Seeking Opinions on a Thief-Build

[Doctor Despair]

In a recent challenge to optimize a purely mundane character without using maneuvers, magic items, psionics, incarnum, etc, I put together the following character:

Spoiler: Mundane Build

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Spoiler: Ghost of Tsushima

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Spoiler: Ability Scores, Race, and Templates

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		Dragonborn	Telthor	Half-Elf
Stat	Array	After Racial/ Template Modifiers	4th	8th	12th	16th	20th	Final
Str	8	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Dex	17	15	-	-	-	-	-	15
Con	8	10	-	-	-	-	-	10
Int	14	14	-	-	-	-	-	14
Wis	8	8	-	-	-	-	-	13
Cha	17	17	+1	+1	+1	+1	+1	22

Spoiler: HD 1-20 Build

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HD	ECL	Class	BAB	Notable Skills	Feats	Class Features
1	3	Fighter	+1	2 ranks in Iaijutsu Focus, Listen, Sleight of Hand	Ghostly Grasp, Blind Fight	-
2	4	Marshal	+1	5 ranks in listen, 2 in Iaijutsu Focus, Sleight of Hand	Skill Focus: Diplomacy	Minor aura (motivate charisma)
3	5	Half-Elf Paragon	+1	6 ranks in listen, 3 in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus	Skill Focus: Listen, Keen-Eared Scout	Divided ancestry, elven vision
4	6	Human Paragon	+1	6 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	Adaptive learning (iaijutsu focus)
5	7	Human Paragon	+2	8 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Master Pickpocket	-
6	8	Ranger	+3	9 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Improved Initiative, Urban Tracking	Favored environment (underground), wild empathy
7	9	Ranger	+4	10 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Quick Draw	-
8	10	Half-Elf Paragon	+5	11 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	Persuasion
9	11	Fighter	+6	12 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, 11 in Listen	EWP: Katana, Weapon Focus: Katana	-
10	12	Iaijutsu Master	+7	13 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Weapon Finesse (Katana)	Canny defense
11	13	Iaijutsu Master	+8	14 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	Lightning blade
12	14	Iaijutsu Master	+9	15 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Skill Focus: Sleight of Hand
13	15	Iaijutsu Master	+10	16 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Skill Focus: Iaijutsu Focus	-
14	16	Iaijutsu Master	+11	17 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	Strike from the void
15	17	Iaijutsu Master	+12	18 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Combat Expertise	-
16	18	Iaijutsu Master	+13	19 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	-
17	19	Iaijutsu Master	+14	20 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	One strike, two cuts
18	20	Iaijutsu Master	+15	21 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	Improved Disarm, Snatch Weapon	-
19	21	Iaijutsu Master	+16	22 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	Strike with no thought
20	22	Scorpion Wraith	+17	23 ranks in Sleight of Hand, Iaijutsu Focus, Listen	-	Poison use, sudden strike +1d6, wild empathy

I felt pretty satisfied with the way the character turned out within the confines of the challenge, but I've been puzzling over how to use the build's main gimmick in a less restricted build.

The character uses the Telthor template (LA+2) to gain the incorporeal subtype, and the Dragonborn of Bahamut template to strip the negative traits from the Telthor template. Then, as an incorporeal creature, it flies underground and uses Keen-Eared Scout to pinpoint creatures aboveground and identify the items they're wearing and carrying. It then uses Ghostly Grasp and Master Pickpocket to reach out from underground and free-action steal all those items; the items become incorporeal when the character steals them and vanish underground with no easy recourse for the victim.

The concept itself feels very synergistic to me, but there are a lot of build resources left on the table with it. We can't bring a familiar or animal companion underground with us (and so can't get free Alertness that way), but Ghostly Grasp / Skill Focus: Listen / Keen-Eared Scout / Master Pickpocket can all come online in 6 levels with any human build (or in 5 with levels in Human Paragon). We still have basically the entire build left to fiddle with.

This left me with the question: if I allow myself to use classes that have maneuvers, SLAs, SuAs, or spellcasting, how would this build look different?

