Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[InvisibleBison]

I'd honestly be surprised to learn that Belkar has an actual penalty to CHA. He's quite a capable manipulator, very good at lying and intimidation and in terms of success with women, second only to Elan from among the members of the party that swing that way. Do we have anything beyond one (1) snarky comment from V (of all people) that would indicate he really is low-CHA?

In my earlier post I was used the current stats for Belkar for simplicity's sake. However, now that I'm not muddying the waters of another point that I'm making, I agree; the current evidence for Belkar's Charisma penalty is not really sufficient. There's a lot of ways "without any Charisma" could be taken, not all of which preclude him having a Cha bonus of +0 or even +1.

[Crusher]

In my earlier post I was used the current stats for Belkar for simplicity's sake. However, now that I'm not muddying the waters of another point that I'm making, I agree; the current evidence for Belkar's Charisma penalty is not really sufficient. There's a lot of ways "without any Charisma" could be taken, not all of which preclude him having a Cha bonus of +0 or even +1.

Yeah, I mean, compared to Elan, Belkar could have a 14 CHR and still get lumped in with Durkon.

Edit - I mean, obviously we don't know one way or the other, and I'd be surprised if Belkar's CHR was actually as high as 14. But a 12 feels entirely appropriate and isn't his stat budget a little light anyway?

[Ephemera]

I think we are honoring the word of characters here for one of the subtle not-quite-written thread rules, which is that if one of our principles (in this case "characters are assumed to know what they are talking about when they reference another character's stats) allows us to draw any sort of conclusion, we take it unless it contradicts other actual evidence.

This sometimes leads us to conclusions that seem a little dodgy in terms of "most likely explanation" but allows us to actually fill in stat blocks instead of just leaving them as question marks.

[Metastachydium]

I think we are honoring the word of characters here for one of the subtle not-quite-written thread rules, which is that if one of our principles (in this case "characters are assumed to know what they are talking about when they reference another character's stats) allows us to draw any sort of conclusion, we take it unless it contradicts other actual evidence.

This sometimes leads us to conclusions that seem a little dodgy in terms of "most likely explanation" but allows us to actually fill in stat blocks instead of just leaving them as question marks.

I mean, Belkar is consistently shown to be very succesful at basically all Charisma-based skills (barring special stuff like UMD/UPD), even Diplomacy if picking up women is based off of that. Meanwhile, the implication that he has no CHA comes from V, who previously implied his WIS of 9 is a value reserved for lemmings and that he is dumber than mindless in terms of INT. I'm kind of disinclined to trust V's judgement here, frankly.

[Peelee]

I mean, Belkar is consistently shown to be very succesful at basically all Charisma-based skills (barring special stuff like UMD/UPD), even Diplomacy if picking up women is based off of that. Meanwhile, the implication that he has no CHA comes from V, who previously implied his WIS of 9 is a value reserved for lemmings and that he is dumber than mindless in terms of INT. I'm kind of disinclined to trust V's judgement here, frankly.

V, also, being famously poor at Charisma, probably can't recognize it well regardless.

[woweedd]

I mean, Belkar is consistently shown to be very succesful at basically all Charisma-based skills (barring special stuff like UMD/UPD), even Diplomacy if picking up women is based off of that. Meanwhile, the implication that he has no CHA comes from V, who previously implied his WIS of 9 is a value reserved for lemmings and that he is dumber than mindless in terms of INT. I'm kind of disinclined to trust V's judgement here, frankly.

Hm. Honestly, it seems like Belkar's Charisma is...Odd. While I know this isn't how this thread works, just from context, it seems like Belkar can be superficially charming, but anyone who has to spend more then a day in his presence IE the Order finds him repellant. Pre-character development, it sorta seems like Elan would be the only person in the Order to mourn him, and even now, anyone save him, Minrah, and probably Durkon, is probably a long shot. And as for his Wisdom...Hm. Again, thread rules, this is kinda unrelated, but I always assumed that his being able to cast was artistic license. 9 while it is low, is only one point below average, which feels way too high for someone who has consistently been shown to be terrible at most of what the stat entails (Tracking, perceptiveness, thinking things through in general, will saves ETC). Also, hilariously, i'd like to note: V is actually overestimating Belkar there: If he actually the Wisdom of a Lemming, he could cast spells, they're slightly above-average!

[Reboot]

Hm. Honestly, it seems like Belkar's Charisma is...Odd. While I know this isn't how this thread works, just from context, it seems like Belkar can be superficially charming, but anyone who has to spend more then a day in his presence IE the Order finds him repellant. Pre-character development, it sorta seems like Elan would be the only person in the Order to mourn him,...

