A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 56
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Murica
    Gender
    Male

    confused Quest Points Instead Of XP

    So I've been thinking of this new subsystem for Leveling Up, using the new "Quest Points" system instead of using XP. Basically, you would gain Quest Points for doing quests in the game successfully, rather than XP. Once you have enough Quest Points, you Level Up. The higher level you are, the more Quest Points you need to level up again, of course. The harder the quest, the more quest points received. But, you can also get extra Quest Points if you meet an optional Bonus Objectives (if any) for that Quest. You do not gain Quest Points directly from combat, and so combat should be avoided if possible, because it can be a drain on one's resources. But, you can gain Inspiration Points from combat (sometimes). These Inspiration Points, if you save up enough of them (5 or so?) you can turn them in for Quest Points.

    I am thinking about trying this because, as a GM, I sometimes wonder and get confused when exactly I should hand out XP for certain actions, and how much. It can seriously drag the pacing of the game, calculating XP after each action that might warrant it, such as completing quests, picking locks, disarming traps, discovering new locations, finding secret areas, persuading or seducing an NPC, and combat, of course. All things that will yield either a small or huge amount of XP, depending on difficulty.
    I often see GMs get into the habit of only really rewarding XP for combat, and the occasional doling out of XP for "roleplaying" whatever that means. Maybe not every GM does this, but this happens a lot, at least from what I've seen.

    With this new Quest Point system, I hope to make character progression easier and more straightforward, and cut out a lot of bs that often comes with XP.

    Anyways, what do you guys think of this? Does it seem like a good plan, or are you now shaking your head in doubt and cringe? Would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Sounds like milestone XP which has been around for ages. It's moderately popular because it simplifies the bookkeeping and removes metagame incentives to fight/steal/break things. It is a little harder to balance properly than XP for encounters. Note, there is some confusion in terms: there is milestone XP (killed Strahd: 6666 XP, escaped from Ravenloft: 3333 XP) the same thing 3.5 DMG calls Story Awards (except Story Awards can be in addition to normal XP from encounters while milestone XP usually refers to them as a sole source of XP) and there is milestone leveling (When the party escapes Ravenloft they gain a level). Milestone XP allows for normal interaction with other sources that drain XP (crafting, death, spells with XP costs), Milestone leveling demands something else

    Though I must question what is the purpose of having separate Quest Points instead of giving out XP in standard chunks of 200/500/1000? Same for Inspiration points - what is gained by having them instead of minor XP gain in increments of 50 or whatever? Do you want to alter the XP chart so leveling from 10th to 11th level does not take 10 time as much (whatever) points as leveling from 1st to 2nd?
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 2021-11-09 at 11:07 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Honestly, I think you're still overcomplicating things. For most games, "you level up at the end of each little story arc" is all you need. Your players finish clearing a dungeon after a few sessions of work? Level up. They track the kidnapped dragon back to the princess' lair and save him? Level up. If the system doesn't use experience points as currency (ie, 3.5e D&D's crafting, or Mutants and Masterminds power points), there's no much point in that level of granularity.
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    I think it sounds great, as long as you take a very structured approach to running the campaign, where “quests” are clearly delineated the way they are in a computer game. And then your design goal should be to ensure the players engage with those quests and complete them: if that’s how they gain xp, they will.

    If you regard “quests” as “anything the PCs end up doing” then I suspect you will run into some fuzzy boundaries and need to make calls about when you give xp, and it will probably devolve into ad-hoc milestone xp.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Honestly, in practice all you're doing is changing the name and adding a complication in getting XP from combat. Why not just move to 'you get a level when the GM days so'?
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Honestly, in practice all you're doing is changing the name and adding a complication in getting XP from combat. Why not just move to 'you get a level when the GM days so'?
    You can do that, of course, it works fine. This is my personal preference though, I like xp to act as an incentive for certain behaviour by the players. I like the “quest points” idea if the premise of the campaign is that the PCs are “quest-doers” and there are pre-defined quests that they are meant to engage with.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Murica
    Gender
    Male

    sigh Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Honestly, I think you're still overcomplicating things. For most games, "you level up at the end of each little story arc" is all you need. Your players finish clearing a dungeon after a few sessions of work? Level up. They track the kidnapped dragon back to the princess' lair and save him? Level up. If the system doesn't use experience points as currency (ie, 3.5e D&D's crafting, or Mutants and Masterminds power points), there's no much point in that level of granularity.
    Taking a few sessions to clear a dungeon? I know you're just giving an example here, but since I'm not so great at running dungeons, so I try to keep it to one or two sessions at most.
    And saving the kidnapped dragon from the princess' lair? I see what you did there. That's hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Honestly, in practice all you're doing is changing the name and adding a complication in getting XP from combat. Why not just move to 'you get a level when the GM days so'?