Spoiler: Build Considerations

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This wasn't the first build where I tried to use Telthor's access to incorporeality to try to abuse the rules surrounding line-of-effect. In my Phantom of the Opera build, I used bardic music effects that don't rely on LOE to engage in one-sided encounters, and Subsonics to hide the fact that the character was present on the battlefield in the first place. I speculated about whether or not I could shove Master Pickpocket into that build, but there just aren't enough general feat slots left to play around with.

Then, I started to consider other effects that ignore line of effect. There was a long stretch of time where I tried to find a way to fit in Nemesis along with two levels in either Stalker of Kharesh or Harper Paragon to get Favored Enemy: Evil. I reasoned it would maximize the value of being able to ignore line of effect as a detection mode for the Nemesis feat, and it might be valuable to be able to automatically know enemies' alignments. Ultimately, I struggled to find many things better than Smite Evil that benefited from knowing enemies' alignments. Additionally, the detection mode is significantly less valuable when the build already includes Keen-Eared Scout.

Next, I started to look for ways to capitalize on what will probably be a high sleight of hand check, but there was surprisingly little support for the skill. The Rules Compendium has Dagger Surprise as an alternate use of it, and few classes offer new uses for it. Several classes offer bonuses to it (most after a few levels), but there was a disappointing lack of new modes, and none that are useful in this situation to my eye.

I started to try to hunt for class abilities that would benefit from an incorporeal creature's ability to ignore natural armor, armor, and shields, as well as an incorporeal creature's ability to attack from within an object (or the ground) to deny enemies their dexterity to AC. The bar was iaijutsu focus, as that's what the mundane build already did.

• Suel Arcanamach and the Paladin Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels gain similar dispel-based class abilities with their Dispelling Strike and Spellshatter respectively. They are only usable a small amount of times per day though, and don't seem very reliable without more investment.
• Apostle of Peace, among other things, offers Pacifying Touch to attempt to end encounters, but the Vow of Poverty is somewhat inimical to being a Master Pickpocket.
• Church Inquisitor offers the "Force Shapechange" ability to dispel and suppress any effects from the alter self/polymorph/shapechange/alternate form trees, which seems interesting as alternate form actually shows up in a number of monster entries; the Lawful non-evil requirement is difficult to swing as a thief, but Iaijutsu Master has the same alignment requirement, so that is roughly equivalent, although the requirement to be a member of a church is more daunting. All the other class abilities are somewhat dead, but it advances casting every level, so maybe there's something there.
• Lastly, Pierce Magical Protection, a feat, offers something that could be of use in combat to a party. It makes our character's attack (which already ignores most sources of bonuses to AC) ignore all magical bonuses to AC, and automatically dispels those effects upon successfully dealing damage. The Mage Slayer feat is definitely dead as we don't threaten creatures while we're underground, but so far as combat is concerned, PMP could definitely be useful -- and while it's more narrow than Dispelling Strike or Spellshatter, it us usable at-will and requires no check to complete. I also noticed it was nonmagical, so we could potentially slot it into the earlier version of the build.

Last of all, I considered things our character could do upon emerging from the ground after filching all the enemy's gear. The best option I saw was Witch Slayer's Momentary Disjunction; after we removed all their gear and possibly stripped their pre-buffed effects away, disabling their spells, SLAs, and SuAs seemed potent. However, the 1-round duration seemed less than ideal, and it offers a save. We can more effectively duplicate that effect by just wearing an Antimagic Torc and entering their square anyway.

If we (sadly) get rid of the level in Marshal, we can shuffle around our classes to get Pierce Magical Protection online from level 6. After losing Aereni Focus earlier in the build, and then losing Inspire Charisma, Iaijutsu Focus is starting to look less and less appealing as a primary schtick -- but I'm not sure what direction to take the build in. For alignment and roleplay reasons, I'm reluctant to look at that as a replacement, although as the class isn't from BoED, Complete Warrior, or Complete Arcane, I suppose there's technically no penalty to losing that after the first level. We could also jump through hoops for either class to justify why stealing is lawful...

Anyway, I suppose I'm asking: would anyone be willing to offer a comment or opinion on where I might take this thief build? I'm not very familiar with maneuvers or incarnum, so I'm not sure what I'm leaving on the table there.

