OOTS #1248 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

It was an unlabeled cave. The Order can't be blamed for venturing in; there was absolutely no sign of sentient habitation that we saw. They were attacked on sight and attempted to flee before fighting back.

I guess they could have employed divination magic to find out if the cave was inhabited by sentient beings before venturing in, or tried to flee for longer before fighting back (although Elan seems to have become pinned by the dragon during the very first round of combat, so even that may not have been morally defensible), but aside from that, it's hard to see what else they could have done.

V might have used a different means, rendering the dragon dead but hardly a pile of dust. But that's not the story that Rich wrote.

hard reach at young adult.

Not buying it. (But thanks for going through the reasoning chain).

The ABD was engaging in hyperbole.

Spoiler: Mothers love their sons

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I am my mother's child. I will always be my mothers child. I've been on this planet for enough decades to be a grandpa, but her reaction to someone killing me and turning me into a pile of dust would likely be similar to ABD's response to her child (who is an adult/young adult) being to disposed of in that manner. My son is in his late 20's. I suspect that my wife's "she wolf" aspect would get dialed to about 11 were someone to do him like that.

It was narratively convenient to present the ABD's point of view, and I like the way Rich tried to add some depth to a two dimensional antagonist to the Order (well, to V) by have her respond as A Mother, and not just another dragon in a game.
This puts V's response, as spouse and parent, into a well framed context as V destroyed the ABD.
The extra step, familicide, was obviously a (giant) step too far but was narratively necessary for how Rich wanted to bridge book 4 into book 5. He also needed, mechanically, to keep V out of a variety of scenes since Wizards are OP, yadda yadda yadda.

[hamishspence]

This gets into questions of whether you consider a teenager to be a child that I'll avoid here. Suffice to say his mother referred to him that way.

The ABD was engaging in hyperbole.

The younger black dragon being in the Young Adult age category was established fairly early:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html

What the Young Adult age category means in-universe, is difficult to know for certain, other than that "capable of reproduction" is part of it (Draconomicon 3.5 establishes that, before the Young Adult age category, a dragon can't reproduce at all).

We also know that the younger dragon has not yet left home - they don't have a lair of their own, yet.

They're "old enough to guard the home" for a time though.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html

[KorvinStarmast]

What the Young Adult age category means in-universe, is difficult to know for certain,

Yes, hence the various arguments for I don't know how many years.

We also know that the younger dragon has not yet left home - they don't have a lair of their own, yet.

Irrelevant, except to the ABD on the emotional side, a parent who was able to "keep their baby at home" longer.

Spoiler: Yeah, I've seen this in spades

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My own wife's views and feelings on this - anguish at "her babies" leaving the nest - impact how I see this. I am far more "let them go forth and out into the world, we have prepared them to do that" and I learned that from my own parents ... I think that Rich successfully captured a powerful emotion that I've seen at play IRL

.

To put this in perspective: it's not uncommon for children to live at home into their 20's, well beyond legal adult, if they are going to university (and parents find the cost of dorms to be obscene) and university is near home. (Both of my children did that).

When we lived in Italy, our next door neighbors had their son, daughter in law (both in their late 20's) and grandson living in their house for a very practical reason: getting out on your own, and getting your own place, in Italy can be really expensive.

[hamishspence]

The relevant age categories run "Juvenile, Young Adult, Adult, Mature Adult".

So "Young Adult is between Adult and Juvenile" allows for an interpretation of them as "more like a 13 year old than an 18 year old".

[Quizatzhaderac]

Going going Rich's comments in the forums, I'm going to assume that anybody he puts in combat that isn't trying to run away is a real adult.

There are any number of "Sovereign Citizen fails" videos on YouTube, showing what happens when someone insists that definitions from Black's Law Dictionary overrule the statutes in their jurisdiction. "I'm not driving, I'm travelling, and I have a constitutional right to do that! It's only driving if I'm doing it for commercial purposes!" "This isn't a motor vehicle, it's personal property!" These generally don't end well.