    Quest Points are there because there might be Big Main Questlines that the PCs will follow (or ignore) but there is also Side Quests. Each of these sources of quest points will eventually add up to a Level for the players. How is that overly complicated?
    Last edited by HumanFighter; 2021-11-10 at 11:27 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    (checks - "role-playing", not "3e" thread)

    OK, to start, my gut reaction: sounds like milestone leveling, but I like it better.

    Secondary gut reactions: having Inspiration Points (IP) and not just Quest Points (QP) seems odd, but sounds like "emphasis on story awards", with "normal" sources of XP deemphasized. Also, it sounds… painful… to fail at missions "not only did we get beaten up by 'guy who killed our fathers', but we're also not getting a training montage to be able to best him next time?!".

    So, what's the point? What problem are you trying to solve? What behaviors are you trying to curb / encourage?

    From your post, I got "avoid unnecessary combat".

    And I also got a strong "choice of missions" vibe.

    And "The harder the quest, the more quest points received" needs some care.

    So, let's say that the party decides to collect some honey from some giant bees (yes, I'm reusing that example):

    Spoiler: bees!
    Show
    Combat as War: The PCs make knowledge checks, and prepare for the encounter, using their abilities intelligently, and having good teamwork. Realizing that bears raid honey trees in nature, one character contracts ursine lycanthropy, while another prepares Summons spells to summon bears. They also consider how to utilize the smoke that beekeepers use to collect honey, and, while discussing holding their breath and establishing escape routes even in smoke, realize that Undead have DR, and neither breathe nor can be poisoned. With cooperation, and every advantage, they roflstomp the encounter, without taking damage, and reconsider their plan to kill the Queen Bee. Instead, they leave her alive, and vow to return to get even more free money later. The GM congratulates them for a game well played, and for exceeding both his expectations on how much they'd net (given the lycanthropy strength boost, and that the undead added their carrying capacity to the party), and his expectation of this being a one-shot cash cow.

    Combat as Sport: the party blunders straight into the encounter as always, declaring that nothing could possibly go wrong as the DM grins ghoulishly, but there’s BEES EVERYWHERE! GIANT BEES! With nasty poison saves! The PCs don't even consider running for their lives, or that they don’t stand a chance against the bees, because they know that the GM will make everything a fair fight. But then the Fighter stowed his magical sword in favor of his hammer, because nobody uses swords against bees IRL, and hammers smush bees, right? The barbarian decides that now, while he's distracted and won't be expecting it, is the perfect time to take revenge on the Wizard, and power attack leap attack shock troopers him into a thin red paste. On a series of unlucky rolls, aided by their poor tactics, the Fighter and Barbarian succumb to the poison. The Rogue, who was hiding the whole time, attempts to flee, using a zigzag pattern (because bees have problems with zigzag, right?), and dies to the maximum number of AoOs. The GM face palms as the party suffers yet another TPK on an encounter his 7-year-old brother was able to solo.

    Quertus: Quertus stops time, teleports in, teleports out with honey.


    How many QP & IP would each party receive?

    Or… Armus sees that everyone in his party has been abducted from their original homeworlds, and decides to get everyone home. He gets a good coin and a soil samples from everyone's boots. He collects components over IRL years of adventuring. Then he submits the components and his recipe to a Wizard, whom he commissions to craft the custom item: a not so cubic Cubic Gate, keyed to 10 different prime material worlds.

