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2021-11-19, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
They are not.
Everything written in the DMG is largely treated with the same level of authority as Sage Advice. If a DM feels fit to use it, they do so, if they do not, they don't. My experience tends to be the DMG is treated as optional guidance, and not necessary to play the game.
Skills locked to stats should simply be officially eliminated. Not a "ruling", not "advice", not "optional content", it should become the new norm. There's no need for it, as it needlessly restricts gameplay based on very tenuous ideas of what any given skill or stat actually represents.Last edited by False God; 2021-11-19 at 02:55 PM.
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2021-11-19, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
If you say so. Having had plenty of occasions in various groups to decouple the skill from the ability attached to it, I beg to differ, but I am not here to convince you.
Your experience and mine tend to differ consistently. I am not saying that either is better, just that this is a rather personal approach to how to conduct a game. The DMs I had in the past stuck to the rules, rather than seeing them as a mere guidance, and likewise I did when I DM'd. If your style is seeing them just as a suggestion, more power to you but don't assume that everybody does it.
Why do you even care, at this point? If rules are just advice, that should not really make any difference for you. And again, you might want to reconsider your preconceptions on the game: the mere fact that we are having this conversation is an indication that stuff like this is open to debate, rather than being subject to an absolute and monolithical judgement.Last edited by Cicciograna; 2021-11-19 at 03:10 PM.
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2021-11-19, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
What we do here online isn't anything like what's going on at tables.
My experience is that most DMs and most tables stick to the ability scores noted next to the skills.
I care because it's one of the reasons I play less D&D now than I did a few years ago. I got tired of a system saying I couldn't intimidate someone because my CHA was too low when I'm swinging doors around like like they're hammers. I got tired of a system saying I couldn't tell good berries from bad berries because Nature is a Wisdom skill.
I care because D&D can do better but the developers routinely choose not to. I'd like to see them change that, because I have mostly fond memories of playing D&D, but I outgrew its restrictions.
I'm not terribly interested in the debate. I want to see it change. That's really all there is to it.Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
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2021-11-19, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Except that the rules clearly state that you can do both the things, because they allow for the substitution of what ability is connected to a certain skill if it makes sense. You CAN intimidate with Strength, and you CAN associate Intelligence to Nature if it makes sense, the rules literally say that.
On this, we are of the same mind. Let's agree to disagree and move on.
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2021-11-19, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
People are intimidated by being convinced you're willing to go from threats to actually using violence without the ability stop you. I don't care how many muscles you have if I don't believe you're willing to actually attack me, or if I'm confident I can defend myself, because I have a knife in my pocket. And if you're already pushing my 4-hp commoner ass around and there's nothing I can do about that, why do you need any check? Muscle aren't gonna impress actually trained combatant, which is most of what you're facing in D&D.
My point is that strength absolutely makes sense in some contexts, and allowing it doesn't break the gate open for everything else. If your character is a big muscly warrior, the threat is going to be obvious. Strength determines accuracy and damage in melee combat.
Str (Intimidate) is propably the worst possible example to use for using different ability scores with skills, because it goes against what Cha or Str are for in D&D. Con (Athletics) or Dex (Performance) (assuming you're focusing on doing a juggling act technically correct instead of on impressing people) would be much better.
Intimidation is charisma based to decouple it from that one type of intimidation (physicality), but let's not make the mistake of thinking only charismatic people are intimidating or something.
Yes and in the real world you don't need to be Robert Downey Jr. to pull this off.
To my mind these are examples of failed checks.Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2021-11-19 at 03:42 PM.
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2021-11-19, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
It's pretty simple to answer if you want to allow someone to do this: determine the appropriate ability score for the action without worrying about what skill proficiency (if any) might apply.
"I'm trying to get NPC A to do thing I want B by doing C"
Is doing C a Strength check, or some other kind of check?
Edit: actually I am mistaken. The question is: is trying to get someone to do what you want by doing C is a Strength check or not?
Edit2: Also, it's worth noting that using skill proficiencies with different ability scores is a PHB variant, and the variant specifically calls out using Strength (Intimidation). Without the variant, there's no question this should be Charisma (Intimidation).Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-11-19 at 04:18 PM.
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2021-11-19, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
I would also point out that unless your charisma is really spectacularly bad, I'm having a hard time seeing how you would be "unable" to intimidate people just because you didn't max charisma.
DC 20 is where social checks *top out*. for the most part, checks should start at around DC 10.
with a +1 charisma modifier and intimidate proficiency, you should be able to intimidate *in situations where the outcome is unclear* around 2/3 of the time as a level 1 character with no assistance (it improves considerably with help, too). and you know what that success rate lines up surprisingly well against? rolling your maxed out attack against the average armour class of a CR-equivalent creature.
this is not some massive impossible investment that no barbarian could ever hope to achieve. if you want to be intimidating, then don't dump your charisma and start complaining about how your terrible charisma makes you terrible at influencing people.
and if you find yourself constantly facing DC 30 checks for even the simplest thing, that isn't a problem with cha being the attribute that determines how well you intimidate people, it's the DCs that your DM is setting.
(on a side note: those bullies that people are talking about intimidating school kids... ever notice they tend to travel in groups, and that the *leader* does most of the talking? ever notice that they typically go after the socially inept? so really, you're likely looking at maybe a +2 or +3 modifier *with advantage* (from help action) to be effective in that scenario, and guess what? for DC 10 that's around 84% or 88% give or take. frankly, I'm not seeing the problem here)
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2021-11-19, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Brawn is imposing and scary. However you aren't engaging with the main motivations for the claim:
- Fighters and barbarians should be scary and imposing in a way bards normally aren't
- Strength only has one skill based on it - and is therefore massively short-changed compared to everything except Con
However, I contest that allowing one to roll Intimidation with Strength should logically translate to being able to roll Intimidation with any skill
Constitution: (Chugging something poisonous or otherwise dangerous) "Tastes like me mums' apple cobbler."
(Aside: I know Medicine is a Wisdom skill, but it really ought to be an Int one, or at least split into Int and Wis branches)Currently in playtesting, now with optional rules for a cover based sci-fi shooter.
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2021-11-19, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
The ultimate problem here is that abilities are defined tautologically. "Strength is Strength and does what Strength does. Charisma is Charisma and does what Charisma is."
Definitionally, charisma is tied to intimidation because it is and has been for a while. Charisma is the stat that you invest in to be a 'face' and if you were a high-charisma character and you couldn't intimidate people effectively in some situations that would feel wrong. You invested in the 'social control' stat and you're being denied the ability to control things. I'm pretty confident nobody would argue that there are incidents where someone with charisma shouldn't be allowed to intimidate someone.
So what's the problem here? Well, the problem is that charisma does a lot more than just charisma and gets applied to a lot of things (sorcerer and warlock and paladin casting) that stretch the definition and feel awkward. So while it makes sense for a warlock to be scary, it makes less sense for the paladin to be scary. Meanwhile, some classes that archetypally feel as though they should be scary (like a barbarian) are not because they have little use for charisma otherwise.
The solution? No way around it, you have to actually do the work and go through the troublesome edge cases and develop solutions for each slight flavor problemMake Martials CoolAgain.
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2021-11-19, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Interesting. I would not consider this the classic situation. I wouldn't even consider a menacing average guy to be classic. I would consider a big strong threatening guy to be the classic Intimidate scenario. Similar to the image in the PHB for the Intimidate skill.
But it's not the two big brawny guys who are saying that. It's the scrawny little fellow in the expensive suit in between them who's doing the talking. The brawny guys are just the masterwork tool.
Note, I am not saying the scrawny guy can't do what you described. I am saying that doesn't preclude the big brawny guys from cutting the middle man out and doing it themselves.
Now, if the goal here is just to make barbarians more intimidating, then the proper solution isn't to let them use Str for intimidation in general. The proper solution is to make them still use Cha, but give them expertise.
Originally Posted by JackPhoenix
And if you're already pushing my 4-hp commoner ass around and there's nothing I can do about that, why do you need any check?
Muscle aren't gonna impress actually trained combatant, which is most of what you're facing in D&D.
Yes. And Charisma "measures your ability to interact effectively with others." If you're trying to intimidate someone, you're trying to interact effectively with an other.
If you say "Intimidate is trying to interact effectively with another person" and I say "my fighter is proficient in Intimidation", what does that mean to you?
The Mountain in GoT may be big and strong, but in D&D, he would also have decent Cha, even if he doesn't use it for anything except Intimidate.
Yes, because you've mistaken the ability to physically push someone around for the ability to get them to do what you want.
Once again, I'm not arguing that charisma doesn't make sense. But the notion that strength doesn't fit in certain contexts is outright incorrect.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2021-11-19, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Do you use intimidation for things like "In the name of the Holy Light, I command you to stop and surrender!" or "You're under arrest for crime against the the universal Good! Do not resist!"? If yes, then I'd say it's quite reasonable for the paladin to be good at it, and more generally for Charisma to be the standard ability score for those intimidation checks.
If you consider they fall under persuasion (or maybe performance since it's arguably acting?), then yes, Intimidation should probably not be a Charisma skill at your table.
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2021-11-19, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
STRENGTH
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.
STRENGTH CHECKS
A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.
CHARISMA
Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.
CHARISMA CHECKS
A Charisma check might arise when you try to influence or entertain others, when you try to make an impression or tell a convincing lie, or when you are navigating a tricky social situation. The Deception, Intimidation, Performance, and Persuasion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Charisma checks.
The definitions are there. They tell us a couple of things: By default, strength is doing something by force, and charisma is doing something by interaction. And Intimidation proficiency is always a subset of Charisma checks.
The variant rule changes this. A DM might rule putting someone in a choke hold until they agree to do what you want is either Strength (Intimidation) or even Charisma (Athletics).
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2021-11-19, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
The part I quoted from the dmg isn’t listed as a variant. It’s just standard.
Chapter 8. Skills.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dm...he-game#Skills
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2021-11-19, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
I'm just saying that paladins being good at channeling divine energy and paladins being scary doesn't seem like it should flow from the same source. It's the sort of problem that all ability scores run into eventually, as seen with the "why is my cleric good at wilderness tracking" issue.
Yes, thank you for quoting the part that literally says "skills are subsets of abilities" because that was my point. It's tautological. Charisma applies intimidation because definitionally intimidation is part of charisma. QED.Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2021-11-19, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Agreed.
Intimidation isn't the act of convincing someone you have the ability to hurt them.
It's having them believe that you will hurt them.
There is a huge difference.
I've worked around dangerous people. I've felt comfortable around someone twice my size who was stomping and swearing at people because I came to the conclusion that they were just trying to show how tough they were. I've been afraid of someone half my size because they made me believe that they wouldn't think twice about hurting me or the consequences for doing so.If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.
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2021-11-19, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Yep. In my experience, it's kind of like counting ammunition -- on paper, every DM's "supposed" to make players do it, but in practice, almost every DM I've played under links the skills to their "default" ability scores. Athletics is always Str, so on.
What's so interesting about the "Why can't people do Strength (Intimidation)" debate is that it seems to always boil down to two poles.
The red corner:
And the blue corner:
There are people who view all social interaction checks as a singular block, with no internal taxonomy or variation (i.e. "It all boils down to the player trying to get the NPC to do what they want, isn't that all the same thing,"), and then there are people who see social interaction as an arena where there's conceptual space for characters of different classes and strengths to matter. Neither of these approaches are right or wrong, but they define the role and texture of social interactions in a game where that approach is the central philosophy.
It's the problem with D&D advertising social interaction as a "pillar" -- while Charisma should certainly be the primary ability for purposes of getting what you want from people, there needs to be just a wee bit more ability score latitude, the way there is in combat. They found a way to make all the ability scores matter in combat (depending on what class/kind of caster you are), so there's an expectation that they would do something at least a little bit similar for social interaction, right. Why not threaten someone with Strength, put on a show with Dexterity, manipulate an unwitting pawn with Intelligence, or resolve a dispute using Wisdom. But if you don't subscribe to decoupling skills from singular abilities, then none of this ever happens, and social interactions feel like "you must have X Charisma or higher" in order to feel like you matter.
But again -- if you see all social interactions as one note, "You're trying to get X from Y, roll for it," then it feels silly to make social skills anything other than Charisma, it would be like making an Acrobatics check using Intelligence. I understand the logic of the viewpoint, even though I don't adopt it in my games.
Right there with you folks. Quick fix: give every player (at a certain level) a choice of either an ability that works like the Samurai's Elegant Courtier (add X ability bonus to this one kind of social check) or an ability that works like the Swashbuckler's Panache (you make X social check against enemy's Insight or Investigation, if successful, you impose Y attitude on the creature or compel the creature to react in Y fashion). It's not perfect, but it gives players in the classes that are totally social-pillar-bereft something fun to do when the right social situation comes up.
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2021-11-19, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Nope. It's a variant. PHB 175.
DMG p139 is just describing the same variant without calling it out as being a variant rule.
By default without the variant rules, all skill proficiencies are fixed to and a subset of a specific ability check.
Yup. I really should have included the first sentence of your next paragraph in my quote.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-11-19 at 09:00 PM.
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2021-11-19, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
This scene from Looper demonstrates why proving you have superior force isn't itself intimidating.
"It's not the gun I'm not afraid of."
Warning: ableist slurs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qcRmngeBHoIf you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.
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2021-11-19, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
*grin*
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2021-11-19, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
If you have superior force and want to be intimidating you don't threaten with it, you use it.
A big guy stomping around isn't necessarily intimidating (it could be, lower check, depends on the person saving). Breaking all your fingers and rearranging your friend into a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone is far more effective at intimidation. You don't need to believe or be convinced this guy can hurt you. He doesn't even need to say anything.
I'd argue torture is a good argument for Strength+Intimidation.Last edited by False God; 2021-11-19 at 10:07 PM.
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2021-11-19, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-11-19, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Because the DMG is explicitly called out as unnecessary in this edition. You can run the entire game from the PHB. The DMG only provides additional options, some more details, and some information to help people dig deeper. Unlike 4E or 3.5, the 5E DMG is not required reading.
Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
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2021-11-19, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
That's not intimidation anymore.
Intimidation is making a threat and succeeding is having them believe you.
Carrying out the threat is just attacking. What someone does under torture is up to the DM (and possibly the table). If any charisma checks are happening at that point they're probably going to be deception or persuasion. Promising that the torture will stop if the victim does what the torturer says.
Personally I'm not interested in such a game and I'm glad we don't have mechanics for torture in D&D.If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.
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2021-11-19, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Bolded for emphasis. Intimidation is any approach to getting people to do what you want that isn't particularly nice. "Bad things will happen if you don't do what we say." can be conveyed with words, as I just did, or more. Heck, terrorism is just extreme intimidation. *blows up building* "Do what we say or we'll blow up more stuff." is pretty unsubtle intimidation tactics.
IRL intimidation tactics used against striking workers often included physical violence. You don't need to kill everyone or beat up everyone, you just need to rough up a few of them to demonstrate you're capable of doing that to everyone and potentially doing more.
Threats can be actions as much as words. The fact that you attacked once doesn't mean you can't attack again, or that you can't attack harder. You don't need to be particularly charismatic to say "Hey we just broke your friends face, you better stay in line if you don't want us to break your face." You just need to break someone's face.Last edited by False God; 2021-11-19 at 11:29 PM.
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2021-11-20, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
A what? There's no such thing as Intimidate check. Or any skill check, for that matter. There are ability checks... 6 types, one for each ability... and you may add your proficiency bonus if you have a proficiency (skill, tool or other) if it's appropriate to what you're trying to do. So, the entirety of your argument is based on your misunderstanding of the rules we're talking about.
What does that group add? More charisma? No, more strength.
Well now you're just acting like Charisma is mind control. A roll is needed. So yes, I'm not saying muscles are going to have the Praetorian Guard parting to let you pass. You have to roll. But why would charisma be any more intimidating to a trained and armed combatant than another muscly trained and armed combatant? Charisma is not a god stat...
If you say "Intimidate is trying to interact effectively with another person" and I say "my fighter is proficient in Intimidation", what does that mean to you?
I disagree. Again, think about it. The Mountain is PASSIVELY intimidating. He has a reputation and is a giant of a man. People are intimidated just when he walks by. He's not actively rolling charisma checks to do it.
Once again, I'm not arguing that charisma doesn't make sense. But the notion that strength doesn't fit in certain contexts is outright incorrect.
I'd say if it get to that point, it's not a matter of the torturer's ability, but the victim's willpower. Actually, that may be good place for using the torturer's passive score as a DC for the victim's save, if the GM wants help with determining the DC.Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2021-11-20 at 12:30 AM.
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2021-11-20, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Always mildly amused by any thread which is essentially "Unpopular Opinion: The Game as Written Actually Works Just Fine." Hardly an unpopular opinion, when the game in question is the most popular and widely-played in its genre.
I'm inclined to agree with the main post.
Now, of course, I can hardly deny that you could use another skill to SUPPLEMENT Charisma for the purposes of an Intimidation check (I just gave some examples, after all), so I'd be interested in hearing propositions on how to create a kind of Synergy Bonus mechanic.Last edited by Catullus64; 2021-11-20 at 10:57 AM.
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2021-11-20, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
Yes, the threat is that you're going to attack again.
There needs to be a threat for it to be intimidation.
If the DM determines that the creature is sufficiently cowed due to your force that's not an ability check. The DM just determined success. It's not strength, or dexterity, or anything else. If the DM determines that it is uncertain whether the creature believes you will strike again we're back to charisma.
And sometimes acts of violence will be less intimidating than the mere threat. If someone tries too hard to be intimidating it is a give away that that is all they're trying to do, to be intimidating.If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.
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2021-11-20, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
A Str 20 but Cha 8 character has low presence. They don't know how to project themselves into a situation. Even if they stand there doing nothing except looking muscle-y and maybe scarred (and possibly 3ft tall) they don't do it in a way that commands attention (-1 to all Cha checks). They are meek and fade into the background.
If they have proficiency in intimidation, not only do they know how to have a scary presence better than the next commoner (+1), but by the time they reach demigod level (17+) they do it as well (+5) as those with the absolute best presence, but who don't have a special focus in intimidating folks.
Anyone that sees them in action, not trying to scare someone into doing what they want, is going to be as terrified as watching any other PC slaughtering their enemies, and react appropriately. No checks needed.
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2021-11-20, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: Intimidation is fine as a Cha skill
I had a whole response typed out to JackPhoenix but the tone I read into his reply really turned me off so I'm just going to make some general points here. To be fair to JackPhoenix, I was using 3rd edition parlance so I was indeed not speaking about the checks in 5E specifically how they work, but I'll reiterate my point here to clarify what I meant.
One of the general responses to people that don't think Strength fits with Intimidation is that "it doesn't matter how strong you are, if you can't convince me that you will carry out your threat, I won't be intimidated". The intimation here is that you need Charisma in order to convince someone.
This clearly is not true. The game revolves around dice rolls. You can have a -3 charisma modifier and still succeed on an Intimidation check if you roll well and beat the DC. This is why I say people conflate the Ability Score with the Skill check.
In addition, having Proficiency in Intimidation means that you have "a focus" in that particular skill. So to say that someone proficient in Intimidate wouldn't know how to compel someone through Intimidation doesn't follow. We are, by definition, speaking of someone that knows how to Intimidate people if we're talking about a character with proficiency in the skill.
Ok so why would Strength apply? It's pretty simple, to my mind:
STRENGTH
Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force.
STRENGTH CHECKS
A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.
What people are arguing is that it doesn't make sense that you can intimidate someone with bodily power, or raw physical brute force. And this seems like a bad argument to make. So let's just imagine a fighter with proficiency in Intimidate. And he wants to make a Str(Intimidate) check. We can imagine the fighter flipping over a long table when he makes his demands, or grabbing someone's throat and holding them there, or bring his axe down in a powerful overhead chop on the table, or crushing a helmet in his hands, etc. This is all in line with applying brute physical force or bodily power.
This is why the variant mentions this. Because normally, when you use Charisma to Intimidate, you're doing it through "confidence and eloquence" or a "charming or commanding personality".
But with Strength, you're applying bodily power and brute force to do it. And this is in line with Intimidation because Intimidation says:
When you attempt to influence someone through overt threats, hostile actions, or physical violence...
Obviously you can use bodily power and brute physical force to employ hostile actions and physical violence.
So to my mind, this isn't really an argument and the book is clear. I think people put way too much stock in Charisma as the only way by which anyone can be influenced by anything at any time. It just doesn't reflect reality, and I am glad the game included the variant so that DMs can give players flexibility to be creative and try different approaches.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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