OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[Kirt]

Yeah, so why does the title say below? It's neither a reference to the actual creature name, nor the situation in-comic.
Sure, it's lurker. It's clearly represented as attacking from above. Hence my confusion as to the title of the strip.

The creature is a lurker above. For the title quip, Rich has inverted expectations by calling it 'lurking below'.
The situation in-comic is that the lurker is hiding on the ceiling of a chamber that is beneath the chamber in which they just fought. Thus it was lurking below where they were before they encountered it.

In #1246, panels 3 and 4, notice that Sunny is shooting the disintegrate beam at an angle to the floor. Thus the passage being created is not a horizontally level tunnel to the chamber alongside this one; rather it is a slide / chute going down and over. In panels 5 and 7-11 you can see the sloping shade lines on the side of the chute to indicate that it is going down, even though we can't see the slope itself from our perspective.

When Haley, V, and Belkar jump into the tunnel, they are not jumping through a level passage, rather they are jumping into a chute and then they fall / slide the rest of the way down it. That is why they have such a hard landing in #1247 (pain faces, impact arrows on Haley's rear, and 'whoooze' sound effect of Belkar sliding).

Since they are now at least one level below where they were at in the previous strip, it is a Lurker below.

[Hurkyl]

My interpretation is that they were lurking below a lurker above. But the interpretation that these monsters were lurking in the lower depths of the dungeon makes sense too.

[elros]

I am trying to decide if the Giant included Belkar and V in this chase because they will have meaningful interaction with Serini, or because their insults supply the jokes for the comic. I have the same question about why Elan and Sunny are together- is it for plot or punchline?
That could also explain why Roy & Durkon, who are two stick-in-the-mud characters, are out of commission. Sometimes humor is more important that drama.

[Carl]

To a large extent I think you are right that we should evaluate her on what she knows. There are a couple of exceptions though. She can be fairly criticised for things she doesn't know but which ought to be obvious to her (for example that Xykon getting the gate is likely to result in its destruction) or things she doesn't know but which she could have found and she should have tried (an obvious example is whether she should have spoken to the Order and found out a whole lot more).

But even on the basis of what she knew (not taking into account what she might have found out if she spoke to the Order), I think there's good reason to believe that her decision making is poor here.

1. How is it obvious Xykon getting the gate will result in it's destruction? Xykon has been very clear he doesn't want the gate destroyed, she knows what happened at Soons gate so she knows he took steps to try to prevent it's destruction.

2. And why should she try talking to the order? She has no reason to do so and no reason to believe they'd tell the truth for that matter. All she knows, (that we've confirmed), is that they trying to stop Xykon to protect the world from him using the gates for whatever nefarious ends he has, (which as noted do not involve blowing them up). There isn't an argument they can make in that regard thats relevant. If she had reason to believe they knew more about the gods plans or the nature of the rifts than she does you'd have a point. Nothing she's said indicates anything of the sort. Quite the opposite. her conversation with Lien and O-Chul is entirely focused on their stopping Xykon using the gates for his own ends.

3. If your going to say her decision making on the basis of what she knows is poor your going to have to justify it please. What decision should she have made and why is that better than the one she did make?

I am trying to decide if the Giant included Belkar and V in this chase because they will have meaningful interaction with Serini, or because their insults supply the jokes for the comic. I have the same question about why Elan and Sunny are together- is it for plot or punchline?
That could also explain why Roy & Durkon, who are two stick-in-the-mud characters, are out of commission. Sometimes humor is more important that drama.

Yes.

[Liquor Box]

1. How is it obvious Xykon getting the gate will result in it's destruction? Xykon has been very clear he doesn't want the gate destroyed, she knows what happened at Soons gate so she knows he took steps to try to prevent it's destruction.

Well, she thinks (correctly) that he intends to use the gate to rule the world (she says so in strip 1229). Given what she knows about the Snarl it would seem to stand to reason that the only way to use it is either to try and dominate it or to use the threat of it to blackmail, and given that she knows about how powerful it is she should know that either of those things will at the least have a high risk of releasing it on the world. It appears that the Order of the Scribble thought about this - strip 276 says that the Scribble feared what would happen if the gate fell into the wrong hands and strip.