They also tend to use fantastically old editions of the legal dictionaries, under the belief that the law doesn't change. I guess also under the assumption that words don't change, se biþ na hu Angelcynn deþ!

[Psyren]

But behind that wall might be another maze of long tunnels, Serini can just go back while they think they are following her.

Judging by the color/pattern on the floor, what's underneath is her sanctum, which appears to be a large box (Lien called it a "warehouse.")

Even if you're right though and she's able to elude them, getting into her quarters will probably yield useful insights of its own. You can tell a lot about someone by getting access to their bedroom, and not-coincidentally it's also a great place to ambush them. Even more importantly, they're highly likely to locate Lien and O-Chul if left alone to explore it.

(There's also the non-zero chance that she's still writing down critical plot info.)

[hamishspence]

Going going Rich's comments in the forums, I'm going to assume that anybody he puts in combat that isn't trying to run away is a real adult.

"Real adult" in the D&D sense, may differ a little from "Real adult" in the modern social sense.

The Giant put Julia and Hinjo in combat situations that didn't only involve running away, when both were 15 or so, after all. According to the PHB, 15 is "adulthood"- but, socially speaking, there's still an element of "being still a child".

In Races of the Dragon, 6, for a kobold, is the equivalent of 15 for a human. Since they also get the 12 dragon age categories, it's also "the start of the Young Adult age category".


So, "Teenage Black Dragon" is at least the equivalent of a 15 year old human then.

[Hurkyl]

Going going Rich's comments in the forums, I'm going to assume that anybody he puts in combat that isn't trying to run away is a real adult.

There are no True Scotsmen in the OotS.

"Real adult" in the D&D sense, may differ a little from "Real adult" in the modern social sense.
...
So, "Teenage Black Dragon" is at least the equivalent of a 15 year old human then.

Equivalent in what sense?

I don't think it's fruitful to argue semantics like this. The reason people are talking about things like "real adults" or "children" or whatever here, is because they mean to imply something, but I don't think it's really an effective way to communicate here, since there are so many different ways to adapt the words to the topic of discussion. It especially confuses things since they are actually technical terms in this context whose technical meaning is mostly unrelated to what people are discussing.

It would be better to just say what is meant.

I also sort of think there's a high risk of disguising non sequiturs: argue that the analogy is apt in one sense, and thus it must be apt in a completely different sense.

[danielxcutter]

You know, characters that are parents(and whether or not said characters are good at it) have been showing up a lot for the past three books or so. Eugene, the ABD, Vaarsuvius, Ian, Tarquin, Malack, Sigdi, Serini… get what I mean? Heck, even Laurin mentioned a daughter in passing.

[Bacon Elemental]

Parenthood is probbably the most common institution in all of history, yet in D&D is usually relegated solely to the realms of "pc backstory sob-fodder"

[Metastachydium]

Malack

Malack, the loving father who gave birth to his own little brother!

[Silent Wrangler]

So, talking is a free action. What kind of action is making a dramatic pause? Swift, move, standard or maybe even full-round for extra drama?

[danielxcutter]

Parenthood is probbably the most common institution in all of history, yet in D&D is usually relegated solely to the realms of "pc backstory sob-fodder"

This is actually part of the reason why I try to avoid doing family angst for my characters, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is literally why Rich is making the families of the “PCs” relevant.

Malack, the loving father who gave birth to his own little brother!

Eh, even ignoring the vampirism aspect I always saw that more as the spawn being closer to adoptive children.

So, talking is a free action. What kind of action is making a dramatic pause? Swift, move, standard or maybe even full-round for extra drama?

I mean, time doesn’t actually stop during someone’s turn unless they use a spell for that. If it’s less than 6 seconds it’s probably a free action as well.

[Vikenlugaid]

Precisely the problem with killing a not-adult being even if it is atracking you is that it is not mature enough to know the real consecuences of its acts.
Kids do lots of stupid things, that doesn't make them evil.

V killing the young dragon was wrong, maybe not straight evil, but wrong.

