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2021-11-02, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Oh, you mean Serini was insulting Eugene Greenhilt and the random-rude-lawyer-wizard too? I must have missed that strip.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2021-11-02, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-11-02, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
A good example of a totally unlikable person who made a likable character: Darth Vader. No one would want Darth as a brother - in - law or a next door neighbor, but I saw trick-or-treaters dressed as him, nearly 40 years after the last movie he appeared in.
Whether or not you would want to have Serini as a neighbor is different than whether or not she serves The Giant's purposes.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2021-11-02, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Hydrofluoric acid will dissolve silicate minerals, but it's a very slow process even when the rock is finely powdered and the reaction is done at boiling-water temperatures. It also dissolves glass, still pretty slowly. It's usually stored in plastic bottles, though HF gas is sometimes stored in cylinders made of alloys chosen to be unreactive with it. Since HF also causes severe chemical burns to flesh, which are painless initially, it has to be handled extremely carefully.
Once, when I was working for a software company, one of the salesthings came to me and demanded that I come up with a chemical that would make rock dissolve away, so a prospective client could use it for mineral exploration. (No explosions! Environmentally friendly! You're a chemist, right?) I had to explain to him that there was no such thing... an uphill slog, especially as he was expecting to get a million-dollar contract for it. To this day, I haven't the faintest idea why he -- doing sales for a software company -- had gotten into that nonsense. When the company folded a year or so later, he was peeved that all of the other salespeople had gotten commissions on their final paycheques, but he hadn't. It was because in his entire time with the company, he hadn't made a single sale. It's my speculation that he'd actually cost the company a few contracts, by showing up at client meetings and saying such blindingly stupid things that he scared the clients away. Saying blindingly stupid things was kind of his thing.
I've a vague recollection of using green chromium oxide (Cr2O3) dissolved in concentrated sulfuric acid for some tough glassware-cleaning jobs.
I'm not convinced that what we're seeing in the strip represents a reaction, rather than the liquid fuming or just being noxious in an aerosol kind of way -- spores, or something like that. It could even be a harmless attractant of some kind, intended to get the attention of the next few monster "traps".
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2021-11-02, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2021-11-02, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
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- A Shallow Grave
Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
You know, if this is a cave with stalactites and stalagmites, then presumably the stone is all limestone. If not then Serini has a LOT of ropers and piercers. Plus you know... that business with the Roc. We dont need a repeat of that.
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2021-11-02, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
I'm guessing that Elan's next move will be to ask Sunny if it's okay if he just stands over with his friends and sings a bit.
I've used a number of kinds of etchant, but I had to look that one up. Even if I'd encountered it before, I'm terrible at associating reactions with names. I did really well in most aspects of organic chem, but that was always my big blocker.
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2021-11-02, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think you should take smugness out of consideration if said smugness actively hampers one's ability to reason. I mean, the Order specifically didn't act like they knew everything before destroying the Girard gate, they discussed how they don't know enough and don't have time to get more information and voted on how to act. Serini on the other hand had weeks to get info, was offered the info multiple times (latest as recently as several strips ago), but refused all the info and chose to act like she knows the order when she in fact does not.
Why can't she? Tarquin knew it right away. Of course, he's much more genre savvy than your average NPC, but we're still canonically in a self-aware parody stick figure comic, she could've figured that out. I'm not holding it against her that she didn't, but she certainly could.
I mean, she specifically doesn't solve problems with her own hands, she solves it with others' hands (and paws and tentacles and pseudopods and eyes).
To that point -- we only saw Serini's competence when she successfully devised and managed the construction of the dungeon around this gate, and when she took out the paladins. She herself had only hit people in the Order four times (2 darts at Roy, 1 bolt at V, a potpourri at Belkar) out of her 15+ attacks, she got her ass handed to her by both Xykon and Haley, she babbled and blew her invisibility, it seems she severely overestimated her power vs the Order's power, she refused the information (about the Godsmoot) that is crucial to her own stated goal of protecting the world, and of course she endangered the whole world by not keeping the super secret info on the gates' location in a safe place or destroying the info altogether, but instead carrying in with her in a diary, which led Xykon to all the gates after Lirian's
Do we even know if she's an epic rogue, or do people just assume she's one because her teammates are epic?
For someone with that amount of sass she certainly doesn't show enough to back it up, I think. If she was as cool as she says she is, she would've captured the Order by now.
And as far as likable/unlikable character discourse goes, Xykon is the most unrepentantly depraved in the comic, but to me still somehow more likeable as a character than Serini.