Separately, she knows that Xykon's party destroyed a gate before despite not intending to do so. Serini appears to have decided that the paladins are a risk to the gate because they've been involved in a gates destruction, despite not intending to destroy it Not sure why she'd see the paladins as a risk any not Xykon, when both have destroyed a gate.

2. And why should she try talking to the order? She has no reason to do so and no reason to believe they'd tell the truth for that matter. All she knows, (that we've confirmed), is that they trying to stop Xykon to protect the world from him using the gates for whatever nefarious ends he has, (which as noted do not involve blowing them up). There isn't an argument they can make in that regard thats relevant. If she had reason to believe they knew more about the gods plans or the nature of the rifts than she does you'd have a point. Nothing she's said indicates anything of the sort. Quite the opposite. her conversation with Lien and O-Chul is entirely focused on their stopping Xykon using the gates for his own ends.

This is something that has been extensively discussed by others. Personally I am undecided whether she should have talked to the Order.

There is good reason for her to think the might know relevant information though for lots of reasons. For example, she clearly tailors her tactics to the enemy she is facing, and she appears to know that the Order has faced Xykon before - so they would be likely to have insights into Xykon's tactics/weaknesses she would find useful. I mean just the fact that they have been looking into the gates and have clearly found out some things about them would suggest they have a source she doesn't know about, which might possibly have given them some knowledge she doesn't know. I agree with you that she doesn't know that they do have information, but she should be able deduce that they might. So if she has nothing to lose she may as well talk to them because she might have a lot to gain.

The counterargument is that she might have something to lose. She seems to see herself as somewhat of a secret agent operating from the shadows. She might see it that it endanger her or make her plans harder to achieve if they knew she existed - not sure how strong that argument is because they clearly thought she might exist, hence the sendings. Maybe she though she'd accidently give something away.

The others who were involved may be able to expand on the arguments. Otherwise, take your pick.

3. If your going to say her decision making on the basis of what she knows is poor your going to have to justify it please. What decision should she have made and why is that better than the one she did make?

The starting point is that her goal is to prevent the gate's destruction at all costs. From 1229, her plan seems to be to let Xykon take the gate and rely on future adventurers will come and displace him in the future. She says that she see's the real risk to the gate is conflict and if the paladins (and Order) are taken out of the picture there will be no conflict. That logic ignores the risk Xykon poses to the gate without conflict (see the answer to your first point) and also ignores the fact that any future group who comes to displace Xykon will also lead to conflict putting the gate at risk. As such, her strategy of stopping people from trying to oppose Xykon is flawed.

In terms of what she could do instead, the best option to protect the gate would be to align herself with the other groups trying to stop Xykon, so collectively they have the best chance of stopping him and so she could influence them to oppose him in a way that poses less risk to the gate. But I understand some people object to that strategy because they think she'd need to trust the Order. In that case, simply doing nothing would be a better option than interfering with those who are willing to take a shot.

I note that some others don't agree with me and have disputed a few aspects of the above. If there's any part you disagree with, happy to discuss.

[Oromin]

Once in a past life I was a materials science grad student studying ceramic-metal interfaces.

Ceramics are highly acid resistant as a rule. Rocks vary greatly (my Geology is based on a single survey course taken as a Freshman undergrad) but generally are more reactive (in nature, ceramics are more like inclusions in rocks, rocks aren't usually ceramics, any more than iron ore is the same thing as a bar of iron).

Furthermore a rock found in a cave won't just be a rock. It'll be a dirty rock. Dirt is mostly composed of organics that will in fact react with most acids. The residue would be minerals mostly, although some of them might also react (metallic stuff espcially).

Now D&D geek back on. Green Slimes will eat dead organic matter too and convert it to slime (think wood, leather). It could sizzle on a rock because it is reacting to the dirt on the rock.

