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Thread: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
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2021-11-13, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
Mmm. Maybe instead of implementing ogre strength as a +STR modifier, do something like "if you start with less than 17 STR, your STR becomes 17." That way, your ogre is equally strong with the strongest non-ogre of that level, but not stronger. (A bit like how Tortles are guaranteed a high AC just for being a Tortle, but it doesn't break bounded accuracy because it doesn't stack with armor.)
Of course, that only works if the intention is to have average ogre strength. If the player wants to be exceptionally strong for an ogre, like how the human barbarian is exceptionally strong for a human, that's not gonna work.
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2021-11-13, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
The underlying principle is if you;
- are selecting a race because it gives a specific +bonus to a stat you want, or
- are not using a race because it lacks a specific +bonus to a stat you want
At the end of the day, the mechanics of the Tasha's floating ASI and custom lineage system are only about min/max'ing.Last edited by Zhorn; 2021-11-13 at 11:28 PM. Reason: typo
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2021-11-13, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
I don't think its helpful to call anyone who makes vaguely 'good' decisions about how to allocate their stats a power gamer. But I do think that a player who feels that a character concept is unworkable because of a missing +1 is definitionally a player who cares a lot about optimization, or, in other words, a power gamer.
This isn't a bad thing, to be clear.
But the truth is, for most of the major races, there weren't really any 'bad' race/class combos. Half-Orc Sorcerer? Well, they can use that intimidation better than a barbarian or fighter, they really want a durability bonus, and sorcerers are arguably better suited for buffing than anything, which makes the marginally lower Charisma irrelevant. Gnome Barbarian? Spell resistance is amazing on a barbarian, and the various cantrips you can get are great too. You can't go for a GWM build, but reckless can compensate for the slight amount of accuracy you're missing, and TWF barbarians are totally viable.
Basically what I'm saying here is that generally "off-brand" race choices underperformed (slightly) in the core of the archetype, but also tended to have fewer weaknesses elsewhere, and even from a pure powergamer perspective there's an argument for going off brand. The only races you don't want to go off brand with are things like Dragonborn which is just flatly undertuned. Or maybe monk, which is a tad MAD.
Either way, now if you really want to have the max possible stat at level 1, you need a custom lineage with a half-feat that boosts your primary stat. If having the max possible starting stat at level 1 was so important to you before, its still important right now, right? So then your options, mechanically, are incredibly constrained.
I think this is bad design.
I'm not opposed to the custom lineage rule in principle, I just think its poorly implemented, and I also don't like new races getting gutted of any features that were deemed "cultural"
Your friend isn't making sense to me.
DMs don't need to powergame because they control everything. A DM who's trying to manipulate the rules to effect the players can just have rocks fall and kill everyone.
What DMs should do, is try to cultivate a specific feel that is enjoyable for everyone at the table. Happy players, happy DM (and the reverse, of course).Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2021-11-13, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
I've occasionally thought if there would be a problem simply saying: This race is balanced around starting the game at level X, they have 1 fewer ASI. Where X is like 4 or something. Sure you can't play an Ogre at level 1. Fine. But with some finagling I don't think such races would break anything if they were implemented at a specific level.
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2021-11-13, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
Let's expand on this a little further. Assuming the standard array at level 1: a High Elf wizard is powergaming, since it can get a 16 in Int and a 16 in Dex. A Wood Elf ranger is powergaming, since it can get a 16 in Dex and a 16 in Wis. Playing a human period is powergaming. A Dwarven fighter is powergaming. A Half-Orc barbarian is powergaming. A Gnome wizard - you get the point, you're essentially saying that playing any classical fantasy archetype is powergaming.
I don't necessarily disagree with the point you're trying to make, but I do think that you've set the bar a bit low.The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
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2021-11-13, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
In theory, you could probably create a balanced race that started out with +3/+2 stats but was really lacking in other areas. Something like:
Half-Ogre Traits
Ability Score Increase
Your Strength score increases by 3, and another score of your choice increases by 2
Ribbon
tiny ribbon ability
The DPR nerds would love it, but pure stats aren't the end-all be-all, and its arguable that something like Vhuman would still be a lot stronger here for a lot of conceptsMake Martials CoolAgain.
