David Eddings' Elenium and Tamuli series: amount of church knights

[farothel]

In the Elenium and Tamuli series of David Eddings there are four orders of church knights. In the Elenium novels the numbers are kept vague and I thought at most two-three thousand in each order, but in the Tamuli novels they put the amount at 25000 knights in each of the four orders.

Now I'm wondering if that is actually possible demographically. All those knights are nobles (except in Thalessia, but there you have a more limited population), and even if the average knight serves for 50 years (which is quite a long time, as Lord Abriel was 70 and that was considered exceptional), that means you have to get 500 knights per year just to keep the numbers up and as they are in a violent profession, 750 is a more likely number. That seems like a lot to find in the aristocracy.

Also training them sounds like too much. For regular training (horsemanship, swordfighting, etc) it's possible, but Sephrenia was the only instructor for magic for the Pandion order (at least that's how it sounds like to me in the books). Not every knight is well versed in magic, but even training classes of 100 for a number of years (you don't learn magic in a few weeks, it's clearly mentioned) would strain a single teacher. Self-study can take care of some of that, but not everything I feel.

And lastly the few chapterhouses I've seen described are holding a few 100 knights at most, so where do you put all the others.

Spoiler: might be a spoiler

Show

When they ride on to the Basilicum in the first novel of the Tamuli series and they are attacked by those ancient Lamorks, Berit is ordered to get all knights from the Demos chapterhouse (which was one of the big ones if I understood corectly), but it seems like only a few 100 at most, and not thousands.

Did I miss something here, or are there inconsistencies? Maybe I studied history a bit too much, where European military orders only had a few thousand of knights at most. They often had other members (sometimes only 10% of the members of an order were knights), but in these novels all 25000 are knights.

[hamishspence]

It is a bit iffy.

Things to remember:

Noble titles go all the way down to Baronet (Kalten is a baronet).

You only (theoretically, outside of Thalesia) need to be of noble birth to be a Church Knight - you don't actually need a title. Thus, a portion of Church Knights will be younger sons rather than title holders.

Church knights have (since the first Zemoch invasion) been allowed to have families.

[Saintheart]

Also training them sounds like too much. For regular training (horsemanship, swordfighting, etc) it's possible, but Sephrenia was the only instructor for magic for the Pandion order (at least that's how it sounds like to me in the books). Not every knight is well versed in magic, but even training classes of 100 for a number of years (you don't learn magic in a few weeks, it's clearly mentioned) would strain a single teacher. Self-study can take care of some of that, but not everything I feel.

Maybe self-study does take care of a lot of it. From memory their magic is based a lot around somatic and verbal components, maybe they just get given a bunch of scraps of paper and told to go practice until it starts to work, with Sephrenia checking in on each over time. I don't think it's just Sephrenia to all four orders, either - the Genidians in particular seem to call on the Troll Gods a lot, which Sephrenia doesn't like if I remember right.

Also, do you even need to be of noble birth to be a Church Knight? Kurik was Sparhawk's lifelong squire, I don't think he had any title at all. Maybe a big portion of the order's number counts the squires as well.

[hamishspence]

Also, do you even need to be of noble birth to be a Church Knight? Kurik was Sparhawk's lifelong squire, I don't think he had any title at all. Maybe a big portion of the order's number counts the squires as well.

He's not a knight though.

In the first trilogy, Vanion says , approximately, "he would have made a great knight, but I don't make the rules." A point is made of how the Thalesians bend the rules by having their King give noble titles to people who aren't noble by birth.


In the second trilogy however, Sparhawk says that it was at Kurik's own insistence that they didn't make him a knight - that they tried to, and he said no - and that Sparhawk plans on making sure that all Kurik's sons do get knighted.



A point is also made in the first trilogy of how having a squire is something of an archaism, and that "the rest of us can get along without one".

[Traab]

In the Elenium and Tamuli series of David Eddings there are four orders of church knights. In the Elenium novels the numbers are kept vague and I thought at most two-three thousand in each order, but in the Tamuli novels they put the amount at 25000 knights in each of the four orders.

Now I'm wondering if that is actually possible demographically. All those knights are nobles (except in Thalessia, but there you have a more limited population), and even if the average knight serves for 50 years (which is quite a long time, as Lord Abriel was 70 and that was considered exceptional), that means you have to get 500 knights per year just to keep the numbers up and as they are in a violent profession, 750 is a more likely number. That seems like a lot to find in the aristocracy.

Also training them sounds like too much. For regular training (horsemanship, swordfighting, etc) it's possible, but Sephrenia was the only instructor for magic for the Pandion order (at least that's how it sounds like to me in the books). Not every knight is well versed in magic, but even training classes of 100 for a number of years (you don't learn magic in a few weeks, it's clearly mentioned) would strain a single teacher. Self-study can take care of some of that, but not everything I feel.

