multiple times (latest as recently as several strips ago), but refused all the info and chose to act like she knows the order when she in fact does not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    But she can't know they are the protagonists of this story.
    And again, I still think the Order actions will lead to de destruction of this world.
    Why can't she? Tarquin knew it right away. Of course, he's much more genre savvy than your average NPC, but we're still canonically in a self-aware parody stick figure comic, she could've figured that out. I'm not holding it against her that she didn't, but she certainly could.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinycor View Post
    Am just very surprised at the reception Serini has had... I for one like her, she says what she wants, solves problems by her own hands and is like a mix of Hailey + Belkar.

    Very cool in my book.
    I mean, she specifically doesn't solve problems with her own hands, she solves it with others' hands (and paws and tentacles and pseudopods and eyes).

    To that point -- we only saw Serini's competence when she successfully devised and managed the construction of the dungeon around this gate, and when she took out the paladins. She herself had only hit people in the Order four times (2 darts at Roy, 1 bolt at V, a potpourri at Belkar) out of her 15+ attacks, she got her ass handed to her by both Xykon and Haley, she babbled and blew her invisibility, it seems she severely overestimated her power vs the Order's power, she refused the information (about the Godsmoot) that is crucial to her own stated goal of protecting the world, and of course she endangered the whole world by not keeping the super secret info on the gates' location in a safe place or destroying the info altogether, but instead carrying in with her in a diary, which led Xykon to all the gates after Lirian's

    Do we even know if she's an epic rogue, or do people just assume she's one because her teammates are epic?
    For someone with that amount of sass she certainly doesn't show enough to back it up, I think. If she was as cool as she says she is, she would've captured the Order by now.

    And as far as likable/unlikable character discourse goes, Xykon is the most unrepentantly depraved in the comic, but to me still somehow more likeable as a character than Serini.
    And maybe that goes to another point I wanted to make. Multiple people earlier said that she doesn't make the Order look incompetent, but for one reason I disagree with it. She indeed doesn't make them look incompetent in a fight, but she makes them look incompetent in their job. The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow

    And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    A good example of a totally unlikable person who made a likable character: Darth Vader. No one would want Darth as a brother - in - law or a next door neighbor, but I saw trick-or-treaters dressed as him, nearly 40 years after the last movie he appeared in.

    Whether or not you would want to have Serini as a neighbor is different than whether or not she serves The Giant's purposes.
    But when several monsters like Serini one should think she is a totally likable person, not just character. One definetly shouldn't judge her by how she is talking to intruders while fighting them.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    A good example of a totally unlikable person who made a likable character: Darth Vader. No one would want Darth as a brother - in - law or a next door neighbor, but I saw trick-or-treaters dressed as him, nearly 40 years after the last movie he appeared in.
    Rogue One was nearly forty years ago?!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    I have not seen that one, I was going from Return of the Jedi. I think A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and RotJ have far more to do with Darth's popularity than Rogue One.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elecampane View Post
    And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)
    Oh my god, yes, exactly this. That was carthartic to read, thank you.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard too? I must have missed that strip.
    I have no idea what the point that you're making is supposed to be here.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-11-02 at 03:02 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I have not seen that one, I was going from Return of the Jedi.
    Revenge of the Sith was nearly forty years ago?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I think A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and RotJ have far more to do with Darth's popularity than Rogue One.
    Heh, fair.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard too? I must have missed that strip.
    I must assume his job title is "summoner".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Revenge of the Sith was nearly forty years ago?!


    Heh, fair.
    Anakin Skywalker is not Darth Vader, and a 30 second appearance at the end of RotS to scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" is also not the reason people show up on my porch dressed as Darth carrying a red light saber.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elecampane View Post
    For someone with that amount of sass she certainly doesn't show enough to back it up, I think. If she was as cool as she says she is, she would've captured the Order by now.
    Point of order: Serini's self-assessment, as far as I can tell from in-comic dialogue, is "an old lady with a blowgun"

    The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow
    I mean, sure, if all you care about is plot development. I've been enjoying the jokes, the character details, the staging, and the tactics of these past months.

    People complained when Durkon & Roy talked about goblins for two pages recently. But that will be an absolute blip on the radar in the context of a full book. Same thing here. Those are the terms you accept when you read an active webcomic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    I think A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and RotJ have far more to do with Darth's popularity than Rogue One.
    Sure, but have you seen the Rogue One scene? It can't be hurting his popularity either

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I have no idea what the point that you're making is supposed to be here.
    That the Order "got a pass" because they're insulting people who unequivocally deserve it. Serini is not, she's just being ornery.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That the Order "got a pass" because they're insulting people who unequivocally deserve it. Serini is not, she's just being ornery.
    The Order blew up two Gates and then spammed messages to the last Gate saying "HEY. HEY. HEY. HEY. PICK UP. HEY."