And maybe that goes to another point I wanted to make. Multiple people earlier said that she doesn't make the Order look incompetent, but for one reason I disagree with it. She indeed doesn't make them look incompetent in a fight, but she makes them look incompetent in their job. The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow
And as for people being surprised at negative reception she gets, I think it's partially because when someone criticizes her, a number of people come to her defense, and the defense is often whataboutism (like "why didn't you criticize Roy or V about the similar issue") or misinterpretation of the criticism (like claims that "people say Serini should submit to the Order"), which then leads to critics re-iterating their arguments and leads to the illusion that there's a mountain of Serini hate, when in reality it's chiefly just a couple of issues many people have with her (mostly, I think, her toxic and undeserved attitude and her refusal to communicate, that is both unreasonable and counterproductive for her own goals)
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2021-11-02, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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2021-11-02, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-11-02, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
I have not seen that one, I was going from Return of the Jedi. I think A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and RotJ have far more to do with Darth's popularity than Rogue One.
This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2021-11-02, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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2021-11-02, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Peelee; 2021-11-02 at 03:02 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-11-02, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-11-02, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2021-11-02, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2021-11-02, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Point of order: Serini's self-assessment, as far as I can tell from in-comic dialogue, is "an old lady with a blowgun"
The protagonist's job is to move the story forward and to achieve at least some goals. Currently her attempt to stall the Order had taken up four and a half (real-life) months, and still counting. Arguably, nothing of real consequence yet happened besides the Order meeting her and Sunny, and spending some spells. If it were a game, players would be gnashing their teeth by now. As it's a web comic, it just feels very slow
People complained when Durkon & Roy talked about goblins for two pages recently. But that will be an absolute blip on the radar in the context of a full book. Same thing here. Those are the terms you accept when you read an active webcomic.
Sure, but have you seen the Rogue One scene? It can't be hurting his popularity either
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2021-11-02, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2021-11-02, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-11-02, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
I for one don't think that Serini has been unduly insulting to the Order.
She was however needlessly insulting to the paladins, who I don't think had done anything to deserve it. I don't think it would stand out that so much if it were in combat, where insulting banter is expected. But it happened after they were her helpless prisoners. Taunting prisoners isn't really a big deal, but it just seems needlessly antagonistic, like taunting an animal.
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2021-11-02, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-11-02, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Boy howdy, I think you guys are really blowing this whole "negative reader opinion of Serini" out of proportion here. People think different things about characters. Opinions are inherently subjective. We have an entire range of absolute hatred to absolute love we can feel for a fictional character and that's, of course, going to be related to how we feel about other aspects of the story. Maybe we've gotten attached to the regular crew of characters and have learned to laugh at or overlook their faults, but are less forgiving of those same faults in new characters. That's fine. Totally normal. It took a really long time before I could even slightly enjoy Belkar's screen time, and that's partly because I've gotten used to him and he's grown on me -- if a new, Belkar-like character popped up, I'd find them incredibly unfunny and annoying. It sounds like some of you are trying to turn "I don't particular enjoy it when this character has screen time" to "complex societal issues are driving my intense hatred for this character and everything they stand for" or even "disliking this character is irrational and that must be fixed".
Actually, anyone remember watching Recess as a kid? Remember the episode where the main character (TJ?) hears that the new kid doesn't like him, so he spends the entire episode trying to charm him and win him over? He does all sorts of cool stuff to try to impress him, only for the new kid to basically go "sorry dude, I just don't mesh with you, no hard feelings"? I feel like this "negative reader opinion of Serini" is at about that level. It just ain't that deep, man.
I like Serini. I think she's adding a lot of excitement to the plot and I just think she's fun. I didn't really like that elf chick with the tiger (can't remember her name). I just didn't really mesh with her. And this is all just from a character perspective, as in, who I find enjoyable to read about. If I had to go into who I would actually enjoy the company of in RL, I think we might be limited to Durkon, his mom, and Celia!
Hearing people take personal opinions about a character's likability so seriously is so darn hilarious to me right now, though. I've been rereading some manga I loved as a kid and looking at old message boards about it, and my favorite character (from any of the author's works!) is hands-down the most universally despised character in the entire series. Like, it's not even a competition. They just outright wrote him out of the anime. I guess I just mesh with him and other people don't. Some people think Friends is funny. Some people like the taste of bacon. I can't say I understand those people, but hey, tastes aren't rational, so I'm content to just shrug and laugh when people have different preferences.
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2021-11-02, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
I mean... yeah? Just like it's on you for wanting Serini to get punched in the face for having a reasonable point of view that opposes the Order? I don't have any problems with my own position.
I do not get the "likeability" thing at all. What does that mean? Nice? Some of the worst things I've seen happen to stories (don't get me started on the later seasons of Parks and Recreation) were when they started buying into their characters being nice (even when they weren't) and thus deserved whatever they wanted, that they were more Special than everyone else in the story's universe.
