Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[Xihirli]

We're really making progress?
I don't see it listed here?
I struggle to imagine how that might be relevant?
I don't think we should take anything for granted?
We were hoping for something more useful?
We should never discuss any of it ever again?

I was thinking "No Skill Point," the title of the strip.

[Laurentio III]

4. We should never discuss any of it ever again

"Like the fortress of Xykon in the Astral Plane I heard about before."
"The what of who where how when!?"

[Smoutwortel]

Let me look out my window to check.

I can Spot some big trees obscuring most of my view, grass, paved paths from the sidewalk to the gate, a trashcan, streetlights, three parked cars, the tobbaco store, and clouds on the night sky. No sun, checks out. I'll try again when I grow old, in case the extra point of wisdom helps.

What else would it be? Craft? Profession? Speak language? It feels like Perform to me when I do it.

Craft or speak language.
Craft, because the more advanced versions of writing tend to be crafts.
Speak language, because your typing skills are keyboard dependend.

[MultitudeMan]

I feel like the Giant was specifically trying to wind up the contributors to this thread in the first panel of the latest strip (this one, for the benefit of the people of the future).

[137beth]

Well, typing it on a forum isn't literally saying it out loud, so we got around O-Chul!

[danielxcutter]

I mean, hasn't the Giant been poking fun at us for at least a book or two?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean, hasn't the Giant been poking fun at us for at least a book or two?

Quick kids: Figure out which monster has Skill Focus (Self-Awareness) as a bonus feat!

[b_jonas]

3.5 doesn't have a knowledge astronomy.

Normally I'd think astronomy is under Knowledge (nature), since the rules say that covers “seasons and cycles”. However, #1099 1st panel makes me unsure, maybe in the OoTS world it's Knowledge (religion) that covers astronomy.

[danielxcutter]

Or that one might be a Cloistered Cleric.

[InvisibleBison]

This may be semi joking but 1268 gives a few skills to some characters

No, it doesn't. The various capabilities the characters list are things that aren't represented by their skills or feats, since Roy asked about them after the group assembled "a complete record of all [their] skills, feats, spells known and magic items possessed". If, eg, Durkon had ranks in Craft (basketweaving), they would have included that in the record and he wouldn't have felt a need to mention it when they were listing things they hadn't already recorded.

[Laurentio III]

No, it doesn't. The various capabilities the characters list are things that aren't represented by their skills or feats, since Roy asked about them after the group assembled "a complete record of all [their] skills, feats, spells known and magic items possessed". If, eg, Durkon had ranks in Craft (basketweaving), they would have included that in the record and he wouldn't have felt a need to mention it when they were listing things they hadn't already recorded.

I agree.
"I took a course", "You studied it six years" or "I know crochet" means not much. Making smoke rings is not even a skill.
Belkar claiming to being a soapmaker? Well, it depends on the end result. Every character can make a pointy stick, but "Fletcher" is a profession.
As granpa Greenhilt says, "It don't mean a thing if you ain't paid for that swing". The title of the page is "No Skill Point", so until proved the opposite, it's just flavour talking.

"I'm an experienced beekeeper", on the other hand, is probably a skill. Apparently warriors takes Animal Husbandry very seriously.

[Doug Lampert]

No, it doesn't. The various capabilities the characters list are things that aren't represented by their skills or feats, since Roy asked about them after the group assembled "a complete record of all [their] skills, feats, spells known and magic items possessed". If, eg, Durkon had ranks in Craft (basketweaving), they would have included that in the record and he wouldn't have felt a need to mention it when they were listing things they hadn't already recorded.

I'm inclined to agree, they've got their character sheets in front of them, this is a self-aware stick figure parody with the rulebooks available as in-game items and knowing that there are PCs and NPCs and people able to find prestige classes in old third-party source books they find in the discount bin.

Those are their character sheets. The stuff they're discussing now is their backstories. Anything they get from those is just a circumstance bonus.

[Reboot]

Normally I'd think astronomy is under Knowledge (nature), since the rules say that covers “seasons and cycles”. However, #1099 1st panel makes me unsure, maybe in the OoTS world it's Knowledge (religion) that covers astronomy.

Nah, it's probably a specialism available to clerics of Thor or something, like firestarting could be for clerics of Loki, but that doesn't make it an actual (religion)-tagged thing. Astrology/horoscopes, as she offers to do, OTOH...

[Hecuba]

Looks like today's comic provides the next thread title, too

I find much of this surprising and informative.
Profession: Beekeeper
Knowledge Astronomy does not exist

[b_jonas]

Nah, it's probably a specialism available to clerics of Thor or something,

I think it's not specific to Thor. It's the Animal domain, available to any cleric, which makes it easier for them to learn Knowledge (nature). I know it sounds stupid at first, but consider it for a moment.

Tinna uses Astronomy to make horoscopes, which are based on the twelve signs of the zodiac. We know that the twelve signs of the zodiac is used for astrology at least on the southern continent, so I expect it's used in the North too, only perhaps they're using a third kind of zodiac (OotS south uses the real world Chinese zodiac, OotS west the western zodiac). Most of the twelve signs of the zodiac are animals and vermin, in both Chinese and western astrology. Of the Chinese zodiac, all but Dragon are based on animals. Of the western zodiac, Aires, Taurus, Leo, Capricornus, Pisces are based on animals, Cancer and Scorpio on vermin, making at least seven of the twelve signs. So Knowledge (nature) and a domain named Animals sounds to me like the most relevant Knowledge skills for making zodiacs. That's in addition to the description of the skill straight up mentioning “seasons and cycles”.

[danielxcutter]

Domains are usually only for clerics who worship a god with them(or an ideal relevant to them, for non-deity worshipers). Thor would likely not be able to grant the Animal domain.