[Anthrowhale]

It's not clear to me that anything you pick up becomes incorporeal.

However, if you are allowing yourself magic items, then you can pay 10% more (SS page 42) to make any equipment ghost touch, including a bag of holding, which enables a similar 'rob them blind and escape underground' effect.

Have you considered moving in a more scout like direction (the role, not necessarily the class)? The ability to move around silently and employ ghostly grasp could transform that role from corpse-wannabe to desirable.

[Gruftzwerg]

Looks very nice for a "mundane" build. Impressive.

This left me with the question: if I allow myself to use classes that have maneuvers, SLAs, SuAs, or spellcasting, how would this build look different?

My El Mariachi build also works on the concept of avoiding enemies LOS and LOE. Earth Dreamer gives at will abilities to move and see through earth. Regarding Stances, he uses Blood in the Water to stack +1 to attack and damage for each crit.

[ben-zayb]

It's not clear to me that anything you pick up becomes incorporeal.

TOB has the incorporeality sidebar due to that Shadow Hand maneuver:

Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature’s possession. An object that the creature relinquishes loses its incorporeal quality (and the creature loses the ability to manipulate the object). I

Presumably, once you use Ghostly Grasp to carry a corporeal object, it too becomes incorporeal temporarily.

I'm thinking a Flyby attack build with Manyshot/Maneuvers/Spellcasting/Manifesting could work? You leave the ground, do your thing, then go back in.

[Anthrowhale]

TOB has the incorporeality sidebar due to that Shadow Hand maneuver:

Interesting, and moderately convincing. It would be most convincing if this was dealt with in the incorporeal description, but it does not seem to be.

[Doctor Despair]

It's not clear to me that anything you pick up becomes incorporeal.

Spoiler: MM3 p.214

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Incorporeal Subtype: ...
Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature
is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature’s possession.
An object that the creature relinquishes loses its incorporeal quality
(and the creature loses the ability to manipulate
the object). If an incorporeal creature uses a thrown weapon
or a ranged weapon, the projectile becomes corporeal as soon
as it is fi red and can affect a corporeal target normally (no miss
chance). Magic items possessed by an incorporeal creature
work normally with respect to their effects on the creature
or on another target. Similarly, spells cast by an incorporeal
creature affect corporeal creatures normally.

Away from computer right now, so a longer response will follow, but I thought I'd add this to avoid derailing the thread on this tangent.

[Anthrowhale]

Away from computer right now, so a longer response will follow, but I thought I'd add this to avoid derailing the thread on this tangent.

It's the interaction with Ghostly Grasp that's the tricky part:

You can ... use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal.

The phrasing of 'as though you were not incorporeal' implies that the item does not become incorporeal since 'not incorporeal' creatures don't turn items incorporeal by picking them up.

Think of a corporeal armor with an incorporeal creature inside rather than a ghost with incorporeal armor.

With that said, this understanding leaves a problem---the incorporeal creature has no strength score. So what do you use instead to determine what you can move?

[Doctor Despair]

It's the interaction with Ghostly Grasp that's the tricky part:

The phrasing of 'as though you were not incorporeal' implies that the item does not become incorporeal since 'not incorporeal' creatures don't turn items incorporeal by picking them up.

Think of a corporeal armor with an incorporeal creature inside rather than a ghost with incorporeal armor.

With that said, this understanding leaves a problem---the incorporeal creature has no strength score. So what do you use instead to determine what you can move?

That is an interesting quandary. I think you're creating a conflict where there need not be one though.

The feat specifically states: You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal. Special: Without this feat, an incorporeal creature can only wear or wield items that have the ghost touch special ability.

There are a few ways you can read this. The first, as you suggested, could mean that you can use that gear - but that you act as a corporeal creature, ignoring all other rules for incorporeality. This reading creates one dysfunction that you stated: with a nonability for strength, the feat does nothing and the character, in fact, cannot wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though they were not incorporeal.