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2021-11-13, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
The concept that “race doesn’t predetermine what you are good at” causes people to be outraged and claim that they are being “force fed politics” doesn’t have anything to do with the book. {Scrubbed}
Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-11-14 at 03:59 AM.
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2021-11-13, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
Except it breaks point buy values. If you're guaranteed to have 17 no matter what you do, you can dump Str, get 17 anyway, and have extra 9 points (or 1/3 of the standard PB value) to spread out between other abilities compared to other characters who also want high Str, but picked a race without such unfair advantage.
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2021-11-13, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
OP, please see above quote for one of the reasons there is contention around this book.
WotC made some changes to races to fix a problem that did not exist. They did this presumably for economic reasons, to appease some very vocal people online,
{Scrubbed}
I've got nothing against the book and I don't own it. Personally, half-orcs are my go-to race to play and if I can now choose a skill instead of being stuck with Intimidation, great! But beyond the book, I would prefer that WotC not kow-tow to online concern-mongers. Since they are a business, they probably will. So my next wish is that the fandom doesn't get so wrapped up in this that they start tearing each other apart. Also unlikely, but a guy can dream...Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-12-10 at 05:18 AM.
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2021-11-13, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate TashaÂ’s?
Why not have a High-Elf Wizard with 14 Int, 14 Dex, and use your extra points elsewhere?
But also you've explained my point arguably better than I could; Look how easy D&D is, where if you just follow what the book says, you'll come up with a good character without even trying. You don't need to tryhard to make a good character. It just happens.
'Oh yeah, well I want to play a Half-Orc Wizard.'
That's fine. You're not doing what the book clearly says, and now the highest you can get in Int is 14/15 (+2). That's still perfectly fine. If you look at the MM and the DMG, you'll see that a +2 in your attack/damage stat is...
'That's unfair! As a Half-Orc I want my Int to be 16 at Level 1! I need to increase the rolls on my d20s by 5% and I need to increase my damage by 1 or my character sucks.'
Species however, does.
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2021-11-13, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
{Scrubbed}
With all that said, even as someone who is sympathetic to the notion that DND has a lot of legacy tropes that are vaguely racist in origin and should be altered.... I don't think custom lineages and such were a particularly well-conceived of a "fix." It neither addresses the core problems (which WOTC has been slowly working on for a while with varied success) nor does it improve the game in terms of mechanics or flavor.Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-12-10 at 05:19 AM.
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2021-11-13, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
This is my understanding of your post:
A player that attempts effect their Will in the game world is assessed the label Powergamer, which based off this thread alone, is an appellation that has been assigned normative value by some.
A DM, by dint of having Unlimited Power, definitionally, can't be a Powergamer.https://external-content.duckduckgo....6pid%3DApi&f=1
If effecting one's will is the working definition of Powergamer, and DMs are always able to effect their will, shouldn't, definitionally, all DMs be classified as Powergamers?Last edited by Thunderous Mojo; 2021-11-13 at 11:34 PM.
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2021-11-13, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
Elves "trust in diplomacy and compromise to resolve differences before they escalate to violence." Where is that spelled out mechanically in the rules? Are they barred from being Barbarians? No? Oh, is that because those descriptions are just broad generalisations to kickstart characterization? Most Elves are slender and graceful, most live 700 years, most "love nature and magic, art and artistry, music and poetry." That doesn't mean you can't play a fat, slovenly, diabetic, crass, fool of an elf with no taste who won't live past 300 due to lifestyle choices.
