OOTS #1248 - The Discussion Thread

[elecampane]

Too bad it's a scroll of passwall, not a scroll of passfloor.

Well, the word "wall" has a meaning "a barrier, an impediment to a free movement".
Also, the spell "wall of stone" can specifically create even bridges:
"Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp"
(yeah, I know you made a joke, I just wanted to get real for a second)

I just hope the party doesn't stay split.

Hm, we have a stoned Durkon (no cure for him currently, unless Sunny's ray was just temporary or can be lifted), an unconscious Roy and a very eloquent Elan. If Durkon can't be rescued right now, I am seeing Elan persuading Sunny that he and Roy are the good guys, and they go and find Serini right in time as she has overwhelmed V, Haley and Belkar.

Apart from Minrah people already mentioned above, Elan also has a Song of Freedom ability, and Durkon even already was freed from petrification with that ability before

[Psyren]

Dear Pantheon! Have I been reading this strip for 18 years???

3.5 came out in 2001/2002, a little while before the first strip dropped and the OotS converted.

I just hope the party doesn't stay split.

Hm, we have a stoned Durkon (no cure for him currently, unless Sunny's ray was just temporary or can be lifted), an unconscious Roy and a very eloquent Elan. If Durkon can't be rescued right now, I am seeing Elan persuading Sunny that he and Roy are the good guys, and they go and find Serini right in time as she has overwhelmed V, Haley and Belkar.

It's permanent / instantaneous, but Elan can break it.

[Yxylu]

3.5 came out in 2001/2002, a little while before the first strip dropped and the OotS converted.

Specifically, comic number 2 came out on October 4th, 2003. It’s been a little over 18 years.

[PattThe]

I love me some end-game passwall!!

[Emanick]

3.5 came out in 2001/2002, a little while before the first strip dropped and the OotS converted.

June/July 2003, actually.

[Carl]

If that stone on the other side leads to Serini's secret hideout...

...why do I have this terrible sense of impending dread that this encounter is only going to end with Serini having all of her memories wiped out?

It's only supposed to wipe memories of their time in the north, (and replace them with fake ones), not completely wipe all knowledge and memory from them.

[Riftwolf]

It's only supposed to wipe memories of their time in the north, (and replace them with fake ones), not completely wipe all knowledge and memory from them.

But she has made a cauldron of it, so who knows what improper dosage could do to her.

Also, is there anything more old school DM {scrubbed}move than Killer Floor?

[Fyraltari]

But she has made a cauldron of it, so who knows what improper dosage could do to her.

Also, is there anything more old school DM {scrub the post, scrub the quote}move than Killer Floor?

Killer Ceiling?

[Peelee]

But she has made a cauldron of it, so who knows what improper dosage could do to her.

Probably nothing.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, is there anything more old school DM {scrubbed}move than Killer Floor?

The list of such moves is long and distinguished.

[Shining Wrath]

The most old school DM killer move is probably a pit trap where the top closes, something heavy slides onto the lid, and then the pit fills with water. I'm pretty sure Gygax used that one.

[Peelee]

The most old school DM killer move is probably a pit trap where the top closes, something heavy slides onto the lid, and then the pit fills with water. I'm pretty sure Gygax used that one.

No spikes on the ceiling?

[Metastachydium]

The most old school DM killer move is probably a pit trap where the top closes, something heavy slides onto the lid, and then the pit fills with water. I'm pretty sure Gygax used that one.

Ah, the old days when the fun stuff (the pit filling with acid and acidborn sharks) wasn't available yet!

[danielxcutter]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of.

[Schroeswald]

No spikes on the ceiling?

I think it needs spikes on the floor too

[danielxcutter]

Spikes on the ceiling, spikes on the floor, spikes on the walls, spikes inside your armor, pack, and the slice of pie your mom sent you, I think?

[Metastachydium]

Spikes on the ceiling, spikes on the floor, spikes on the walls, spikes inside your armor, pack, and the slice of pie your mom sent you, I think?

Yes, and that's before you come to realise that ♪all in all you're just a-nother spike in the wall!♫

[Psyren]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of.

It fell especially out of favor when rolling up new characters became a more involved process, and you weren't just throwing characters whose stats meant they had no business adventuring into a meat grinder.

[BriarHobbit]

I dunno, I can't help but question the logic of having a monster there at all. The lurker above slowed them down, yeah, but unless that trapper managed to kill all three of them all it would manage to do would be to mildly inconvenience one of them before they noticed the different stone anyway.

In classic D&D, trappers were deadly if you didn't spot them. They'd catch some unsuspecting party members and smother them with dazzling speed. Even if the party sees it and kills it, its mass hides the secret door. If Belkar had not spotted the creature, it might have got them all. This creature is much larger than the lurker above that we saw. I enjoyed this comic quite a bit.

[Hurkyl]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of.

It's skill/puzzle based challenge. For the rogue-likes, at least. The puzzle is to learn how to best manage the hostility of the environment so that you still get resources as necessary to proceed while minimizing the risk of catastrophe, and how to get the most use out of what resources you do come across. And then there is joy in the execution, seeing your overall strategy work successfully, seeing specific tactics work out, and being able to read situations and the environment and adapt to new things as you come across them.

It's a game that expects you to 'git gud' made for people who enjoy 'gitting gud'. If that's not your cup of tea -- or even if it is but you were going into the game expecting a completely different sort of experience -- then I can see why one would not find it appealing.

Of course, not all such games are well-written, and due to the increased penalty for failure, it's a far more painful experience when the game has problems on the unfair side (and I mean an actually unfair way, not in the "whoops I wasn't managing that risk" way). E.g. on the opposite side if this, RPG combat is usually pretty bad these days... but it's easier to overlook that issue because it's so gosh-darned easy that it doesn't get in the way if you're enjoying the plotline and visuals. Until it does at which point people complain about how awful the game is.

[danielxcutter]

I got burned on a rogue-like. Asked the creator on their Discord server and they said flat-out that it's not meant to be beaten by newcomers. I basically dropped it after that.

[Vikenlugaid]

Most important, who said V wasn't effective in this persecution? O:)

[Werbaer]

If Belkar had not spotted the creature, it might have got them all.

If Belkar had not attacked it, it would have done nothing. Just like Mimi didn't attack. His job is to conceal something, not to fight the party.

[Duncun]

In classic D&D, trappers were deadly if you didn't spot them. They'd catch some unsuspecting party members and smother them with dazzling speed. Even if the party sees it and kills it, its mass hides the secret door. If Belkar had not spotted the creature, it might have got them all. This creature is much larger than the lurker above that we saw. I enjoyed this comic quite a bit.

Actually, Belkar did not spot the creature. He made the assumption that there would be a floor based creature and stabbed the floor to test his assumption and just happened to be right.

[Yanisa]

Spikes on the ceiling, spikes on the floor, spikes on the walls, spikes inside your armor, pack, and the slice of pie your mom sent you, I think?

Reminds me off:

"Couldn't there have been lava on top of the spikes, with fire-sharks swimming in it? Couldn't there be more spikes coming from the sides, ready to close in and squash me while stabbing at the same time? How 'bout some laser cannons and upside-down volcanoes?"

[bunsen_h]

And good work by both Belkar and V. Also, the stone inhibiting teleportation is an essential part of the dungeon; otherwise a Xykon could just pop into each tunnel and pop back out.

Teleport requires that you know your destination. Even Greater Teleport requires that you have at least a "reliable" description of the destination.

No, paladins Lein and O-Chul. Soon died.

[*snort*]

More credit to Belkar - not killing the floor monster.

I noticed that too.

I wonder if Passwall will work on the dimensional stone? It's not teleportation after all.

I think that the idea is that Serini ran to a location that had non-dimensional stone between areas, so she could teleport through that specific barrier. Passwall should allow the good guys to get through that same barrier. (EDIT: That is, she just went down a level.)

Do we know for sure if she's using a Teleport wand, vs. Dimension Door or some other effect? V uses the word "teleport" but also says that the spell has "middling range". Teleport has a range of 100 miles per caster level, while DimDoor gives 400 ft. + 40 ft./level.

With all these disguised wall/ceiling/floor monsters, I can’t help but recall the concept of the perfectly ordinary-looking room where literally everything in it is a well-disguised monster waiting to kill you.

Ah, the Castle!

Ah, the old days when the fun stuff (the pit filling with acid and acidborn sharks) wasn't available yet!

Mutant, acid-resistant flying piranhas!

[Frozenstep]

I got burned on a rogue-like. Asked the creator on their Discord server and they said flat-out that it's not meant to be beaten by newcomers. I basically dropped it after that.

Curious, how do you feel about difficult game bosses were killing them on your first try is incredibly rare?

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally I’ve never seen the appeal of rogue-likes and old-school dungeon crawlers like that where paranoia was a prereq and you got screwed over by the most arbitrary and unfair things the dungeon designer could think of.

We had a lot of fun with them for a lot of years. The environment was a hazard, the world was dangerous, and death lurked around every corner. Only the brave, the bold, and the foolish were adventurers. Glorious fun indeed. We used our wits and imagination to try and bypass hazards. (And 11 foot poles ...)

Yes, and that's before you come to realise that ♪all in all you're just a-nother spike in the wall!♫

That too.

It's skill/puzzle based challenge. For the rogue-likes, at least. The puzzle is to learn how to best manage the hostility of the environment so that you still get resources as necessary to proceed while minimizing the risk of catastrophe, and how to get the most use out of what resources you do come across. And then there is joy in the execution, seeing your overall strategy work successfully, seeing specific tactics work out, and being able to read situations and the environment and adapt to new things as you come across them.

yes, and the brainstorming by a group of focused, immersed players was part of the fun. "What if we pour some oil on the floor and see which way is down hill?" ...

It's a game that expects you to 'git gud' made for people who enjoy 'gitting gud'. If that's not your cup of tea -- or even if it is but you were going into the game expecting a completely different sort of experience -- then I can see why one would not find it appealing.

Player skill is a thing in most games. Heck, GiTP optimization discussions are all about player skill, or at least player skill at 'building' ...

Of course, not all such games are well-written

Understatement of the week.

I got burned on a rogue-like. Asked the creator on their Discord server and they said flat-out that it's not meant to be beaten by newcomers. I basically dropped it after that.

First time I ran into the Butcher in Diablo, on level 2, he killed my warrior. It took me some trial and error to find ways to beat him. That's a part of the fun of rogue-likes.

Actually, Belkar did not spot the creature. He made the assumption that there would be a floor based creature and stabbed the floor to test his assumption and just happened to be right.

Hooray for the scientific method!

[Psyren]

I think that the idea is that Serini ran to a location that had non-dimensional stone between areas, so she could teleport through that specific barrier. Passwall should allow the good guys to get through that same barrier. (EDIT: That is, she just went down a level.)

I'm aware of that I was musing whether that stone stops the spell more generally, not for the specific use case of chasing down Serini. Passwall works by physically altering the material rather than any kind of planar or phasic attempt to bypass it.

Do we know for sure if she's using a Teleport wand, vs. Dimension Door or some other effect? V uses the word "teleport" but also says that the spell has "middling range". Teleport has a range of 100 miles per caster level, while DimDoor gives 400 ft. + 40 ft./level.

It's definitely Dimension Door, Teleport is too high to be put on a wand. (It could also potentially put her off target by a factor of miles, whereas dimension door is much more precise.)

[Wintermoot]

I'm aware of that I was musing whether that stone stops the spell more generally, not for the specific use case of chasing down Serini. Passwall works by physically altering the material rather than any kind of planar or phasic attempt to bypass it.

Passwall certainly works on multidimensional stone. it's just that no self respecting sorcerer like Xykon would possibly waste a precious spell known slot on such a suboptimal spell.

I assume V's came from a random grab-bag booster pack.