And lastly the few chapterhouses I've seen described are holding a few 100 knights at most, so where do you put all the others.

Spoiler: might be a spoiler

Show

When they ride on to the Basilicum in the first novel of the Tamuli series and they are attacked by those ancient Lamorks, Berit is ordered to get all knights from the Demos chapterhouse (which was one of the big ones if I understood corectly), but it seems like only a few 100 at most, and not thousands.

Did I miss something here, or are there inconsistencies? Maybe I studied history a bit too much, where European military orders only had a few thousand of knights at most. They often had other members (sometimes only 10% of the members of an order were knights), but in these novels all 25000 are knights.

There are chapter houses everywhere. In every major town. Think of them like police stations. They are there to maintain order, to handle problems such as banditry, and stuff like that. They each have their own trainers, including in magic. Sephrina was the teacher at our main characters chapter house, and iirc she had the respect of all the other teachers for reasons which got revealed later. She wasnt teaching the entire pandion order. I believe she was the instructor at the main chapter house for the order which is why she was so well known. After all its the same chapter the commander of the order resides at so it must be important. I do agree that the numbers seem a bit off though as that is a lot of nobles per kingdom. Im aware that we are dealing with those who are of noble blood but may not hold a title themselves, like third sons and such. I think Eddings was working under the heir and the spare model that was popular at the time where you had the heir to the title, the second son who was there as backup and future sons were expected to join the military or priesthood (or be a church knight and do both i guess lol)

[Dienekes]

Very likely Eddings did not take the time to do the math.

But without giving us the actual population sizes of the various kingdoms we can’t really say how much they could sustain.

If they were roughly comparable to high medieval Europe, the issue as I see it isn’t necessarily one of total number of holy knights but of total number of orders. While it’s true the Knights Templar maxed at about 2000 knights and the Teutons at about 1500. But those were only the big ones. There were hundreds maybe thousands of holy orders. Some only of about a dozen knights, others almost reaching a thousand. Getting 100,000 over a whole continent seems doable.

Getting them all to agree with each other to unite in four perfectly symmetrically numbered holy orders without the strains of disagreement over the orders role in society or over religious interpretations seems altogether less likely.

[hamishspence]

I think Eddings was working under the heir and the spare model that was popular at the time where you had the heir to the title, the second son who was there as backup and future sons were expected to join the military or priesthood (or be a church knight and do both i guess lol)

In the sequel trilogy, most of the protagonists are revealed as actual title holders (so, by implication, the "heirs" rather than the "spares".

The liveried herald continued his introductions, laboriously embellishing their individual titles as he presented them. Oscagne had quite obviously done his homework very thoroughly, and the herald dusted off seldom-used ornaments of rank in his introductory remarks. Kalten's nearly-forgotten baronetcy emerged. Bevier was exposed as a viscount, Tynian as a duke, and Ulath as an earl. Most surprising of all perhaps was the revelation that Berit, plain, earnest Berit, had been concealing the title of marquis in his luggage.

[Saintheart]

Getting them all to agree with each other to unite in four perfectly symmetrically numbered holy orders without the strains of disagreement over the orders role in society or over religious interpretations seems altogether less likely.

I think the way Eddings got around that was to use the fact the Church Knights all used Styric magic also had the magic power of making them a lot less worried about heresy than the average churchman, along with being able to lawfully have families, and this therefore makes them all Dude Abides types after finishing up at Hogwarts. The Elene God didn't even allow his followers to even acknowledge the existence of the Styric gods, and it was only because said other deities weren't afraid to dish out magic to their followers that the Church Knights were permitted to use the same powers, taught by Styrics. And mind you, they don't actually agree on everything; relations between the orders are pretty chilly at the opening of the Elenium, it's the threat of someone nasty getting the Archprelacy that tells them all to start playing nice with one another.

[hamishspence]

I think the way Eddings got around that was to use the fact the Church Knights all used Styric magic also had the magic power of making them a lot less worried about heresy than the average churchman, along with being able to lawfully have families, and this therefore makes them all Dude Abides types after finishing up at Hogwarts.

Yup - timeline-wise, the Church Knights were founded sometime between the 15th and 18th century in-universe (the present century is around about the 30th).

The Church itself is much, much older - suggested to have existed in some form as much as 4000 years before "the present" (the "princes of the Church" are supposed to have ordered the assassination of the Lamork hero Drychtnath around that time).

I would speculate that it was the unification of the Elene Church, under Sarathi, the first Archprelate, that was "year zero" of the calendar, since it's stated the Church was unified "almost 3000 years ago".

Regarding the Styrics training the Church Knights, it's implied to have been the case from their founding.

Which takes place not too long before Otha takes control of Zemoch (Otha was born in the 11th century, spent centuries training under Azash, took control of Zemoch in the 20th century, and invaded the rest of Eosia in the 25th century before being stopped by the Church Knights and the armies of the Elene monarchs.)

