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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    So, did we come to consensus about whether Lien's Paladin mount is a dire shark, or just a regular Large shark?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    "Look, Monk training involves toughening the body with repeated blows. That includes toughening the head with repeated blows to the head. A little brain damage is unavoidable, and I'd thank you not to mock my medical condition."

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    So, did we come to consensus about whether Lien's Paladin mount is a dire shark, or just a regular Large shark?
    Dire Shark:
    Pros - fits power/size, has Swallow Whole as ability.
    Cons - Swallow Whole deals acid damage, which is explicitly not being dealt. Could also be that Serini wasn't being moved into the stomach, just swallowed.
    Large Shark:
    Pros - fits size, does not have Swallow Whole as ability and so does not deal acid damage on swallowing.
    Cons - Does not have Swallow Whole as ability, Dire Shark is cooler and stronger.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    I don't think Razor is big enough to be a dire shark. By my measurements, Razor is about 4.13 times as long as Serini is tall. Female halflings can be between 2' 8" to 3' 2" tall, which means Razor is between 11 to 13 feet long (approximately). That's a reasonable for a large shark, which can be up to 15 feet long, but completely inadequate for a 25-foot-long dire shark.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Duly noted, Large Shark it is.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Since Swallow Whole deals acid damage, it would contradict Liens words a bit.

    I also don't think Razor is big enough, but that's hard to judge.
    A random thought attached to this, has there been a firing/rehiring of a familiar or a mount (as might happen when a player upgrades to Improved Familiar) in any of the side books (it seems like the sort of thing that'd be in SS&DT, but I've not read that)?

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    A random thought attached to this, has there been a firing/rehiring of a familiar or a mount (as might happen when a player upgrades to Improved Familiar) in any of the side books (it seems like the sort of thing that'd be in SS&DT, but I've not read that)?
    I am fairly sure there hasn't been. It does seem like the kind of thing Rich would depict, though. It seems so much up his alley that it wouldn't surprise me too much if, by some odd coincidence, it'd happened in the ~6 (IIRC) Gygax strips I haven't read.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I am fairly sure there hasn't been. It does seem like the kind of thing Rich would depict, though. It seems so much up his alley that it wouldn't surprise me too much if, by some odd coincidence, it'd happened in the ~6 (IIRC) Gygax strips I haven't read.
    My train of thought was, if Razor is indeed a dire shark, then either they were a dire shark since the Battle of Azure City (which would say something about Lien's level that might contradict other things in the comic), or Razor evolved into a Dire Shark, or Razor the regular shark was replaced by Razor the Legally Distinct Dire Shark when Lien reached the requisite level. I didn't know if Rich had covered the replacement of familiars/mounts before, which could've been a clue as to how it might've transpired.
    For what it's worth I doubt Razor is a Dire Shark based on Swallow Whole alone. I'd be very surprised if Swallow Whole wasn't a monstrous feat somewhere out in the splats.
    Last edited by Riftwolf; 2022-02-12 at 10:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    There are ways of improving an existing Swallow ability, but not much in the way of gaining a swallow ability if they don't already have one.

    However, I could see The Giant extrapolating downwards from "Dire Shark" - concluding that

    "If Dire Sharks can grab/swallow Medium creatures, Large Sharks ought to be able to grab/swallow Small creatures" and buffing the standard Large Shark slightly by adding the ability.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    I doubt we would get much in terms of useful numbers, but still have to ask. Can we infer anything about levels of bluff/sense motive based off the fact that neither rogue could determine if the other was bluffing?
    Last edited by dsollen; 2022-02-18 at 11:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Considering the nature of the d20 system and the fact that both skills are Rogue class skills... no.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Question: How does OotPCs say that Belkar has an int below 10? All I could find is that he says that he may not be the sharpest stick in the wood. I'd say that even with an int of 10 and a wis and cha under 10, it would fit.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    I wouldn't take that as related to his Charisma score, but otherwise yes it doesn't necessarily seem to indicate anything about stats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    Question: How does OotPCs say that Belkar has an int below 10? All I could find is that he says that he may not be the sharpest stick in the wood. I'd say that even with an int of 10 and a wis and cha under 10, it would fit.
    I've petitioned for that line from Belkar's entry to be removed before (I think that panels 5 and 6 of this strip are at least as strong evidence for Belkar having INT above 10 as the line from OOPC is for INT below 10), but it didn't gain any traction. Maybe an idea whose time has come?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    "Look, Monk training involves toughening the body with repeated blows. That includes toughening the head with repeated blows to the head. A little brain damage is unavoidable, and I'd thank you not to mock my medical condition."

