The Book of Boba Fett - First Trailer

[Cikomyr2]

Either way, the Old Republic MMO is set in an era with both empire and republic existing, and a ton of both jedi and sith existing, without either being under existential threat. The high republic comics that are currently ongoing have a large number of jedi running around. I imagine the original EU had other examples, probably as many bad as good ones.

Star Wars isn't fundamentally or solely about the last existing jedi (plural) trying to continue their teachings and fight the good fight. Some of the best material, both in EU and in legends comes from the perspectives and struggles of non-force users. Hell, I'd argue that the only truly good material to come out of the sequel era mainly consists of such stories, though force users appear in some of them.

And TOR is such a shining example of classic Star Wars narrative?

[Fyraltari]

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One or five, it doesnt really matter to me. Revan's entire war effort was based on his foresight about stopping issues before they arose and militarizing the Republic without breaking it. I struggle to believe that he wouldnt have noticed and moved against Nihilus, and especially that the other Jedi wouldnt have sensed something was wrong.

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Revan had his hands full with dealing with the Republic and treacherous Sith Lords like Malak. As long as Nihilus was more an asset than a danger he might have decided he'd kill him once the war was over. And the other Jedi did notice something wrong : specifically that half their order was now calling themsleves Sith and waging war on them, kind of a pressing issue.

[Taevyr]

And TOR is such a shining example of classic Star Wars narrative?

Some class stories, yes. The Jedi Knight story, for all it's flaws, has practically every classic Star Wars trope/element. But we were talking about star wars supposedly being about the jedi and their eternal dusk, while various stories and even entire eras of the setting are very clearly not that.

[Peelee]

Some class stories, yes. The Jedi Knight story, for all it's flaws, has practically every classic Star Wars trope/element. But we were talking about star wars supposedly being "in an eternal dusk", jedi-wise, while multiple era's of the setting are very clearly not that.

I'd say that it's the part where the Star Wars that Cikomyr likes lives.

Except for two thirds of the Prequel Trilogy, apparently.

[MCerberus]

Some class stories, yes. The Jedi Knight story, for all it's flaws, has practically every classic Star Wars trope/element. But we were talking about star wars supposedly being about the jedi and their eternal dusk, while various stories and even entire eras of the setting are very clearly not that.

ToR is frustrating due to Revan retcons and how uneven the mmo-ization made some of the stories. You have 0 creativity retreads alongside James Batman's Orwellian adventures in the Tippyverse which is the kind of story, which well we're in a thread about. Star Wars is a wonderful setting when it's blatantly mixing ever genre it can get its hands on.

The worldbuilding that can, eventually, be tracked to Lucas always seemed... the worst part.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm gonna need receipts for that How can we blame Lucas for stuff that is in the The Old Republic?

It's not his fault they stuck with an endless Jedi/Sith war rather than doing something else.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm gonna need receipts for that How can we blame Lucas for stuff that is in the The Old Republic?

It's not his fault they stuck with an endless Jedi/Sith war rather than doing something else.

That's another good point. The owners of Star Wars can't move away from the "eternal cyclical war". There's always a need to be Jedi to be purged - that's what they do best - and Sith/Empire to purge them.

[Peelee]

That's another good point. The owners of Star Wars can't move away from the "eternal cyclical war". There's always a need to be Jedi to be purged - that's what they do best - and Sith/Empire to purge them.

That gets old pretty dang fast.

Also, your claim here is a bit odd. Episodes 3-6 are based on a single purge. Episodes 1 and 2, along with The Clone Wars, had Jedi aplenty. The vast majority of games, novels, comics, etc are within that same rough time frame.

The biggest outliers are KOTOR (Jedi galore, no purge), KOTOR 2 (a purge, but also explicitly rebuilding Jedi and having quite a few in your party, choices depending), and the sequel trilogy, which featured one complete rehash of a previous movie, one movie which is the single most polar piece of SW media to date, and one movie which is near-universally panned.