I'd speculate that the Styrics had an idea of what Otha was going to do (he'd already been around for a few centuries), and agreed to train the newly founded Church Knights because they knew that training would be needed after Otha unified Zemoch.

The Church Knights themselves were actually founded in order to continue the war against Rendor (which began in the 15th century, and lasted some 3 centuries - the Elene Kings grew tired of prosecuting the war, but the Church wanted to continue). I could see the Styrics not caring at all about the war in Rendor, but caring very much about Otha.


"Them being allowed to have families" took place around the 25th-26th century, after the Zemoch invasion.

Sephrenia presented herself at the Pandion "Mother-house" (the primary training centre and base for the Order) as an instructor, in the 27th century.

[LibraryOgre]

Gah, 25,000, each? That is a lot. As noted, they can have families, which makes it a bit easier, and the countries are pretty sizable; I can't find any maps on-line with enough resolution to read the scale clearly, but Cardos to Chryellos looks to be about 500 miles, which would make the total size of Elenia about 125,000 square miles... between New Mexico and Montana, or the size of Norway, Ivory Coast, or Poland. That works out to about 1 knight per 5 square miles... small holdings, to be sure. But also recall that the younger sons of nobles will also hold a title... a baron's son might be baronet, but that might be enough to qualify.

As to the spellcasting, it is not just Sephrenia... she's the Pandonian teacher, and instructs them in the spells of Arphael. The other orders have their own teachers, and use their own Styric deity. I'd be inclined to say that there are also lesser teachers... Sephrenia may be the head, but she may have other Styrics, or knights, who do a lot of the basic instruction.

As to Kurik? I'd be willing to bet his lack of knighthood is a little bit of both. If you want someone to be a noble, it's pretty easy for most monarchs to ennoble someone, especially if they technically own all the land... carve off a chunk of your own lands, or the lands given to someone else, say "You're now baronet of Bogwallow", and, whoops, suddenly you can be knighted. Kurik may have resisted, but I doubt the Thalesians were alone in doing this.

I always felt it was interesting that neither Lamorkand or Cammora had knightly orders, though, and often wondered why.

[Traab]

Kurik was a different matter, he was the squire of the crown champion or whatever sparhawks official title inherited from his father and his father before him and therefore could not be knighted because knights arent squires and the crown champion has a traditional squire. He was well established to have more than earned a rank and knighthood through sheer skill and experience but was like "Lol nope, im sparhawks squire and thats that." The church knights dont HAVE squires normally so he was an archaic anomaly but a respected one.

[Sapphire Guard]

Bearing in mind that it has been a long time since I've read these ones...

Sephrenia isn't the only instructor, she's just the most senior and respected. And the knights are mostly not pure mages, they're getting the basic self defence rather than the decades long study version(with some exceptions) What they're getting is 'here are a few useful tricks, these are the basic principles
here is what to do if attacked by this kind of mage, but unless you have particular talents in an area, you don't need more than that (and I'm holding back the scariest stuff so you can't use it to turn on us)

The Church Knight appear do double duty as church knights and knights from their respective nations (Ulath still considers himself as owing loyalty to the King of Thalesia) and you appear to be able to keep your titles. If you have eight sons, all of them can be church knights while also functioning as knights of their ruler. So if every knight in Europe is part of one of these orders, it doesn't seem impossible. Sell it to the rulers as 'we will give them super training and give them back to you still loyal in exchange for X amount of service that does not affect your interests.

[farothel]

Good points everybody raised. There is one thing I'm not sure about and that's the magic. While indeed all of the orders have their own teacher (they all 'pray' to a different god after all), it is sort of mentioned that all Pandions pray to Aphrael, meaning that all teachers have to be priests of Aphrael. And while indeed some of the instruction can be done by other knights, like the language training (although Sephrenia did mention she tried to teach Kalten without much success), at some point you need someone of skill to actually progress.

[hamishspence]

In the sequel trilogy it's implied that only 20% of the Pandion Order have any real skill in magic. When Tynian brings 5,000 Pandions to Matherion, it's commented later that the remaining 20,000-odd can't do much in the way of contacting Aphrael, because he's brought all the skilled ones.

‘I just thought of something.’

‘What now?’

‘It just occurred to me that Tynian may have been a little unselective when he was gathering those knights he brought back from Chyrellos.’

‘He brought the best men he could lay his hands on.’

‘I think that’s the problem. I’ve been wondering why I haven’t been getting any reports from Komier. I don’t think Tynian left him a single Pandion who has any more skill than Anosian does. There aren’t all that many of you who can reach out more than a few leagues, and Tynian seems to have inadvertently commandeered them all.’

‘Could you make any sense at all about what Anosian was trying to tell you?’