    How many QP is that worth?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Stonehead's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Yeah, personally I just use story arc level ups in 90% of games. I think the advantage to handing out XP or QP is that it lets you give out rewards to the players when there's no other in-universe rewards. If you save a cat stuck in a tree, it doesn't really make sense to hand out treasure as a reward. For some groups, saving the cat is reward enough, but if you really start overthinking things, it can start to feel pointless. In those groups, I could see XP/QP rewards being preferable.

    As for QP vs XP, everyone expects xp rewards from combat, and I could see players complaining if you had combats, and didn't give out xp as a reward. It sounds stupid, but rebranding it could solve those complaints. Kind of like how WoW rebranded their 'tired' xp rates as normal, and the formerly normal xp rates as 'rested'.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by HidesHisEyes View Post
    You can do that, of course, it works fine. This is my personal preference though, I like xp to act as an incentive for certain behaviour by the players. I like the “quest points” idea if the premise of the campaign is that the PCs are “quest-doers” and there are pre-defined quests that they are meant to engage with.
    True, but that's not the stated intent of the system. My point is, I think it's at best buy a real change, and at worst more complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanFighter View Post
    Quest Points are there because there might be Big Main Questlines that the PCs will follow (or ignore) but there is also Side Quests. Each of these sources of quest points will eventually add up to a Level for the players. How is that overly complicated?
    Then in practice all you've done is reinvented milestone XP and changed the name. Congratulations!

    In practice this system is no more or less complex than XP as it exists. If the innkeeper asks me to run to the shops to fetch a few turnips is that a quest? What if the king asks me to pop over to the city nextdoor and pick up the taxes?

    But there is an extra bit of complication, because of Inspiration Points. An entirely new resource that, as written, do nothing except get converted into a different resource when you have n. Surely it would just be easier to have combat give 1/n XP for it's level of 'challenge'?
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Sounds like milestone XP which has been around for ages.
    Sounds even more like the old Advancement Point system from Adventurer's League. Well, one of the systems. Given AL, I'm sure they've changed it and changed it again*

    Get a point for playing X many hours, a point for the main quest, a point for the side objective, etc. Add up your points and compare to the matrix of how many points it takes to level up per tier. I thought about using a similar system for an episodic campaign but ultimately decided just going "GM says when" Milestone was less bookkeeping and less likely to irritatingly leave everyone one point shy of a level just because they didn't find the extra Macguffin.


    *As soon as I typed that, I remember that they did indeed change it to basically "Level up when you feel like it".
    Last edited by Jophiel; 2021-11-10 at 12:15 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    My current model is entirely session-based. Any meaningful (what that means is up to the party, but generally "did you engage with the game and the world? then meaningful") session counts as a point. To get to the next level, you need to get points equal to MIN(your current level, 4).

    So levels go like:
    Level 1: 1 session
    Level 2: 2 sessions
    Level 3: 3 sessions
    Level 4: 4 sessions
    Level 5: 4 sessions
    ...

    This is similar to what you'd get if you had full adventuring days each session...without needing to always be looking for combat or tallying quest XP or anything else. And makes it really predictable. The one wrinkle is that you really get your level up benefits at the long rest closest to that session marker (usually between sessions, but sometimes we'll go into a fight on the end of the 4th session, so I'll let them level up before the fight actually starts the next session).
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    PhoenixPhyre's Extended Homebrew Signature
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Archmage in the Playground Moderator
     
    truemane's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Grognardia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    I find the best way to motivate players to get things done is to be clear and upfront about what kind of game/story I want to do, get their buy-in on it, and then do my best to give them things to do that they like doing. And/or give them things in-game to care about (cute animals, small children, attractive NPC's, etc) and then threaten them. All the XP in the universe won't motivate a party half as much as someone about to kill that nice old lady that gave them cake that one time when they were sad.

    But, for numerical awards, the standard 5E template is: XP for encounters, Inspiration for everything else.

    Some of the confusion comes from defining 'encounter' as 'combat.' An encounter is better understood as a scene that consumes (or risks consuming) on or more resources (HP, spell slots, Ki, potions, gold pieces, etc), and that require (or encourage, or invite) one or more dice rolls to pass through to the next part of the story.

    Combat is easy to adjudicate because it's pretty binary (you're either in combat or you aren't), while everything in between fights can be a little squidgier. If you roll to Persuade a merchant to give you a break on some items, is THAT an encounter? If the trouble-making half-elf Stealths past some guards into a castle was THAT an encounter?