However, there is another reading implied by the Special text. This action of wearing and wielding items is compared to items with the ghost touch special ability. Ghost touch items "can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time." When an incorporeal creature attempts to wear, wield, or otherwise use ghost touch corporeal items, however, technically they'd face the same problem. Unless they pick up the gear, it doesn't become incorporeal. If they are incorporeal, they don't have a strength score. If they have no strength score, even though they have the ability to pick up and move the gear, they lack the strength to do so. This means they cannot pick up the ghost touch gear, they cannot make it incorporeal, and so cannot use it. Clearly that's not the RAI here. Instead, when an incorporeal character attempts to pick up the item, it must become incorporeal for them (perhaps upon when they grasp it). This means they can pick up the item, which now counts as corporeal only when it is beneficial for the wielder or user.

The Ghostly Grasp feat can then be read to be duplicating that line from ghost touch for the purposes of any item: the weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. Incorporeal creatures cannot pick up and move corporeal items; the benefit of this feat is that you can. You can pick up the item as if you were corporeal; however, you are still actually an incorporeal creature. Then, as an incorporeal creature, you cause it to become incorporeal. There is no dysfunction here. Given the choice between the two readings (i.e., either ghost touch and ghostly grasp are dysfunctional, or neither are), I'd err in favor of the latter.

Have you considered moving in a more scout like direction (the role, not necessarily the class)? The ability to move around silently and employ ghostly grasp could transform that role from corpse-wannabe to desirable.

I'd call my Phantom of the Opera build more of a Pokemon trainer than a corpse-wannabe (or at least no more than any necromancer), but I digress.

Apart from boosting listen, I suppose the character could take Mindsight so that it can detect any creature that isn't completely silent and mindless... Or levels in Earth Dreamer to peer through the ground. I wasn't a fan of adding other detection modes because we already accomplish 90% of their benefit via Keen-Eared Scout and incorporeality, so it seemed inefficient to expend more resources there. Apart from getting some sort of telepathy through Fell Conspiracy or Mindbender, what do you think the character is lacking as a scout?

Looks very nice for a "mundane" build. Impressive.



My El Mariachi build also works on the concept of avoiding enemies LOS and LOE. Earth Dreamer gives at will abilities to move and see through earth. Regarding Stances, he uses Blood in the Water to stack +1 to attack and damage for each crit.

Sadly, it's occurred to me it's not quite as nice as a mundane build as I'd like. Without using magic items, an incorporeal creature can't deal mundane melee damage, so Iaijutsu Focus doesn't seem to do anything. Using a ranged weapon might work better, but then you wouldn't be able to attack from underground. It seems like it's a nombo for the purposes of that challenge unless you rule natural weapons don't count as melee weapons, and so are fair game for incorporeal creatures... Of course, getting even a +1 negates that issue.

I suppose quite technically, the character could carry objects above enemies and drop them from high up to deal damage. That would be a funny way to contribute, although you'd be vulnerable to serenwood archers or mages.

I like Earth Dreamer a lot, but earth gliding is a very different modality from incorporeality, and comes online a decent amount later.

TOB has the incorporeality sidebar due to that Shadow Hand maneuver:
Presumably, once you use Ghostly Grasp to carry a corporeal object, it too becomes incorporeal temporarily.

I'm thinking a Flyby attack build with Manyshot/Maneuvers/Spellcasting/Manifesting could work? You leave the ground, do your thing, then go back in.

Flyby Attack is an interesting thought. As an incorporeal creature, we can't fall, so we can ignore the minimum forward speed. We have 30 feet of poor flying movement, so we should be able to move forward 10 feet, then up 45% (to the surface) diagonally (costing us 10 feet of movement), then descent 5 feet afterward (costing double for being a second diagonal, but half because it's down), taking a standard action to attack using flyby attack in the meantime. This costs 25 feet of movement, so we can't hide effectively while doing it, but we can effectively fight one-sidedly this way (as they'd need a readied action to cast a spell or shoot us to deal with us). Our bolts would become corporeal after we fire them. Notably, the incorporeal subtype allows that their attacks pass through natural armor, armor, and shields. Is that RAI for it to apply to corporeal bolts? Of course not. Even ruling that out, eventually the enemy must flee or die. I'm sure maneuvers would only help this strategy. As an additional benefit: it's purely mundane!