‘It’s something about breathing. Somebody’s having problems with it. I’ll run on down there after we talk with Itagne. Maybe Anosian can be coherent if I’m in the same room with him.’

‘Be nice.’

The black-armored Sir Heldin returned to rejoin Patriarch Bergsten at the head of the column.

‘Any luck?’ Bergsten asked him.

Heldin shook his head. ‘Sir Tynian was very thorough,’ he rumbled in his deep basso. ‘He winnowed through the ranks of the Pandion Order like a man panning for gold. I think he took just about everybody who can even pronounce the Styric language.’

‘You know the spells.’

‘Yes, but Aphrael can’t hear me. My voice is pitched too low for her ears.’

‘That raises some very interesting theological points,’ Bergsten mused.

[Aedilred]

In the Elenium and Tamuli series of David Eddings there are four orders of church knights. In the Elenium novels the numbers are kept vague and I thought at most two-three thousand in each order, but in the Tamuli novels they put the amount at 25000 knights in each of the four orders.

Now I'm wondering if that is actually possible demographically. All those knights are nobles (except in Thalessia, but there you have a more limited population), and even if the average knight serves for 50 years (which is quite a long time, as Lord Abriel was 70 and that was considered exceptional), that means you have to get 500 knights per year just to keep the numbers up and as they are in a violent profession, 750 is a more likely number. That seems like a lot to find in the aristocracy.

Also training them sounds like too much. For regular training (horsemanship, swordfighting, etc) it's possible, but Sephrenia was the only instructor for magic for the Pandion order (at least that's how it sounds like to me in the books). Not every knight is well versed in magic, but even training classes of 100 for a number of years (you don't learn magic in a few weeks, it's clearly mentioned) would strain a single teacher. Self-study can take care of some of that, but not everything I feel.

And lastly the few chapterhouses I've seen described are holding a few 100 knights at most, so where do you put all the others.

Spoiler: might be a spoiler

Show

When they ride on to the Basilicum in the first novel of the Tamuli series and they are attacked by those ancient Lamorks, Berit is ordered to get all knights from the Demos chapterhouse (which was one of the big ones if I understood corectly), but it seems like only a few 100 at most, and not thousands.

Did I miss something here, or are there inconsistencies? Maybe I studied history a bit too much, where European military orders only had a few thousand of knights at most. They often had other members (sometimes only 10% of the members of an order were knights), but in these novels all 25000 are knights.

It's been quite a while since I read the novels and I'm too lazy to open them again to check the details, but were all the 25,000 definitely knights or does that include apprentices, squires, servants, etc. too? If I remember rightly the 25,000 figure comes from the point where the four orders unite to attack the big demon baddy in the Tamuli and one of the grandmasters makes a comment about how "I don't think we need the baggage train to charge too", which might just speak to his impatience but might also imply that only the baggage train is being left behind and there are some non-knights included.

Even so (and taking into account some of the comments above), a total of 100,000 Church Knights seems extremely high. By European medieval standards, 100,000 was a huge army at the best of times: I think only in the east and during the Crusades were such large hordes assembled. If we allow that the relative unity of the Elenic kingdoms permits for a higher level of organisation and cooperation than in western Europe we might be able to say that larger armies are more feasible (although it does raise a question as to why they're needed: in the absence of internecine wars, it's not clear why such a large standing military is needed: the threat from the east seems largely theoretical at the time of the first trilogy at least).

If we take as comparison medieval France, which was the most populous (and one of the most densely-populated) kingdoms in Europe, they were able to field somewhere in the region of 15,000 knights (possibly up to 20,000) during the early stages of the Hundred Years War, specifically, the Crécy campaign. That was noted as being an exceptionally large army for the era and was, on the cusp of the Black Death, also close to the peak of medieval population (although the Great Famine might have cut it from its true peak). Since we've got four church orders all quartered in different kingdoms, and we assume that each of them is France-like, a total of 60,000 - 80,000 therefore seems superficially reasonable. But of course that French army was a feudal army, and those knights, while trained warriors and members of the second estate, are not full-time soldiers and do not comprise a standing army. The question of to what extent the knightly arm of Eosian militaries is outsourced to the Church is debatable (it seems it is at least to some extent) but we should still reasonably expect the number of Church Knights - a specialist combat organisation - to be lower than the equivalent number of feudal knights in real life, who also functioned as a kind of civilian administrator, and were kind of self-supporting, rather than being maintained on a top-down basis.

And of course the suggestion of "four Frances" is OTT in itself. Even if the kingdoms are the size of France, Thalesia is clearly not France-equivalent in its ability to support a large population, and looking at the map nor should Deira be.

Unless, to go back to the earlier point, the civilian and military arms of government are integrated in more of a Roman/Byzantine style than a western European style, and the church knights operate more as a kind of thematic tagmata than historical knightly orders. That would be interesting but if the text supports it it's only going to do so by inference.