[b_jonas]

Thor would likely not be able to grant the Animal domain.

I don't see why not. Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals. And look at #1232 for how he explains why the goblins got the weaker end of the creation. “we were making an ecosystem. Things consume other things and get stronger, that's how it works. Plants absorb sunlight, animals eat plants, people eat animals, other people defeat them and gain levels. Then the worms eat everyone.”

[InvisibleBison]

I don't see why not. Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals. [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html]And look at #1232 for how he explains why the goblins got the weaker end of the creation. “we were making an ecosystem. Things consume other things and get stronger, that's how it works. Plants absorb sunlight, animals eat plants, people eat animals, other people defeat them and gain levels. Then the worms eat everyone.”

There's a big difference between a god thinking animals are worthwhile and a god being a god of animals. Thor is clearly the former, while the latter is what you'd expect from a god that grants the Animal domain.

[Peelee]

I don't see why not. Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals.

Granting the animal domain because "he doesn't hate animals" is probably the weakest argument I've ever seen. Or at the very least in the top 3.

[b_jonas]

Granting the animal domain because "he doesn't hate animals" is probably the weakest argument I've ever seen.

No, that's not the argument. #1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment. So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics. I argue that the Animal domain should be what Thor gives to help this. Danielxcutter countered that that's impossible because Thor doesn't grant the Animal domain, but I don't see why he thinks that.

[Laurentio III]

Based on manuals, Thor Domains are chaos, good, protection, strength, war, and weather.

[Peelee]

No, that's not the argument. #1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment. So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics. I argue that the Animal domain should be what Thor gives to help this. Danielxcutter countered that that's impossible because Thor doesn't grant the Animal domain, but I don't see why he thinks that.

First, it does not say that's the only Dwarven organization that pays for looking at the sky. Second, it's hardly surprising that the northern god of weather would have clergy who would be interested in the sky.

I would imagine there's no reason to think Thor grants the animal domain becuase nothing indicates that, except that he doesn't hate animals (and other claims that I think have similar validity).

[Tzardok]

I think it's not specific to Thor. It's the Animal domain, available to any cleric, which makes it easier for them to learn Knowledge (nature). I know it sounds stupid at first, but consider it for a moment.

Tinna uses Astronomy to make horoscopes, which are based on the twelve signs of the zodiac. We know that the twelve signs of the zodiac is used for astrology at least on the southern continent, so I expect it's used in the North too, only perhaps they're using a third kind of zodiac (OotS south uses the real world Chinese zodiac, OotS west the western zodiac). Most of the twelve signs of the zodiac are animals and vermin, in both Chinese and western astrology. Of the Chinese zodiac, all but Dragon are based on animals. Of the western zodiac, Aires, Taurus, Leo, Capricornus, Pisces are based on animals, Cancer and Scorpio on vermin, making at least seven of the twelve signs. So Knowledge (nature) and a domain named Animals sounds to me like the most relevant Knowledge skills for making zodiacs. That's in addition to the description of the skill straight up mentioning “seasons and cycles”.

I think I remember something about a Norse zodiac whose signs are trees. Unlikely for dwarves, but possible.

[dancrilis]

Thor married Freya who constantly has bluebirds singing around her, so I don't think he hates animals. [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html]

I am dubious as to if Thor and Freya are married.

#1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment. So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics. I argue that the Animal domain should be what Thor gives to help this.

So your arguement is that church of Thor is into astrology and therefore Thor may have the Animal domain - perhaps there is some connection between animals and astrology that I am missing but outside of providing the Knowledge (Nature) skill I am not seeing any (if is we are looking at the domains the Knowledge domain seems a better fit for stuff that might normally be considered astrology stuff).

I think I remember something about a Norse zodiac whose signs are trees. Unlikely for dwarves, but possible.

The Plant domain also gives Knowledge (Nature) so probably as much justification for Thor granting it as the Animal domain.

[Metastachydium]

The Plant domain also gives Knowledge (Nature) so probably as much justification for Thor granting it as the Animal domain.

Thor doesn't actually hate trees, therefore I hereby posit that he has the Plant domain rather than the Animal domain and this is a fact!

[Ortho]

Regarding V's prior experience with astronomy, that might just be poking fun at 5e's backgrounds.

Or at least that's how it read to me, as I play a lot of 5e and V's comment sounded very familiar.

[danielxcutter]

Also, unlike more "generic" domains like alignment-based ones, the Animal domain usually happens to be granted by gods whose portfolio is explicitly centered around animals or nature or something. And before you try to nitpick that, I mean in the "obvious druid-esque nature deity" sense for the latter.

I'd put decent money on it being in Fenrir's options, but I think there's also a Bestial domain or something...?

[Laurentio III]

Thor doesn't actually hate trees, therefore I hereby posit that he has the Plant domain rather than the Animal domain and this is a fact!

It doesn't means that Thor can't hate you, specifically. Beware the lighting.

[Metastachydium]

It doesn't means that Thor can't hate you, specifically. Beware the lighting.

[Saddens.]

Also, unlike more "generic" domains like alignment-based ones, the Animal domain usually happens to be granted by gods whose portfolio is explicitly centered around animals or nature or something. And before you try to nitpick that, I mean in the "obvious druid-esque nature deity" sense for the latter.

I'd put decent money on it being in Fenrir's options, but I think there's also a Bestial domain or something...?

Skadi is an even safer bet and Sif might have it (or Plant (or both)) too.

[danielxcutter]

Skadi is an even safer bet and Sif might have it (or Plant (or both)) too.

Yeah but those are the obvious ones. Fenrir is a marginally less obvious one that still illustrates my point.