I'm not sure I like Flyby Attack with spellcasting or manifesting normally, as part of the benefit of this strategy is that we sacrifice efficiency for defense. However, throwing in Fiery Burst could help resolve that issue, allowing us a renewable standard to attack with (that helpfully lets us ignore spell resistance and AC, as well as AOOs).

Would spamming Fiery Burst be better than using Manyshot? Technically we're limited in the amount of arrows we have with regard to the former, although that's not a practical limitation as they're weightless. Both abilities require that we have line of sight/line of effect. The former can be blocked by a high AC, a number of anti-ranged techniques, or DR greater than the damage we can muster; the latter can be blocked by fire immunity, great enough fire resistance, and reflex saves with uncanny dodge. The former has a higher range, but is more feat-intensive. The latter can technically affect more enemies, and can more easily damage objects.

Finally: are either of these better than using a magical weapon or magical melee attack of some sort and attacking from underground? I'll need to reflect on this a bit more. What do you think?

[Gruftzwerg]

Sadly, it's occurred to me it's not quite as nice as a mundane build as I'd like. Without using magic items, an incorporeal creature can't deal mundane melee damage, so Iaijutsu Focus doesn't seem to do anything. Using a ranged weapon might work better, but then you wouldn't be able to attack from underground. It seems like it's a nombo for the purposes of that challenge unless you rule natural weapons don't count as melee weapons, and so are fair game for incorporeal creatures... Of course, getting even a +1 negates that issue.

Yeah magic items make life easier..^^

Phasing ammunition for ranged weapons or Brilliant Energy for melee weapons would solve your problems here.

[ben-zayb]

Is there even LoE/LoS requirement for Fiery Burst? I don't recall it having one, and it has a 5-ft burst instead of a targeted attack. So as long as you have a way to pinpoint enemy location, you should be able to blast them from underground instead of doing a Flyby Attack.

[Anthrowhale]

That is an interesting quandary.

This seems reasonably convincing, but what would the limits be? Could a ghost use ghostly grasp on a ship?

Apart from getting some sort of telepathy through Fell Conspiracy or Mindbender, what do you think the character is lacking as a scout?

Some skills would be nice. Search (always) and Disable Device (to pave the way for friends).

W.r.t. attacks, is there a reason why you can't use Serrenwood yourself?

[Doctor Despair]

Is there even LoE/LoS requirement for Fiery Burst? I don't recall it having one, and it has a 5-ft burst instead of a targeted attack. So as long as you have a way to pinpoint enemy location, you should be able to blast them from underground instead of doing a Flyby Attack.

You don't need LoS, but I do believe you need LoE for any ability, effect, or spell to affect something unless it says otherwise, so we'd need to emerge. :/

This seems reasonably convincing, but what would the limits be? Could a ghost use ghostly grasp on a ship?

That's actually a rather thrilling image. I'd imagine Saint Elmo's Fire lightly dousing the ship as it fades to a ghostly blue and slowly lifts out of the water...

Regardless, Ghostly Grasp only allows you to wear, wield, and use corporeal items. I know object is a defined game term (and a very broad one at that), but I'm not sure I know of a specific definition for "item." Maybe we can nail it down a little.

Spoiler: What is an item?

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I think it's reasonable to assume the "item" must be clearly identifiable as one distinct item. The Fiend of Possession class differentiates between continuous and noncontinuous objects; a pool of water, a cloud of dust, or a section of wall or floor are specified as examples of a "noncontinuous object." If you are touching SOME of the water in a pool, I don't think all the water would become incorporeal; likewise, if you are touching SOME of the sand in a sand dune, I don't think the whole desert would become incorporeal. I think it's fair to say that if you are holding one board from a ship, that you are not necessarily in possession of the rest of the ship. After all, if a section of floor or wall is a noncontinuous object despite being attached by presumably some sort of nail, mortar, or adhesive, then why would a whole ship be considered one discrete item for the purposes of Ghostly Grasp?

