The Book of Boba Fett - First Trailer

[Wintermoot]

I'll never understand why people choose to belief the worst things of the Jedi.

Huge online deep-state Sith conspiracy to defame them.

[Fyraltari]

I'll never understand why people choose to belief the worst things of the Jedi.

The whole "takes in children at a very young age to teach them not to have emotional attachments to people, even relatives" does make for a bad first impression. Oh and the whole leading a slave-army thing.

Plus add the usual stuff about the setting needing issues and vilains for story to happen meaning the heroes can never be that good at their job that tends to cast many heroic sides in a bad light.

[Peelee]

The whole "takes in children at a very young age to teach them not to have emotional attachments to people, even relatives" does make for a bad first impression. Oh and the whole leading a slave-army thing.

I fail to see how parents voluntarily giving their children possibly frames the Jedi in a bad light.

Plus add the usual stuff about the setting needing issues and vilains for story to happen meaning the heroes can never be that good at their job that tends to cast many heroic sides in a bad light.

Yes, the thousand generations of them being good at their job until someone external who is supposedly a master manipulates manipulates one of them into betraying the others. How bad at their job they must be.

I know all the justifications. I just find them weak at best and invented out of thin air at worst.

[Cikomyr2]

Wasn't Campbell's work not one of creation but of study? I mean, I couldn't finish the book, but I think the idea was that he set out to identify common motifs and themes to stories from many different cultures. If you set out to find the most common story ever, ending up with one that feels like every story ever told is hardly a sign of failure.

It was a work of study. He tried to draw a universal template meant to unite stories of all cultures under its framework. As anthropological study goes it has been abandonned as a serious field of research, but it has becomed the standard template any hack writer can base himself upon to write a story, and therefore became the STC for the entertainment capitalist content-producing machine.

[Fyraltari]

I fail to see how parents voluntarily giving their children possibly frames the Jedi in a bad light.

Sorry, what? How does that have anything to do with what I said?

Yes, the thousand generations of them being good at their non until someone external who is supposedly a master manipulates manipulates one of them into betraying the others. How bad at their job they must be.

I know all the justifications. I just find them weak at best and invented out of thin air at worst.

Just because you find them unconvincing doesn't mean no one is allowed to. You asked why people had an opinion, I gave you two of the most commonly quoted reasons. That they don't convince you is irrelevant.

It was a work of study. He tried to draw a universal template meant to unite stories of all cultures under its framework. As anthropological study goes it has been abandonned as a serious field of research, but it has becomed the standard template any hack writer can base himself upon to write a story, and therefore became the STC for the entertainment capitalist content-producing machine.

What people used his work for doesn't make his stated belief disingenuous or hypocritical though. Which was the meaning I thought you statement implied, was I mistaken?

[Cikomyr2]

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What people used his work for doesn't make his stated belief disingenuous or hypocritical though. Which was the meaning I thought you statement implied, was I mistaken?

I am sorry, i missed a few words in the statement you read. Noah point out the sublime irony and tragedy that Campbell enshrined the cookie cutter storytelling tropes that are now used to mass produce media when he tried to denounce the shallowness of american entertainment culture of his time.

The whole irony/tragedy point had to be said. i didnt mean to imply that Campbell was disingenuous or hippocrite

[Peelee]

Sorry, what? How does that have anything to do with what I said?

I was directly responding to your claim that part of the reason was Jedi taking in new members as children. I thought I had quoted the relevant text before my reply. I apologize if I had not.

Just because you find them unconvincing doesn't mean no one is allowed to. You asked why people had an opinion

I never asked why anyone had an opinion, and I never insinuated that nobody was allowed to find them convincing. I said that I would never understand why people choose to believe the worst things of the Jedi. There is a rather large gap between what I said and what you seem to think I said.

[Fyraltari]

I was directly responding to your claim that part of the reason was Jedi taking in new members as children. I thought I had quoted the relevant text before my reply. I apologize if I had not.

