Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[Jasdoif]

No, that's not the argument. #1099 first panel says that the church of Thor pays Tinna the cleric for working in astrology, and that's the only dwarven organization where Tinna could find such employment. So it's reasonable that Thor helps this in some way reflected in the game mechanics.

First, it does not say that's the only Dwarven organization that pays for looking at the sky.

Even if it did...why couldn't that mean she provides a bonus the church of Thor wants but has difficulty coming up with itself? Something as simple as starting as an Expert with the appropriate choice of class skills, and devotion to spending skill points cross-class with her subsequent cleric levels, would suffice.

Beware the lighting.

Is it ultraviolet or something?

[Psyren]

I'd like to propose that Belkar has at least some ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) given his savvy at using Serini's monsters to troll Durkon. No idea how many though.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'd like to propose that Belkar has at least some ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) given his savvy at using Serini's monsters to troll Durkon. No idea how many though.

Remembering a bit of information about a mimic is a DC 17. Belkar might have just rolled well, and only requires a single skill point (or half a rank) to make the check in the first place.

[Metastachydium]

[*]Races of the Dragon (winged kobold)

Kilkil
Lawful Neutral (forum), Winged Kobold male, level 6-10 (paralyzed by Holy Word).
Str ~6 (no evidence, racial).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial).
Con ~8 (no evidence, racial).
Items: Glasses.
Skills: Speak Language: Draconic (racial).
Abilities: Kobold racial abilities, Flight.

Okay, so I've just noticed this. Apparently, the thread assumes that Kilkil has Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings from RotD. However, he demonstartes the capability of prolonged flight repeatedly which is only possible if 1.) he has the single highest CON score in the whole Stickverse or 2.) he has 12 HD or more. Given the effect of the Holy Word on him, on the other hand, he can't have more than 10 and therefore, by RAW, this explanation is highly improbable at best.

How do we know he doesn't have the Winged template^SS instead?

Celia
Lawful Good (DSTP), Sylph female, 6+ HD (required to cast Lightning Bolt).
Str 14+ (required to pick up Roy).

Here's another flight-related issue. It might just be that I wasn't here yet when this was figured out, but how exactly would STR 14 explain Celia carrying Roy? For a Medium creature with this score, a light load is 58 lb. or less and a flying creature can only carry a light load while using its flight speed. She could have Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings^RotD and pull it off if a fully clothed Roy weighs less than 175 lb., but taking the latter feat requires a STR score of 15.

[Ephemera]

Here's another flight-related issue. It might just be that I wasn't here yet when this was figured out, but how exactly would STR 14 explain Celia carrying Roy? For a Medium creature with this score, a light load is 58 lb. or less and a flying creature can only carry a light load while using its flight speed. She could have Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings^RotD and pull it off if a fully clothed Roy weighs less than 175 lb., but taking the latter feat requires a STR score of 15.

As I recall, there was a certain amount of hand-waving involved...or, rather, the general consensus was that it was more palatable to hand-wave one rule than conclude that Rich is just ignoring the rules for encumbrance fro flying creatures.

That is to say that there's maybe a bit of wiggle room in the RAW about whether a flying creature can lift more than a light load into the air, and I think it was decided that STR 14 would let Roy be a heavy load for her (insert dirty joke here).

It's probably cleaner in many ways to just say that OotS has a house rule about flying creatures and what they can carry (and I suspect you could assemble a consensus who agrees that's more likely insofar as any explanation is "true"), but the thread rules generally try to break as few RAW explanations as possible, and if she's weaker than that, she shouldn't be able to lift Roy at all. Although I guess you can lift twice a heavy load off the ground (not flying) and stagger around, so you might be right that there's no particular reason to justify pegging Roy as a heavy load for her when there's one rule that says he should be a light load and another that suggests he could be 2x a heavy load...

[Wintermoot]

As I recall, there was a certain amount of hand-waving involved...or, rather, the general consensus was that it was more palatable to hand-wave one rule than conclude that Rich is just ignoring the rules for encumbrance fro flying creatures.

That is to say that there's maybe a bit of wiggle room in the RAW about whether a flying creature can lift more than a light load into the air, and I think it was decided that STR 14 would let Roy be a heavy load for her (insert dirty joke here).