    YMMV of course, but generally speaking, if a scene has the potential to consume one or more resources (and sometimes that resource can be time, or goodwill, or reputation), and one or more rolls are needed to move through it, I generally call that an 'Encounter.' And when I'm writing adventures, I give each encounter an XP value based on its CR.

    Like combat, CR is based on how hard it is to move from one side of the encounter to the other, assuming the worst happens. It's not based on the PC's solutions. You don't generally give XP for picking a lock. But you give XP for opening/overcoming/surviving a trapped chest. And a higher CR doesn't necessarily mean the lock is harder to pick. It might mean a nastier trap. If you find yourself overthinking the assignment of CR (or find it hard to assign it on the fly when you get caught by something you haven't prepped), just make it the same as their current level. That'll work well enough most of the time.

    I give XP for resolving/overcoming/moving through the encounter. Which might mean they avoid it altogether, or it might mean they screw it all up and everything goes sideways and it's a whole mess to get out of. Maybe they fight the Ogres. Maybe they talk them down. Maybe they pick the lock, maybe the chest explodes. Like combat, XP is awarded for getting through it (however that looks in the moment) rather than for any particular method of doing so.

    This system can be gamed ("I go call a guy a jerk and then roll to calm him down for 150 XP!"). But, as always, if my players start to weaponize the rules of the game in-universe in a way that's incongruent with the game we're playing, I don't make up a rule to stop them. I just ask them to knock it off.

    If you want to reward role-playing, or any other aspect of play, find ways to turn those activities into encounters. If you can't do that, use Inspiration as a reward.

    In my experience, there are really two broad choices when it comes to experience points: either the story itself hands them out in a simulationist manner or the DM hands them out in a narrativist manner. Both are fun in different ways.

    My general recommendation is to pick one and commit to it, rather than trying to mix them.
    Hard Times in Halcyon City [Masks] - IC-Ch.2 / OC

    Bless the Maker and His water.
    Bless the coming and the going of Him.
    May His passage cleanse the world.
    May He keep the world for His people.


    (Tarot-Mage-atar by Cuthalion, may his backups never fail)

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Wyoming
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    I did this in a game. The "quest points" for each level were 100.

    Every quest basically represented a percentage value of getting to the next level. Harder or "big deal" quests gave more points. Quests would "lose" points as you outleveled them, but no quest gave less than 1 point, so yes, you could grind out a bunch of low level quests, or you could go try the hard/big stuff.

    The bigger harder quests also rewarded bigger and better loot, better reknown with bigger and more influential people and so on.

    But the idea that you could grind out a lot of small quests also helped rationalize the idea of high-level local heroes, because ya know, they saved everyone's cats from all the trees.
    Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
    "You know it's all fake right?"
    "...yeah, but it makes me feel better."

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Honestly, I think you're still overcomplicating things. For most games, "you level up at the end of each little story arc" is all you need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Honestly, in practice all you're doing is changing the name and adding a complication in getting XP from combat. Why not just move to 'you get a level when the GM days so'?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
    I thought about using a similar system for an episodic campaign but ultimately decided just going "GM says when" Milestone was less bookkeeping and less likely to irritatingly leave everyone one point shy of a level just because they didn't find the extra Macguffin.
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    My current model is entirely session-based. Any meaningful (what that means is up to the party, but generally "did you engage with the game and the world? then meaningful") session counts as a point. To get to the next level, you need to get points equal to MIN(your current level, 4).

    ...

    This is similar to what you'd get if you had full adventuring days each session...without needing to always be looking for combat or tallying quest XP or anything else. And makes it really predictable. The one wrinkle is that you really get your level up benefits at the long rest closest to that session marker (usually between sessions, but sometimes we'll go into a fight on the end of the 4th session, so I'll let them level up before the fight actually starts the next session).
    Interesting that so many people advocate strict milestone leveling instead of milestone/quest only XP. I think that incentivizing player's actions and rewarding achievements with XP is not something that should be routinely dispensed with. Maybe I do not have the right kind of experience but I think that pure milestone either presupposes a relatively strictly pre-defined storyline (not applicable to many games), or is reliant on GM tracking "achievement and coolness factor" loosely and silently when it could be done better by explicit assignment. I cannot offer a critique of strict session-based leveling except it just feels wrong to me.

