Drow.. lore?

[Kyberwulf]

Not really looking for mechanical information. I was just curious about what has changed with the new setting lore? Also wondering if there are new books ,and how it changes the past RA Salvatore books.

[Tarmor]

Not really looking for mechanical information. I was just curious about what has changed with the new setting lore? Also wondering if there are new books ,and how it changes the past RA Salvatore books.

New novels, or new RPG books? The Salvatore books span about 4 editions of D&D, so the drow 'lore' in those isn't specifically game (edition) related. What "new setting" are you referring to? You might be better asking this in the Role-Playing forum.

[Khedrac]

Do remember that Drow lore varies from game-world to game-world.

Just looking at the three of the main D&D game-worlds Drow were introduced to Greyhawk first (as a spider-themed threat no-one knew anything about) then had their lore greatly expanded for the Forgotten Realms as a threat from below that the surface people hated and feared before having all previous lore thrown away and were re-developed with a scorpion theme for Ebberon.
I don't know if drow are even supposed to exist on Krynn (Dalamar was described as a 'dark elf' but it was unclear if that was because he had dark skin or simply because he was a black-robe magician). Actually there is also a reference in the short story "The Trial of the Twins" (or similar) that might be a drow.

So, has the lore varied from edition to edition? Yes, to a degree as far as the authors need to take account of new rule sets, but there is far more variation from game-world to game-world as different authors want to do different things with drow in their world (or their part of the world).

Looking aback at the original question, most Forgotten Reams drow lore comes from the RA Salvatore novels, but that is not the origin of drow lore for the realms (Ed Greenwood had the drow stirring in the depth beneath Shadowdale before the realms was even submitted to TSR as a potential new campaign world) and this followed Gary Gygax's introduction of the drow to Greyhawk (D1-2, D3 & Q1).

[Dr.Samurai]

Not really looking for mechanical information. I was just curious about what has changed with the new setting lore? Also wondering if there are new books ,and how it changes the past RA Salvatore books.

I think they unveiled that there are three major drow cultures in FR and I think two of them are good and one is the traditional drow that we know about (Lolth worshiping) and I think the evil ones are now visually obvious because they have white scars or tattoos or something. One of the other cultures are illusionists so they've been hiding this whole time and only just now revealed themselves to the world. I don't recall much about the other one. This is all hazy and probably wrong but I do recall an article or something talking about these changes or retcons.

[t209]

Well, I wouldn’t mind if it weren’t for RA Salvatore dislike of Eilistraee leaking to Wizards of the Coast.
I mean they can just make Starlight/Drowtales knockoff and Aeven/Jungle Drow as remnants of Eilistraee Drow civilization.
Also I think he forgot Crown Wars, which did kinda create Drow civilization thanks to Sun Elves’ multiple genocides causing many Eilistraee temples to be destroyed and drove them into Underdark.

[JadedDM]

I don't know if drow are even supposed to exist on Krynn (Dalamar was described as a 'dark elf' but it was unclear if that was because he had dark skin or simply because he was a black-robe magician). Actually there is also a reference in the short story "The Trial of the Twins" (or similar) that might be a drow.

There are no Drow in Dragonlance, no. 'Dark Elf' is a term for any elf that is kicked out of their homeland for whatever reason (such as becoming a Black Robed Wizard), for they have been 'cast out of the light' and can never return home.

Dalamar has always been depicted as having white skin. He's a dark elf because he was kicked out for being evil.

[Kyberwulf]

I meant, I heard that they were changing a lot of the Forgotten Realms Drow, because of peoples dislike of the whole Dark Skins are evil thing. So I don't know if they were retconning a lot of previous stuff, or what.

I don't care about actual mechanics or game specifics stuff. So I don't think this really goes into the D&D parts. I mostly just want to know lore stuff. Book changes and things.

[t209]

I meant, I heard that they were changing a lot of the Forgotten Realms Drow, because of peoples dislike of the whole Dark Skins are evil thing. So I don't know if they were retconning a lot of previous stuff, or what.

I don't care about actual mechanics or game specifics stuff. So I don't think this really goes into the D&D parts. I mostly just want to know lore stuff. Book changes and things.

At the same time, they still want to make Drizzt special one. Aka definitely Salvatore don’t want Eilistraee in his and by extension mainstream lore.
Edit: I mean if he was in Waterdeep but Greenwood version, he can just ask Qilue and local Church of Eilistraee to get a ship to Calimshan.