It's probably cleaner in many ways to just say that OotS has a house rule about flying creatures and what they can carry (and I suspect you could assemble a consensus who agrees that's more likely insofar as any explanation is "true"), but the thread rules generally try to break as few RAW explanations as possible, and if she's weaker than that, she shouldn't be able to lift Roy at all. Although I guess you can lift twice a heavy load off the ground (not flying) and stagger around, so you might be right that there's no particular reason to justify pegging Roy as a heavy load for her when there's one rule that says he should be a light load and another that suggests he could be 2x a heavy load...

Indeed.

The 14+ str is required to -PICK UP- Roy, not fly with Roy. Celia needed to pick him up, and we can measure that: (14+ str). The fact that that doesn't answer the question about how she flew with him is irrelevant for this point. We can set a lower boundary for her strength based on her picking up this lug of a fighter within the rules. We can separate the rest of it into a further unrelated unanswered side question.

[Beni-Kujaku]

How do we know he doesn't have the Winged template^SS instead?

I don't think we've assumed anything. It could be a dragonborn kobold, for example. Better to just write "Flight".

How exactly would STR 14 explain Celia carrying Roy?

It's a bit unclear what the rules are on flying while carrying people. It probably depends on extraordinary or supernatural flight, and your speed is arguably just reduced the way land speed is. "Maximum is heavy load" seemed more logical than "Celia has 22 Str".

[Yanisa]

It's a bit unclear what the rules are on flying while carrying people. It probably depends on extraordinary or supernatural flight, and your speed is arguably just reduced the way land speed is. "Maximum is heavy load" seemed more logical than "Celia has 22 Str".

I am unsure what rules you find unclear?

Basic rules state:

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load

Link
And just in case, hover is a part of the default flying maneuvers.

So we have very clear rules for the baseline, light load, no more. Doesn't matter if you carry people or loot.
There are of course magical exceptions, but that's magic for you.


I am unsure of how we ended up the strength scores as we did. This whole carry people while flying is an ancient topic, and often contested because it's high strength implications. I was looking trough the archives but haven't found the exact calculations yet.

She could have Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings^RotD.

Celia having feats from Races of Dragon seems rather unlikely because of the real world time line, although not impossible.

RoD came out in January 17, 2006
#315 came out on 16 May 2006.

And the first instance of improbable carrying while flying was Sabine, all the back in #57, 18 April 2004.


Similarly, "Winged Kobold" isn't a creature in Races of Dragon. So either it's a "Dragonwought Kobold" or a the template "Winged" Kobold. With the wrong source.
I don't got the time to delve deeper in the old archives to figure out how we got here, and I don't wanna repeat ancient discussions, so I might chime in later with something more indepth.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I am unsure what rules you find unclear?

"at the indicated speed". Any creature in armor or carrying a medium load has its speed reduced‚ even while flying. Although it's not exactly a heavy load‚ we have examples of creatures explicitly flying in heavy armor‚ like the Justicator from MM3. Although heavy load and heavy armor are not quite identical‚ they are so close in effect that they might as well be interchangeable.

[Metastachydium]

As I recall, there was a certain amount of hand-waving involved...or, rather, the general consensus was that it was more palatable to hand-wave one rule than conclude that Rich is just ignoring the rules for encumbrance fro flying creatures.

That is to say that there's maybe a bit of wiggle room in the RAW about whether a flying creature can lift more than a light load into the air, and I think it was decided that STR 14 would let Roy be a heavy load for her (insert dirty joke here).

It's probably cleaner in many ways to just say that OotS has a house rule about flying creatures and what they can carry (and I suspect you could assemble a consensus who agrees that's more likely insofar as any explanation is "true"), but the thread rules generally try to break as few RAW explanations as possible, and if she's weaker than that, she shouldn't be able to lift Roy at all. Although I guess you can lift twice a heavy load off the ground (not flying) and stagger around, so you might be right that there's no particular reason to justify pegging Roy as a heavy load for her when there's one rule that says he should be a light load and another that suggests he could be 2x a heavy load...

Indeed.

The 14+ str is required to -PICK UP- Roy, not fly with Roy. Celia needed to pick him up, and we can measure that: (14+ str). The fact that that doesn't answer the question about how she flew with him is irrelevant for this point. We can set a lower boundary for her strength based on her picking up this lug of a fighter within the rules. We can separate the rest of it into a further unrelated unanswered side question.

And the first instance of improbable carrying while flying was Sabine, all the back in #57, 18 April 2004.

(…)

I don't got the time to delve deeper in the old archives to figure out how we got here, and I don't wanna repeat ancient discussions, so I might chime in later with something more indepth.