I'm sticking to my Green Slime theory :)

I was just a poor materials science undergrad. And my knowledge of rocks comes from a grandfather obsessed with them. Still I'm going to have to dispute some of this?

Rocks are principally composite mixtures of mineral species. And all minerals are ceramic materials by the definition I learned. (Unless you wanted to call native metal a mineral I guess). I feel like calling a ceramic/ceramic composite a ceramic is fair? At least when discussing chemical properties? Certainly I wouldn't just call the bulk of the mass inclusions.

I do agree that reactivity varies significantly by mineral species. But I guess it depends on what we consider resistant? If you use enough acid over a long enough period it almost doesn't matter what one you use. But the reaction we saw was pretty rapid. I don't think you'd get that with most silicate minerals with just any acid. You'd need a specific chemical pairing.

I concede the dirty rock point though. That's a good one and does make me think your theory is plausible.

[Oromin]

Isn't it just watered-up hydrocloric acid with some copper salt tossed in?

Copper sulfate yeah. You win the thread in my book.

[Oromin]

I've used a number of kinds of etchant, but I had to look that one up. Even if I'd encountered it before, I'm terrible at associating reactions with names. I did really well in most aspects of organic chem, but that was always my big blocker.

Well I mostly use it to etch stainless steel. No clue if it has any applications in organic chem. It's just the most aggressive substance I've ever used that's close to the appropriate color.

[danielxcutter]

It kinds feels like so far, her main role is to frustrate the Order and the readers - which is not to say that is all she'll be good for until the end of the comic, I'm saying that's what her narrative purpose seems to be now. Haley asked if someone could shoot her. V just asked if someone could kill her. That doesn't mean that I think she needs to die now or anything, and let's be real people say more extreme things than they actually plan to do when they're fed up like that so that doesn't mean Serini's going to die as soon as she stops running and starts talking, either.

And I think I've mentioned this in like two or ten threads by now, but... why does she have to be completely right in the boundaries of what we can guess she knows - or even beyond that? People aren't perfect, that pattern's shown up like more than a few times with the other Scribblers alone. The party disbanding, Dorukan dying, Lirian dying, Girard's Gate failing, all of that. And considering that she got approximately 25% of her body Blackfired off by Xykon I wouldn't blame her at all for being scared of him, or being pessimistic about the chances of defeating him.

But "Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world, so if I stop you now he'll get booted off in a few years and everything will be fine" is a horrible premise in terms of logic. I mean, she presumably knew that it killed an entire world and butchered a pantheon in less than half an hour. She might have seen the Snarl tear Kraagor apart with her own eyes. I don't see why she assumes that letting anyone even remotely like Xykon get hold of anything remotely like control of anything remotely like the Snarl is acceptable.

I still suspect the IFCC of tampering with her sources of information so she assumes the Order and the paladins are planning to destroy this final Gate. Manipulating people by exploiting their flaws is very much their MO. Serini is a noncaster who's been spending a lot of time with minimal contact with the outside, and they're archfiends with all the power and resources that implies. I can think of a couple of ways they could mess with her information without her noticing. And they don't have to do a lot, much less actively make a deal with her... just enough to tip things in their favor.

I just strongly disagree with the premise that her only shortcoming is not knowing about the Godsmoot, okay?

[Metastachydium]

I mean... yeah? Just like it's on you for wanting Serini to get punched in the face for having a reasonable point of view that opposes the Order? I don't have any problems with my own position.

Don't strawman me, Ruck. It's unbecoming. Serini has every reason not to trust the Order and I said that much quite a number of times. She deserves being punched in the face for being a bloody hypocrite and being smug about that.