Then again, we have some of the terminology which talks about Elenia, for instance, as an "absolute monarchy". We have to tread carefully here because while the age of absolutism is firmly early modern, there were forays into absolutist rule a few hundred years earlier (Richard II and Henry V of England; Philip IV of France, etc.) The idea of an absolutist kingdom being able to raise an army of 25,000 equivalent to knightly quality is not out of the question, so really this turns on our definition of "knight". But it's also clear that the Church Knights, even if part of their function is to support the monarchies of Eosia, are also not the only military force available to them. And all the modes of behaviour and fighting methods of the knights we see is suggestive of medieval-style knights, not some kind of redefined knight-equivalent that just uses the same terminology.

Anyway, even if we do accept the figure of 100,000 as not inherently ridiculous, the ability to project that force in full to a different continent, as is attempted in the Tamuli, certainly is. Armies like that are a nightmare to keep supplied without modern logistics. Most armies of that size were deployed fairly locally to the point of raising, because keeping an army of that size maintained for any length of time would be ruinous both to the local environment and to the kingdom as a whole. Huge armies were raised for the early Crusades, and were transported intercontinentally, but 100,000 was still at the upper limit of those, that figure often included non-combatant camp followers (and certainly included non-knightly combatants) and all the large crusades suffered major casualties en route to their destination, which the Church Knights expedition apparently doesn't.

It's possible that Eddings had in mind earlier sources which overestimated numbers (his last formal education in history would have been in the 1940s) but even so his books - all of them - present a highly "sanitised" view of medieval(-equivalent) warfare, and those figures were always off-base, even if possibly less so than they now look. And while he did put quite a lot of effort into his worldbuilding (see The Rivan Codex) I suspect that he put less effort into the Elenium/Tamuli series in that respect than into the Belgariad/Malloreon, and I also think it's likely that he just eyeballed/handwaved a lot of the more boring details, including realistic demography.

[farothel]

In the sequel trilogy it's implied that only 20% of the Pandion Order have any real skill in magic. When Tynian brings 5,000 Pandions to Matherion, it's commented later that the remaining 20,000-odd can't do much in the way of contacting Aphrael, because he's brought all the skilled ones.

The black-armored Sir Heldin returned to rejoin Patriarch Bergsten at the head of the column.

‘Any luck?’ Bergsten asked him.

Heldin shook his head. ‘Sir Tynian was very thorough,’ he rumbled in his deep basso. ‘He winnowed through the ranks of the Pandion Order like a man panning for gold. I think he took just about everybody who can even pronounce the Styric language.’

‘You know the spells.’

‘Yes, but Aphrael can’t hear me. My voice is pitched too low for her ears.’

‘That raises some very interesting theological points,’ Bergsten mused.

On the same page Heldin also speaks about 'the personal god of the Styric who thaught them the secrets'. That use of THE implies just one person teaching an entire order, as it's also mentioned that all Pandions for instance appeal to Aphrael, just as the other orders have their own god to appeal to. Again, I understand that things like the basics of the language and stuff like that can be done by other knights, but it's still a lot of work for just one person. And they all seem to get the basic instruction, at least far enough to determine if they can learn magic.

[hamishspence]

It's possible (or an artefact of Continuity Drift) that "Pandions pray to Aphrael specifically" was not known, even by them, till very recently. Dolmant, a former Pandion (one of considerable talent, who was earmarked as a possible candidate for Preceptor before transferring out) , who can recognise Aphrael as a deity on sight, nevertheless sees fit to ask Sephrenia who her personal deity is during the first book, and is surprised that Sephrenia's personal deity is a Goddess. When Sparhawk does magic in the first book, it also seems to have much less "prayer" about it.

Though this could be "Dolmant's trying to fake ignorance, around other Churchmen, to conceal the fact that he is an ex-Pandion - and Sephrenia is playing along."

[Traab]

It's possible (or an artefact of Continuity Drift) that "Pandions pray to Aphrael specifically" was not known, even by them, till very recently. Dolmant, a former Pandion (one of considerable talent, who was earmarked as a possible candidate for Preceptor before transferring out) , who can recognise Aphrael as a deity on sight, nevertheless sees fit to ask Sephrenia who her personal deity is during the first book, and is surprised that Sephrenia's personal deity is a Goddess. When Sparhawk does magic in the first book, it also seems to have much less "prayer" about it.

Though this could be "Dolmant's trying to fake ignorance, around other Churchmen, to conceal the fact that he is an ex-Pandion - and Sephrenia is playing along."