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    So I delved into the archives to find out when it was added. Belkar's int was defined IX, but is in X. But in those threads I al found was

    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    I have a question: Where does it say in OOPC that Belkar's int is less than 10?
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    Doing a quick scan, all I see is:

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    Is there anything else there that I might be missing?
    It's not the original discussion, but maybe it's based on that line, maybe not.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Just as a heads up Haley's section has her adamantine dagger in front of the four extra wands which kind ruins the flow.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Two items:
    Elan is not listed as having 'Bleedingham papers' where Haley (and Vaarsuvius) are listed as having them.
    Secondly Haley perhaps should be listed as having her fathers bounty paper.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Question about Soon Kim.
    His Cra is listed as 14+ because of Sacred Watcher, but shouldn't it be 17+ 3 for age and 4 Sacred Watcher he appears to have died from old age.

    If this had been discussed before sorry. I am just bored at work.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Two items:
    Elan is not listed as having 'Bleedingham papers' where Haley (and Vaarsuvius) are listed as having them.
    Secondly Haley perhaps should be listed as having her fathers bounty paper.
    Also, Elan is listed as owning no armour, which is incorrect, since he retrieved his old outfit (presumably including the chain shirt) from Nale, he's just not been wearing it for some time now.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    I was looking at Belkar's entry, and a few things about his feats list concerned me. Here are the issues as I see them, and my suggested solutions.

    Firstly, there's the number of feats. Not counting the ranger bonus feats, there are 7, which would imply that Belkar is level 18 overall. In that none of the Order have demonstrated even level 17, I find this highly implausible of itself. The obvious candidate for removal is Craft Disturbing Mental Image, which it seems pretty clear to me was an end-panel punchline, not an informative comment by Belkar about his build.

    It gets worse though. As his other 6 feats are currently a 4-feat chain culminating in Bounding Assault (demonstrated in panel 9) and a 2-feat chain culminating in Improved Sunder (demonstrated here), it would be necessary, with the current feat list, for Belkar to be level 18 in strip #325! This, despite being patently ridiculous, would contradict his being exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight (deafened by Durkon's Holy Word), unless he lost 3 levels off-panel somehow, and didn't level between #325 and #860. Even dropping CDMI doesn't really resolve this, as it would still require Belkar to have the 4-feat chain by #176, and also the two-feat chain by #325, and to have been level 15 in both strips #325 and #860. I agree that Improved Sunder and Spring Attack are the best explanations of #325 and #928, but the package doesn't hang together at all well.

    Fortunately, there is a simple resolution. Two-Weapon Pounce was suggested at the time as an alternate explanation of Belkar's "flawless victory" in #176, and this change makes the feats fit much, much easier. The feat sequence could then run something like:

    1: Power Attack
    3: Dodge
    6: Improved Sunder
    9: Two-Weapon Pounce
    12: Mobility
    15: Spring Attack

    All feats gained in time for their relevant scenes, no unrealistic level requirements. The sequence I list here isn't definitive, especially in the early feats, but I thought it was generous to imagine that Belkar took Power Attack before he'd decided between TWF and Archery. The only additional pre-req to add would be giving Belkar a Dex of 15+, which is not at all unlikely for a halfling.

    Is this optimized? Heck no, Belkar remains a Ranger who can't cast spells from his innate Wisdom, and who took Power Attack, yet fights with daggers, but this is much closer to both RAW and our level estimations than what we have right now.