[Hurkyl]

I don't feel frustrated by this turn of events. In fact, I'm rather enjoying seeing Serini and Friends in action. If I had to guess, that's part of the point: to show off what Serini has done with the place. (in addition to her being a mouthpiece for the author to lay out criticisms of the protagonists and their patrons so they can be later addressed)

That aside, I feel like "protagonists have to defeat the MacGuffin's guardians" is such an established trope that I find it somewhat bewildering how put off people seem to be by it. And being so used to there being no rationale given beyond it's the guardian's job to keep people away from the MacGuffin, it is actually a major bonus to have the guardian actually offering a rational argument why she's doing so.

[Vikenlugaid]

Why can't she? Tarquin knew it right away. Of course, he's much more genre savvy than your average NPC, but we're still canonically in a self-aware parody stick figure comic, she could've figured that out. I'm not holding it against her that she didn't, but she certainly could.

Even Tarquin got it wrong (he thought Elan was the protagonist and he was the main villain), and he is the only character who has ever talked about that, why Serini "certainly could"? I don't see that certainty anywhere.
From her perspective they are a bunch of random adventurers, and not the most efficient ones by the way.

[Hurkyl]

Even Tarquin got it wrong (he thought Elan was the protagonist and he was the main villain), and he is the only character who has ever talked about that, why Serini "certainly could"? I don't see that certainty anywhere.
From her perspective they are a bunch of random adventurers, and not the most efficient ones by the way.

Xykon did too. "Have to save the A material for the PCs" after making a lame joke to a (dead) inconsequential character.

[Vikenlugaid]

Are you trying to pretend Roy and V don't regularly insult their own teammates? Or that Roy isn't so arrogant he thinks he knows what's going on better than an actual Deva?
.

Yeah it is like "Serini is insulting the paladins while she got them chained, so mean!!!" But "Roy is insulting Elan while he is being charmed by an unidentified foe who might kill him, so funny!!!!"

[Vikenlugaid]

{Scrubbed}

[Carl]

Well, she thinks (correctly) that he intends to use the gate to rule the world (she says so in strip 1229). Given what she knows about the Snarl it would seem to stand to reason that the only way to use it is either to try and dominate it or to use the threat of it to blackmail, and given that she knows about how powerful it is she should know that either of those things will at the least have a high risk of releasing it on the world. It appears that the Order of the Scribble thought about this - strip 276 says that the Scribble feared what would happen if the gate fell into the wrong hands and strip.

Separately, she knows that Xykon's party destroyed a gate before despite not intending to do so. Serini appears to have decided that the paladins are a risk to the gate because they've been involved in a gates destruction, despite not intending to destroy it Not sure why she'd see the paladins as a risk any not Xykon, when both have destroyed a gate.



This is something that has been extensively discussed by others. Personally I am undecided whether she should have talked to the Order.

There is good reason for her to think the might know relevant information though for lots of reasons. For example, she clearly tailors her tactics to the enemy she is facing, and she appears to know that the Order has faced Xykon before - so they would be likely to have insights into Xykon's tactics/weaknesses she would find useful. I mean just the fact that they have been looking into the gates and have clearly found out some things about them would suggest they have a source she doesn't know about, which might possibly have given them some knowledge she doesn't know. I agree with you that she doesn't know that they do have information, but she should be able deduce that they might. So if she has nothing to lose she may as well talk to them because she might have a lot to gain.

The counterargument is that she might have something to lose. She seems to see herself as somewhat of a secret agent operating from the shadows. She might see it that it endanger her or make her plans harder to achieve if they knew she existed - not sure how strong that argument is because they clearly thought she might exist, hence the sendings. Maybe she though she'd accidently give something away.

The others who were involved may be able to expand on the arguments. Otherwise, take your pick.



The starting point is that her goal is to prevent the gate's destruction at all costs. From 1229, her plan seems to be to let Xykon take the gate and rely on future adventurers will come and displace him in the future. She says that she see's the real risk to the gate is conflict and if the paladins (and Order) are taken out of the picture there will be no conflict. That logic ignores the risk Xykon poses to the gate without conflict (see the answer to your first point) and also ignores the fact that any future group who comes to displace Xykon will also lead to conflict putting the gate at risk. As such, her strategy of stopping people from trying to oppose Xykon is flawed.