    Maybe it's my experience with levelless systems that make me feel ok with handing out XP by GM fiat but not levels... except in the levelless point buy free-floating points are closer to D&D levels (just tiny ones) than D&D XP... aaargh.

    Also: I was found guilty of committing Playgrounder's Fallacy, but the essence of my previous argument is not reliant on the system: if mathematical relation between a quest point and pre-reform XP can be established then I see no reason not to spell it out. I think it's easier to get an informed buy-in from your players that way. No need to tell them that they are Doomsealers.
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 2021-11-10 at 11:04 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Honestly, I think you're still overcomplicating things. For most games, "you level up at the end of each little story arc" is all you need. Your players finish clearing a dungeon after a few sessions of work? Level up. They track the kidnapped dragon back to the princess' lair and save him? Level up. If the system doesn't use experience points as currency (ie, 3.5e D&D's crafting, or Mutants and Masterminds power points), there's no much point in that level of granularity.
    +1.

    Where I can see "Quest Points" being helpful is in a truly unstructured sandbox where there aren't "milestones" or "story arcs" to speak of. But I genuinely can't think of an example, even the most sandboxiest sandbox games I've played have had subplots.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    Murica
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    +1.

    Where I can see "Quest Points" being helpful is in a truly unstructured sandbox where there aren't "milestones" or "story arcs" to speak of. But I genuinely can't think of an example, even the most sandboxiest sandbox games I've played have had subplots.
    Look, honestly when I first made this thread, I had forgotten that milestone XP was a thing.

    And yeah I do try to run sandbox games mostly. I do try to include various plots and subplots in my setting, but I leave my players free to choose whether they want to pursue them or not. I have so many plots going on in my setting by now, I have forgotten some of them (where did I put my notes!? Ah!) and yeah some of these plots have been resolved already, but there is still so much more to go, and I just keep coming up with more and more ideas over time (yay more quest points)

    I just never liked the idea of milestones because it seems like to me the players are only rewarded with levels when they "follow along the rails"
    My rails go everywhere when I GM. Like, everywhere. In fact, it is more like a spider's web than a railroad.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Faily's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    I don't even like XP anymore. Just give me milestone-levelling.

    I've just never been super gung-ho about pestering for XP after encounters and the like, so I'm fine with just being told "you get to level up now". Though this kind of levelling works poorly if you have a GM that just wants to keep you at the same level for waaaay too long (I suspect some of the GMs I've played with would've done that if they had thought of it).
    RHoD: Soah | SC: Green Sparrow | WotBS: Sheliya |RoW: Raani | SA: Ariste | IG: Hemali | RoA: Abelia | WftC: Elize | Zeitgeist: Rutile
    Mystara: Othariel | Vette | Scarlet

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
    I don't even like XP anymore. Just give me milestone-levelling.

    I've just never been super gung-ho about pestering for XP after encounters and the like, so I'm fine with just being told "you get to level up now". Though this kind of levelling works poorly if you have a GM that just wants to keep you at the same level for waaaay too long (I suspect some of the GMs I've played with would've done that if they had thought of it).
    The general advice I've seen is one or two levels per plot arc or major villain, but I've also been in games that only spanned a single plot arc.

    But yes, at that point it's on the GM to balance it. Although I'd argue that short (1-2 month) campaigns might actually benefit from little or no advancement. I own at least one RPG without any kind of advancement rules (although character creation is so simple I suspect it's intentionally designed for one shots).