    TL DR: There are problems with Belkar's feat list. Dropping CDMI, changing Bounding Assault to Two-Weapon Pounce, and upping Belkar's Dex to 15+ resolves them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    Is this optimized? Heck no, Belkar remains a Ranger who can't cast spells from his innate Wisdom, and who took Power Attack, yet fights with daggers, but this is much closer to both RAW and our level estimations than what we have right now.
    Note that in 3.0 there was no choice between twf and archery, rangers got twf by default, and power attack WORKED with light weapons so it was golden for rangers who needed bonus damage to make their builds work.

    Like V, Belkar did not do well out of the edition change in strip 1.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Note that in 3.0 there was no choice between twf and archery, rangers got twf by default, and power attack WORKED with light weapons so it was golden for rangers who needed bonus damage to make their builds work.

    Like V, Belkar did not do well out of the edition change in strip 1.
    I did not know that! That makes my feat order even more plausible, then. Thoughts about making the changes I suggest?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    "Look, Monk training involves toughening the body with repeated blows. That includes toughening the head with repeated blows to the head. A little brain damage is unavoidable, and I'd thank you not to mock my medical condition."

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    TL DR: There are problems with Belkar's feat list. Dropping CDMI, changing Bounding Assault to Two-Weapon Pounce, and upping Belkar's Dex to 15+ resolves them.
    Sounds good to me. The opening post could use a little trimming of the fat in general. Too many things on there are clearly a joke, or extrapolated from tenuous evidence, or don't have an explanation at all.

    While we're on the subject of changing things, can we just strike this rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
    Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or their own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.
    It's flawed. It assumes that 1) characters have perfect knowledge about each other's builds and 2) everything they say about each other is accurate. It also means we have to include the obvious joke builds like Craft: Disturbing Mental Image.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp1050 View Post
    It's flawed. It assumes that 1) characters have perfect knowledge about each other's builds and 2) everything they say about each other is accurate. It also means we have to include the obvious joke builds like Craft: Disturbing Mental Image.
    It isn't an absolute rule (otherwise Oona would be a ranger - which frankly I think she should be), but on your two points.

    Character statements are often the only clear way that The Giant can communicate to us about what someone is - if we ignore it then things like Elan's charisma become in doubt.

    On Belkar he could be level 18 (he had made 8 attacks here panels 2,3 and 5 without responce - if we assume that panel 5 is his attack of opportunity then that is 7 attacks which he would have with 4 base and 3 two weapon fighting attacks) - which would allow him to keep all his feats and works nicely with him being able to treat an opponent 4 levels higher then Haley like a chump.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    On Belkar he could be level 18 (he had made 8 attacks here panels 2,3 and 5 without responce - if we assume that panel 5 is his attack of opportunity then that is 7 attacks which he would have with 4 base and 3 two weapon fighting attacks) - which would allow him to keep all his feats and works nicely with him being able to treat an opponent 4 levels higher then Haley like a chump.
    Belkar would gain his 4th attack (not including off-hand attacks) at level 16, not level 18, so I'm not quite sure what point you're making. For #616, I had assumed that panels 1 & 2 were in one round, and panel 3 was the start of a new round, with Belkar deliberately making fewer attacks than he could in panel 5 to avoid kill-stealing.

    However, the issue still remains that if he's 16+ in this fight, then how is he exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight for Durkon's Holy Word to deafen, but not blind him? I really don't think we can put Durkon at level 17 in the pyramid fight for the sake of upping Belkar's level.

    I know Belkar taunts Bozzok and Crystal here, but I also notice that he drops his +2 dagger to pick up Bozzok's shield, so he clearly valued the extra AC over extra attacks. I think he was belittling the Rogues for their 3/4 BAB (unlike "proper" martials), but his actions show that he actually considered them a threat, and altered his tactics accordingly.
    Last edited by MultitudeMan; 2022-04-23 at 01:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    "Look, Monk training involves toughening the body with repeated blows. That includes toughening the head with repeated blows to the head. A little brain damage is unavoidable, and I'd thank you not to mock my medical condition."

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    Belkar would gain his 4th attack (not including off-hand attacks) at level 16, not level 18, so I'm not quite sure what point you're making.
    The point is that if Belkar is a higher level then he is listed at then he could have the feats he currently has.