"Truly, he was the best of us." :p

[Metastachydium]

Hm. Honestly, it seems like Belkar's Charisma is...Odd. While I know this isn't how this thread works, just from context, it seems like Belkar can be superficially charming, but anyone who has to spend more then a day in his presence IE the Order finds him repellant.

I don't think that's odd. Not mechanically, at at any rate. He can Bluff Roy, Intimidate Elan or fool Durkon with Disguise – but cannot make them like him. That would, if he actively used rules-based means, be Diplomacy-based and
–that doesn't work on PCs, that the rest of the Order are;
–comes with circumstance penalties if used on someone whose face one regularly rubs being an omnicidal jerk into by RAW; or
–a vastly increased DC and other strings under the Giant's own overhaul of the skill.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think that's odd. Not mechanically, at at any rate. He can Bluff Roy, Intimidate Elan or fool Durkon with Disguise – but cannot make them like him. That would, if he actively used rules-based means, be Diplomacy-based and
–that doesn't work on PCs, that the rest of the Order are;
–comes with circumstance penalties if used on someone whose face one regularly rubs being an omnicidal jerk into by RAW; or
–a vastly increased DC and other strings under the Giant's own overhaul of the skill.

You're quite correct.

Also Belkar needed to be talked into NOT antagonizing others and society on principle by the Shojo vision.

Belkar can convince people of something with Diplomacy, and he can also make himself be liked by people, but a combination of never bothering before a few months, doing the opposite on purpose to rile people up, and as you said being openly an omnicidal jerk who does things like eat food from a fresh skull or make his cat use a mind controlled person as a litter box means he's spent his whole life gathering negative good will from everyone around him.

Those who meet him post-fake-then-real-character-development are far more disposed to give him the benefit of the doubt and building a relationship from there.

[Emberlily]

a roughly similar example we see is Tarquin, who is overtly listed as having high charisma, and comes across as affable and superficially charming, but spending time w him has a very high success rate of "losing respect or actively disliking him", from the order to his former adventuring party to his former spouses (the ones he didn't kidnap) to, to a variable extent of course, the audience

(there's also xykon, who might very well have the highest charisma score of any named character, yet has one (1) person who liked him. but he doesn't really come across as charming after he died so it's not really analogous)

[Unoriginal]

(there's also xykon, who might very well have the highest charisma score of any named character, yet has one (1) person who liked him. but he doesn't really come across as charming after he died so it's not really analogous)

Redcloak has to warn Jirix that while Xykon seems funny and charming, it's only until he starts getting creative.

[b_jonas]

(there's also xykon, who might very well have the highest charisma score of any named character, yet has one (1) person who liked him.)

At least two. Yydranna (from Start of Darkness page 17) and Tuskiko.

[woweedd]

a roughly similar example we see is Tarquin, who is overtly listed as having high charisma, and comes across as affable and superficially charming, but spending time w him has a very high success rate of "losing respect or actively disliking him", from the order to his former adventuring party to his former spouses (the ones he didn't kidnap) to, to a variable extent of course, the audience

(there's also xykon, who might very well have the highest charisma score of any named character, yet has one (1) person who liked him. but he doesn't really come across as charming after he died so it's not really analogous)

Notably, all three of Belkar, Xykon, and Tarquin have their charm borne out by a shared trait: Their out of universe fanbases are quite large. Evidently, their charm, superficial as it may be, can extend even beyond the fourth wall.

[Ruck]

I'd estimate the Order ranked by Charisma would go Elan, Haley, Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, although I think Belkar is closer to Roy than it seems or is agreed upon in the OP. The last two are the only ones I'd describe as non-charismatic.

Speaking of the OP, while I was looking for something else* I noticed the "espresto box" link goes to #84 when it should go to #85.

(* - There was a bit of discussion in one of the comic threads over whether Miron was a wizard or a sorcerer, and I realized I just assumed he was a sorcerer without really thinking about it. So I decided to see if there was any consensus here, and it looks like there's not. Maybe sorcerer is just the vibe I get from him. Or that the spells we see him use make more sense with spontaneous casting, since he probably didn't know Tarquin was going to call him into action when the day began. But who knows, maybe Horrid Wilting is part of his daily carry.)

[woweedd]

I'd estimate the Order ranked by Charisma would go Elan, Haley, Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, although I think Belkar is closer to Roy than it seems or is agreed upon in the OP. The last two are the only ones I'd describe as non-charismatic.

Speaking of the OP, while I was looking for something else* I noticed the "espresto box" link goes to #84 when it should go to #85.

(* - There was a bit of discussion in one of the comic threads over whether Miron was a wizard or a sorcerer, and I realized I just assumed he was a sorcerer without really thinking about it. So I decided to see if there was any consensus here, and it looks like there's not. Maybe sorcerer is just the vibe I get from him. Or that the spells we see him use make more sense with spontaneous casting, since he probably didn't know Tarquin was going to call him into action when the day began. But who knows, maybe Horrid Wilting is part of his daily carry.)