Its also a case of willful blindness. The elene church HAS to pretend that they dont know the church knights are technically praying to a heretic goddess for miracles, instead treating them as just magic spells. It was done for their very survival but its such a huge violation of their religious dogma that its very much so a "we dont talk about that" sort of thing. And even seeing church knights use magic is often offensive to the higher ranking members of the church. And yeah im pretty sure the specific god was kept unnamed for whatever reason. Maybe because teaching them to access magic from some faceless being was somehow more acceptable than going "Hey, this little girl who looks all of 9? She is the goddess you pray to for help, her name is aphrael and she owns you all now."

[hamishspence]

I think one of the conditions for allowing the Styrics to train the Church Knights was "the Styric gods don't get the souls of the Church Knights".

It's also why an attempt at killing all of Aphrael's Styric worshippers stood a good chance of effectively killing her as well - because "Church Knight souls aren't counted" for the purposes of a Styric god's power - the Elene god never loses claim to the souls themselves.

[Traab]

I think one of the conditions for allowing the Styrics to train the Church Knights was "the Styric gods don't get the souls of the Church Knights".

It's also why an attempt at killing all of Aphrael's Styric worshippers stood a good chance of effectively killing her as well - because "Church Knight souls aren't counted" for the purposes of a Styric god's power - the Elene god never loses claim to the souls themselves.

Fair point, though she does plenty of poaching by the end of the second series. That actually may be a part of WHY we dont know sephrinas goddess' name right off the bat. By putting that level of distance into the prayer it makes it easier to maintain the separation or something. It gets treated as drawing from a power source, not praying to a deity. I imagine that took a LOT of back room politicking between the elene god and the thousand as both had reason to agree to letting church knights get magic (if they had fallen to otha, the styrics wouldnt have lasted that much longer) but the fact that styric magic is literally praying to the god or goddess you worship means it would cost the elene god followers in large amounts. And then somehow getting the church itself to go along with it or know it has their god's blessing. Man that must have been a MESS

[hamishspence]

Technically it all took place some 400 years before Otha's invasion of Lamorkand - but since he would have been finishing up the unification of Zemoch at the time the Church Knights were founded, it makes sense that the Church and the Styrics would plan for the obvious threat before it actually hit.

Apparently a lot of the Elene prejudice toward Styrics is caused by Otha's Zemochs committing atrocities, disguised as Styrics. Otha recognises the threat posed by Elenes and Styrics uniting to fight him (Styric magicians are even better at magic than Church Knights) and seeks to ensure that as few Styric magicians will fight beside the Elenes as possible.

Fair point, though she does plenty of poaching by the end of the second series.

I think the closest thing to an explicitly "poached Elene" in the second trilogy is Stragen, who is an agnostic and so "fair game" - so, once he casts a spell that invokes her for the first time, he's counted as a follower in a fashion different from the Pandions.

I imagine that took a LOT of back room politicking between the elene god and the thousand as both had reason to agree to letting church knights get magic (if they had fallen to otha, the styrics wouldnt have lasted that much longer) but the fact that styric magic is literally praying to the god or goddess you worship means it would cost the elene god followers in large amounts. And then somehow getting the church itself to go along with it or know it has their god's blessing. Man that must have been a MESS

I'd speculate that the Archprelate of the time saw that the Zemochs would invade within a few centuries, contacted the Styrics, and eventually a deal was brokered.

It's explicitly stated that every Archprelate must approve the continuing teaching of the Secrets by Styrics, or the Styrics will stop doing it.

[Traab]

Technically it all took place some 400 years before Otha's invasion of Lamorkand - but since he would have been finishing up the unification of Zemoch at the time the Church Knights were founded, it makes sense that the Church and the Styrics would plan for the obvious threat before it actually hit.

Apparently a lot of the Elene prejudice toward Styrics is caused by Otha's Zemochs committing atrocities, disguised as Styrics. Otha recognises the threat posed by Elenes and Styrics uniting to fight him (Styric magicians are even better at magic than Church Knights) and seeks to ensure that as few Styric magicians will fight beside the Elenes as possible.



I think the closest thing to an explicitly "poached Elene" in the second trilogy is Stragen, who is an agnostic and so "fair game" - so, once he casts a spell that invokes her for the first time, he's counted as a follower in a fashion different from the Pandions.



I'd speculate that the Archprelate of the time saw that the Zemochs would invade within a few centuries, contacted the Styrics, and eventually a deal was brokered.

It's explicitly stated that every Archprelate must approve the continuing teaching of the Secrets by Styrics, or the Styrics will stop doing it.

The archprelate thing is interesting, as it might be a subtle hint that the elene god actually does directly talk to him at some time. After all, there are plenty of patriarchs who make it very clear they dont support magic in any way. It seems likely that any such archprelate who may be elected gets a visit that night explaining some things.

[Brother Oni]

It's been a long time since I've read the books, but wasn't praying to the Elene god for magic spells mentioned as a possibility (and one that he would probably grant), just that the thought never occurred to anybody to try asking Him since the tried and tested method for magic was praying to the Styric gods?