An Ogre is 10" tall and 1,000 lbs. An elf is 6"/145lb. Yet both have the exact same maximum STR and CON scores. The Ogre starts out stronger, but they both end up able to can carry the same amount of stuff, have the same leverage trying to move a boulder, have equal lung capacity, etc. How exactly does that make a single bit of sense? Oh, because this is a fantasy game where people shoot fire out of their fingers, live thousands of years, talk to literal Gods, travel to parallel universes, turn into a Cthulthu man by getting tentacled in the ear...
I don't care about "muscle cross sections," because magic exists. Elves are explicitly a magical race. How is a 150lb Elf able to exert the same force and leverage as a 1000lb Ogre? *shrug* Because magic. This is a fantasy game. Strong Elves are like Superman or something, they may not look big but they're unnaturally strong.
Even assuming your theoretical Ogre is just imbalanced for a PC, core Stoutheart Halflings and Half-Orcs have the same +1 CON mod so the exact same maximum starting and ending stats. One is 45lbs and the other 250, but they can both "quaff an entire stein of ale in one go" and presumably have the same fortitude as far as drunkenness goes. They have the same ability to shrug off damage (HP). Endurance checks like marching or holding your breath can maybe make sense due to difference in body size accounting for less demand over the same period of time, but just give it up. This stuff doesn't "make sense" when try to apply physics or physiology. Just let it go that this is all literally otherworldly.Last edited by Captbrannigan; 2021-11-14 at 12:24 AM.
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2021-11-13, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-11-13, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
DMs create and run the game, they don't play in it. DMs aren't players, they're not 'gamers.'
Powergaming doesn't have to be a bad thing, and doesn't have to conflict with other elements of fun like camaraderie or atmosphere. But you can't deny that from a mechanical perspective, claiming "I would never have considered playing a half-orc wizard without +1 to a stat" is a statement made by someone who cares about their character being as strong as possible.
The statement: "I am not someone who cares about character power so I need the character concept I want to play to [be more powerful]" is completely nonsensical.Last edited by strangebloke; 2021-11-13 at 11:56 PM.
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2021-11-14, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
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2021-11-14, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate TashaÂ’s?
For starters, the PBH recommends that "Intelligence should be your highest stat, followed by Constitution or Dexterity" for wizards. Why not do as the PHB recommends?
And you've proved my point too - your definition is such a low bar that it's completely trivial to pass. In fact, it's impossible for a human not to.The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
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2021-11-14, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate TashaÂ’s?
Your point is literally what I'm saying. Why would I disagree with you?
That is my point. D&D is trivial. Power-gaming is a waste of time. It's not necessary. Tasha's enables power-gaming.
Ergo, Tasha's makes the game even more trivial than it already is, and that's why people don't like it.
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2021-11-14, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
Honestly your post was a non sequitur. You even mentioned strong elves. That is something with 0 relevance to my posts where I talked about a weak 10 Str Ogre, a weak 8 Str Elf, a barely strong 14 Str Ogre, and a strong 16 Str Human. Whatever your point was, it was not relevant to my post. Just in case you need to hear it "yes, Elves can be stronger than a Ogre".
Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-11-14 at 12:37 AM.
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2021-11-14, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
The original statement I was replying to was along the lines of 'Tasha's opens up new options because previously if a race didn't have a bonus in a class' prime stat they were unplayable.'
I wouldn't call someone a power gamer who put their class' primary stat as their highest one and then after racial stat boost it became 16+.
It is being a power gamer to place a rule on themselves that they can only play a character who who has a 16+ in their main stat.If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.
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2021-11-14, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate TashaÂ’s?
But...having a 16 in your primary stat really isn't powergaming. That's setting the bar so low that the phrase itself is literally meaningless. And while D&D is not what I'd call a difficult game, depending on the DM, you are encouraged to have some level of competency. If people cry foul because Tasha's allows you to remain highly competent while also making whatever unique builds they want, then people need to redefine what they call "powergaming".