If anything, Star Wars "lives" in the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire. But even that is a bad take.

[Cikomyr2]

That gets old pretty dang fast.

Also, your claim here is a bit odd. Episodes 3-6 are based on a single purge. Episodes 1 and 2, along with The Clone Wars, had Jedi aplenty. The vast majority of games, novels, comics, etc are within that same rough time frame.

The biggest outliers are KOTOR (Jedi galore, no purge), KOTOR 2 (a purge, but also explicitly rebuilding Jedi and having quite a few in your party, choices depending), and the sequel trilogy, which featured one complete rehash of a previous movie, one movie which is the single most polar piece of SW media to date, and one movie which is near-universally panned.

If anything, Star Wars "lives" in the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire. But even that is a bad take.

KOTOR's jedi are undergoing a purge. They are actively being wiped out from the face of the galaxy. They lost their biggest academy midway though the game, with large quantity of Masters! They are clearly on the decline at the start of the game, and even a Light Side victory doesn't change the fact that the Jedi are a shell of their former selves by the end of the game. Don't let the fireworks fool you.

KOTOR2 is just a continuation of the same previous purge.

Just it being "one purge" doesn't invalidate the point. The purge is not necessarily the point; the purge is more often than not the story context for Star Wars to happen; otherwise why don't you have just an army of superpowered space wizards resolve the Star Wars for you?

But the lost/unavailable army of superpowered space wizards still existed in the setting. Maybe your main character is one of them; or aspires to be one of them. Maybe they want to find one of them to resolve the conflict for them, only to find out that they only have themselves to rely upon.

You know; story/character stuff. Episodes I and II are.. let's just say "interesting". They certainly do not fit the tropiness of classic Star Wars; and that's also why they are the movies with the least plot holes involved the aforementioned army of superpowered space wizards being more stupid and more weak than previously established.

Suggested related reading: Conservation of Ninjutsu. One jedi is a war-changer. An army of Jedi are mooks to be purged.

[ecarden]

The purge is not necessarily the point; the purge is more often than not the story context for Star Wars to happen; otherwise why don't you have just an army of superpowered space wizards resolve the Star Wars for you?

I mean, the obvious reason is that they aren't there, or are busy with other stuff. There's fewer Jedi than there are planets in the Republic. Now, this does generally prevent you from telling a 'the galaxy is in peril and people know about it' story without dealing with the Jedi, but addiction to galaxy-level threats is poison in the canon and I really hope they get away from it.

Moving forward in time, instead of backwards, the Jedi 'problem' can be avoided simply by being somewhere Rey and her students aren't. It's a big galaxy, let's see some of it that isn't Tattooine and things get a lot easier.

For that matter, a story about a race between powers to identify and collect force sensitive people to build their own 'orders' which are loyal to and subordinate to smaller governments would be an interesting one. Fragmented groups of force users also explain why they can't solve the problem of the day, they're being held back to counter a rival order.

[Cikomyr2]

I mean, the obvious reason is that they aren't there, or are busy with other stuff. There's fewer Jedi than there are planets in the Republic. Now, this does generally prevent you from telling a 'the galaxy is in peril and people know about it' story without dealing with the Jedi, but addiction to galaxy-level threats is poison in the canon and I really hope they get away from it.

Moving forward in time, instead of backwards, the Jedi 'problem' can be avoided simply by being somewhere Rey and her students aren't. It's a big galaxy, let's see some of it that isn't Tattooine and things get a lot easier.

For that matter, a story about a race between powers to identify and collect force sensitive people to build their own 'orders' which are loyal to and subordinate to smaller governments would be an interesting one. Fragmented groups of force users also explain why they can't solve the problem of the day, they're being held back to counter a rival order.

Bolded and Underlined: exactly. They aren't there. They are busy with other stuff. More often than not they are dead, or they have been reduced to Hidden Elf Village status.

