OOTS #1248 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

They planned for that exit. Sunny most likely has their own way out. Even if it's just making another hole in the wall (preferably higher up).

Maybe that's it, and Sunny will have escaped. He did seem to think that he had to continue to guard the hole though.

There is also the factor that anyone who could actually hurt Sunny all came chasing after Serini.

First, as Fyraltari said, one option for Belkar's group is to now return to the ambush room, in which case Serini would be well outmatched.

Second, I don't think we can assume Durkon and Roy and still incapacitated - and with those two up, the beholder would be outmatched even without Belkar's group.

Their track record actually suggest exactly that, they never killed any "child monster" they have met.

Maybe that can be a test, and when they don't kill Sunny she will trust them at least a little.

Anyway I doubt her plan now is to just flee of them, I think she is leading them to a new trap, I mean, she knows she is being followed by a wizard, a rogue and a ranger, she should know that they were going to find that secret wall and be capable of crossing it.

What child monster have they captured and then released? (assuming child monster is a fair classification of the beholder).


I doubt she is using the beholder's life as a test. She seems attached to it.

She may have another trap, although some seem to think she has now retreated to her chamber. But that wont help ppotect against Roy and Durkon (assuming Elan frees them).

[InvisibleBison]

Second, I don't think we can assume Durkon and Roy and still incapacitated - and with those two up, Serini would be outmatched even without Belkar's group.

I don't think this is correct. Both Durkon and Roy rely entirely on magic ranged attacks. If Sunny just floats out of reach and opens their central eye, there's nothing Roy or Durkon could do to hurt them.

[mjasghar]

This gets into questions of whether you consider a teenager to be a child that I'll avoid here. Suffice to say his mother referred to him that way.

Parents will refer to their offspring as their child regardless of actual age category.

[Liquor Box]

I don't think this is correct. Both Durkon and Roy rely entirely on magic ranged attacks. If Sunny just floats out of reach and opens their central eye, there's nothing Roy or Durkon could do to hurt them.

Well that was all true in the first ambush too, and they had the additional advantage of being able to hit back through Serini's poison crossbow. Yes the Order overcame that. Now the beholder is already badly wounded.

I guess it comes down to is that the beholder could probably escape if it needed too - either by mking ahold and fleeing, or by trying to hold the order off in the way you described. But if the beholder tries to stop the group from following Serini through the hole it is probably toast. After all it is already quite badly wounded.

Parents will refer to their offspring as their child regardless of actual age category.

We don't know that the beholder isn't a teenager. Indeed, although it has a childish demeanor, I don't actually think it is sub-adult. It seems to have all the powers of a normal beholder, and immature monsters usually have less power.

[Peelee]

Well that was all true in the first ambush too, and they had the additional advantage of being able to hit back through Serini's poison crossbow. Yes the Order overcame that.

In a manner not likely to work twice. And it's not like Sunny couldn't petrify more. Or use any of the other beams more.

None of that is going to happen because of dramatic reasons, but even barring all that, I would not say Sunny is in grave danger. They are a very powerful being, and underestimating that power is not likely to lead to good outcomes.

[Liquor Box]

In a manner not likely to work twice. And it's not like Sunny couldn't petrify more. Or use any of the other beams more.

None of that is going to happen because of dramatic reasons, but even barring all that, I would not say Sunny is in grave danger. They are a very powerful being, and underestimating that power is not likely to lead to good outcomes.

It may not work the same way twice, but there are different ways that Sunny might make suboptimal choice - as I already pointed out one possibility is that it think it needs to stop the rest of the Order from following Serini.

I think that a beholder cannot use its other eye powers at the same time as it's anti magic ray. So if it turns off the anti-magic ray, Roy could throw his sword, or Durkon could cast whatever. If that does happen, all the eye rays are subject to saves (and I think someone worked out that the probability of saving is over 50%). On the other hand, Sunny is already badly wounded.