I'd argue Durkon may be above Belkar. Dude's not the most exciting, but he's been stable and generally respected in the party for a while and, even since the vampire incident, he's seemed to gain some actual force of personality.

As to Mirron, I don't know what he is, but since he seems to be filling the secondary arcane caster role that Elan/Girard/Nale fill in their respective parties, so i'd be willing to bet, whatever he is, he's less powerful as a caster (Psion, technically, but eh) then Laurin, in the same way Elan the bard is less of a caster than Vaarsuvius the wizard, and Girard the multiclassed ranger/sorcerer is less of a caster than Dorukan the single-classed wizard. Borne out from what we see of their abilities: Laurin spams Wormholes and 9th-level powers like nobody's business, while Mirrion never casts anything above the 8th-level Horrid Wilting. Possibly multiclassed, but i'd be wiling to bet he's a lower level caster. If we're getting into unproven headcanon: He's a Wizard, one of a lower level then Laurin's Psion...But his scarf is actually concealing the features, and attendant ECL increase, of a Half-Fiend, thus allowing him to keep up with the rest of the party.

[danielxcutter]

I’d imagine Malack was the secondary caster actually, with Miron and Lauren being the primary casters; he’s a lot less good of a caster but has vampire abilities to make up for it.

[b_jonas]

Interesting. I get the opposite impression, namely that Miron is the more powerful single-classed wizard, while Laurin is a less effective Psion who may be multiclassed, or perhaps just spent some skill points or other character growth resources onto also being a competent interior designer and plumber. Yes, Laurin manifested powers of one level higher, but that comes with being a Psion: they have an option to cast only fewer spells but all of them high level, while wizards like Laurin and Vaarsuvius cast much more spells per day but some of them will be low level. Miron was more effective in the battle against the Order even while using low level spells, dispelling Vaarsuvius's spell, and eventually polymorphing Bloodfeast. And I think by that point he already used a lot of his spells helping out with the war in Amun-Zora's city. Laurin used flashier high level spells against the Order, but they weren't as useful. Vaarsuvius knew this, which is why she had the more serious threat, Miron, attacked first. Vaarsuvius received information about Miron and Laurin before that, so she was likely right.

[danielxcutter]

Psions actually have pretty decent class skills outside just psionics depending on which discipline they pick and all of them get Profession. And they're Int-based manifesters so they have a lot of skill points.

Also remember that Lauren is both a) able and willing to set power points on fire and b) had been manifesting a lot of powers before combat even started. Vaarsuvius used the information from Sabine to provoke her to spend even more, and exploit Miron's Contingency spell to kick him out of the fight before he could actually cast any high-level spells.

Hmm. He wouldn't have been able to Teleport back even if he could cast it at that moment, because he didn't know where it was right? If he's a wizard, I can see him not preparing it given how Lauren on her own is more than enough to be the party taxi.

[woweedd]

I’d imagine Malack was the secondary caster actually, with Miron and Lauren being the primary casters; he’s a lot less good of a caster but has vampire abilities to make up for it.

Malack is the Divine Caster. I said secondary ARCANE caster. Smarter people have noted that, of the various parties in OOTS, they all follow a general template in combat roles of "primary melee fighter, big burly armored guy, male, often the leader" (Roy, Thog, Soon, Shoulderpad Guy), "sneaky one, female" (Haley, Sabine, Serini, Jacinda), "primary arcane caster" (V, Z/Pompey, Dorukan, Laurin-technically-not-but-still), "secondary arcane caster" (Elan, Nale, Girard, Miron), "divine caster" (Durkon, Hiygia/replacements thereof, Lirian, Malack), and "secondary melee fighter, usually less armored and/or more focused on agility then raw power" (Belkar, Assorted Kobolds, Tarquin, Kraggor). From this pattern, I assuming Miron is the guild's resident equivalent, tactically-speaking, to Elan or Nale or Girard, and, thus, less of a caster then Laurin, in the same way Elan the Bard is less of a caster then V the Wizard, Nale the tri-classed faux-Bard is less of a spellcaster then Z, and Girard the illusion-obsessed Sorcerer with a bit of Ranger is less of a caster then the single-classed Wizard Dorukan. The half-fiend thing is just guessing, since of those three, all of them have a different WAY of being secondary, but regardless.

[Metastachydium]

I'd argue Durkon may be above Belkar. Dude's not the most exciting, but he's been stable and generally respected in the party for a while and, even since the vampire incident, he's seemed to gain some actual force of personality.