In terms of what she could do instead, the best option to protect the gate would be to align herself with the other groups trying to stop Xykon, so collectively they have the best chance of stopping him and so she could influence them to oppose him in a way that poses less risk to the gate. But I understand some people object to that strategy because they think she'd need to trust the Order. In that case, simply doing nothing would be a better option than interfering with those who are willing to take a shot.

I note that some others don't agree with me and have disputed a few aspects of the above. If there's any part you disagree with, happy to discuss.

1. We know she has some method of finding out whats going on now. That doesn't mean thats allways been the case, there's no indication she was taking any special precautions when she got ambushed and she didn't retreat to Krageors tomb till after that. It's quite possible and i'll admit i've been assuming as such, that she only started paying attention after Xykon took a chunk out of her and probably through scrying magic thats focused on the gates somehow, 9would make sense, the monitoring system would give her somthing to work with i should think). I don't know if she can get through the cloister spell, (i wouldn't put it past her but i wouldn't assume it), but she could certainly observe the actions at Soon and Girriad's gates upto the point they blew. From that she's knows team evil doesn't want to break the gates, ergo Lirian's must have been an accident.

Likewise she seems aware Xykon wants to take over the world. He can't do that if it gets blown up so no matter what he isn't going to break the last gate, (she may even expect him and redclock to put the effort into fixing the others just for better leverage). So any breaking of the gate is going to be strictly a last resort before death for him. Conversely once he gets himself into power she probably doesn't expect him to sit on a gate, (unless she knows he's planning to move it, but even then it's debatable). In short any attempt to take him down has a lot lower odds of having the gate caught in the crossfire. Worst comes to worst it's no better than trying to stop Xykon now. But it could be a lot better than that. Remember her goal is prevent the end of the world. provided he dosen't cause that Xykon can do whatever he want in the meantime as far as she's concerned. She's playing the odds here. It's not guaranteed to be any better in future, but it can't be any worse, (in her mind).

2. The Paladins know the enough to explain all their actions to date, (and in fact do explain all their actions to date vis a vis the gates at least), and she knows the orders been in contact with them. She has no reason to think they know anything she doesn't that would matter. Remember her sole goal is preventing all the rifts getting unsealed. Everything else isn't just secondary, it's completely irrelevant. If taking Xykon out represented the lowest long term danger to the remaining gate, she'd go for it. But so far everyone's managed to screw it up and Xykon needs the gate intact. In the short terms thats the lowest danger and in the long term it is at worst equally bad either way and potentially much better.

We also don't know what side moves she might be pulling. Lets be fair here, if her sole goal was "turn the gate over to Xykon" she could have done that weeks ago when they first arrived by any number of direct and indirect methods to lead him through the defences. So there's at least one more angle she's playing in this game. But defeat Xykon clearly isn't it. (Complete WAG, she has a stone tablet with the rift sealing spell on it, she's planning a last stand where she loses just slowly enough to convince Xykon and Redcloak it's a real defence so they'll trust the tablet when they fuind it amongst her belongings after killing her and will use it to seal up the rest of the rifts for their own leverage/benefit).

3. I think i covered this adequately. She has every reason to believe without any conflict happening around the gate nothing Xykon will do will destroy it and whilst any future killing off of Xykon might result in it's destruction there's at least a chance it won't, potentially a very good one in her mind if she doesn't know Xykon intends to move it, (he's not likely to want to rule the world from the north pole after-all).To some degree no matter what she does there's a way it can go all wrong, she just has to pick which she believes based on her info has the lowest odds of going wrong. Remember even if The Order beats Xykon, keeps the gate intact, and somehow manages to seal the other rifts again, someone could come along and do this whole cycle all over again. Nothing she can do about that, she'll be dead of old age long before that. There's allways going to be future threats to the gates of some kind from mortals, best she can do is set things up for the best odds of it working out.Nothign suggests she's not figured that part out for herself.