You are right that a beholder is powerful, but it would still usually be outmatched by a party of the Order's level. I agree that a fight could possibly go Sunny's way, but the odds are against it. As I pointed out, the Order got the better of Sunny and Serini combined, despite having some really bad save rolls. It's not like Sunny's death would be a certainty, but at the very least it is in grave danger.

[Hurkyl]

I think that a beholder cannot use its other eye powers at the same time as it's anti magic ray.

I thought the reverse; that they don't interfere with each other at all, aside from what an anti-magic field does to magical effects. Or is that what you meant?

I assume the central eye works like antimagic field? Am I reading that correctly in that, for example, the sleep ray can still be successfully cast on someone in the antimagic field, and that it just won't do anything until the target leaves the field (or the field is turned off)?

I don't think this is correct. Both Durkon and Roy rely entirely on magic ranged attacks. If Sunny just floats out of reach and opens their central eye, there's nothing Roy or Durkon could do to hurt them.

I don't think there's nothing they can do -- it's just that the effects won't be as useful as they normally would be. They're still thrown weapons, after all. Heck, they might even get the full magic bonuses on a successful hit since Sunny himself is not in the anti-magic field. I assume Roy would be substantially more effective than Durkon, though.

[Liquor Box]

I thought the reverse; that they don't interfere with each other at all, aside from what an anti-magic field does to magical effects. Or is that what you meant?

I assume the central eye works like antimagic field? Am I reading that correctly in that, for example, the sleep ray can still be successfully cast on someone in the antimagic field, and that it just won't do anything until the target leaves the field (or the field is turned off)?

I don;t really know the answer to this. I can see that Sunny didn't use any of its other eye rays at the same time as its anti-magic field in the recent skirmish (Serini was shooting her crossbow at the same time). But someone else probably knows the rules better than me.

[Peelee]

It may not work the same way twice, but there are different ways that Sunny might make suboptimal choice - as I already pointed out one possibility is that it think it needs to stop the rest of the Order from following Serini.

I think that a beholder cannot use its other eye powers at the same time as it's anti magic ray. So if it turns off the anti-magic ray, Roy could throw his sword, or Durkon could cast whatever. If that does happen, all the eye rays are subject to saves (and I think someone worked out that the probability of saving is over 50%). On the other hand, Sunny is already badly wounded.

You are right that a beholder is powerful, but it would still usually be outmatched by a party of the Order's level. I agree that a fight could possibly go Sunny's way, but the odds are against it. As I pointed out, the Order got the better of Sunny and Serini combined, despite having some really bad save rolls. It's not like Sunny's death would be a certainty, but at the very least it is in grave danger.

I also don't see why they would be insistent on fighting Sunny in the antimgaic field when an exit is readily apparent.

Round 2 is unlikely to happen, Sunny is almost certainly in zero danger.

[Liquor Box]

I also don't see why they would be insistent on fighting Sunny in the antimgaic field when an exit is readily apparent.

Round 2 is unlikely to happen, Sunny is almost certainly in zero danger.

Well, the obvious answer is that they would want to do so if Sunny insists on blocking the exit - which was what it was doing when we last saw it.

You're right, if Sunny seeks to escape though, they probably wouldn't make much effort to stop it.

[danielxcutter]

Beholders are kinda BS to fight because of the antimagic cone; it might have been okay in editions where magic bonuses weren’t mandatory(and even then shutting down certain classes entirely sucks) but in 3.5e at least unless the party’s invested in nonmagical ranged attacks a lot it can just use the Telekinesis ray to beat you to death by throwing rocks into the cone.

[Peelee]

Well, the obvious answer is that they would want to do so if Sunny insists on blocking the exit - which was what it was doing when we last saw it.

You're right, if Sunny seeks to escape though, they probably wouldn't make much effort to stop it.

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted. At which point Sunny was simply talking to Elan. I think "blocking the exit" is not an accurate description of what Sunny was intentionally doing.

Not to mention that anti-magic field as a denial tactic doesn't work terribly well if Sunny floats down at melee range.

[Liquor Box]

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted. At which point Sunny was simply talking to Elan. I think "blocking the exit" is not an accurate description of what Sunny was intentionally doing.