In drama, different people have different moralities, and that leads them to different decisions, and those moralities and decisions conflict and escalate until they reach a conclusion. Right now, the Order's moral priority is "stop Xykon and enlist Redcloak to seal the Gates"; Serini's is "protect this Gate at all costs." They are coming into conflict. That's good drama to me.
Ah, but those intruders are the Special People of the story, and therefore deserving of what they want.
Are you trying to pretend Roy and V don't regularly insult their own teammates? Or that Roy isn't so arrogant he thinks he knows what's going on better than an actual Deva?
I find Serini's approach reasonable (the refusal to communicate with the Order has been covered to death already), and the "undeserved" attitude-- an Epic Rogue who built and has been for decades guarding what is now the last Gate upholding reality thinks she knows best how to maintain it is "undeserved"?-- really just seems like another way to say "uppity" to me.
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2021-11-02, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
I will make a controversial statement: that Vader appearance is Vader as a spectacle, not Vader as a character. Does he even have any lines? He’a there for the “Oh ****” factor.
Darth Vader the tempter, the father, the fallen, is nowhere in sight. So I’d say the point still counts. And yeah kids *might* have dressed up as Vader as a result of that scene but it’s much more likely to be the consequence of nostalgic parents and cultural inertia.
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2021-11-02, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-11-02, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Let me reiterate somthing, despite a gap in the middle she's been involved in the gate situation since before basically anyone else in the comic was even born, (Jullio and Tarquin's team being possibble exceptions), and certainly longer than any other specific individual has been involved in the gates situation. If she thinks she knows more than everyone about the gates situation, i would in the absence of evidence to the contrary be willing to believe her.
We know there's info she doesn't know, (Godsmoot situation), and there's somthing else she may not know, (Planet in the rifts situation, though i'm not going to write that off as a certainty). But she has no way of knowing this, and for better or worse she's in the position of being the last gates semi-official defender. For better or worse that puts her in the position of having to make a decision, and one piece of wisdom I've allways heard and found sound is: "You can only evaluate your decision on the basis of what you knew at the time". Serreni is at the point where she has to decide on a course of action and based on what she knows and her priorities, (keep the world from being destroyed), it's not a bad decision at all. It's not a good one either, but she's out of good choices at this point.
Now yes there's vital information she doesn't know, but she also doesn't know she doesn't know, and she's a high level rouge, she's used to assuming that someone may be trying to manipulate her, and at this point no one has actually indicated to ehr they might have any information she doesn't already have. The Paladins and the Order both wanting to talk it out is expected. She's never claimed they don't honestly want stop what they see as a potentiol threat to the gates. Trying to talk it out and recruit her is expected behaviour for them.
There's also the question of what she knows. There's clearly gaps in her knowledge, for all we know she's assessing the orders chances on the assumption that the MitD will help Xykon, depending on how powerful he really is it's quite probable that her assesment is acurratte. We know he probably won't fight the order. But she doesn't necessarily know that, even his extra X's painted on doors could be just him being a ditz from her PoV.
As far as her competency. She's a rouge. Even Epic level rouges don't excel at any one single thing. They're strength is their sheer adaptability, and a lot of that applies outside of direct "punch the enemy in the face" situations. So far she's shown that in spades. Hell we don't even know that her current idea isn't just a plan C rather than an outright retreat. In which case the orders really in trouble TBH. If it wasn't for the fact that i'm not convinced Sunny will actual disable Elan and Minnrah on his own imitative i'd say she's doing pretty well with 4/7th's of the order disabled and one more temporarily out of it. So far only Elan and Haley have done anything meaningful vs her and her plans. Thats not bad when the party includes 2 high level primary spell-casters and a pair of high level strong martial types.
Heck, Belkar is going to be completely out of it whilst he free's V. Depending on how long that takes Serreni could easily tap herself with another wand of invisibility and then proceed to dart Haley and Belkar before V gets free. At that point she's pretty much won unless Elan's managed to get the rest of the order back on their feet in that time.Last edited by Carl; 2021-11-02 at 06:25 PM.
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2021-11-02, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2021-11-02, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2021-11-02, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
I think Serini's actions so far have been reasonable. Sure, she's been a bit of a jerk, but we've yet to see her in a situation where she's having a normal conversation.
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2021-11-02, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread
To a large extent I think you are right that we should evaluate her on what she knows. There are a couple of exceptions though. She can be fairly criticised for things she doesn't know but which ought to be obvious to her (for example that Xykon getting the gate is likely to result in its destruction) or things she doesn't know but which she could have found and she should have tried (an obvious example is whether she should have spoken to the Order and found out a whole lot more).
But even on the basis of what she knew (not taking into account what she might have found out if she spoke to the Order), I think there's good reason to believe that her decision making is poor here.