    Insults are hardly grievous wounds. I'd say they deserve it. Just as Serini deserves what the Order is dishing out.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Order blew up two Gates and then spammed messages to the last Gate saying "HEY. HEY. HEY. HEY. PICK UP. HEY."

    Insults are hardly grievous wounds. I'd say they deserve it. Just as Serini deserves what the Order is dishing out.
    I for one don't think that Serini has been unduly insulting to the Order.

    She was however needlessly insulting to the paladins, who I don't think had done anything to deserve it. I don't think it would stand out that so much if it were in combat, where insulting banter is expected. But it happened after they were her helpless prisoners. Taunting prisoners isn't really a big deal, but it just seems needlessly antagonistic, like taunting an animal.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That the Order "got a pass" because they're insulting people who unequivocally deserve it. Serini is not, she's just being ornery.
    The Order is composed of 33.33% mass-murderers, they deserve some of it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Boy howdy, I think you guys are really blowing this whole "negative reader opinion of Serini" out of proportion here. People think different things about characters. Opinions are inherently subjective. We have an entire range of absolute hatred to absolute love we can feel for a fictional character and that's, of course, going to be related to how we feel about other aspects of the story. Maybe we've gotten attached to the regular crew of characters and have learned to laugh at or overlook their faults, but are less forgiving of those same faults in new characters. That's fine. Totally normal. It took a really long time before I could even slightly enjoy Belkar's screen time, and that's partly because I've gotten used to him and he's grown on me -- if a new, Belkar-like character popped up, I'd find them incredibly unfunny and annoying. It sounds like some of you are trying to turn "I don't particular enjoy it when this character has screen time" to "complex societal issues are driving my intense hatred for this character and everything they stand for" or even "disliking this character is irrational and that must be fixed".


    Actually, anyone remember watching Recess as a kid? Remember the episode where the main character (TJ?) hears that the new kid doesn't like him, so he spends the entire episode trying to charm him and win him over? He does all sorts of cool stuff to try to impress him, only for the new kid to basically go "sorry dude, I just don't mesh with you, no hard feelings"? I feel like this "negative reader opinion of Serini" is at about that level. It just ain't that deep, man.


    I like Serini. I think she's adding a lot of excitement to the plot and I just think she's fun. I didn't really like that elf chick with the tiger (can't remember her name). I just didn't really mesh with her. And this is all just from a character perspective, as in, who I find enjoyable to read about. If I had to go into who I would actually enjoy the company of in RL, I think we might be limited to Durkon, his mom, and Celia!


    Hearing people take personal opinions about a character's likability so seriously is so darn hilarious to me right now, though. I've been rereading some manga I loved as a kid and looking at old message boards about it, and my favorite character (from any of the author's works!) is hands-down the most universally despised character in the entire series. Like, it's not even a competition. They just outright wrote him out of the anime. I guess I just mesh with him and other people don't. Some people think Friends is funny. Some people like the taste of bacon. I can't say I understand those people, but hey, tastes aren't rational, so I'm content to just shrug and laugh when people have different preferences.
    Last edited by Mariele; 2021-11-02 at 06:12 PM.
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    people on this forum seeing the no politics sign: huh i wonder what that's for, can't be me, anyways time to compare the comic to politics again-
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's on you.
    I mean... yeah? Just like it's on you for wanting Serini to get punched in the face for having a reasonable point of view that opposes the Order? I don't have any problems with my own position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    And this is the key disconnect here thats going on i think. Some people can like a character for reasons unrelated to how likeable they are as a person. it's one of those common dissconnects that can take some discussion before it becomes obvious that it's the issue in play, and i think thats whats been happening here.
    I do not get the "likeability" thing at all. What does that mean? Nice? Some of the worst things I've seen happen to stories (don't get me started on the later seasons of Parks and Recreation) were when they started buying into their characters being nice (even when they weren't) and thus deserved whatever they wanted, that they were more Special than everyone else in the story's universe.