Not to mention that anti-magic field as a denial tactic doesn't work terribly well if Sunny floats down at melee range.

So you thnk Sunny just went down to the hole to say good bye to Serini, rather than to block it off? I though the refusal to step aside suggested it was intentionally blocking the exit.

Either way, flying to ground level does leave it vulnerable. It could fly up into the sky again while Elan revives his companions, if it doesn't care about them following Serini though. If it doesn't do that immediately, a power attack from Roy could finish it though.

Really it still comes down to what Fyraltari said a page back - does Sunny want to escape, or stop the Order following Serini. If the former it will probably be able to (although not without some danger), but if the latter it will probably fail unless it puts itself into considerable danger.

Beholders are kinda BS to fight because of the antimagic cone; it might have been okay in editions where magic bonuses weren’t mandatory(and even then shutting down certain classes entirely sucks) but in 3.5e at least unless the party’s invested in nonmagical ranged attacks a lot it can just use the Telekinesis ray to beat you to death by throwing rocks into the cone.

I reckon its great that there are some rules in the game which counter the magic dominates everything at higher levels problem. Bring on more stuff that shut down magic I reckon.

[danielxcutter]

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted. At which point Sunny was simply talking to Elan. I think "blocking the exit" is not an accurate description of what Sunny was intentionally doing.

Not to mention that anti-magic field as a denial tactic doesn't work terribly well if Sunny floats down at melee range.

I mean, Minrah and Elan are the only ones capable of attacking Sunny at all. In an AMF, Minrah can't buff, Elan can't use bardic magic, and neither of them can benefit from magic items or get Roy or Durkon back into the fight.

A particularly sadistic DM might have Sunny angle the AMF cone so they can still use Telekinesis to throw the petrified Durkon(which would probably also damage him enough to prevent him being revived), but even back in Don't Split the Party with the advanced pit fiend and Thieves' Guild and ABD the "DM" was never that bad.

I reckon its great that there are some rules in the game which counter the magic dominates everything at higher levels problem. Bring on more stuff that shut down magic I reckon.

I would approve of it more if not for two things; the stats of encounters inherently account for magical bonuses and sometimes magical defenses like Freedom of Movement, and that it makes spellcasters almost entirely useless without min-maxing cheese most people don't even consider using.

[Peelee]

So you thnk Sunny just went down to the hole to say good bye to Serini, rather than to block it off?

Sunny was shooting at those following Serini and then following up with an anti-magic field, until distracted.

Sunny had no intention to block the exit, and even offered to step aside at first. They only objected because they thought they were being tricked. I feel safe in saying that if the rest of the party were on their feet, armed with melee weapons, rushing towards where Sunny is, and enough time for Serini to have bolted back to her hidey hole (a round or two, maybe ten, maybe twenty seconds; Sunny certainly knows the details on getting back there), Sunny would have no reason to block the exit.

It is remarkably unlikely that Sunny is in danger, or that Serini has any reason to think Sunny will be in danger.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, she thinks they'll try to destroy the Gate no matter what. I don't really think she has any sort of faith in them.

That being said, "the only people capable of even scratching Sunny chasing after her" is probably more than enough.

[Peelee]

I mean, she thinks they'll try to destroy the Gate no matter what. I don't really think she has any sort of faith in them.

Her belief about what they intend to do with the Gate as a last ditch action is irrelevant to any belief she may have about what they would do in any other situation.

[Emanick]

This gets into questions of whether you consider a teenager to be a child that I'll avoid here. Suffice to say his mother referred to him that way.

The dragon V killed was a Young Adult. A Young Adult is an adult. An adult is not a child, by definition.

Ergo, when V killed him, s/he was not killing a child.

It may have been ethically problematic in other ways (I'd argue not, since it was basically self-defense, but that's at least debatable), but it was not child-slaying.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion. Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that. It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either. And it's not like they couldn't have tried to retreat or parley either.