To further go along this train of thought: the SRD discusses how drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. This could be seen to differentiate between liquids (noncontinuous objects) and discrete items.

However, in the Fiend of Possession entry again, they gain Control Object, telling us that a singular object could include examples of items with some inherent mobility, such as a vehicle, a clock, or a crossbow. This makes some sense; many magic items have small or intricate parts -- armor, for example, has many distinct parts that take time to put on, and yet are called out as one item. Being uniform in material must not be a requirement to be part of a single item then. Indeed, an item made of these many small parts could be compared to a ship being made up of many planks or boards nailed together. The cart example is particularly telling.

Indeed, this isn't limited to just the FoP entry; in Libris Mortis, a Haunting Presence is described as an undead that can possesses an object-- and in that passage, it states: "If an object has parts that move, such as a wagon, a clock, or a crossbow, a haunting presence can control the object’s movement, though the object will move no faster than the undead itself could move in its normal form. Thus, a wagon can be made to steer toward a pedestrian on a street or roll out of a stable with no horse pulling it. A clock can slow or run backward. A crossbow can **** and fire (but not aim or load itself)." This tells us that something with multiple moving, unconnected parts, like a clock or a wagon, can be treated as a single object.

Does it follow that carts and ships would then be considered discrete items? Not necessarily. We know they are not noncontinuous objects; that doesn't mean they'd be considered items for the purposes of the feat, only that the FoP entry doesn't seem to preclude them from that. On the other hand, the Hulking Hurler entry implies that anything that can be an improvised weapon (read: any object) can be considered an item; alternatively, maybe that just means that only items are eligible to become improvised weapons, so we'd then have to ask: could a ship be used as an improvised weapon?

Whether an object is considered an item seems like it would ultimately be a DM call. A logical inference might be that if an object would fall apart under its own weight if held (such as a building, ship, cart, or other structure), then it wouldn't be considered an item; then again, that logic might preclude a birthday cake from being considered an item, as it wouldn't be able to hold itself up under its own weight. If we go with the permissive reading: technically anything that is considered a discrete item would be fair game. That's not even getting started on the mess that is intelligent items...

So maybe any continuous object could be considered an item, ruling out dirt, sand, air, dust, water, and... walls/floor? This implies to me, at least, that structures (such as buildings and possibly ships and the like) shouldn't be considered as continuous objects, but Hulking Hurler seems to offer a more generous reading. It's ultimately a DM call.

Now: if anything's an object, what can an incorporeal creature pick up? Anything?

Spoiler: What can an incorporeal creature lift?

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The Ephemeral Exemplar on page 53 of Libris Mortis can explicitly manipulate solid objects as easily as corporeal beings can (via Ghostly Grasp), so if another reading is valid, the answer "nothing" seems like it is incompatible with the RAI here.

I believe Ghostwalk has supplemental rules for incorporeal creatures, so let me see if anything is of use there.

Spoiler: Ghostwalk p.42

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MONSTER ABILITIES

Some traits and special abilities of monsters have spe-cial aspects or properties in the Ghostwalk campaign setting, as follows.

Incorporeal: A naturally incorporeal monster (such as a shadow or spectre) that is forced to manifest fully (whether by the Manifest Ward or a spell or item that duplicates its effects) is treated as if it had a Strength score of 10. It uses its Strength modifier instead of its Dexterity modifier on its melee attacks. In the Ghost-walk campaign, such a creature should be given Incor-poreal Form as a bonus feat; otherwise, the creature ends up far weaker than its CR would imply.

This is specific to Ghostwalk, but suggests that an incorporeal creature acting as a corporeal creature would be treated as if they had a strength score of 10.

In addition, the SRD describes that the modifier for nonabilities is +0, so an incorporeal creature would normally be acting as though they had a 10 when they use strength-based skills anyway.

With that said, Libris Mortis 142 tells us:

"An incorporeal creature that attempts to physically manipulate another incorporeal creature uses its Charisma score instead
of its Strength score to determine the success of the attempt."