But the parent's consent is the least of these issues. They are teaching children to repress their emotions and sending them into life-threatening situations. That Shmi thought "well, that's better than having a bomb implanted in his neck" does not make this any less questionable.

Also, the slave army.

I never asked why anyone had an opinion, and I never insinuated that nobody was allowed to find them convincing. I said that I would never understand why people choose to believe the worst things of the Jedi. There is a rather large gap between what I said and what you seem to think I said.

"Chosing to believe the worst things" (i.e. passing judgement) based on the text is having an opinion.

[Peelee]

But the parent's consent is the least of these issues. They are teaching children to repress their emotions and sending them into life-threatening situations.

The thing that is poorly explored in the series but apparently worked well for 20,000 years? That thing?

Notwithstanding the whole "that's completely different than what it was first portrayed as and degraded severely because George Lucas is sincerely messed up", which I will always agree with.

"Chosing to believe the worst things" (i.e. passing judgement) based on the text is having an opinion.

And, again, I never said people are not allowed to do that or questioned why they did that. If you think I did, you are free to quote me. Again, I know the justifications. I see them as remarkably flimsy at best. I do not understand how people can hold those opinions. Ibalso feel this way about other IRL opinions and beliefs I cannot speak about here. That doesn't mean I ever thought people weren't allowed to have such opinions, which is what you accused me of (I can quote you on this, if you wish).

[Mechalich]

Also, the slave army.

The Clones are not slaves.

The Republic treats them like any other kind of soldier (and it had other soldiers during the Clone Wars, even if we usually only see fairly high-ranking officers), they are paid, they are allotted leave, they receive medical care when injured, and everything else a regime would be expected to provide to its armed forces. In fact there's very strong contextual evidence that the Clones were treated far better by the state than the Empire treated later conscript troops.

Yes there are weird fictional ethical questions about the clones, but most of them are tied to their creation, something the Jedi Order was explicitly not responsible for. If Yoda had gone to Kamino and ordered the Clones freed, then when a desperate Republic launched a crash military recruitment drive 99.9% of all Clones would have immediately signed up.

Is having millions of people indoctrinated into their very genetics that to fight and die for the Republic is the very best thing they can ever do rather awful? Yes, certainly, but the clones' existence was a fait accompli, it had already happened and the Jedi just had to deal with it (that the Senate ordered increasing levels of clone production throughout the war is also not the fault of the Jedi). How well they handled this issue is somewhat debatable, and was a matter of considerable conflict between people writing in the shared universe, with Karen Traviss specifically trying to make the Jedi look like monsters and everyone else portraying the matter in a much, much more level fashion.

Now the Jedi Order failed to sufficiently investigate the origin of the Clone Army in both continuities. In Legends it certainly wasn't for wont of trying, and the Disney canon includes some gestures that way as well. Unfortunately, because the story demands Palpatine's victory certain things, especially the true mammoth redistribution of funds necessary to create the clones, have to be let slide.

[Fyraltari]

And, again, I never said people are not allowed to do that or questioned why they did that. If you think I did, you are free to quote me. Again, I know the justifications. I see them as remarkably flimsy at best. I do not understand how people can hold those opinions. Ibalso feel this way about other IRL opinions and beliefs I cannot speak about here. That doesn't mean I ever thought people weren't allowed to have such opinions, which is what you accused me of (I can quote you on this, if you wish).

I apologize if I've come off as aggressive, that wasn't my intention. I've been under a non-negligeable amount of stress lately, not helped by a second death in the family in a couple months.

As to your question, people with different personalities, outlooks and life dxperience will react differently to the same information.

The text presents the Jedi as a religious cult that teaches things that in the real world as very damaging to the psyche, sends children in life-threatening situations, tacitly endorse the use of a slave army and has enjoyed a tremendous amount of power, as the main enforcers of the galactic state for five times the length of recorded history with little to no check on their actions, but failed to meaningfully improve that state in any way (still full of absolute monarchs, rampant social injustice, and violence) and produced the most dangerous individuals in galactic history who in turn caused extremely destructive conflicts time and time again.