[Emanick]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion. Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that. It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either. And it's not like they couldn't have tried to retreat or parley either.

It was an unlabeled cave. The Order can't be blamed for venturing in; there was absolutely no sign of sentient habitation that we saw. They were attacked on sight and attempted to flee before fighting back.

I guess they could have employed divination magic to find out if the cave was inhabited by sentient beings before venturing in, or tried to flee for longer before fighting back (although Elan seems to have become pinned by the dragon during the very first round of combat, so even that may not have been morally defensible), but aside from that, it's hard to see what else they could have done.

[Metastachydium]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion.

Those damn dragons shouldn't have chosen to live in such an obviously cool adventure location!

Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that.

But its scales weren't all shiny!

It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either.

Roy thought that this is the only way to fix his sword, though. How crucial a resource that was at the point is up to debate, of course.

[Bacon Elemental]

By the standards of adventurers, the Order's actions at the Starmetal Cave weren't exactly out of hand (As much as V executing the charmed dragon was the catalyst for a whole heap of very unpleasant things, it's hard to categorise as being much worse than the coup-de-graces against the goblins who succumbed to V's not-spell.


Of course, the standards of adventurers are rarely a good moral code to stand by, and definitely not in that case, ha ha. Any of the other party members other than belkar could probbably have defused the situation if they'd been the polymorphed lizard without immediately resorting to "cast mind control spells and hope he Roll a natural 1 on his save", given the dragon's amicability to them as a harmless lizard and obvious combat superiority to the rest of the order.

[Metastachydium]

By the standards of adventurers, the Order's actions at the Starmetal Cave weren't exactly out of hand (As much as V executing the charmed dragon was the catalyst for a whole heap of very unpleasant things,

Well, while hardly commendable, it was still a lot better than enslaving and actively torturing Yukyuk which happened after those unpleasant things.

it's hard to categorise as being much worse than the coup-de-graces against the goblins who succumbed to V's not-spell.

That one reflected quite poorly on them too, yes.

[hroþila]

I mean, it was basically a house invasion.

It was not. The Order only reached the dragons' home later, after squeezing through an underwater tunnel.

[hamishspence]

That's like the bedroom of a house, and the "front porch" is the pit in the ground near where the meteor hit.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0180.html

[danielxcutter]

It was not. The Order only reached the dragons' home later, after squeezing through an underwater tunnel.

That was still basically the front door, though.

Edit: aaaaand swordsage’d.

[Psyren]

Parents will refer to their offspring as their child regardless of actual age category.

Sure. Like I said, I'm not touching/getting goaded into that discussion.

The dragon V killed was a Young Adult. A Young Adult is an adult. An adult is not a child, by definition.

Ergo, when V killed him, s/he was not killing a child.

It may have been ethically problematic in other ways (I'd argue not, since it was basically self-defense, but that's at least debatable), but it was not child-slaying.

I mean, it was basically a house invasion. Maybe it wasn't an outright Evil act, but the dragon hadn't actually done anything that we know of before that. It's not like the Order was after some crucial resource(to their knowledge) at the time either. And it's not like they couldn't have tried to retreat or parley either.

And this is why. Once you start debating the adulthood of the dragon in question, "Was the Order morally justified" conversations are inevitable.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, if the deva didn’t mention it, it’s presumably not too bad.

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

And as the Planetar showed in O-Chul’s story, celestials have a rather dim view of killing mortals, even “monstrous races”, for little reason.

[Riftwolf]

I mean, if the deva didn’t mention it, it’s presumably not too bad.

Spoiler: GDGU

Show

And as the Planetar showed in O-Chul’s story, celestials have a rather dim view of killing mortals, even “monstrous races”, for little reason.

I guess early comics don't count to your permanent record.

[Peelee]

The Order, quite simply, didn't kill the dragon. V did. The Order did not know they were invading a dwelling, attempted to run, and defended themselves when that failed. V neutralized the dragon, and effectively held the Order hostage. V then slayed the dragon alone.

Regardless of anything else, that was purely on V's head, not the Order's as a whole.