Underlined: I have to agree with you there. This is what the Mandalorian/Boba Fett seem to find their narrative footing, and it's pretty solid.

You don't need galactic-grade threats. You need good story that engages you. The scope of a story is, strangely enough, absolutely irrelevant to the quality of the story you will produce. A story can be BIG and have no engagement from your audience (*Cough* Jupiter Ascending *cough*).

You can make a GREAT story around Jedi, but you have to be very, very careful about their place in your story otherwise, instead of having a Fellowship w/ 1 Gandalf, you have a Fellowship with 4-5 Gandalf and 3 Glorfindels.

[Peelee]

KOTOR's jedi are undergoing a purge. They are actively being wiped out from the face of the galaxy.

In the same sense that the Republic's military is undergoing a purge.

Its a war. People die in wars. It's not a purge, regardless of how much you try to twist the story to force it to fit your view.

[Cikomyr2]

In the same sense that the Republic's military is undergoing a purge.

Its a war. People die in wars. It's not a purge, regardless of how much you try to twist the story to force it to fit your view.

As callous as it may sound, you can just recruit and train more military.

You can't just recruit "more" force-sensitive individuals. the Jedi have always trained as many as they can possibly get their hands on.

Losing a Jedi Master is not like losing a Star Destroyer. You can rebuild a new Star Destroyer, you can't rebuild a Jedi Master. And when you lose that Jedi Master, who will train the next generation of Jedi to replace him?

[Keltest]

As callous as it may sound, you can just recruit and train more military.

You can't just recruit "more" force-sensitive individuals. the Jedi have always trained as many as they can possibly get their hands on.

Losing a Jedi Master is not like losing a Star Destroyer. You can rebuild a new Star Destroyer, you can't rebuild a Jedi Master. And when you lose that Jedi Master, who will train the next generation of Jedi to replace him?

The other surviving Jedi masters, or his students who then go on to graduate to master status. Its bad if one gets killed of course, but absent the order's total destruction, they're no more irreplaceable in the long term than a Star Destroyer, its just a different procedure. Heck, Qui-gon dies, then Obi-wan replaces him. It took a bit of time, but your exact scenario happened and the Jedi were not (directly) critically endangered by it or severely weakened as an order.

[Cikomyr2]

The other surviving Jedi masters, or his students who then go on to graduate to master status. Its bad if one gets killed of course, but absent the order's total destruction, they're no more irreplaceable in the long term than a Star Destroyer, its just a different procedure. Heck, Qui-gon dies, then Obi-wan replaces him. It took a bit of time, but your exact scenario happened and the Jedi were not (directly) critically endangered by it or severely weakened as an order.

The scope is entirely different. We are not talking about *one* Jedi Master dying. We are talking about an entire Academy being wiped out. The next generation of Jedi that was training there. And their master. And all the techniques archived there. What makes Jedi "Jedi" and not merely force sensitive people with a laser sword.

That is in addition to all the Jedi who joined Revan and died or converted during the Mandalorian war, and in addition to all the Jedi who were killed by Revan and his forces.

Especially that we know that Jedi were explicitly targeted and hunted by Revan and his assassins.

Really? You don't see the war on display in KOTOR as the end of a Jedi era? If all of this doesn't convince you, I think we'll just have to accept we have different views of the meta displayed in KOTOR.

[Peelee]

As callous as it may sound, you can just recruit and train more military.

You can't just recruit "more" force-sensitive individuals.

You can. In fact, that is how the Jedi kept going beyond the lifespan of the first Jedi.

Really? You don't see the war on display in KOTOR as the end of a Jedi era?

Since it was canonically not, I would have to say that I didn't.

[Cikomyr2]

You can. In fact, that is how the Jedi kept going beyond the lifespan of the first Jedi.

I am going to assume you merely misunderstood what I wrote.