Fair enough.

I don't think we've assumed anything. It could be a dragonborn kobold, for example. Better to just write "Flight".

Races of the Dragon is cited as a source, and Dragonborn (even if we ignore the fluff) is just as poor a fit as Dragonwrought with feats; Kilkil would require the same 12 HD he certifiably doesn't have for continuous flight as shown.

Similarly, "Winged Kobold" isn't a creature in Races of Dragon. So either it's a "Dragonwought Kobold" or a the template "Winged" Kobold. With the wrong source.

…and for the reason stated above, I suspect the latter if we are to go by RAW.

[Riftwolf]

I don't think we've assumed anything. It could be a dragonborn kobold, for example. Better to just write "Flight".



It's a bit unclear what the rules are on flying while carrying people. It probably depends on extraordinary or supernatural flight, and your speed is arguably just reduced the way land speed is. "Maximum is heavy load" seemed more logical than "Celia has 22 Str".

The rules in Oots for carrying people while flying have never been observed, from memory. Sabine carries both Nale and Thog from Azure City, for example. I thought there was a link in the thread header post about how strength and carrying capacity couldn't be discerned using flight rules. A personal theory I just came up with is an Outsider-only Sor/Wiz spell that triples carrying capacity while flying called "Flying Ant Haul" that the Outer Planes sells as wands free with every box of Outsider-O's.

[Metastachydium]

The rules in Oots for carrying people while flying have never been observed, from memory. Sabine carries both Nale and Thog from Azure City, for example. I thought there was a link in the thread header post about how strength and carrying capacity couldn't be discerned using flight rules. A personal theory I just came up with is an Outsider-only Sor/Wiz spell that triples carrying capacity while flying called "Flying Ant Haul" that the Outer Planes sells as wands free with every box of Outsider-O's.

A lesser, non-exclusive version of that already exists (this is 3.5, we have stuff covered!); it's called Enduring Flight^RotW (Sky 3, Sor/Wiz 4, so available for wands) and allows flying with medium encumbrance as if it were light. If that stacks with Easy Travel armour^MIC, Sabine can be explained away with ease, if only retroactively.

[Yanisa]

"at the indicated speed". Any creature in armor or carrying a medium load has its speed reduced‚ even while flying. Although it's not exactly a heavy load‚ we have examples of creatures explicitly flying in heavy armor‚ like the Justicator from MM3. Although heavy load and heavy armor are not quite identical‚ they are so close in effect that they might as well be interchangeable.

The rules also cover that; Emphasis mine:

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

Linky

There is also a (to me) weird interaction between the rules, because the game assumes armor to be worse than load.

A character’s armor defines his or her maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, armor check penalty, speed, and running speed. Unless your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, that’s all you need to know. The extra gear your character carries won’t slow him or her down any more than the armor already does.

Linky

So, going off the deep end. If Celia is wearing heavy armor, and gains penalties bases on armor, she could carry Roy while ignored the encumbrance rules, as stated by the encumbrance rules!

Yes, I saw the "If your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, however, then you’ll need to calculate encumbrance by weight. Doing so is most important when your character is trying to carry some heavy object."-clause, let me keep my fun.


But in the case of strength scores.

Sabine is based on this post. Ignoring the whole "fly encumbrance" because it can be side stepped with spells. Still even with magic, we need that 19+ strength for a heavy load. And in the case of Sabine a high strength makes sense, because she does a lot of tossing people around.

Which is turn should be the same logic for Celia. We cannot prove she isn't using a fly spell to bypass the "fly encumbrance". Roy at least weighs 122 lbs (minimal for human) but because of the festival isn't wearing his armor or presumable other gear. Which brings us to a minimal of 14 strength. A bit high, but not insanely unreasonable.
Maybe someone else did came to that same conclusion, but I didn't find it.
Also we have room up to 175 lbs, so Roy doesn't has to be underweight.


In conclusion, because it is possible to use magic to fly with a heavy load, the minimal strength we can gather for Celia is 14.




Edit to avoid double posting.

I also delved into our Kilkil friend.
The first time he was listed, he was already a "winged Kobold". However Races of the Dragons was not discussed as the only source. Winged template, Dragon Disciple and magic items also were named.

Because of Holy Word we know Kilkil's level range, and his maximum level prevents Dragonwought Kobold and Dragon Discipline, but that still leaves us with at least two options. Winged Template and Wings of Flying. So we cannot prove a single way of his wings.
My suggestion is to list Kilkil as a kobold, with "wings" and "flight" as abilities.