    Honestly, in practice the best system might just be to agree 'X experience points per session' with your group, and have characters just advance automatically. It doesn't even really lead to sitting around waiting for levels, because that's a sure way to spending four hours bored.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Honestly, in practice the best system might just be to agree 'X experience points per session' with your group, and have characters just advance automatically. It doesn't even really lead to sitting around waiting for levels, because that's a sure way to spending four hours bored.
    That's actually exactly what I do, just dropping out the "X experience points" math. You get some fraction of a level each session, unless everyone agrees that it was a wasted session (in which case there are bigger issues, and this has never happened). It's predictable for everyone, doesn't put incentives on "following the DM's quest line" or "kill lots of things", and is, most importantly, really really really easy to manage. I don't have to decide how much a given quest/milestone is worth or what counts as a milestone. I don't have to keep track of encounters. It's basically ungameable. It results in players being incentivised to do things they consider fun. Which is win, for me.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    PhoenixPhyre's Extended Homebrew Signature
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    61.2° N, 149.9° W
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    I did this 10 or 12 years ago in a D&D 3e sandbox game. It was something like 1/4 level per minor random dungeon/quest, 1/2 level for major or plot dungeon or quest, and 1 level for completing a major plot arc (there were like 6 or something). Removed xp costs for everything and replaced them with 5x gp costs. People who lost levels (drains or resurections) got 2 levels on level-up until they matched the party level.

    In theory if they'd done absolutely everything they would have ended up almost level 30. Realistically I expected them to hit the end of one of the end-game missions about level 15. What they did was actively avoid any social situations and insult a number of powerful npcs, resulting in them going into an end-game mission about level 12 fully trusting the npc who gave it to them. Naturally if they'd talked to any other npc about the mission or mission giver they'd have been strongly warned about being used as pawns in a one-way suicide mission.
    "And this, too, shall pass away."

    DtD40k7e rewrite complete.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Interesting that so many people advocate strict milestone leveling instead of milestone/quest only XP. I think that incentivizing player's actions and rewarding achievements with XP is not something that should be routinely dispensed with
    I've seen the "incentive" argument a lot when discussing why XP is good and milestones are bad. Various permutations of "Why should everyone level up if this guy was doing more roleplaying or that guy missed three sessions?" In my experience, and maybe I'm just unusually fortunate in this regard, getting to play D&D is its own reward and no one in my groups needs to be coaxed into participating. Or, if they do, it's a problem that dangling XP in front of them won't address (shy, unsure of the rules, feels out of place, doesn't like the story, off day in real life, etc). I find there's still plenty of ways to reward people, ranging from loot to inspiration points to character-building side stories to just saying "Hey, that stuff you did was really cool; nice job" after the session.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    That's actually exactly what I do, just dropping out the "X experience points" math. You get some fraction of a level each session, unless everyone agrees that it was a wasted session (in which case there are bigger issues, and this has never happened). It's predictable for everyone, doesn't put incentives on "following the DM's quest line" or "kill lots of things", and is, most importantly, really really really easy to manage. I don't have to decide how much a given quest/milestone is worth or what counts as a milestone. I don't have to keep track of encounters. It's basically ungameable. It results in players being incentivised to do things they consider fun. Which is win, for me.
    To be fair, the systems I've seen it used in were point buy. Both ways reduce bookkeeping to a minimum, they're just for different styles of advancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
    I've seen the "incentive" argument a lot when discussing why XP is good and milestones are bad. Various permutations of "Why should everyone level up if this guy was doing more roleplaying or that guy missed three sessions?" In my experience, and maybe I'm just unusually fortunate in this regard, getting to play D&D is its own reward and no one in my groups needs to be coaxed into participating. Or, if they do, it's a problem that dangling XP in front of them won't address (shy, unsure of the rules, feels out of place, doesn't like the story, off day in real life, etc). I find there's still plenty of ways to reward people, ranging from loot to inspiration points to character-building side stories to just saying "Hey, that stuff you did was really cool; nice job" after the session.
    Plus there's plenty of character archetypes they you can roleplay effectively while flying under the radar, generally quieter types.

    Plus XP as reward for roleplay just leads to Agony Munchkins. Where a player creates a character with the explicit purpose of hogging as much play time as possible to roleplay, probably to angst about their lost humanity, and thus get more XP to use to buy cool inhuman powers to angst about.