You cannot train *more* Jedi. As in: the Jedi are already training all potential Jedi they can find. The rate of training of Jedi is not something that can be increased, because you need to find more raw recruits, which are randomly distributed across the galaxy. You can't decide to increase the production of new jedi so you now have 400 new Jedi/year instead of the 200/year average you had in the past decades. The choking point is not the *ability* to train, but the raw material used.

You *can* build more Star Destroyers. As in, there's nothing that prevents you from building more Speshyards, which will allow you to build more speshships. Raw materials are not the issue; as there was never any plot point sorrounding the important of Unobtainamium in Starship creation process that chokes the creation of more starships.

Since it was canonically not, I would have to say that I didn't.

Canonically the entire war never happened in the first place because it's Legends.

IF you want to go "Legends canon", then KOTOR actually happens to be just prior the worst of the Jedi Purge of that era, which was only reversed later with the rediscovery of Jedi teaching by Handmaiden/Disciple who decided to reforge the Jedi order in ways less susceptible to have disciples fall to the dark side, because one of the message of KOTOR2 was that Jedi teachings of the time carried a flaw that made them vulnerable.

[ecarden]

This discussion may be more effective if we define our terms. For me, a purge of the Jedi has to accomplish at least two of the following:

1) Destruction or conversion of their existing powerbase/infrastructure
2) Destruction or conversion of the vast majority (90+%) of their membership
3) Prevention of future scale recruiting/training

I haven't played KOTOR 2, but KOTOR 1 definitely doesn't have this, though it was arguably being attempted. Palpatine accomplishes all three. Kylo Ren accomplishes (1-2), though to be fair, that was a lot easier given the smaller scale of the order by that point. I'm not thinking of any other successful purges.

ETA:

You cannot train *more* Jedi. As in: the Jedi are already training all potential Jedi they can find. The rate of training of Jedi is not something that can be increased, because you need to find more raw recruits, which are randomly distributed across the galaxy. You can't decide to increase the production of new jedi so you now have 400 new Jedi/year instead of the 200/year average you had in the past decades. The choking point is not the *ability* to train, but the raw material used..

It's not clear to me this is true? First, there's lots of places which aren't being checked (hence Anakin). Second, in current canon, I don't think there's been any explanation of why force users can't be cloned. Third, there appears to be a genetic component to being a force user and current Jedi doctrine makes it far less likely that they will have children. Having different doctrine/incentives would probably change the rate.

In other words, better doctrine and better recruiting might well increase the number of recruits, though there is presumably some upper limit to that (but likewise, there's an upper limit to the available material for warships and the available conscriptable population).

ETA2: Or, if you wanted to go more, you know, evil, there are other force using groups in the universe. The Republic could break the Dathomiri covens and abduct all the young children to be indoctrinated as new Jedi.

[hamishspence]

You cannot train *more* Jedi. As in: the Jedi are already training all potential Jedi they can find. The rate of training of Jedi is not something that can be increased, because you need to find more raw recruits, which are randomly distributed across the galaxy. You can't decide to increase the production of new jedi so you now have 400 new Jedi/year instead of the 200/year average you had in the past decades. The choking point is not the *ability* to train, but the raw material used.

I'd speculate that in Legends, the reason why the Jedi are allowed to marry and have kids during the New Sith Wars era, when there were Jedi dynasties, was due to the difficulties of finding raw recruits in a galaxy dominated by battling Sith factions.

"Breeding their own Jedi" means they don't have to go out and search for recruits, or have their recruit influx limited because people aren't testing their infants for Jedi Potential.

[Peelee]

I am going to assume you merely misunderstood what I wrote.

I did not. There were more than enough existing Jedi to continue training more Jedi. Neither the supply nor the demand of potential new Jedi was restricted, and the trainers were not nearly so bottlenecked as you are claiming.

Canonically the entire war never happened in the first place because it's Legends.

Yes, which is why I used the past tense. Regardless, if it makes you feel better, then in Legends canon that still is not what happened.

If you want to believe such things, you are of course free to do so. But when the narrative is against what you say and everyone else's perception is against what you say, then it should hardly be surprising to discover that your beliefs are not well-accepted.