[danielxcutter]

I’d say it’s mostly about how - in cold blood, while unable to fight. Granted, the Suggestion would have worn off soon, but V essentially used and discarded him like a used potion bottle. That’s pretty cold.

[Metastachydium]

Eh, even ignoring the vampirism aspect I always saw that more as the spawn being closer to adoptive children.

That's not quite the case for Durkon/Greg.

I’d say it’s mostly about how - in cold blood

Well, V was a lizard at the time.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, even ignoring the vampirism aspect I always saw that more as the spawn being closer to adoptive children.

While Malack considered his first three spawns as his children, his little monologue here states he saw Durkon* as a younger brother.

Edit: Or at the minimum, that he hoped the realtionship would develop that way.

[danielxcutter]

I meant the first three.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Real adult" in the D&D sense, may differ a little from "Real adult" in the modern social sense.

The Giant put Julia and Hinjo in combat situations that didn't only involve running away, when both were 15 or so, after all. According to the PHB, 15 is "adulthood"- but, socially speaking, there's still an element of "being still a child".

Depends on the cultural and social framework. Won't comment further.

In Races of the Dragon, 6, for a kobold, is the equivalent of 15 for a human. Since they also get the 12 dragon age categories, it's also "the start of the Young Adult age category".

So, "Teenage Black Dragon" is at least the equivalent of a 15 year old human then.

Thanks for the 3.5 detail.

Eh, even ignoring the vampirism aspect I always saw that more as the spawn being closer to adoptive children.

Likewise, and the children Nale killed I have as head canon were also vampire spawn.

[Peelee]

There are no True Scotsmen in the OotS.

Excuse me, I do believe dwarves are a standard race.

[Metastachydium]

the children Nale killed I have as head canon were also vampire spawn.

That's not headcanon, though, just plain old canon canon. Nale didn't so much as live when Malack was already a vampire for quite some time.

[Fyraltari]

Excuse me, I do believe dwarves are a standard race.

Not enough kilts, bagpipes, sheep, haggis, claymores, warpaint and slaying of the English(-equivalent) to count. Sorry.

[danielxcutter]

That's not headcanon, though, just plain old canon canon. Nale didn't so much as live when Malack was already a vampire for quite some time.

I'm not sure if they were actual vampire spawn, or full fledged vampires that were sired by Mallach though.

Not enough kilts, bagpipes, sheep, haggis, claymores, warpaint and slaying of the English(-equivalent) to count. Sorry.

...Who would be the British equivalents in this setting? Gnomes?

[Duncun]

So, talking is a free action. What kind of action is making a dramatic pause? Swift, move, standard or maybe even full-round for extra drama?

Talking being a free action means you can do other things while talking. It doesn't mean it doesn't take time. So, if all you are doing is talking, then it is still taking up a round, or more, depending on how verbose you are. See https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html

[Metastachydium]

I'm not sure if they were actual vampire spawn, or full fledged vampires that were sired by Mallach though.

Fair.

...Who would be the British equivalents in this setting? Gnomes?

I wholeheartedly agree. Dwarves should kill more gnomes!

[Duncun]

...Who would be the British equivalents in this setting? Gnomes?

Probably trees.

[Schroeswald]

I would say the elves are much more British than gnomes.

[Metastachydium]

I would say the elves are much more British than gnomes.

Nah, elves are snotty Frenchfolk.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Malack, the loving father who gave birth to his own little brother!

Among all the other problems with that is that Malak was a reptile, not a mammal.

Not enough kilts, bagpipes, sheep, haggis, claymores, warpaint and slaying of the English(-equivalent) to count. Sorry.

Well, there are kilts at least: panel 4.

...Who would be the British equivalents in this setting? Gnomes?

I imagine the flumphs as having upper class British accents.

[danielxcutter]

I imagine the frumps as having upper class British accents.

I know, right? A snooty gnome with a monocle and top hat with a posh accent in the OotS artstyle comes to mind with no effort at all.