    As for missing sessions, eh. People have lives. If a player would rather doing their shopping or roleplaying with their significant others rather than roleplaying with the group that's their decision, and I see no reason to penalise them when they are able to turn up.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
    I've seen the "incentive" argument a lot when discussing why XP is good and milestones are bad. Various permutations of "Why should everyone level up if this guy was doing more roleplaying or that guy missed three sessions?" In my experience, and maybe I'm just unusually fortunate in this regard, getting to play D&D is its own reward and no one in my groups needs to be coaxed into participating. Or, if they do, it's a problem that dangling XP in front of them won't address (shy, unsure of the rules, feels out of place, doesn't like the story, off day in real life, etc). I find there's still plenty of ways to reward people, ranging from loot to inspiration points to character-building side stories to just saying "Hey, that stuff you did was really cool; nice job" after the session.
    I was not talking about individual character awards. I am ok with them, but having a unified party XP pool does not prevent you from using XP-as-rewards for the entire party. Kinda the same as wealth, or items, or social resources or any kind of power whatsoever. Whether you can end up with more or less is separate from whether there is a disparity between characters.

    As an aside if rewarding XP would not address the issue (and indeed it will often do nothing) neither will loot or inspiration points

    P.S. I should have written "players' actions" instead of "player's actions".
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 2021-11-11 at 10:07 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    As an aside if rewarding XP would not address the issue (and indeed it will often do nothing) neither will loot or inspiration points
    True. I was trying to say that rewarding XP was unnecessary (or not useful) for me to motivate participation. However lack of XP doesn't prevent me from throwing out an attaboy reward if I feel one was warranted.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    +1.

    Where I can see "Quest Points" being helpful is in a truly unstructured sandbox where there aren't "milestones" or "story arcs" to speak of. But I genuinely can't think of an example, even the most sandboxiest sandbox games I've played have had subplots.
    Quote Originally Posted by HumanFighter View Post
    Look, honestly when I first made this thread, I had forgotten that milestone XP was a thing.

    And yeah I do try to run sandbox games mostly. I do try to include various plots and subplots in my setting, but I leave my players free to choose whether they want to pursue them or not. I have so many plots going on in my setting by now, I have forgotten some of them (where did I put my notes!? Ah!) and yeah some of these plots have been resolved already, but there is still so much more to go, and I just keep coming up with more and more ideas over time (yay more quest points)

    I just never liked the idea of milestones because it seems like to me the players are only rewarded with levels when they "follow along the rails"
    My rails go everywhere when I GM. Like, everywhere. In fact, it is more like a spider's web than a railroad.
    That sounds like why my gut reaction was to like Quest Points (QP) more than milestone leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    That's actually exactly what I do, just dropping out the "X experience points" math. You get some fraction of a level each session, unless everyone agrees that it was a wasted session (in which case there are bigger issues, and this has never happened). It's predictable for everyone, doesn't put incentives on "following the DM's quest line" or "kill lots of things", and is, most importantly, really really really easy to manage. I don't have to decide how much a given quest/milestone is worth or what counts as a milestone. I don't have to keep track of encounters. It's basically ungameable. It results in players being incentivised to do things they consider fun. Which is win, for me.
    I like the sound of this. Simple, and effective. OP? What's your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    As for missing sessions, eh. People have lives. If a player would rather doing their shopping or roleplaying with their significant others rather than roleplaying with the group that's their decision, and I see no reason to penalise them when they are able to turn up.
    Man, I'm struggling on the fence with this one.

    The original RPG setup: open table, various competitors steadily clearing an adventure site. You got XP and treasure for what you actually did. Obviously, giving people unearned income would be wrong.

    Daily one-shots: we'll start in the "weakest" system, and slowly progress to the most powerful. Saying, "this is the 3rd session you've attended, so your character is from system 3, while we're on system 17" seems equally unfair.

    That said, "balance" and "fun" are not synonyms. Some of the most fun I had was (re)joining an existing 7th level party with a 1st level character. Despite being "Tier 1 OP", Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, is all but the load. Some of my characters really carried the team, others were carried (once, quite literally, as I was playing a Sentient Potted Plant).

    So I think it really depends on the setup as to where I stand on this one.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanFighter View Post
    So I've been thinking of this new subsystem for Leveling Up, using the new "Quest Points" system instead of using XP. Basically, you would gain Quest Points for doing quests in the game successfully, rather than XP. Once you have enough Quest Points, you Level Up. The higher level you are, the more Quest Points you need to level up again, of course. The harder the quest, the more quest points received. But, you can also get extra Quest Points if you meet an optional Bonus Objectives (if any) for that Quest. You do not gain Quest Points directly from combat, and so combat should be avoided if possible, because it can be a drain on one's resources. But, you can gain Inspiration Points from combat (sometimes). These Inspiration Points, if you save up enough of them (5 or so?) you can turn them in for Quest Points.