[hamishspence]

It's been a long time since I've read the books, but wasn't praying to the Elene god for magic spells mentioned as a possibility (and one that he would probably grant), just that the thought never occurred to anybody to try asking Him since the tried and tested method for magic was praying to the Styric gods?

Yup - in book 1 of the sequel trilogy, Domes of Fire, after they discover that the Atan god grants magic to the Atans, on a very limited basis (during major ceremonies):

Spoiler: Domes of Fire

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Zalasta’s face suddenly went white. ‘Impossible!’ he said again in a choked voice. ‘We’d have known. There are Atans at Sarsos. We’d have felt them using magic.’

‘But they don’t do it at Sarsos, Zalasta,’ Norkan said patiently. ‘They only use it here in Atan and only during their ceremonies.’

‘That’s absurd!’

‘I wouldn’t tell them you feel that way. They hold you Styrics in some contempt, you know. They find the notion of turning a God into a servant a bit impious. Atans have access to a God, and their God can do the same sort of things other Gods do. They choose not to involve their God in everyday matters, so they only call on Him during their religious ceremonies – weddings, funerals, Rites of Passage, and a few others. They can’t understand your willingness to insult your Gods by asking them to do things you really ought to do for yourselves.’ He looked at Emban then with a sly sort of grin. ‘It just occurred to me that your Elene God could probably do exactly the same thing. Have you ever thought of asking Him, your Grace?’

‘Heresy!’ Bevier gasped.

‘Not really, Sir Knight. That word’s used to describe somebody who strays from the teachings of his own faith. I’m not a member of the Elene faith, so my speculations can’t really be heretical, can they?’

‘He’s got you there, Bevier,’ Ulath said. ‘His logic’s unassailable.’

‘It raises some very interesting questions,’ Vanion mused. ‘It’s entirely possible that the Church blundered when she founded the Militant Orders. We may not have had to go outside our own faith for instruction in magic. If we’d asked Him the right way, our own God might have given us the help we needed.’ He coughed a bit uncomfortably. ‘I’ll trust you gentlemen not to tell Sephrenia I came up with that. If I start suggesting that she’s unnecessary, she might take it the wrong way.’

‘Lord Vanion,’ Emban said quite formally. ‘As the representative of the Church, I forbid you to continue this speculation. This is dangerous ground, and I want a ruling from Dolmant before we pursue the matter any further – and for God’s sake, don’t start experimenting.’

‘Ah – Patriarch Emban,’ Vanion reminded him rather mildly, ‘I think that you’re forgetting the fact that as the Preceptor of the Pandion Order, my rank in the Church is the same as yours. Technically speaking, you can’t forbid me to do anything.’

‘Sparhawk’s the Preceptor now.’

‘Not until he’s been confirmed by the Hierocracy, Emban. I’m not trying to demean your authority, old boy, but let’s observe the proprieties, shall we? It’s the little things that keep us civilised when we’re far from home.’

‘Aren’t Elenes fun?’ Oscagne said to Norkan.

‘I was just about to make the same observation myself.’

[Traab]

Yeah but we dont know the real background there. Maybe they did try asking, the elene god is known for being very very silent as far as deities go. It may be an issue with conflicting rules. Lets say the elene god has his own version of the ten commandments and he said something like, "Miracles are mine and mine alone to do." Boom, unless he decides to come down to earth (or whatever their world is called, i forget if it had its own name) and personally smite someone, he cant or wont allow anyone to use magic through him. Using the styric gods is a loophole of sorts. Or maybe its something else. Maybe he is a power hoarder and doesnt want to use the energy he gets from worship to do anything but make sure he is on top of the deity heap. So he basically said, "If you want magic, go ask those guys, they sell themselves off as mana batteries already im sure they wont mind doing it for you too, just dont forget who you actually worship."

[tomandtish]

He's not a knight though.

In the first trilogy, Vanion says , approximately, "he would have made a great knight, but I don't make the rules." A point is made of how the Thalesians bend the rules by having their King give noble titles to people who aren't noble by birth.


In the second trilogy however, Sparhawk says that it was at Kurik's own insistence that they didn't make him a knight - that they tried to, and he said no - and that Sparhawk plans on making sure that all Kurik's sons do get knighted.

A point is also made in the first trilogy of how having a squire is something of an archaism, and that "the rest of us can get along without one".

Yeah, there's not really a contradiction here. Vanion is (presumably) perfectly correct in saying he can't be a knight because of his birth. However, given that Sparhawk is married to the queen, there's nothing to say that in the 10 years between trilogies they offered to grant him a title and he said no.