[Oromin]

But "Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world, so if I stop you now he'll get booted off in a few years and everything will be fine" is a horrible premise in terms of logic. I mean, she presumably knew that it killed an entire world and butchered a pantheon in less than half an hour. She might have seen the Snarl tear Kraagor apart with her own eyes. I don't see why she assumes that letting anyone even remotely like Xykon get hold of anything remotely like control of anything remotely like the Snarl is acceptable.

I think too much has been made of the "everything will be fine later" part of the argument. It's not actually an essential component of her decision.

Serini seems to think there are 3 options.

1). Stop Xykon
2). Xykon wins
3). Destroy the gate

She doesn't believe the first one is possible and prefers the second one to the third one. She doesn't think teaming up with the Order and the paladins makes option 1 more likely. She is concerned that they might pick option 3 to avoid option 2.

If option one is off the table because it can't be done then she may as well take option 3 off the table so it can't be done either.

[Carl]

It kinds feels like so far, her main role is to frustrate the Order and the readers - which is not to say that is all she'll be good for until the end of the comic, I'm saying that's what her narrative purpose seems to be now. Haley asked if someone could shoot her. V just asked if someone could kill her. That doesn't mean that I think she needs to die now or anything, and let's be real people say more extreme things than they actually plan to do when they're fed up like that so that doesn't mean Serini's going to die as soon as she stops running and starts talking, either.

And I think I've mentioned this in like two or ten threads by now, but... why does she have to be completely right in the boundaries of what we can guess she knows - or even beyond that? People aren't perfect, that pattern's shown up like more than a few times with the other Scribblers alone. The party disbanding, Dorukan dying, Lirian dying, Girard's Gate failing, all of that. And considering that she got approximately 25% of her body Blackfired off by Xykon I wouldn't blame her at all for being scared of him, or being pessimistic about the chances of defeating him.

But "Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world, so if I stop you now he'll get booted off in a few years and everything will be fine" is a horrible premise in terms of logic. I mean, she presumably knew that it killed an entire world and butchered a pantheon in less than half an hour. She might have seen the Snarl tear Kraagor apart with her own eyes. I don't see why she assumes that letting anyone even remotely like Xykon get hold of anything remotely like control of anything remotely like the Snarl is acceptable.

I still suspect the IFCC of tampering with her sources of information so she assumes the Order and the paladins are planning to destroy this final Gate. Manipulating people by exploiting their flaws is very much their MO. Serini is a noncaster who's been spending a lot of time with minimal contact with the outside, and they're archfiends with all the power and resources that implies. I can think of a couple of ways they could mess with her information without her noticing. And they don't have to do a lot, much less actively make a deal with her... just enough to tip things in their favor.

I just strongly disagree with the premise that her only shortcoming is not knowing about the Godsmoot, okay?

Your point about the Snarls power misses somthing. if it did that how is Xykon going to be able to control it? He isn't. If the gods can't a mere freaking mortal sure as hell won't. There's all kinds of blackmail he could do with it that she can probably think of, (to be fair it's right up her alley), but expecting her to worry what Xykon will do with the snarl itself is fairly silly, there's nothing he reasonably can do. Also if all he wanted was snarl access he doesn't need an intact gate for that ;).

Also all she cares about is that the gods don;t blow up the world. Xykon can do all the awful things to the people of the world he wants in her book, provided the world is still standing and not overrun by the snarl afterwards. Thats what she cares about. At the end of the day Xykon clearly isn't out to blow up the whole world and thus no matter what he does it's better than the alternative from her PoV.

[Carl]

I think too much has been made of the "everything will be fine later" part of the argument. It's not actually an essential component of her decision.

Serini seems to think there are 3 options.

1). Stop Xykon
2). Xykon wins
3). Destroy the gate

She doesn't believe the first one is possible and prefers the second one to the third one. She doesn't think teaming up with the Order and the paladins makes option 1 more likely. She is concerned that they might pick option 3 to avoid option 2.

If option one is off the table because it can't be done then she may as well take option 3 off the table so it can't be done either.