    In drama, different people have different moralities, and that leads them to different decisions, and those moralities and decisions conflict and escalate until they reach a conclusion. Right now, the Order's moral priority is "stop Xykon and enlist Redcloak to seal the Gates"; Serini's is "protect this Gate at all costs." They are coming into conflict. That's good drama to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    But when several monsters like Serini one should think she is a totally likable person, not just character. One definetly shouldn't judge her by how she is talking to intruders while fighting them.
    Ah, but those intruders are the Special People of the story, and therefore deserving of what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard too? I must have missed that strip.
    Are you trying to pretend Roy and V don't regularly insult their own teammates? Or that Roy isn't so arrogant he thinks he knows what's going on better than an actual Deva?

    Quote Originally Posted by elecampane View Post
    And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)
    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    Oh my god, yes, exactly this. That was carthartic to read, thank you.
    I find Serini's approach reasonable (the refusal to communicate with the Order has been covered to death already), and the "undeserved" attitude-- an Epic Rogue who built and has been for decades guarding what is now the last Gate upholding reality thinks she knows best how to maintain it is "undeserved"?-- really just seems like another way to say "uppity" to me.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Rogue One was nearly forty years ago?!
    I will make a controversial statement: that Vader appearance is Vader as a spectacle, not Vader as a character. Does he even have any lines? He’a there for the “Oh ****” factor.

    Darth Vader the tempter, the father, the fallen, is nowhere in sight. So I’d say the point still counts. And yeah kids *might* have dressed up as Vader as a result of that scene but it’s much more likely to be the consequence of nostalgic parents and cultural inertia.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Empiar93 View Post
    I will make a controversial statement: that Vader appearance is Vader as a spectacle, not Vader as a character. Does he even have any lines? He’a there for the “Oh ****” factor.
    That's not really controversial, is it? We all know what fanservice is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elecampane View Post
    I don't think you should take smugness out of consideration if said smugness actively hampers one's ability to reason. I mean, the Order specifically didn't act like they knew everything before destroying the Girard gate, they discussed how they don't know enough and don't have time to get more information and voted on how to act. Serini on the other hand had weeks to get info, was offered the info multiple times (latest as recently as several strips ago), but refused all the info and chose to act like she knows the order when she in fact does not.



    Why can't she? Tarquin knew it right away. Of course, he's much more genre savvy than your average NPC, but we're still canonically in a self-aware parody stick figure comic, she could've figured that out. I'm not holding it against her that she didn't, but she certainly could.


    I mean, she specifically doesn't solve problems with her own hands, she solves it with others' hands (and paws and tentacles and pseudopods and eyes).

    To that point -- we only saw Serini's competence when she successfully devised and managed the construction of the dungeon around this gate, and when she took out the paladins. She herself had only hit people in the Order four times (2 darts at Roy, 1 bolt at V, a potpourri at Belkar) out of her 15+ attacks, she got her ass handed to her by both Xykon and Haley, she babbled and blew her invisibility, it seems she severely overestimated her power vs the Order's power, she refused the information (about the Godsmoot) that is crucial to her own stated goal of protecting the world, and of course she endangered the whole world by not keeping the super secret info on the gates' location in a safe place or destroying the info altogether, but instead carrying in with her in a diary, which led Xykon to all the gates after Lirian's

    Do we even know if she's an epic rogue, or do people just assume she's one because her teammates are epic?
    For someone with that amount of sass she certainly doesn't show enough to back it up, I think. If she was as cool as she says she is, she would've captured the Order by now.

    And as far as likable/unlikable character discourse goes, Xykon is the most unrepentantly depraved in the comic, but to me still somehow more likeable as a character than Serini.
    And maybe that goes to another point I wanted to make. Multiple people earlier said that she doesn't make the Order look incompetent, but for one reason I disagree with it. She indeed doesn't make them look incompetent in a fight, but she makes them look incompetent in their job. The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow

    And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)
    Let me reiterate somthing, despite a gap in the middle she's been involved in the gate situation since before basically anyone else in the comic was even born, (Jullio and Tarquin's team being possibble exceptions), and certainly longer than any other specific individual has been involved in the gates situation. If she thinks she knows more than everyone about the gates situation, i would in the absence of evidence to the contrary be willing to believe her.

    We know there's info she doesn't know, (Godsmoot situation), and there's somthing else she may not know, (Planet in the rifts situation, though i'm not going to write that off as a certainty). But she has no way of knowing this, and for better or worse she's in the position of being the last gates semi-official defender. For better or worse that puts her in the position of having to make a decision, and one piece of wisdom I've allways heard and found sound is: "You can only evaluate your decision on the basis of what you knew at the time". Serreni is at the point where she has to decide on a course of action and based on what she knows and her priorities, (keep the world from being destroyed), it's not a bad decision at all. It's not a good one either, but she's out of good choices at this point.