Kurik was a different matter, he was the squire of the crown champion or whatever sparhawks official title inherited from his father and his father before him and therefore could not be knighted because knights arent squires and the crown champion has a traditional squire. He was well established to have more than earned a rank and knighthood through sheer skill and experience but was like "Lol nope, im sparhawks squire and thats that." The church knights dont HAVE squires normally so he was an archaic anomaly but a respected one.

Yeah, remember that when they talk about Khalad...

‘He can’t be a squire and a knight both, Kalten.’
‘Why not? Take you, for example. You’re a Pandion Knight, a member of the royal council, Queen’s Champion and the Prince Consort. Khalad’s got broad shoulders. He can handle both jobs.’

Eddings appears to use squire a bit differently than our history (and most fantasy for that matter) has done. The norm is that you became a squire on your way to knight in most cases (unless you had the money or the influence to skip it).

[hamishspence]

Yeah, there's not really a contradiction here. Vanion is (presumably) perfectly correct in saying he can't be a knight because of his birth. However, given that Sparhawk is married to the queen, there's nothing to say that in the 10 years between trilogies they offered to grant him a title and he said no.

After a reread of the first trilogy, it turns out it was Sparhawk who used the "I didn't make the rules" phrase. A point is also made later of how the Pandions still wanted Kurik to become a knight, but Kurik was against it.

Spoiler: The Diamond Throne

Show

Kurik spoke in a whisper. ‘I think the child’s asleep,’ he said. ‘I don’t want to wake her. You two go on ahead.’
Sparhawk nodded and led Sephrenia out of the cramped cabin.
‘I always forget how gentle he is,’ Sephrenia said softly.
Sparhawk nodded. ‘He’s the best and kindest man I know,’ he said simply. ‘If it weren’t for class distinctions, he’d have made an almost perfect knight.’
‘Is class really all that important?’
‘Not to me it isn’t, but I didn’t make the rules.’

Spoiler: The Sapphire Rose

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‘It’s good to have your mind at rest about such things. Aslade should be able to set the boys up in trades of their own then.’
‘Your boys already have a trade, Kurik.’
‘Farming? Sometimes that’s a little dubious.’
‘I wasn’t talking about farming. I’ve talked with Vanion about them. Your oldest boy’s probably going to be entering his novitiate when this business is all over.’
‘That’s ridiculous, Sparhawk.’
‘Not really. The Pandion order always needs good men, and if they’re at all like their father, your sons are some of the best. We’d have had you knighted years ago, but you wouldn’t even let me talk about it. You’re a stubborn man, Kurik.’
‘Sparhawk, you –’ Kurik broke off. ‘Somebody’s coming!’ he hissed.

Vanion's comment when the subject is brought up, slightly earlier in the same book:

Spoiler: The Sapphire Rose

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‘I can do what you ask,’ she told him, ‘but Sparhawk will have to be in the cellar. I can channel the spell through him.’
‘Better and better, actually,’ Dolmant said. ‘Vanion, see what you think of this. You and I talk with Colonel Delada, the commander of the Archprelate’s guard. We put his guardsmen in the cellar under the command of somebody reliable.’
‘Kurik?’ Sparhawk suggested.
‘The very man,’ Dolmant approved. ‘I suspect that I’d still obey automatically if Kurik barked an order at me.’ Dolmant paused. ‘Why didn’t you ever knight him, Vanion?’
‘Because of his class prejudices, Dolmant,’ Vanion laughed. ‘Kurik believes that knights are frivolous, empty-headed men. Sometimes I almost think he’s right.’

[Ionathus]

I'm always willing to round down or up a digit for fantasy worldbuilding. Every time the players in my 5e campaign ask me for a price, a population count, or a square mileage, I'm freaking out internally. Feels like you're basically left with two options:

1. Obsessively calculate everything down to just short of the minutiae, and then hope you remember the right reference volume when they ask, or
2. Improvise a "close enough" answer that doesn't lock you down too restrictively but also gets across the scope you're going for.

Numbers are a tyranny for me in fiction writing. I avoid them wherever possible.

[Sapphire Guard]

I wouldn't get too wedded to European logistics. They may have things like 'food preservation' magic and such.

Spoiler

Show

Sephrenia is Aphrael's High Priestess, not her only one.

Hamish's quote summoning powers as impressive as always.

[hamishspence]

Eddings appears to use squire a bit differently than our history (and most fantasy for that matter) has done. The norm is that you became a squire on your way to knight in most cases (unless you had the money or the influence to skip it).

Squires as "commoners who only very rarely become knights" is a bit unusual. The 5e Warhammer Bretonnia army book had this kind of squire as a light cavalry unit - a later edition of the game renamed them "Mounted Yeomen".

In the Mercedes Lackey Tales of the Five Hundred Kingdoms series, one of the novels (A Good Knight) has an mention of "professional squires" who have no interest in being "Champions" (Paladin-types) - only in being the support for Champions.


Generally though, the default for "squire" does seem to be "trainee knight".