That seems like it would be helpful at first glance, but it's specifically with regard to handling things that are already incorporeal (and therefore weightless). If they grappled and lifted the incorporeal creature over their head, they would pretty clearly use their charisma to determine their carrying capacity, but as the character has no weight, it is meaningless. It doesn't seem like it would have much bearing on whether or not the character could lift physical objects to make them incorporeal.

Another helpful bit of rules text comes on the same page with regard to what happens when an incorporeal creature is forced to become corporeal:

"The now-corporeal creature gains a Strength score equal to its
Charisma score (not including any nonpermanent modifiers to Charisma, such as an eagle’s splendor spell)."

The language of Ghostly Grasp seems relevant here. The creature can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though they were not incorporeal. If they were not incorporeal, they would use their charisma score, so perhaps the feat would check that ability to determine carrying capacity. This reading wouldn't be applicable to a ghost touch item however, as it doesn't have that language. The incorporeal creature would still have that nonability with regard to their ghost touch gear, and wouldn't be acting as if they were corporeal, which doesn't solve the dysfunction.

Then again, if an incorporeal creature uses their charisma to determine strength in all relevant situations when they are incorporeal, and they use their charisma to determine strength when they are forced to be corporeal, then maybe the general rule is just that charisma should substitute for strength in general for incorporeal creatures when relevant (which is seldom).

So the possible readings are:

1. They act as if they had a strength of 10 to determine carrying capacity. Normally, the nonability and subtype prevent the character from manipulating physical objects. Ghost touch and Ghostly Grasp both explicitly allow the character to manipulate physical objects, so we use 10 in lieu of the nonability as per the SRD rules for strength-related skills. Ghostwalk incorporeals use 10 when forced to manifest too.

2. They act as if they had a strength score equal to their charisma score to determine carrying capacity. They normally act as though they had strength equal to their charisma when interacting with incorporeal creatures, and they gain a strength score equal to their charisma when they are corporeal interacting with corporeal things. Normally, they can't be incorporeal interacting with corporeal things, but as the enhancement and feat both explicitly allow them to manipulate physical objects, their force of charisma determines how strong they are when they do this.

3. Whatever they touch becomes incorporeal before they have to lift it. Then, as it is weightless, they can lift as much as they want. Incorporeal creatures may grab ships, colossal boulders, or anything else the DM is willing to call an item and fly away with them.

Personally, #2 seems the most convincing to me. The fact that they use their charisma for strength-purposes against incorporeal creatures and their gear in spite of their nonability is fairly convincing to me that, if they were explicitly able to interact with a corporeal thing in spite of their nonability, they would use their charisma there, too.

So to answer the above question: to my eye, they would use the carrying capacity table with regard to their charisma.

Some skills would be nice. Search (always) and Disable Device (to pave the way for friends).

We should have some extra skills kicking around, but certainly those would come in handy. Unless it's an automatically resetting trap, Ghostly Grasp should let us trigger many mundane traps harmlessly, but magical traps could present more of an issue. I'll have to reflect on this over break (once I'm done updating grades :/ )

W.r.t. attacks, is there a reason why you can't use Serrenwood yourself?

Serren can be used to make bows, arrows, and bolts, and those items will have the ghost touch special property as a mundane effect. The book is silent on whether or not this applies to, say, a sword. We could possibly get around this by using an Elvencraft Bow. The elvencraft bow entry specifically says that "Magical enhancements to an elvencraft bow only affect its use as a bow. Enhancements to the melee capabilities of the weapon must be added separately." However, Serren is explicitly a nonmagical ghost touch, granting us a wooden club or quarterstaff.

We could also try to use arrows as improvised weapons, of course. I don't recall if the rules preclude using ghost touch ammunition as an improvised ghost touch melee weapon. There are fairly substantial penalties for this, of course, and not much benefit towards doing so over using an elvencraft bow.

[Anthrowhale]

Using charisma seems like a reasonable choice, but it's not clear to me this is canonical---different DMs could rule otherwise.

It does bring up a question though: Can you use charisma to pick up a heavy item with mass less than your carry capacity and then use charisma to pick up another heavy item with mass less than your carry capacity but with the sum greater than your carry capacity? More generally, can a ghost be encumbered by its incorporeal items? For consistency, I'd think 'yes', but it seems like we have quite a layer of suppositions.