I know what powergaming is, I do a fair bit of Powergaming. Powergaming is making an Order of Scribes X / Tempest Cleric 2 with no real reason for Cleric outside of getting Channel Divinity to maximize Lightning and Thunder damage. Powergaming is making a Tabaxi Monk/Fighter/Elk Totem Barbarian with Mobile and Longstrider for a 90ft movement speed, and going out of your way to get Boots of Speed, a Potion of Speed, and the Eagle Whistle to increase it even further.Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane
Fun Fact: A monk in armor loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement, but keep all of their other abilities, including subclass features, and Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks. Make a Monk in Fullplate with a Greatsword >=D
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2021-11-14, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
They don't actually have proficiency in Perception if you use the Tasha's rules. Their special eyes gives them proficiency in.... something.
And living 7x longer is also, not actually demonstrated in the mechanics, for the record. It actually has less mechanical influence than +2 dex. So we're left with, can't sleep, and a bonus against charm. Woo. Real interesting and divergent species ya got there.Last edited by Dienekes; 2021-11-14 at 12:40 AM.
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2021-11-14, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
Yeah, I'd say that's a divergent species from Humans. They also have Darkvision as well, which does count for a thing. Humans are unable to Trance, do not have Fey Ancestry, do not live 7x longer, and do not have Darkvision. If you give a Human those traits, they are no longer Human.
Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane
Fun Fact: A monk in armor loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement, but keep all of their other abilities, including subclass features, and Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks. Make a Monk in Fullplate with a Greatsword >=D
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2021-11-14, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate TashaÂ’s?
Well that's because D&D is easy.
The baseline for 'most' characters is already above what people actually need to play the game. You can have a 16 in your primary stat so easily, that people don't even realise they don't even need a 16 in their primary stat. Who told you that a 16 was necessary to have a good character?
That's setting the bar so low that the phrase itself is literally meaningless.
you are encouraged to have some level of competency.
Having a 16+, in your main stat, at Level 1, is more than competent, more than what-is-necessary.
If you have something over and above what is necessary, you're power-gaming...And yes, the bar for what-is-necessary, actually is very low by design. That's why Deadly encounters, aren't.
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2021-11-14, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
Sanity Check: You do realize some consider that a small difference? Some expect or desire more divergence?
Now I realize I am a bit of an outlier with wanting things like Warforged, Undead, Myconoids, etc, however I can tell that Dienekes recongizes Elfs are still technically different from Humans. I can also tell Dienekes was using sarcasm to point out they were not satisfied with how little divergence there was between Elves and Humans.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-11-14 at 12:57 AM.
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2021-11-14, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
And here we go back to the earlier point I was discussing with OldTrees. I don't think, even ignoring the Tasha rules Elves are different enough from humans. Most of the time the Elf Wizard will play the same as the Human Wizard. Those traits, are all pretty boring. This is a human with pointy ears and some minor oddities that are barely relevant for anything. Perfect world, I want the races to play way more different. I want an elf to actually mechanically feel like someone touched with the grace of Seldarine. I want mechanics to show what living 700 years does to a mortal mind. I want races to go way the other direction where an Elven Barbarian plays mechanically different than a Dwarven Barbarian or a Human Barbarian or an Orc Barbarian. Wildly beautifully different.
And your side celebrates in blurring what few distinctions we have.
Now, as I've admitted above, are these distinctions the most interesting mechanical differentiation that WotC could have created?
No. They're barely above where they are with Tashas. But they are above.
But again, 5e is terrible at this. So I'm not actually a Tasha hater, but if you're removing a feature that is a mechanical representation of the description of the elves it's not nothing. It might be inconvenient. It might be more fun for you personally to do it. And it's your game, do whatever you want. But this "the mechanics that are put in to directly represent the races own description aren't actually real racial mechanics" is pretty silly. That's exactly what they are. You just don't like them. Which is fine.
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2021-11-14, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate Tasha’s?