    For #616, I had assumed that panels 1 & 2 were in one round, and panel 3 was the start of a new round, with Belkar deliberately making fewer attacks than he could in panel 5 to avoid kill-stealing.
    You can assume whatever you want but there is no indication of a counter attack or a break in his dialogue.

    However, the issue still remains that if he's 16+ in this fight, then how is he exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight for Durkon's Holy Word to deafen, but not blind him? I really don't think we can put Durkon at level 17 in the pyramid fight for the sake of upping Belkar's level.
    There are many ways to increase caster level for spells.

    I know Belkar taunts Bozzok and Crystal here, but I also notice that he drops his +2 dagger to pick up Bozzok's shield, so he clearly valued the extra AC over extra attacks. I think he was belittling the Rogues for their 3/4 BAB (unlike "proper" martials), but his actions show that he actually considered them a threat, and altered his tactics accordingly.
    An equal level rogue with support from a lower level rogue (or anyone) is a threat - frankly with sneak attacks even lower level rogues are a threat, Belkar treated them as such but he knew how to mitigate that threat.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    The point is that if Belkar is a higher level then he is listed at then he could have the feats he currently has.

    You can assume whatever you want but there is no indication of a counter attack or a break in his dialogue.

    There are many ways to increase caster level for spells.

    An equal level rogue with support from a lower level rogue (or anyone) is a threat - frankly with sneak attacks even lower level rogues are a threat, Belkar treated them as such but he knew how to mitigate that threat.
    We have many other instances of characters attacking without break, if only Xykon's iconic Energy Drain spam in SoD.
    There indeed is many ways to improve caster level, but Durkon is never shown to use them, while V (for example) pretty clearly is. The point of this thread is to make the least amount of unbased assumption possible, and "Belkar is lv 18 and Durkon has items to boost his caster level by 3 and Nale and Zz'dtri are at level 18 too but Z never used a 9th level spell" is more assumption than just "The Giant took some artistic liberty in depicting those two combat rounds and Belkar is just that good". Honestly, the power levels are kinda all over the place. We have seen Roy solo basically the entire dominated Order (who were all higher level than he is), why wouldn't Belkar be able to beat two rogues?
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    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Did we ever figure out what mind control spell Xykon used in SOD to
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    implant the permanent suggestion that the MitD would eat Redcloak and spit out his amulet should he ever betray Xykon?


    I haven't found any sorcerer Compulsion spell with such a permanent effect, except Hypnotism. If the target was already friendly to Xykon (which it seemingly was), that would make it permanently fanatic in regards to that specific suggestion, which is probably how it will work. At the very least, we should put some variation of "mind-control spell permanent until discharged" in Xykon's spell list.

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    This would also make the MitD at most 12 RHD (maximum of an empowered Hypnotism), and more likely 8 RHD (Maximized Hypnotism). Now, this may be because the MitD is still a child ("it will grow in time"), and Xykon put an Hypnotism on it knowing that it would soon become much more powerful. Or it means that the MitD really has no more than 8 RHD, which I find doubtful.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Does anyone else think that Serini's interactions with the trolls are evidence of at least one rank in Diplomacy?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    "Look, Monk training involves toughening the body with repeated blows. That includes toughening the head with repeated blows to the head. A little brain damage is unavoidable, and I'd thank you not to mock my medical condition."

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Jun 2020

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    Does anyone else think that Serini's interactions with the trolls are evidence of at least one rank in Diplomacy?
    Most likely animal handling as well because of all the aberrations around doing what she asks… actually do they use animal handing?
    Native Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    I am unburdened of my salt, and I rise like a bland-ass potato chip from the ashes of my discontent.
    Rate my homebrew: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=323

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    Most likely animal handling as well because of all the aberrations around doing what she asks… actually do they use animal handing?
    I think the Handle animal is used only for domesticated animals. For everything else, you use Diplomacy or Wild empathy, which are basically the same skills, only bards call it Diplomacy while Rangers or Druids call it Wild empathy (#335 last panel). Then there's the third skill, Ride (#141 9th).

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