Races of the Dragon got added years later, and by then there was no discussion of other ways to fly because the discussion followed Girards dragon blood instead.
I also would like to point out I am am not trying to call anyone out for not knowing all sources, I am just figuring out how we got here to prevent double discussion.

Also, we should remove "Races of the Dragon" as a source book until we got a different way to prove something using only that source book.

[Metastachydium]

I also delved into our Kilkil friend.

You're wonderful, thank you for looking into this.

My suggestion is to list Kilkil as a kobold, with "wings" and "flight" as abilities.

(…)

Also, we should remove "Races of the Dragon" as a source book until we got a different way to prove something using only that source book.

Aye. I'm throwing my support behind both motions.

[Ephemera]

I'm still not sure I buy the "Celia needs to be able to pick up Roy therefore he's a heavy load" argument. By my reading of the encumbrance rules, you can pick someone up and move at half-speed if they are twice your heavy load, and we definitely don't see her lift him into the air on her feet (in fact, I'd say the implication is that she holds him with her arms and then lifts off with her wings).

I can sort of see an argument for why she'd need to be able to lift him from a real-world perspective, but obviously flying with wings that size is magic from a real-world-physics point of view so that doesn't mean anything.

So to me, unless we are saying that Celia has a string of feats/wands/spells that let her fly with a heavy load (which, under thread rules, isn't a crazy thing to postulate) I don't see a particular case for either "Roy is somehow a light load" or "Celia is lifting him under the 2x heavy load rules and in OoTS, that means she can fly slowly" (vs. of course, "OoTS doesn't observe encumbrance rules for flying" which is probably my headcanon, and still points--to me at least--towards "Roy is a 2x heavy load for her.).

In either case, I don't really see a clear justification for a 14+ strength unless we are asserting a combination of things (houserule or magic from dodgy splatbooks, most likely) that lets her fly normally with a heavy load.

[Yanisa]

I'm still not sure I buy the "Celia needs to be able to pick up Roy therefore he's a heavy load" argument. By my reading of the encumbrance rules, you can pick someone up and move at half-speed if they are twice your heavy load, and we definitely don't see her lift him into the air on her feet (in fact, I'd say the implication is that she holds him with her arms and then lifts off with her wings).

While the rules of flying don't mention Lifting and Dragging I do feel we need to apply some "D&D-rule based common sense". Normally flying has a limit of Light Load, which has a weight range. Lifting and Dragging start at weights above the Light Load weight range. So Light Load is the limiting factor for carrying while flying and you can't fly while Lifting or Dragging.

Similarly, Medium and Heavy Load have weight ranges that are lower than what a character can lift or drag. Which is also why Lifting and Dragging have heavier movement penalties than Medium and Heavy Load.

However;

So to me, unless we are saying that Celia has a string of feats/wands/spells that let her fly with a heavy load (which, under thread rules, isn't a crazy thing to postulate) I don't see a particular case for either "Roy is somehow a light load" or "Celia is lifting him under the 2x heavy load rules and in OoTS, that means she can fly slowly" (vs. of course, "OoTS doesn't observe encumbrance rules for flying" which is probably my headcanon, and still points--to me at least--towards "Roy is a 2x heavy load for her.).

In either case, I don't really see a clear justification for a 14+ strength unless we are asserting a combination of things (houserule or magic from dodgy splatbooks, most likely) that lets her fly normally with a heavy load.

We don't need extreme scenario's, the Overland Flight has an exception of the fly rule that allows heavy load flying, we known V has that spell. We don't see Celia carrying people all the time [citation needed]. So she could easily prepared this for a special night, rather than this is something she can do every day, every time.

What I am trying to show, with help from those before me, is the minimum strength required for Celia to carry Roy. Because you can fly with a heavy load (regardless of the source), we can set a minimum of strength required to carry the lightest version of Roy. Hence the 14+ strength.
Roy might be heavier, carrying more than I assume or Celia isn't using magic. Then Celia needs a even higher strength, but in general people find that more unreasonable.

I say it's impossible to explain Celia's ability to fly while carrying Roy with 13 or less strength within the D&D rules.

P.S.

"OoTS doesn't observe encumbrance rules for flying"

I do agree that seems more likely, but this thread is to prove things within the D&D rules. Not to prove which rules are being used and which ones are not.