[Keltest]

The scope is entirely different. We are not talking about *one* Jedi Master dying. We are talking about an entire Academy being wiped out. The next generation of Jedi that was training there. And their master. And all the techniques archived there. What makes Jedi "Jedi" and not merely force sensitive people with a laser sword.

That is in addition to all the Jedi who joined Revan and died or converted during the Mandalorian war, and in addition to all the Jedi who were killed by Revan and his forces.

Especially that we know that Jedi were explicitly targeted and hunted by Revan and his assassins.

Really? You don't see the war on display in KOTOR as the end of a Jedi era? If all of this doesn't convince you, I think we'll just have to accept we have different views of the meta displayed in KOTOR.

The academy wasnt actually wiped out. At least two of the masters are confirmed to have survived the attack on the academy, as they show up later.

[Peelee]

The academy wasnt actually wiped out. At least two of the masters are confirmed to have survived the attack on the academy, as they show up later.

Also, there wasn't just one academy. The Jedi had numerous academies. The one on Dantooine just had the council there at the time, which is why it had strategic importance to Malak.

[Cikomyr2]

This discussion may be more effective if we define our terms. For me, a purge of the Jedi has to accomplish at least two of the following:

1) Destruction or conversion of their existing powerbase/infrastructure
2) Destruction or conversion of the vast majority (90+%) of their membership
3) Prevention of future scale recruiting/training

I haven't played KOTOR 2, but KOTOR 1 definitely doesn't have this, though it was arguably being attempted. Palpatine accomplishes all three. Kylo Ren accomplishes (1-2), though to be fair, that was a lot easier given the smaller scale of the order by that point. I'm not thinking of any other successful purges.

I mean, at this point you are defining a purge only when it's both successful and finished. Which, I guess, makes you right, but I'd argue a purge in progress and successful is still a purge, just like a genocide still qualifies as a genocide even if you "only" wiped out 40% of a population.

[Peelee]

I mean, at this point you are defining a purge only when it's both successful and finished. Which, I guess, makes you right, but I'd argue a purge in progress and successful is still a purge, just like a genocide still qualifies as a genocide even if you "only" wiped out 40% of a population.

The First Jedi Purge happened years after the events in KOTOR.

You are wrong.

[Cikomyr2]

The First Jedi Purge happened years after the events in KOTOR.

You are wrong.

Hey look, you can link Wookiepedia! Woohooo!!!

[Peelee]

Wookiepedia

Wookieepedia. 2 E's.

[The Glyphstone]

Wookieepedia. 2 E's.

Let the hate flow through you, and embrace the power of the Dark Side...

[Peelee]

Let the hate flow through you, and embrace the power of the Dark Side...

I've heard you don't even have cookies.

[ecarden]

I mean, at this point you are defining a purge only when it's both successful and finished. Which, I guess, makes you right, but I'd argue a purge in progress and successful is still a purge, just like a genocide still qualifies as a genocide even if you "only" wiped out 40% of a population.

I mean...yeah? The original point was that a purge ensured their lack of story involvement. A failed purge is just a story element, not an inherent restriction on story involvement.

[Cikomyr2]

I mean...yeah? The original point was that a purge ensured their lack of story involvement. A failed purge is just a story element, not an inherent restriction on story involvement.

I can buy that. KOTOR had an ongoing purge/war where Jedi were extremely scarce and/or vulnerable.

Sfdebris's highlight of the story of the start of the game also demonstrate why, if you are nominally the lynchpin of the Jedi and the Republic both, you are saddled with a freighter and minimal crew.

The Endar Spire was a full Jedi expedition, with plenty of Knights and Republican support and they drew Malak's attention and were ambushed. Therefore going all out is not the answer and this is why you are the 3-people infiltration team meant to save the Galaxy.

But that's just ludo-narrative harmony, and after saying that word I'll go smell my own farts