    I am thinking about trying this because, as a GM, I sometimes wonder and get confused when exactly I should hand out XP for certain actions, and how much. It can seriously drag the pacing of the game, calculating XP after each action that might warrant it, such as completing quests, picking locks, disarming traps, discovering new locations, finding secret areas, persuading or seducing an NPC, and combat, of course. All things that will yield either a small or huge amount of XP, depending on difficulty.
    I often see GMs get into the habit of only really rewarding XP for combat, and the occasional doling out of XP for "roleplaying" whatever that means. Maybe not every GM does this, but this happens a lot, at least from what I've seen.

    With this new Quest Point system, I hope to make character progression easier and more straightforward, and cut out a lot of bs that often comes with XP.

    Anyways, what do you guys think of this? Does it seem like a good plan, or are you now shaking your head in doubt and cringe? Would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

    In dnd combat does not gives XP.
    An encounter gives xp only if it was needed for the objective you had.
    It is a rule people understands poorly.
    Encounters can be tons of things that are not fighting: technically if you go see a grumpy titan that lost its ability to speak and have to interrogate him for your quest of finding the flour you need to build a bread wall to stop the world from collapsing on itself it is an encounter and you would logically be rewarded.
    Since crs are quite arbitrary for any non combat or trap encounter you can decide easily to make the players gain exactly the amount of xp you want them to gain in order for them to gain the level you want them to be at. (just pick some of the encounters that mattered to you then give them the values you need for the players to gain the level at the moment you want)
    Some dnd editions have no cr xp calculations for encounters and instead the encounter directly brings a specific amount of xp in those it is even easier to pick the rate at which the characters are gaining levels.
    Then there is some systems where xp is per session directly and not related to the rate at which you solve issues (in those often xp is used directly to buy powers instead of using levels).
    Last edited by noob; 2021-11-12 at 07:19 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanFighter View Post
    Stuff and stuff.
    So, you change XP to QP and add in extra steps to make combat exasperating?

    Seems like something that just seems overcomplicating with hate on combat because: reasons.

    Not sure why peeps feel the need to re-invent the wheel.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanFighter View Post
    Look, honestly when I first made this thread, I had forgotten that milestone XP was a thing.

    And yeah I do try to run sandbox games mostly. I do try to include various plots and subplots in my setting, but I leave my players free to choose whether they want to pursue them or not. I have so many plots going on in my setting by now, I have forgotten some of them (where did I put my notes!? Ah!) and yeah some of these plots have been resolved already, but there is still so much more to go, and I just keep coming up with more and more ideas over time (yay more quest points)

    I just never liked the idea of milestones because it seems like to me the players are only rewarded with levels when they "follow along the rails"
    My rails go everywhere when I GM. Like, everywhere. In fact, it is more like a spider's web than a railroad.
    Yeah that’s my problem with milestone. I always see so many people saying it’s great and I just think it assumes a railroad structure. Either that or no structure at all, if it’s the kind where the GM arbitrarily decides it’s time to level up when it feels like an adventure has happened.

    To be clear I think that’s perfectly functional, it works. It just doesn’t make use of the really quite excellent technology of experience points as an incentive system to encourage a certain kind of gameplay and narrative experience.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quest Points Instead Of XP

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    That's actually exactly what I do, just dropping out the "X experience points" math. You get some fraction of a level each session, unless everyone agrees that it was a wasted session (in which case there are bigger issues, and this has never happened). It's predictable for everyone, doesn't put incentives on "following the DM's quest line" or "kill lots of things", and is, most importantly, really really really easy to manage. I don't have to decide how much a given quest/milestone is worth or what counts as a milestone. I don't have to keep track of encounters. It's basically ungameable. It results in players being incentivised to do things they consider fun. Which is win, for me.
    "We do nothing, and don't consider it wasted. One level fraction please."

    Just kidding of course. I like this idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •