OOTS #1248 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

Clearly OotS is not a game, as you say. It's a story about a group of adventurers loosely (increasingly loosely) associated with 3.5 D&D characters and opposed by 3.5 D&D monsters.

However, in the context of a video game (not a TTRPG) OotS is more rogue-like. If they collectively die, the entire world ends, and someday a new group of adventurers will try to truly seal away the Snarl.

But that's not what defines a roguelike. The randomly generated levels and elements do.

(In some modern roguelikes, the game world doesn't reset after a death, either, but has elements that can be unlocked or upgraded permanently.)

[SlashDash]

Interesting that V decided to have Passwall from a scroll when before they memorized it (#857)
Though I suppose it's possible they didn't have time to write a scroll of it up until now

[Fishman]

With all these disguised wall/ceiling/floor monsters, I can’t help but recall the concept of the perfectly ordinary-looking room where literally everything in it is a well-disguised monster waiting to kill you.

Also, the room itself is a monster that has already eaten you.

[danielxcutter]

But that's not what defines a roguelike. The randomly generated levels and elements do.

(In some modern roguelikes, the game world doesn't reset after a death, either, but has elements that can be unlocked or upgraded permanently.)

I think those are called roguelites.

[Metastachydium]

Interesting that V decided to have Passwall from a scroll when before they memorized it (#857)
Though I suppose it's possible they didn't have time to write a scroll of it up until now

I know V seems to prepare lots of counterintuitively chosen spells (I mean, Bigsby's Cat Retrieving Hand?), but I can't see why they should keep preparing them.

[Fishman]

I know V seems to prepare lots of counterintuitively chosen spells (I mean, Bigsby's Cat Retrieving Hand?), but I can't see why they should keep preparing them.

Probably because he keeps needing it for some bizarre reason. Since he keeps needing it, using it on a scroll would cost him tons of XP, so he keeps preparing it, because despite its counterintuitiveness and rather niche usage, apparently he says it keeps coming up.

[Metastachydium]

Probably because he keeps needing it for some bizarre reason.

Heh. Fair. (Although we've only ever seen them use it once.)

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think V was expecting combat that day, so they prepared a bunch of utility spells.

[Metastachydium]

I don’t think V was expecting combat that day, so they prepared a bunch of utility spells.

Disagreed. The Order was pretty sure that if they don't find the Linears at the Gate already, they won't be too far away.

[Doug Lampert]

Disagreed. The Order was pretty sure that if they don't find the Linears at the Gate already, they won't be too far away.

But they weren't planning to go to the gate that day, just to get some information from Tarquin.

And, in any case, the actual Bigby's Hand line of spells are combat spells. We don't actually know what spell V is casting for Cat Retrieving hand, that's just what he calls it when using it to retrieve a cat.

[Metastachydium]

But they weren't planning to go to the gate that day, just to get some information from Tarquin.

And, in any case, the actual Bigby's Hand line of spells are combat spells. We don't actually know what spell V is casting for Cat Retrieving hand, that's just what he calls it when using it to retrieve a cat.

I'm talking about Passwall, though.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm talking about Passwall, though.

Oh, well, carry on then. My mistake.

Having Passwall on a scroll for a combat day is fine. That's what you do with utility spells you may not need, put them on a scroll just in case.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, well, carry on then. My mistake.

Having Passwall on a scroll for a combat day is fine. That's what you do with utility spells you may not need, put them on a scroll just in case.

Could you use Passwall to drop an ennemy in the room below? Because that sounds rather useful in combat.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Could you use Passwall to drop an ennemy in the room below? Because that sounds rather useful in combat.

Especially if its into one of those rooms will with spikes covered in acid where also the air is tiny razor blades.

[RatElemental]

Could you use Passwall to drop an ennemy in the room below? Because that sounds rather useful in combat.

It's a touch range spell, so you'd have to be in melee range to make it work. Also it only goes 5 feet +5 more per 3 levels you have above 9th, so the most you can get below epic is 20 feet. It won't be enough to hurt anyone with fall damage, let alone kill them, but you could trap a single melee combatant small enough to fit into an 8 foot opening out of range and pelt them with spells which might have some niche usage in combat. Outside of a cramped dungeon, you'd probably be better off just flying out of range of all of the melee only combatants though, and inside of one using passwall to bypass, well, walls is likely to be much more useful than banishing one single enemy to the next floor.

Probably because he keeps needing it for some bizarre reason. Since he keeps needing it, using it on a scroll would cost him tons of XP, so he keeps preparing it, because despite its counterintuitiveness and rather niche usage, apparently he says it keeps coming up.

Scribing a scroll of passwall would cost 562 gold and 5 silver, 45 exp, and take two days. For a level 17+ wizard those are negligible costs.

[Fyraltari]

It's a touch range spell, so you'd have to be in melee range to make it work.

So, you'd fall too? That's too bad. It'd be some desperate move then.

Also it only goes 5 feet +5 more per 3 levels you have above 9th, so the most you can get below epic is 20 feet. It won't be enough to hurt anyone with fall damage, let alone kill them,

That depends on what's below you, though. Doing it on The Mechane or on a balcony would get more results.

[Psyren]

Oh, well, carry on then. My mistake.

Having Passwall on a scroll for a combat day is fine. That's what you do with utility spells you may not need, put them on a scroll just in case.

This is especially true for spells that don/t really depend on caster level to be effective. Even at minimum CL, Passwall lasts a whopping 9 hours and makes a 10ft. deep hole, which will get your party around most doors built into stone.

Also, the material component is one of the "jokey" ones

So, you'd fall too? That's too bad. It'd be some desperate move then.

That depends on what other buffs you might have running when the floor goes away

[Ezekiel]

Drop them through the floor with passwall, dismiss the spell. Let them find their own way back

[hungrycrow]

Drop them through the floor with passwall, dismiss the spell. Let them find their own way back

It takes a standard action to dismiss it, so the opponents probably have a round to get through.

[bunsen_h]

That depends on what's below you, though. Doing it on The Mechane or on a balcony would get more results.

"FOUL!"

"He's fallen out of the airship!"

[Crusher]

"FOUL!"

"He's fallen out of the airship!"

Wow. That strip is 17 years old. Gah.

I absolutely LOVED FTL, and Into the Breach, and I'd add Haque, Cogmind, Heat Signature, Tangledeep, Streets of Rogue, Dungeons of Dredmore, Crypt of the Necrodancer and a few others to the list as well. For a slightly different take on it, UnReal World, Project Zomboid and Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead are good too.

But people are probably talking more about the likes of NetHack, Angbad and Rogue, or games that draw heavily on them.

Yeah, I spent a stunning amount of time playing Angband and Rogue variants. They were fun, but definitely not everyone's cup of tea and crushingly unforgiving. I have a screenshot of a character I was playing in... Hengband, I want to say (edit - I went and looked it up, it was Entroband), where I was going after the Chemist, a special, extra boss after the Serpent of Chaos. My character is almost totally out of healing potions, has like 8% health and is literally surrounded by powerful monsters. I titled it "I SURRENDER!" and then I suicided the character the next turn because there was no chance of survival or beating the Chemist and it'd have taken another game of playing to build the resources back up. Yet I remember it fondly.

Into the Breach, Slay the Spire and FTL were fantastic games (and FTL being so freaking hard only adds to its charm. I've only even gotten to the final sector a few times), and I also really enjoyed Hades. The production values and voice acting on that were way better than I expected. I've heard that Necrodancer is fun but I've never tried it.

[TheNecrocomicon]

So, you'd fall too? That's too bad. It'd be some desperate move then.

You don't necessarily have to. You melee-spell-attack the enemy and open the Passwall aperture underneath and behind the foe, then let gravity do its thing while your character remains standing on the rim. Or otherwise give the target the "this is Sparta" treatment to tip them over the edge.

That depends on what's below you, though. Doing it on The Mechane or on a balcony would get more results.

Doing it on the Mechane would also leave a hole in the hull and/or deck which would last until the spell was dismissed. But in terms of general falling distance and consequent damage, yes.

[RatElemental]

Wow. That strip is 17 years old. Gah.



Yeah, I spent a stunning amount of time playing Angband and Rogue variants. They were fun, but definitely not everyone's cup of tea and crushingly unforgiving. I have a screenshot of a character I was playing in... Hengband, I want to say (edit - I went and looked it up, it was Entroband), where I was going after the Chemist, a special, extra boss after the Serpent of Chaos. My character is almost totally out of healing potions, has like 8% health and is literally surrounded by powerful monsters. I titled it "I SURRENDER!" and then I suicided the character the next turn because there was no chance of survival or beating the Chemist and it'd have taken another game of playing to build the resources back up. Yet I remember it fondly.

Into the Breach, Slay the Spire and FTL were fantastic games (and FTL being so freaking hard only adds to its charm. I've only even gotten to the final sector a few times), and I also really enjoyed Hades. The production values and voice acting on that were way better than I expected. I've heard that Necrodancer is fun but I've never tried it.

I have a similar memory of FTL, actually. I got to the flagship with only a hacking system, teleporter, fire bomb and a pike beam (the weakest one) and still managed to squeak a win out with clever use of those tools. Having a zoltan shield bypass helped, though.

Crypt of the Necrodancer is definitely on the light side though, unless you do all zone runs (or try to play as Aria, Bolt, Coda or Tempo). Fantastic fun either way and I highly recommend, however. The sound track alone is worth price of admission.

I've dabbled in NetHack and Slash'EM as well, think the farthest I ever got in either was a gnome archaeologist past the mall in the latter.

[Thermophille]

I played Nethack when I was maybe 15. I played on the difficulty where whenever you die, you can choose to be restored to full health.

Even despite that, I still failed maybe two dozen runs. Running out of resources, getting surrounded by enemies I can't hurt, or getting stuck by equipping a two-handed cursed weapon with no way out. The farthest run I ever got, I fought a vampire that drained levels until I went from 18 to 1. Haven't played since.

Props to anyone who can reach the end even with cheats, let alone when you can actually die. Anyone who does challenge runs or doesn't use the wiki would have to be insane.

[Riftwolf]

Drop them through the floor with passwall, dismiss the spell. Let them find their own way back

Didn't Captain Jack Harkness do that?

[danielxcutter]

I’m surprised there aren’t magic traps that can do similar things already. Not custom magic traps, I mean in official material. Or at least something from the magazines.

[Vikenlugaid]

Now I am thinking if that wall is the only wall between the dungeon and the place where the paladins are...

[Robots]

Death Road to Canada is probably one of my favorite rougelike games, but I agree Crypt of the NecroDancer is great too.

Oh yeah, I should probably say something about the update too. Great update. I'm glad that Passwall scroll V mentioned offhandedly is coming into play.

[Fishman]

Heh. Fair. (Although we've only ever seen them use it once.)

Yes, but he told us explicitly it keeps coming up, regardless of whether we see it on screen, which explains his motivation for preparing it.

Scribing a scroll of passwall would cost 562 gold and 5 silver, 45 exp, and take two days. For a level 17+ wizard those are negligible costs.

Yes, but I was talking about Cat-Retrieving Hand, which he has prepared rather than scrolled because he says the usage keeps coming up. So if he keeps needing it, that's why he actually prepares this spell rather than using it as a scroll, whereas Passwall is a bit more of a niche usage case.

[danielxcutter]

Didn’t V use it twice? Once for Mr. Scruffy and once for Little Whiskers?