The text presents the Jedi as an order full of selfless knights and wise wizards, tirelessly working and risking their lives for the safety of others for no personal reward, striving for peace and understanding and under whose guidance the galaxy has known its best period of (relative) peace, prosperity and justice.

There is a tension between these two portrayals, one that is not easily resolved. Some people will focus on the first, others on the second, others yet will try to resolve that tension and others will throw their hands up in the air and call it bad writing. These are all perfectly understandable reactions.

Edit:

The Clones are not slaves.

They are not allowed not to join the army.
They are not allowed to leave the army.
They are not allowed to vote.
They have no legal names.

They have no freedom.

[Cikomyr2]

They are not allowed not to join the army.
They are not allowed to leave the army.
They are not allowed to vote.
They have no legal names.

They have no freedom.

Oh, thats a good point. I havent watched Clone Wars. Any clone actually try to legally quit?

I kind of get people who abandon their post are pursued. And obviously, just like modern non-slave militaries dont allow soldiers to quit their service while they are in the middle of a war. But was there any story about the willingness of clones to go and not go to war?

Off course, we know all clones had a chip implanted in them. But that wasnt public knowledge and definetly not known by the Jedi

[Mechalich]

They are not allowed not to join the army.
They are not allowed to leave the army.
They are not allowed to vote.
They have no legal names.

They have no freedom.

Conscription is not slavery! Every state on Earth right now maintains the power to force all of its citizens to join the army for any length of time it wishes. Quite a few of them impose this requirement on every single citizen for at least a few years.

As to the vote, it's actually not clear whether or not the Clones could vote or if they would have anything to vote on. The Republic is not a direct democracy and precisely what the voter franchise covers is highly questionable and changes from place to place. Lots of people in Star Wars didn't have the vote, the Clones aren't special in this way. And they do have legal names - that's what their identification numbers are. Heck, almost every state on Earth right now identifies its citizens by an ID number.

Subsequent to their discharge after the fall of the Republic the Clones have just as much freedom as everyone else. Admittedly that's not much under the Empire, but it's there. Palaptine discharged them all and told them to get on with their lives, and Rebels provides solid evidence that they did. Those lives were unfortunately foreshortened due to the accelerated aging process and many suffered from severe mental distress because they didn't know what to do with themselves when not fighting, but they were discharged.

But was there any story about the willingness of clones to go and not go to war?

The malformed clone 99, featured in multiple TCW episodes, desperately wanted nothing more than to fight and considered himself an abject failure in that physical disability prevented him from doing so. The Kaminoans were really good at their jobs and insured the Clones wanted to fight.

[Dire_Flumph]

Oh, thats a good point. I havent watched Clone Wars. Any clone actually try to legally quit?

The Clone Wars episode "The Deserter". A clone went AWOL and started a family. It is implied that Rex informing command of this would have led to him either being forcefully reconscripted or executed.

[Bunny Commando]

Conscription is not slavery! Every state on Earth right now maintains the power to force all of its citizens to join the army for any length of time it wishes. Quite a few of them impose this requirement on every single citizen for at least a few years.

Sure, but a citizen is not bred just to be conscripted. A citizen enjoys the rights and protection given by a State and in turn might be drafted to defend that same State; a clone is born to be indoctrinated so that he would want to fight and die for the State that is going to buy him.
I believe there is a huge difference.

[Peelee]

Sure, but a citizen is not bred just to be conscripted. A citizen enjoys the rights and protection given by a State and in turn might be drafted to defend that same State; a clone is born to be indoctrinated so that he would want to fight and die for the State that is going to buy him.
I believe there is a huge difference.

We've seen what happens if, say, a clone simply doesn't pass the combat training. They don't go to combat. They aren't forced to fight, and they just work a regular job.

They do not want to do this, of course. Virtually all of them want to fight, and want to pass their training.

The Clone Wars episode "The Deserter". A clone went AWOL and started a family. It is implied that Rex informing command of this would have led to him either being forcefully reconscripted or executed.