[danielxcutter]

Well she can cast Alter Self at least.

[hamishspence]

By my reading of the encumbrance rules, you can pick someone up and move at half-speed if they are twice your heavy load

The rules are pretty clear that if you lift more than your heavy load but less than twice your heavy load, you're limited to 5 ft speed.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingC...ingandDragging


Lifting and Dragging
A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head.

A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

[Metastachydium]

We don't need extreme scenario's, the Overland Flight has an exception of the fly rule that allows heavy load flying, we known V has that spell. We don't see Celia carrying people all the time [citation needed]. So she could easily prepared this for a special night, rather than this is something she can do every day, every time.

Interesting fact: 3rd level Fly has the same text and Celia is a sylph. Assuming she's the 3 HD baseline version, she casts as a 7th level sorcerer. She has demonstrated her ability to use 3rd level spells, but as far as I can tell, we have only ever seen her cast Lightning Bolt – which leaves a slot open for another 3rd level spell known. Now, Fly is a weird pick for a creature with 90' (good) innate flight, but she doesn't need anything we don't know of to be able to fly with a heavy load for more than half an hour a day.

[danielxcutter]

Bull's Strength?

[Ephemera]

While the rules of flying don't mention Lifting and Dragging I do feel we need to apply some "D&D-rule based common sense". Normally flying has a limit of Light Load, which has a weight range. Lifting and Dragging start at weights above the Light Load weight range. So Light Load is the limiting factor for carrying while flying and you can't fly while Lifting or Dragging.

Similarly, Medium and Heavy Load have weight ranges that are lower than what a character can lift or drag. Which is also why Lifting and Dragging have heavier movement penalties than Medium and Heavy Load.

However;


We don't need extreme scenario's, the Overland Flight has an exception of the fly rule that allows heavy load flying, we known V has that spell. We don't see Celia carrying people all the time [citation needed]. So she could easily prepared this for a special night, rather than this is something she can do every day, every time.

What I am trying to show, with help from those before me, is the minimum strength required for Celia to carry Roy. Because you can fly with a heavy load (regardless of the source), we can set a minimum of strength required to carry the lightest version of Roy. Hence the 14+ strength.
Roy might be heavier, carrying more than I assume or Celia isn't using magic. Then Celia needs a even higher strength, but in general people find that more unreasonable.

I say it's impossible to explain Celia's ability to fly while carrying Roy with 13 or less strength within the D&D rules.

P.S.

I do agree that seems more likely, but this thread is to prove things within the D&D rules. Not to prove which rules are being used and which ones are not.

I agree with the last part. My issue is that your breakdown still has two scenarios: either we are in the land of regular flying and Roy is somehow a light load (so Celia needs much higher strength), or else Celia isn't using her native flight ability and has done some off-panel casting, in which case it could be both Fly and also Bull's strength, or she borrowed a strength enhancing item, or cast something that reduced Roy's weight (or if she has fly, she just cast it on him and is holding him).

The point is, I'm not sure what Occam's Razor-satisfying scenario requires exactly Str 14?

[b_jonas]

I'm not sure if Bull's Strength actually helps. The spell description is ambiguous, it kind of sounds like it doesn't actually raise your strength, instead the higher strength only counts for rules that care about the strength modifier, which the carrying capacity rule doesn't.

[hamishspence]

"Enhancement bonus to Strength" means Str score is higher, until the spell wears off.



The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier.



"What you can lift off the ground" is dependant on your strength score, whatever it is - modified or otherwise.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm

A barbarian's rage grants them an untyped bonus to Str:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm

representing a massive release of adrenaline from "working themselves into a rage" Would be a bit silly if a raging barbarian couldn't lift any more than a non-raging barbarian.

[Yanisa]

I agree with the last part. My issue is that your breakdown still has two scenarios: either we are in the land of regular flying and Roy is somehow a light load (so Celia needs much higher strength), or else Celia isn't using her native flight ability and has done some off-panel casting, in which case it could be both Fly and also Bull's strength, or she borrowed a strength enhancing item, or cast something that reduced Roy's weight (or if she has fly, she just cast it on him and is holding him).

The point is, I'm not sure what Occam's Razor-satisfying scenario requires exactly Str 14?

It's a good point, but I am not going for the easiest explanation. I am going for the minimum amount of strength needed. That strength can even be enhanced, with more magic or magic items, making this even more convoluted.
My point is, you can fly with a heavy load, so Celia needs at least the strength to carry said heavy load. Which is 14+ strength.