A distinct difference. (No judgment intended.) I would add there is nothing wrong with being a power gamer. However, there is that line where power gaming becomes cheesy which is another way of saying being a munchkin. The Tasha ability score rules facilitates munchkinism, and that is what ticks some people off. That is where you get mountain dwarf wizards. It is certainly possible a non-munchkin player really wants to play a mountain dwarf wizard for generic gaming community socially acceptable reasons, but because of the game mechanics involved the "reek" of munchkinism taints the idea. This is also where Custom Lineage comes in. A character's race is just flavor text. All that matters is getting the pluses in the right place. Optimization/Power gaming is not in itself a bad thing. People get angst about it when it's too easy to get anything/everything you want.
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2021-11-14, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate TashaÂ’s?
Your bar is low, but powergaming is relative to the game being played. If D&D is trivial, than trivially making a character is not powergaming - it's the default mode of character creation. Powergaming - by definition - can only occur if you go out of your way to make it happen.
We're in agreement in that regard, but....
We've already established that it's literally impossible for the weakest race in the game to not meet that definition. Your definition just plain doesn't work, my friend.
By that logic, using an ASI is powergaming.The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
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2021-11-14, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-11-14, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do people hate TashaÂ’s?
Experience. A 14 in your primary stat ONLY works if you are a character that makes attack rolls. A 14 will fail you if you're playing someone who uses saving throws, especially once you reach level 5. At level 5, a PC with a 16 to their casting stat will have a save DC of 14, and it will remain a 14 until level 8. Tanarii actually put it really well in a previous post. I have tried out playing spell casters with a 14 in their casting stat, I have had players do the same thing, and my experience has been that monsters tended to succeed on their saving throws on average. Which again, makes sense. If your Spell DC is a 14, and the average roll on a d20 is 10.5, rounded up to 11 because DnD doesn't use decimals, then monsters will start succeeding on their saving throws pretty often.
The people at WotC did a fine job at balancing the game so that martial characters can get through to level 20 just fine with a 14. I actually find that a 16 in Strength is more than enough to carry you all the way to level 16. But they did a terrible job balancing spell save DCs in the same way, unless spells are supposed to fail more on average than they
The bar may be low, but its not that low.
As for competence, it fully depends on what you're playing. If you're playing a martial character, then a 14 in your primary stat is perfectly fine. AC scales slowly while attack bonuses scale quickly. The highest AC in the game is a 25, on a CR 30 creature, but by the time you face that you'd have a base attack bonus of +8 with a 14 in your primary attack stat. And that +8 can be increased via spells and abilities like Bless and the Magic Weapon spell. You can boost that +8 to a +11, lowering the number you need to roll from a 17 to a 14, and add in the d4 from bless, and you end up needing to roll about an 11.5 on a d20. That is very slightly above average, but well within the range of possibility.
Now compare that to a saving throw. With a 14 in your primary stat, your save is going to be a DC 17. Same creature with the 25 AC has a +9 to Wisdom and Charisma saves, a +10 to Con and Str saves, and a +0 for the rest. In order to succeed on that Wisdom save, which most spells use a Wisdom save, they need to roll a 9 or higher. That is well below the average roll of a d20, which means this creature is going to succeed on a majority of those saves. Now you can make the argument of just target a different ability, but here's the issue. Most of the really, really good spells in the game target Dexterity or Wisdom. And Wisdom is used for nearly all of the spells that have a major, debilitating effect.
Now obviously that is the most extreme example, but things really don't change, no matter which way you look at it. If you're primarily playing a caster without a 16 in your casting stat, you're going to find your spells work a little less than half the time all the way until you hit level 8. And by then, most campaigns are finished. Tell me, about how many players do you think will find that experience to be fun? When a little over half the time their spells simply fail?Last edited by sithlordnergal; 2021-11-14 at 02:02 AM.
Never let the fluff of a class define the personality of a character. Let Clerics be Atheist, let Barbarians be cowardly or calm, let Druids hate nature, and let Wizards know nothing about the arcane
Fun Fact: A monk in armor loses Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, and Unarmored Movement, but keep all of their other abilities, including subclass features, and Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks. Make a Monk in Fullplate with a Greatsword >=D