In the middle of a war? That sounds about right.

[Cikomyr2]

The Clone Wars episode "The Deserter". A clone went AWOL and started a family. It is implied that Rex informing command of this would have led to him either being forcefully reconscripted or executed.

Deserters get shot in non slave armies too though
Thats why i added that people who just run away being punished is not a good example

[Fyraltari]

Oh, thats a good point. I havent watched Clone Wars. Any clone actually try to legally quit?

I kind of get people who abandon their post are pursued. And obviously, just like modern non-slave militaries dont allow soldiers to quit their service while they are in the middle of a war. But was there any story about the willingness of clones to go and not go to war?

Off course, we know all clones had a chip implanted in them. But that wasnt public knowledge and definetly not known by the Jedi

Two that I can think of, one had a clone betray the Republic to the separatists justifying (hypocritically considering how many of his brothers he's killed) his actions by calling the clones slaves to the Jedi and the Republic. Another deserts after a battle in which his entire squad is killed. There is never any indication that the clone have the option to quit through legal means.

Conscription is not slavery!

Conscription is not usually limited to a single group, and is philosophically justified by the conscripts fighting for a nation they have a stake in. Which is not the case for the clones. In fact it's backward: they are expected to earn their place in the Republic by defending it first.

Every state on Earth right now maintains the power to force all of its citizens to join the army for any length of time it wishes.

You sure?

As to the vote, it's actually not clear whether or not the Clones could vote

Season3, episode7 of the Clone Wars has Padmé makes a speech where she says the soldiers must be repesented and given a future beyond warfare, that seems pretty clear to me.

or if they would have anything to vote on.

*broadly gestures at everything*

The Republic is not a direct democracy and precisely what the voter franchise covers is highly questionable and changes from place to place. Lots of people in Star Wars didn't have the vote, the Clones aren't special in this way.

No, but they have it worse in other ways. Also "it sucks for other people too" is never an argument for it sucking for some people.

And they do have legal names - that's what their identification numbers are. Heck, almost every state on Earth right now identifies its citizens by an ID number.

No. A number is not a name. A name is an expression of individuality, a number is the denial of that. People have names, things have numbers. Jack and Vladimir are acknowledged as different, CT-36599 and CT-37600 are presented as interchangeable. If numbers were names, the clones wouldn't take names for themselves in the same way that they get tatoos, haircuts, paintjobs and dyes to differentiate themselves from their brothers.

Subsequent to their discharge after the fall of the Republic the Clones have just as much freedom as everyone else. Admittedly that's not much under the Empire, but it's there. Palaptine discharged them all and told them to get on with their lives, and Rebels provides solid evidence that they did. Those lives were unfortunately foreshortened due to the accelerated aging process and many suffered from severe mental distress because they didn't know what to do with themselves when not fighting, but they were discharged.[/quote]
Yup, the Galactic State used them and then discarded them without making any effort to integrate them into the society they'd fought to protect. Definitely not seeing them as tools.

The malformed clone 99, featured in multiple TCW episodes, desperately wanted nothing more than to fight and considered himself an abject failure in that physical disability prevented him from doing so. The Kaminoans were really good at their jobs and insured the Clones wanted to fight.

"Give them to me young and they will be mine forever". The kaminoans had them from conception, it'd be surprising if their brainwashing wasn't successful.

[Peelee]

If numbers were names, the clones wouldn't take names for themselves in the same way that they get tatoos, haircuts, paintjobs and dyes to differentiate themselves from their brothers.

Some do. Not all. And this isn't really different from people who have names taking nicknames for themselves in the same way that they get tatoos, haircuts, paintjobs and dyes to differentiate themselves from their brothers complete strangers.

[Dire_Flumph]

Deserters get shot in non slave armies too though
Thats why i added that people who just run away being punished is not a good example

No argument there, It was just an example of a clone being unwilling to go to war. It's pretty clear in the series that clones have no legal rights, so going AWOL would be the only option.

It's also not unusual that this treatment of clones would be accepted in this setting. Droids are presented as self aware beings with no rights as well and to my knowledge we've only seen one character even question that. As manufactured and conditioned beings it's not a huge leap to see clones as organic droids.

[Wintermoot]

Conscription is not slavery! Every state on Earth right now maintains the power to force all of its citizens to join the army for any length of time it wishes. Quite a few of them impose this requirement on every single citizen for at least a few years.

you might want to research this if you think this is a fact.

[russdm]

Yes, the thousand generations of them being good at their job until someone external who is supposedly a master manipulates manipulates one of them into betraying the others. How bad at their job they must be.

I know all the justifications. I just find them weak at best and invented out of thin air at worst.

This problem is that George couldn't write a compelling story of victory for Palps, since it was canon anyway, and so he made no effort there. He could have started with Palps doesn't win, and work out how Palpatine could win by the skin of his teeth, or from a lucky roll at the end, and then work the plot around that. It would sold everything well.

Instead, George promptly want through the least difficult method possible, and didn't care enough to make the story good. So, Palpatine is portrayed as a super manipulative hotshot, when we get: Not one instance of that being believable. That is poor story telling.

Naturally, due to George being dumb, doesn't make the Jedi work, because he just can't. He needs Palps to win, but he couldn't never figure out a way to show it as a hard won victory, and so it makes everybody look incredibly stupid.

George is good at making ideas but bad more in execution. and I think a good comparison can be made between George and Gene Roddenberry: lots of good/great ideas but needs the help of others to produce the best of the ideas and seriously needs some people to flat out tell them "no"

don't forget that "Empire Strikes Back" is one of the best of the original Trilogy, and it was directed by Kirshner, and had some involvement from George, but that George also did some stepping back. (Next best would A New Hope, and then Return of the Jedi)


As for the Clone Army)

I think that it was made clear that the Republic Through Sifo Dyas guy bought the army, and there is nothing to suggest the Clones were anything but a Product. That means probably more like a force of Mamluks than anything else. So, the Jedi are leading what is essentially a slave army.

These are supposed to be the Good guys, but due to George's writing, I would say that it is unclear if George understood what clarifies that. There is little reason to think that George thought things through.

He may have intended to set it up that the Clones were more supposed to mercernaries or guns for hire, but didn't think about it. To be honest, the original idea, of jedi fighting clones alongside Republic troops would have worked better, and it makes more sense than an army of droids. But then the rating would have changed and not be a "kids" movie anymore.

[Devonix]

Caught up again. I liked this episode better, since it was the first one to really escalate the stakes and momentum. Also the writers gave the title character at least a couple lines, which sure is sporting of them.

My girlfriend emphatically did not like Grogu being forced to choose between vaguely ascetic warrior cult A and vaguely ascetic warrior cult B. I kinda wish the shows leaned a bit more into contrasting the Jefi with the the Mandalorians, but aside from the whole no attachment thing (which at this point makes zero sense since it's just a not great copy of Lucas's not fantastic understanding of the Buddhist idea of impermanence) and the Mandalorian weapon fetish, we really don't have a lot to go on there.

My theory at this point is Grogu is how they plan to un-bork themselves after Rise of Skywalker messed things up so spectacularly. He can just have been off on the woods eating frogs or whatever for the entire Sequel Trilogy, and we can restart like 100 years after that, none of the ST nonsense matters anymore, and look, we've got a new Jedi mentor all ready to go, but linked to the good bits of the franchise.

We're not supposed to like that Grogu's being made to choose. Luke's blatantly in the wrong here, but it does completely fit in the way Luke is wrong. It's his first time teaching and he's overcorrecting. Luke is basically Tenzin from Legend of Korra.

As far as not keeping any of the ST stuff. Highly, Highly unlikely. They have been seeming to lean rather heavily into it. Also it's not the way Filoni works. He never tried retconning or ignoring the Prequels. He focused on trying to refine parts of it.

[Fyraltari]

Some do. Not all. And this isn't really different from people who have names taking nicknames for themselves in the same way that they get tatoos, haircuts, paintjobs and dyes to differentiate themselves from their brothers complete strangers.

Not a single clone I am aware of introduced himself as a number*. The clones also follow no visible fashion trend. They all go in their unique direction. This is a clear search for individuality and uniqueness. Which people in real-life also seek, true, but people in real life are usually not dehumanized the way clones are. Like if parents named their children "Child One", "Child Two", "Child Three" and "Child Four" what would that tell you about the way these people see their children?

*Except Fives, but even then, it's not his actual designation. And he's even the one who to literally say "I'm not just a number, none of us are."

[Mechalich]

It's also not unusual that this treatment of clones would be accepted in this setting. Droids are presented as self aware beings with no rights as well and to my knowledge we've only seen one character even question that. As manufactured and conditioned beings it's not a huge leap to see clones as organic droids.

In-universe there's a huge difference between clones and droids. The galaxy far, far away is not our universe, it explicitly differs from ours on a fundamental level. We have four fundamental forces, they have five. This has some pretty profound consequences.

Notably, mind-body dualism is explicitly true for organic sapient beings in Star Wars. The key quote is "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" from Yoda in ESB. Droids, however, lack this connection to the Force and therefore have no souls (something Lucas stated outright). Droids are therefore a kind of philosophical zombie - they reason, but they are not 'people' (this makes a lot of people uncomfortable in the real world, but essentially every character in-universe accepts it without difficulty). The clones are explicitly on the 'people' side of this divide. Yoda, again, provides the example, when he differentiates each clone in his bodyguard using the Force on Toydaria in TCW.

The clones being treated as disposable by the leadership of the Republic is more a matter of social class. The idea that lower class people should fight and die for the needs of their social and economic superiors is perfectly normal within the sort of social system that Star Wars reflects. That system is very much not that of the 21st Century West. Instead, PT Era Republic society reflects the values Lucas ascribed to the societies that actually fought the war to which the Clone Wars are analogous.

[Sapphire Guard]

The whole 'George needs people to correct his ideas' thing is nonsense. It's a meme based on cruelty and confirmation bias, from a fandom desperate to deny George credit for anything good while blaming him for anything bad. It's founded on absolutely nothing.

[Dire_Flumph]

In-universe there's a huge difference between clones and droids. The galaxy far, far away is not our universe, it explicitly differs from ours on a fundamental level. We have four fundamental forces, they have five. This has some pretty profound consequences.

Notably, mind-body dualism is explicitly true for organic sapient beings in Star Wars. The key quote is "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" from Yoda in ESB. Droids, however, lack this connection to the Force and therefore have no souls (something Lucas stated outright). Droids are therefore a kind of philosophical zombie - they reason, but they are not 'people' (this makes a lot of people uncomfortable in the real world, but essentially every character in-universe accepts it without difficulty). The clones are explicitly on the 'people' side of this divide. Yoda, again, provides the example, when he differentiates each clone in his bodyguard using the Force on Toydaria in TCW.

The clones being treated as disposable by the leadership of the Republic is more a matter of social class. The idea that lower class people should fight and die for the needs of their social and economic superiors is perfectly normal within the sort of social system that Star Wars reflects. That system is very much not that of the 21st Century West. Instead, PT Era Republic society reflects the values Lucas ascribed to the societies that actually fought the war to which the Clone Wars are analogous.

Interesting, but I disagree for two reasons.

First off, while that may be how the Jedi would perceive the difference, there is ample evidence that the Force is not a universally accepted thing by the people of the galaxy, so I don't see Joe Corellia making that distinction.

Second, it can't be just a class issue as slavery is illegal in the Republic. There would be a point there if we saw conscription among the lower classes and we don't, likely because such a move would be politically unpopular if not directly against the laws of the Republic. The clones were almost certainly commissioned to avoid conscription.

[Mechalich]

First off, while that may be how the Jedi would perceive the difference, there is ample evidence that the Force is not a universally accepted thing by the people of the galaxy, so I don't see Joe Corellia making that distinction.

The cultural influence of the Jedi Order, within the territories of the Republic (and even some places that used to be part of the Republic but aren't anymore) is immense, and the Jedi worldview informs the foundational ideological assumptions by which almost all members of the Republic culture operate even when those people do not actively believe in the Force or other aspects of the Jedi religion. This is exactly comparable to how the underpinnings of a religion continue to inform a culture even after it officially adopts secularism - forum rules prohibit the use of any actual examples, but they are extremely prevalent.

We only rarely see non-Republic-based cultural viewpoints in Star Wars, and those that we do see, such as the Hutts or Kaminoans, have significantly worse opinions with regard to the rights of sapient beings.

Second, it can't be just a class issue as slavery is illegal in the Republic. There would be a point there if we saw conscription among the lower classes and we don't, likely because such a move would be politically unpopular if not directly against the laws of the Republic. The clones were almost certainly commissioned to avoid conscription.

Yes the Clones were a ploy by Palpatine to avoid conscription, both because he needed a key to pull off Order 66 and because doing so cemented his popularity, but it's still an issue of class (and slavery, when not based on ethnicity, is also a class issue). Effectively Palpatine created an even lower class of people to fight for the Republic so that his own people would not have to. This is analogous to drafting the members of a foreign colony to fight on the state's behalf.

It's certainly reasonable to say that the average citizen of the Republic thought of the Clones as 'lesser' than themselves while still thinking of them as 'more than' droids. In fact many of the humans in the Republic probably considered the clones to be equivalent to certain alien species, especially species such as Klaatonians, Niktos, and so on that they primarily encountered as slave soldiers of the Hutts. Actually, I suspect the Republic took a great deal of parochial pride in treating the Clones better than the Hutts treated their soldiers (and considered the conscripts vs. slave distinction rather important as a result), while still not fully acknowledging their equality. The Jedi, actually, did considerably better than the average Republic citizen in this regard as they generally treated the clones as equals, insofar as it's possible for Jedi to treat non-Force sensitives as equals.

[Dire_Flumph]

The cultural influence of the Jedi Order, within the territories of the Republic (and even some places that used to be part of the Republic but aren't anymore) is immense, and the Jedi worldview informs the foundational ideological assumptions by which almost all members of the Republic culture operate even when those people do not actively believe in the Force or other aspects of the Jedi religion. This is exactly comparable to how the underpinnings of a religion continue to inform a culture even after it officially adopts secularism - forum rules prohibit the use of any actual examples, but they are extremely prevalent.

We only rarely see non-Republic-based cultural viewpoints in Star Wars, and those that we do see, such as the Hutts or Kaminoans, have significantly worse opinions with regard to the rights of sapient beings.

We actually do see evidence within the Republic of skepticism on whether the Force exists or at least a profound lack of understanding on what it can do. At least enough that I would compare it to a religion not shared by the general population rather than the Force being taught in primary school alongside chemistry. And that's the point I'm trying to get at. "But they don't exist in the Force" is not an argument your average citizen is going to use.

But yes, pretty much everything we see outside of the Republic does seem significantly worse.

[Peelee]

The whole 'George needs people to correct his ideas' thing is nonsense. It's a meme based on cruelty and confirmation bias, from a fandom desperate to deny George credit for anything good while blaming him for anything bad. It's founded on absolutely nothing.

He had the idea to have backwater desert people be dressed in robes. He then had the idea to have Jedi all dress in backwater desert people robes. He then had the idea to have a teenage Jedi, who should be dressed in backwater desert people robes, be dressed in a miniskirt and tube top.

He said "make the Hutt sound like Truman Capote".

He said Indiana Jones wouldn't be interesting as a character if, as a late-20's graduate student, he didn't have sex with a twelve-year-old.

There's plenty of foundation for "George needs people to correct his ideas". These examples are just scraping the surface.