[runeghost]

The lack of attention given Greenwood's Eilistraee in more recent official material is sad - she is a great addition, both thematically, and game-mechanically,

[t209]

The lack of attention given Greenwood's Eilistraee in more recent official material is sad - she is a great addition, both thematically, and game-mechanically,

Part of me wonder is because A. Drizzt being more popular (again, I only know Eilistraee once I got into 5E..but Baldur's Gate 3 have her) or B. Eilistraee's sexualized nature (even up to their ritual nude dance, but Drizzt still had sexualization but evil) or C. Both.

[Irennan]

Part of me wonder is because A. Drizzt being more popular (again, I only know Eilistraee once I got into 5E..but Baldur's Gate 3 have her) or B. Eilistraee's sexualized nature (even up to their ritual nude dance, but Drizzt still had sexualization but evil) or C. Both.

Eilistraee's dances are not sexual in nature, despite nudity. Similar rituals have existed IRL, that I know. As for the role of those rituals, you can easily see them as helping drow converts acclimate themselves to the idea that vulnerability and spontaneity are sometimes ok, rather than being taboo like it is in Lolthite society, as well as reveling in the ownership of your body (which Lolthite society policies like mad). Eilistraee granting a f->m or m->f sex transition in the form of a ritual dance (as recently explained by Greenwood) also reinforces this concept, as it goes in tandem with being a foil to Lolth's rigidly gendered society. Finally, dance (as well as the rhythm of song), learning to synch with others, becoming in touch with your body, are among of the tools used to help cure trauma and PTSD, and former Lolthites are 100% going to be traumatized.

Salvatore and his fetishization of lesbians, random rape scenes (Dhalia in one of the latest books), randomly hyper-sexy drow villainesses, and orgies with demon that sound like they came straight out of a certain kind of hentai, OTOH... I find it ironic that the faction that most people associate with nudity isn't sexual in nature, but the one that people tend to deem "more serious" has A LOT of forced sexualization. I mean, if WotC has no problem with that, I don't see why they should with a religious ritual that involves nudity. It's not like Eilistraeans walk around naked either (the lore actually explicitly tells you that they aren't nudists and tend to dress in a rather practical way).

Thing is, some WotC devs have a long story of personal bias against Eilistraee, and Salvatore himself has stated multiple times to really dislike her. That's likely one of the reasons why Eilistraee isn't more present in 5e material, personal bias (of course it's likely that there's there's more to it, but personal bias seem to be involved too).

[Millstone85]

I think they unveiled that there are three major drow cultures in FR and I think two of them are good and one is the traditional drow that we know about (Lolth worshiping)

I did not know that. But looking into it, I see the same problem I already had with other good or not-so-evil drow.

What is the main appeal of the drow? For me, it is that they live in the Underdark. When other elves build cities of treehouses, or fortresses of coral, the drow make their homes amidst giant stalactites and stalagmites.

But alas, elves apparently see the Underdark and demon worship as a package deal. Drizzt fled to the surface. Eilistraee calls her followers to come dancing under the moon. In Critical Role, the Kryn Dynasty would rather create areas of everlasting night than return under the ground. And now I learn of these "aevendrow" and "lorendrow" who never made the descent to begin with.

If a drow isn't an evil underdark elf, they ought to be a night elf. No other option.

[t209]

I did not know that. But looking into it, I see the same problem I already had with other good or not-so-evil drow.

What is the main appeal of the drow? For me, it is that they live in the Underdark. When other elves build cities of treehouses, or fortresses of coral, the drow make their homes amidst giant stalactites and stalagmites.

But alas, elves apparently see the Underdark and demon worship as a package deal. Drizzt fled to the surface. Eilistraee calls her followers to come dancing under the moon. In Critical Role, the Kryn Dynasty would rather create areas of everlasting night than return under the ground. And now I learn of these "aevendrow" and "lorendrow" who never made the descent to begin with.

If a drow isn't an evil underdark elf, they ought to be a night elf. No other option.

Drizzt seems to be a major draw for one. Compared to Eilistraee, he does have edgy solo and loner vibe than "A happy fun Drow handing out cookies and dancing even if said villagers are running away".
Other see them as breaking the archetypes from forest-dwelling and "morally good" immortals. Plus the leather and bondage style outfits too.

[Millstone85]

Drizzt seems to be a major draw for one. Compared to Eilistraee, he does have edgy solo and loner vibe than "A happy fun Drow handing out cookies and dancing even if said villagers are running away".
Other see them as breaking the archetypes from forest-dwelling and "morally good" immortals. Plus the leather and bondage style outfits too.

Well, I doubt the new drow check any of these boxes either:

• The closest thing to an edgy loner culture is isolationism. And while they do live in hidden cities, so do most other elves.
• The lorendrow, also known as greenshadow elves, are jungle-dwelling. And it is said here that their society is harmonious, as they draw wisdom from the forest, earth and sky. So yeah, they are your typical wood elves, just painted grey.
• The aevendrow, or starlight elves, are proficient mages living in the frozen north. It is said here that their society is the opposite of Menzoberranzan. So, ice-dwelling high elves?
• I don't know if they are into bondage leather, but I would guess not.