    Now yes there's vital information she doesn't know, but she also doesn't know she doesn't know, and she's a high level rouge, she's used to assuming that someone may be trying to manipulate her, and at this point no one has actually indicated to ehr they might have any information she doesn't already have. The Paladins and the Order both wanting to talk it out is expected. She's never claimed they don't honestly want stop what they see as a potentiol threat to the gates. Trying to talk it out and recruit her is expected behaviour for them.

    There's also the question of what she knows. There's clearly gaps in her knowledge, for all we know she's assessing the orders chances on the assumption that the MitD will help Xykon, depending on how powerful he really is it's quite probable that her assesment is acurratte. We know he probably won't fight the order. But she doesn't necessarily know that, even his extra X's painted on doors could be just him being a ditz from her PoV.


    As far as her competency. She's a rouge. Even Epic level rouges don't excel at any one single thing. They're strength is their sheer adaptability, and a lot of that applies outside of direct "punch the enemy in the face" situations. So far she's shown that in spades. Hell we don't even know that her current idea isn't just a plan C rather than an outright retreat. In which case the orders really in trouble TBH. If it wasn't for the fact that i'm not convinced Sunny will actual disable Elan and Minnrah on his own imitative i'd say she's doing pretty well with 4/7th's of the order disabled and one more temporarily out of it. So far only Elan and Haley have done anything meaningful vs her and her plans. Thats not bad when the party includes 2 high level primary spell-casters and a pair of high level strong martial types.

    Heck, Belkar is going to be completely out of it whilst he free's V. Depending on how long that takes Serreni could easily tap herself with another wand of invisibility and then proceed to dart Haley and Belkar before V gets free. At that point she's pretty much won unless Elan's managed to get the rest of the order back on their feet in that time.
    Last edited by Carl; 2021-11-02 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's not really controversial, is it? We all know what fanservice is.
    Point of order: J. J. Abrams clearly doesn't, yet somehow still tried to make movies based 100% on what he thinks it is.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The Order is composed of 33.33% mass-murderers, they deserve some of it.
    My point was that if Serini were hurling insults at Eugene I doubt there would be any objections here. (I certainly wouldn't.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Insults are hardly grievous wounds.
    I didn't say they were, but you were asking why some people might not find her crotchety attitude endearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    I think Serini's actions so far have been reasonable. Sure, she's been a bit of a jerk, but we've yet to see her in a situation where she's having a normal conversation.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Let me reiterate somthing, despite a gap in the middle she's been involved in the gate situation since before basically anyone else in the comic was even born, (Jullio and Tarquin's team being possibble exceptions), and certainly longer than any other specific individual has been involved in the gates situation. If she thinks she knows more than everyone about the gates situation, i would in the absence of evidence to the contrary be willing to believe her.

    We know there's info she doesn't know, (Godsmoot situation), and there's somthing else she may not know, (Planet in the rifts situation, though i'm not going to write that off as a certainty). But she has no way of knowing this, and for better or worse she's in the position of being the last gates semi-official defender. For better or worse that puts her in the position of having to make a decision, and one piece of wisdom I've allways heard and found sound is: "You can only evaluate your decision on the basis of what you knew at the time". Serreni is at the point where she has to decide on a course of action and based on what she knows and her priorities, (keep the world from being destroyed), it's not a bad decision at all. It's not a good one either, but she's out of good choices at this point.

    Now yes there's vital information she doesn't know, but she also doesn't know she doesn't know, and she's a high level rouge, she's used to assuming that someone may be trying to manipulate her, and at this point no one has actually indicated to ehr they might have any information she doesn't already have. The Paladins and the Order both wanting to talk it out is expected. She's never claimed they don't honestly want stop what they see as a potentiol threat to the gates. Trying to talk it out and recruit her is expected behaviour for them.

    There's also the question of what she knows. There's clearly gaps in her knowledge, for all we know she's assessing the orders chances on the assumption that the MitD will help Xykon, depending on how powerful he really is it's quite probable that her assesment is acurratte. We know he probably won't fight the order. But she doesn't necessarily know that, even his extra X's painted on doors could be just him being a ditz from her PoV.
    To a large extent I think you are right that we should evaluate her on what she knows. There are a couple of exceptions though. She can be fairly criticised for things she doesn't know but which ought to be obvious to her (for example that Xykon getting the gate is likely to result in its destruction) or things she doesn't know but which she could have found and she should have tried (an obvious example is whether she should have spoken to the Order and found out a whole lot more).

    But even on the basis of what she knew (not taking into account what she might have found out if she spoke to the Order), I think there's good reason to believe that her decision making is poor here.

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