Like I said, Belkar is shown to be very good at all things CHA-based quite consistently, and the only people on whom his CHA-based stuff doesn't really tend to work (excepting Disguise and occasionally Itimidate, Elan) are the Order – because they know him. Meanwhile, Durkon is the guy who used to be so bad at CHA that people wanted to murder him just to be rid of his insufferable face. Yes, his party and family like and respect him – but only because they know him.

[Ruck]

Like I said, Belkar is shown to be very good at all things CHA-based quite consistently, and the only people on whom his CHA-based stuff doesn't really tend to work (excepting Disguise and occasionally Itimidate, Elan) are the Order – because they know him. Meanwhile, Durkon is the guy who used to be so bad at CHA that people wanted to murder him just to be rid of his insufferable face. Yes, his party and family like and respect him – but only because they know him.

Yeah, I don't think "people who know you respect you because you're reliable" is a measure of charisma.

[b_jonas]

of the various parties in OOTS, they all follow a general template

The Linear Guild follows the same pattern as the Order because Nale specifically assembled a team of evil opposites (see #254 10th). The other parties don't fit the same pattern all that well.

[Nith]

Something that I think affects the dynamic of the Vector Legion quite a lot is the fact that as a vampire cleric, Malack did not have access to the divine casting power of other clerics of comparable character power level. Instead he brings other very unique powers of course. I think this changes the way they function as a team, which might have consequences for the other spellcasters as well.

My point is that we cannot make a lot of conclusions on the roles and abilities of Laurin and Miron based on the fairly small things we've seen them do.

[halfeye]

Something that I think affects the dynamic of the Vector Legion quite a lot is the fact that as a vampire cleric, Malack did not have access to the divine casting power of other clerics of comparable character power level. Instead he brings other very unique powers of course. I think this changes the way they function as a team, which might have consequences for the other spellcasters as well.

My point is that we cannot make a lot of conclusions on the roles and abilities of Laurin and Miron based on the fairly small things we've seen them do.

Malack was a cleric of Nergal, who was a god. How was Malack not a divine cleric?

[Peelee]

Malack was a cleric of Nergal, who was a god. How was Malack not a divine cleric?

They didn't claim he wasn't a divine cleric. They claimed that Malack, with an effective level of 21 (i think, the exact number s irrelevant) doesn't have access to the same divine powers (eg 9th level spells) as non-vampire clerics of similar effective level.

[Gurgeh]

to wit, Malack probably had fewer cleric levels than Durkon did during their confrontation in the pyramid. Yes, he's packing a bunch of other dangerous stuff, but a lot of that isn't going to neatly map to the stereotypical cleric toolset.

I also remain irritated by the inclusion of Crushing Weight of the Mountain in his statblock; I don't think it really reflects what happened on page and I don't think it has any explanatory power (nothing happens in that fight that isn't consistent with a straightforward SRD Vampire statblock).

On the flip side, if we're lowering the standard of proof for things then at least put Ranger in Oona's statblock, please and thank you.

[danielxcutter]

They didn't claim he wasn't a divine cleric. They claimed that Malack, with an effective level of 21 (i think, the exact number s irrelevant) doesn't have access to the same divine powers (eg 9th level spells) as non-vampire clerics of similar effective level.

For that matter, even if we go with the theory that the Legion are based around CR instead of ECL, Malack is likely two or even three caster levels behind Lauren and Miron, so he’s still not going to be doing the heavy lifting in terms of the caster role.

[Precure]

I'd say:

Malack = Durkon
Laurin = Vaarsuvius
Miron = Haley
Jacinda = Belkar
Tarquin = Elan
Roy = Shoulder Pads Guy

[Metastachydium]

I'd say:

Malack = Durkon
Laurin = Vaarsuvius
Miron = Haley
Jacinda = Belkar
Tarquin = Elan
Roy = Shoulder Pads Guy

While I'm skeptical regarding the whole Miron=Haley thing, in particular (I'm of two minds on Jacinda, because she totally is the nasty piece of crap murderhobo on the Legion's roster), yeah, people arguing that Miron is/was the Elan of the Vectors seem to forget that as per Word of the Giant, Tarquin canonically is the the Elan of the Vectors.

[Reboot]

While I'm skeptical regarding the whole Miron=Haley thing, in particular (I'm of two minds on Jacinda, because she totally is the nasty piece of crap murderhobo on the Legion's roster), yeah, people arguing that Miron is/was the Elan of the Vectors seem to forget that as per Word of the Giant, Tarquin canonically is the the Elan of the Vectors.

Depends what you're mirroring - not everyone reflects one character, after all. Tarquin is definitely the fighter of the VL - not a secondary caster - after all, regardless of personality/interaction comparisons.