Thats my read too. She's worried intentionally or accidental that option 3 will occur in the attempt to make option 1 happen.

[danielxcutter]

Your point about the Snarls power misses somthing. if it did that how is Xykon going to be able to control it? He isn't. If the gods can't a mere freaking mortal sure as hell won't. There's all kinds of blackmail he could do with it that she can probably think of, (to be fair it's right up her alley), but expecting her to worry what Xykon will do with the snarl itself is fairly silly, there's nothing he reasonably can do. Also if all he wanted was snarl access he doesn't need an intact gate for that ;).

The fact that Dorukan put a self-destruct button on his Gate suggests that it's a valid concern, one that the paladins also considered a possibility. The entire theory hinges on the fact that the Gates diffuse its power and thus make it potentially controllable by mortals. And it doesn't even have to be that complicated, being able to point it at something that isn't you is an immensely powerful weapon. If I open a portal above your head that leads to an active volcano, I'm not doing much controlling but you'll be dead either way. Xykon himself thinks that he won't need that much control over it to use it for world domination during SoD.

Also all she cares about is that the gods don;t blow up the world. Xykon can do all the awful things to the people of the world he wants in her book, provided the world is still standing and not overrun by the snarl afterwards. Thats what she cares about. At the end of the day Xykon clearly isn't out to blow up the whole world and thus no matter what he does it's better than the alternative from her PoV.

He literally said that he might do it if he gets really bored.

[SkepticalSquid]

I still suspect the IFCC of tampering with her sources of information so she assumes the Order and the paladins are planning to destroy this final Gate. Manipulating people by exploiting their flaws is very much their MO. Serini is a noncaster who's been spending a lot of time with minimal contact with the outside, and they're archfiends with all the power and resources that implies. I can think of a couple of ways they could mess with her information without her noticing. And they don't have to do a lot, much less actively make a deal with her... just enough to tip things in their favor.

I agree that it could be quite plausible that the IFCC is manipulating what information Serini has. Either Xykon succeeding or the Snarl being unleashed could be spun in their favor- either scenario would create a lot of desperate people who they could make deals with. They said their deal with V was "proof of concept" in #633, and what better way to start mass producing people in a situation similar to what V was in (willing to do anything to save their loved ones from a fate worse than death) than to either have a murder-happy litch gain power or unleash a chain of events that will result in the universe having to be ended, with no chance of the souls in it even being able to reunite in the afterlife.

[Hurkyl]

I still think the idea Serini thinks Xykon can't be stopped is a completely wrong read of her conversation with the paladins. Not just in the context that she was playing devil's advocate to flesh out an alternative that O-Chul appears to have never even considered, but look at her wording in #1228:

O-Chul: You... believe it will require actions we are unwilling to take because we are paladins?

Serini: No, I think you stopping him will require actions you'll consider fully within bounds for your oaths. That's the problem.

And the emphasis is even the author's, not mine.

[pendell]

Serini is acting a lot like Gerard Draketooth was. You remember Gerard, right? Gave a phony map to his compatriots and set a death trap for the paladin?

Serini has reacted far less negatively than Gerard. She's trying to neutralize the party rather than simply murder them. But she and Gerard are both extremely suspicious of outsiders. Rogues are in a profession that doesn't promote trust of others. Even Haley had problems with this in the early days of the order. Plus, whatever happened to the original Scribble seems to have made a lasting impact on these former comrades. It's almost as if, not being able to trust their adventuring companions, they've lost the ability to trust anyone else outside of their own narrow circle of trusted paladins/minions/accomplices/family members.

Their inability to trust each other is at least as great a factor in the destruction of the gates as the Order is or Xykon. Each of the gates defenses have so far been undone by their own flaws -- flaws the Scribble built in at their first construction.