Also in the past people did not accept the premise that Celia carries Roy without any enhancements. No magic would put her at 20+ strength, based on Roy weighing 122 lbs (minimum for human) and having no other gear.

[Ephemera]

It's a good point, but I am not going for the easiest explanation. I am going for the minimum amount of strength needed. That strength can even be enhanced, with more magic or magic items, making this even more convoluted.
My point is, you can fly with a heavy load, so Celia needs at least the strength to carry said heavy load. Which is 14+ strength.

Also in the past people did not accept the premise that Celia carries Roy without any enhancements. No magic would put her at 20+ strength, based on Roy weighing 122 lbs (minimum for human) and having no other gear.

I don't feel all that strongly about this, so I'm not sure why I'm belaboring this. But I'm not certain that we should be just basing this on determining minimum strength. Obviously that is the goal, but if minimum strength requires such a convoluted explanation to even work, then I don't know that it makes sense to list it.

For 14 strength to even work as an explanation, it seems as though we have to assume off-panel casting or magic items, and while it's possible that Celia has Fly as a spell, that's such a radically weird thing for her to take that I think it would require some further evidence (plus, if she has Fly, she can cast it on Roy, too, and not need to have 14 strength at all). If there's off-panel casting of Fly, then why not also off-panel casting of Bull's Strength (and then she only needs 10 strength), or Roy weighing 150 lbs and Strength 13 (or 9 and Bull's Strength).

I'm not sure any of this is a better fit (by thread rules) than a house rule of some sort (and once it's house rule, it could be either no carrying capacity rules at all for flying, or it could be that you can "lift and drag" while flying with a 5' move speed, either of which would match the on-panel evidence just fine). Am I missing a simple way that she can carry a heavy load while flying that would justify strength 14?

[Yanisa]

I don't feel all that strongly about this, so I'm not sure why I'm belaboring this. But I'm not certain that we should be just basing this on determining minimum strength. Obviously that is the goal, but if minimum strength requires such a convoluted explanation to even work, then I don't know that it makes sense to list it.

For 14 strength to even work as an explanation, it seems as though we have to assume off-panel casting or magic items, and while it's possible that Celia has Fly as a spell, that's such a radically weird thing for her to take that I think it would require some further evidence (plus, if she has Fly, she can cast it on Roy, too, and not need to have 14 strength at all). If there's off-panel casting of Fly, then why not also off-panel casting of Bull's Strength (and then she only needs 10 strength), or Roy weighing 150 lbs and Strength 13 (or 9 and Bull's Strength).

I'm not sure any of this is a better fit (by thread rules) than a house rule of some sort (and once it's house rule, it could be either no carrying capacity rules at all for flying, or it could be that you can "lift and drag" while flying with a 5' move speed, either of which would match the on-panel evidence just fine). Am I missing a simple way that she can carry a heavy load while flying that would justify strength 14?

Honestly, I am glad with the discourse. Gives me the motivation to dig a bit deeper in all of this and catch my own mistakes as well. Here are a couple of small points:

In general bonuses to attributes aren't considered, just the end number. Roy is listed strength is 29.

The flight scene depicts Roy being surprised and has no casting. Off-panel casting between two established panels that literally depict seconds is also a messy assumption, messier than off-panel casting before the scene. (That's why I prefer overland flight instead of fly, because it can be casted hours before the date.)
(Also no stagger for lifting off ground, but that can be subjective.)

Your mention of "Roy weighing 150 lbs and Strength 13" confused me to the point I realized I was reading the table wrong. Which is turn leads to lower a minimum. (Still no idea what you meant).

The lowest strength with a heavy load range that includes 122 lb. is 12 strength with 87-130 lb.
20 strength for light load is still accurate.

And here is a fun fact. The small sylph (MMII) has 8 strength. Increasing a creature from small to medium adds 4 strength.
Celia should have 12 strength from racial + size.

[MultitudeMan]

In light of #1271, should we add a Wand of Prestidigitation to Serini's entry, or could a "cleaning wand" be another spell? I don't think Purify Food and Drink would work on potion remnants.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not sure if there are cleaning spells besides Prestidigitation, frankly.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm not sure if there are cleaning spells besides Prestidigitation, frankly.

Well now, I'm sure that if you try reverse casting Grease that'll buff that gravy stain right off!

[Tzardok]

Unseen Servant can be commanded to clean.