[Vahnavoi]

There are no Drow in Dragonlance, no. 'Dark Elf' is a term for any elf that is kicked out of their homeland for whatever reason (such as becoming a Black Robed Wizard), for they have been 'cast out of the light' and can never return home.

Dalamar has always been depicted as having white skin. He's a dark elf because he was kicked out for being evil.

Came here to say this.

In general, "dark elf" is much less specific than drow and their portrayal varies significantly. "Dark" can refer to any or all of:

1) living in literal darkness (underground or under starlight)
2) being nocturnal
3) living in figurative darkness (being ignorant or morally evil)
4) having skin that can be described as "dark", including both realistic human skintones (light to dark brown or black) and fantastic skintones (coal black, grey, blue, purple etc.)

For example, in Tolkien work, "dark elf" can either refer to Moriquendi (elves who didn't journey to Aman and lived under starlight in Middle-Earth, never seeing the light preceding creation of the Sun and the Moon) or a small number of specific people who were called "dark elves" for unexplained reasons. In Warhammer, Dark Elves/Eldar are evil elves who practice necromancy or worship Slaanesh. In neither case does "dark" describe skintone, Tolkienian Moriquendi are (IIRC) described as fair-skinned while Warhammer Dark Elves are typically pale-skinned brunettes.

In a similar vein, Drow have not been consistently portrayed as resembling dark-skinned humans, even less Africans. Drow as they were initially described and AD&D were underground-dwelling social darwinist bizarro world mirrors of above-ground elves, their dark-skin-white-hair-red-eyes color scheme came from black widows, if Lolth being consistently described as a giant black widow didn't tip you off.

[t209]

Came here to say this.

In general, "dark elf" is much less specific than drow and their portrayal varies significantly. "Dark" can refer to any or all of:

1) living in literal darkness (underground or under starlight)
2) being nocturnal
3) living in figurative darkness (being ignorant or morally evil)
4) having skin that can be described as "dark", including both realistic human skintones (light to dark brown or black) and fantastic skintones (coal black, grey, blue, purple etc.)

For example, in Tolkien work, "dark elf" can either refer to Moriquendi (elves who didn't journey to Aman and lived under starlight in Middle-Earth, never seeing the light preceding creation of the Sun and the Moon) or a small number of specific people who were called "dark elves" for unexplained reasons. In Warhammer, Dark Elves/Eldar are evil elves who practice necromancy or worship Slaanesh. In neither case does "dark" describe skintone, Tolkienian Moriquendi are (IIRC) described as fair-skinned while Warhammer Dark Elves are typically pale-skinned brunettes.

In a similar vein, Drow have not been consistently portrayed as resembling dark-skinned humans, even less Africans. Drow as they were initially described and AD&D were underground-dwelling social darwinist bizarro world mirrors of above-ground elves, their dark-skin-white-hair-red-eyes color scheme came from black widows, if Lolth being consistently described as a giant black widow didn't tip you off.

Well, if you count some art making Drow look like Tina Turner. Unless the artist misintrepret Dark Elves* as "elves with dark skin as in human" or watched Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome and imagined someone playing as a gnome/halfling/goblin/kobold riding on an orc/ogre to challenge her authority.

[Draconi Redfir]

yeah, i prefer the pitch-black skintones, maybe very light purple or blue tones to it. Gives the Drow less of an uncanny valley look to them, and makes them look more visually appealing anyways.

Brown, gray, and light-blue skin just don't match my mental image of "Drow" at all.

[Millstone85]

yeah, i prefer the pitch-black skintones, maybe very light purple or blue tones to it. Gives the Drow less of an uncanny valley look to them, and makes them look more visually appealing anyways.

Brown, gray, and light-blue skin just don't match my mental image of "Drow" at all.

Whereas my mental image of drow runs the gamut of greys, from coal black to snow white, sometimes with a touch of purple. Also, wood elven skintones are mixes of brown and green, which is why they are also known as copper elves.

[t209]

Speaking of Drow lore, I like to mention the inspiration behind them. Elric of Melnibone.
At least “lone member of an evil race who ran away due to how depraved they are”. Many Melnibonean elements were added to Drows, mostly torture, slavery, and depraved decadence.
Except Elric is frail and sickly, carry a cursed sword just to move, still share the patronizing and arrogant way of his people, and a tragic hero (he lost everyone, even his own life).
Drizzt is more heroic and compassionate by contrast.