I find myself annoyed at Serini's unwillingness to take their calls, even to say "go away, not interested", but I don't think worse of her than any other member of the Order of the Scribble. Her actions are entirely in accordance with her character thus far, and with that of the original Scribble, whose defining quality was their fracture and inability to trust each other or anyone else.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Vikenlugaid]

It kinds feels like so far, her main role is to frustrate the Order and the readers - which is not to say that is all she'll be good for until the end of the comic, I'm saying that's what her narrative purpose seems to be now. Haley asked if someone could shoot her. V just asked if someone could kill her. That doesn't mean that I think she needs to die now or anything, and let's be real people say more extreme things than they actually plan to do when they're fed up like that so that doesn't mean Serini's going to die as soon as she stops running and starts talking, either.

And I think I've mentioned this in like two or ten threads by now, but... why does she have to be completely right in the boundaries of what we can guess she knows - or even beyond that? People aren't perfect, that pattern's shown up like more than a few times with the other Scribblers alone. The party disbanding, Dorukan dying, Lirian dying, Girard's Gate failing, all of that. And considering that she got approximately 25% of her body Blackfired off by Xykon I wouldn't blame her at all for being scared of him, or being pessimistic about the chances of defeating him.

But "Xykon doesn't want to destroy the world, so if I stop you now he'll get booted off in a few years and everything will be fine" is a horrible premise in terms of logic. I mean, she presumably knew that it killed an entire world and butchered a pantheon in less than half an hour. She might have seen the Snarl tear Kraagor apart with her own eyes. I don't see why she assumes that letting anyone even remotely like Xykon get hold of anything remotely like control of anything remotely like the Snarl is acceptable.

I still suspect the IFCC of tampering with her sources of information so she assumes the Order and the paladins are planning to destroy this final Gate. Manipulating people by exploiting their flaws is very much their MO. Serini is a noncaster who's been spending a lot of time with minimal contact with the outside, and they're archfiends with all the power and resources that implies. I can think of a couple of ways they could mess with her information without her noticing. And they don't have to do a lot, much less actively make a deal with her... just enough to tip things in their favor.

I just strongly disagree with the premise that her only shortcoming is not knowing about the Godsmoot, okay?

None is saying Serini is perfect. She just doesn't need to be perfect to be right, or at least "more right" than the order. Even with the things she ignore.
I am still thinking why the 3 infernals aren't acting to let her win, maybe they know that if the Order win here is better for their plans, so I am still sure that the order actions will lead to the world's destruction.

[Hurkyl]

It's not like they're the only ones. The Sapphire Guard, for example, was aggressively performing a worldwide purge of all gate-related information.

[danielxcutter]

Usually it’s not good news if you’re lying to the paladin you know. I wonder if they’d have given it to Xykon just to spite the paladins.

[Peelee]

I didn't say they were, but you were asking why some people might not find her crotchety attitude endearing.

I have never done anything of the sort. I have no problem with people disliking her. I simply question when then dislike goes to extreme ends, such as conjecturing if she would give her gate to Xykon just to spite paladins.

Usually it’s not good news if you’re lying to the paladin you know. I wonder if they’d have given it to Xykon just to spite the paladins.

[Oromin]

I still think the idea Serini thinks Xykon can't be stopped is a completely wrong read of her conversation with the paladins. Not just in the context that she was playing devil's advocate to flesh out an alternative that O-Chul appears to have never even considered, but look at her wording in #1228:

O-Chul: You... believe it will require actions we are unwilling to take because we are paladins?

Serini: No, I think you stopping him will require actions you'll consider fully within bounds for your oaths. That's the problem.

And the emphasis is even the author's, not mine.

See, and I read that as referring to destroying the gate. That she thinks the only way they can stop him is to blow it up. Just like they did at Azure City.

[danielxcutter]

Uhhhh, I was talking about the DRAKETOOTHS? Not Serini.

[Peelee]

Uhhhh, I was talking about the DRAKETOOTHS? Not Serini.

Sorry, I misread it. The overall point remains even if that specific example doesn't, of course.

Also, we can add "lie to paladins" to the pile of things that is unacceptable for Scribblers but fine for the OotS.