The advantage of getting stabby with Serrenwood arrows is that you can quickdraw each in turn to apply IF to every attack. The penalty to hit here doesn't seem that important if you are making touch attacks.

[Doctor Despair]

Using charisma seems like a reasonable choice, but it's not clear to me this is canonical---different DMs could rule otherwise.

I'm not sure it gets much more clear-cut than this w.r.t. Ghostly Grasp at least:

"The now-corporeal creature gains a Strength score equal to its Charisma score (not including any nonpermanent modifiers to Charisma, such as an eagle’s splendor spell)."

Benefit: You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal.

They're in the same book, so you'd think they'd mesh together. It doesn't answer how an incorporeal creature can lift a ghost touch weapon though.

The Ghostwalk rules are specific to Ghostwalk ghosts, so I don't really like extending that to all incorporeals.

That leaves us with "no limit subject to DM fiat on what an item is."

The most conservative reading that doesn't mean ghost touch and ghostly grasp do nothing for incorporeals (expressly against their wording) is that you'd use a 10 (w.r.t. a nonability for strength having a modifier of +0). If ghost touch and ghostly grasp let you ignore the general rule that incorporeals can't move corporeal items, then that wouldn't be a crazy reading to default to -- and is probably the logic they used when writing Ghostwalk anyway. I think we're safe using 10 as the most conservative realistic reading.

It does bring up a question though: Can you use charisma to pick up a heavy item with mass less than your carry capacity and then use charisma to pick up another heavy item with mass less than your carry capacity but with the sum greater than your carry capacity? More generally, can a ghost be encumbered by its incorporeal items? For consistency, I'd think 'yes', but it seems like we have quite a layer of suppositions.

Personally, I think the RAW would be no, the ghost cannot be overencumbered, with the caveat that the item will become corporeal if you relinquish it. I'd think the Ghostly Grasp feat might be helpful to determine when you relinquish something: when you stop wielding, wearing, or using it. Presumably you could hold two max-capacity items (wielding one in each hand), or put two max-capacity items in a bag ("wearing" them), or... use two somehow, but not stack them on top of each other indefinitely. That limits incorporeal encumbrance to the amount of containers you can wear as a creature of your size category.

The advantage of getting stabby with Serrenwood arrows is that you can quickdraw each in turn to apply IF to every attack. The penalty to hit here doesn't seem that important if you are making touch attacks.

True! I hadn't thought of quickdrawing arrows like that for some reason. I was puzzling over the Sleight of Hand rules and trying to find a way to free action sheath an item with sleight of hand to draw the next turn. Sadly, even with quickdraw, it's a move action to draw an item "hidden" with SoH. The best thing I've got is that maybe we could combine the move action to hide underground with the move action to draw it.

With that said, I think only the first attack would make the enemy count as flat-footed unless we find a way to hide as a free action somehow, whether we are attacking with arrows or otherwise.

[ShurikVch]

It's not clear to me that anything you pick up becomes incorporeal.

By the RAW:

Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature's possession.

After all, Incorporeal creatures are have no Str score - thus, unable to manipulate anything corporeal (not even air!)

[Doctor Despair]

By the RAW:

After all, Incorporeal creatures are have no Str score - thus, unable to manipulate anything corporeal (not even air!)

In fairness to Anthrowhale, that's not where his point of contention comes from. I believe he's accepted that items picked up by an incorporeal creature become incorporeal. Anthro was questioning how an incorporeal creature "picks up" items without a strength score. It seems like it would be one of the following:

1. Touching the item is sufficient. If the DM determines something as a discernable, discrete corporeal item, the incorporeal creature can make it incorporeal (i.e. weightless) and lift it, regardless of its size. This could lead to extreme situations where an incorporeal creature lifts two colossal boulders at a time, or makes an entire vehicle incorporeal and flies it over difficult terrain, and so on. Even without considering terrain or vehicles, a fine incorporeal creature could lift as many colossal weapons as they have hands. It does neatly handle reasonable uses of the feat and of ghost touch, of course.
2. The character must lift the item. How this could work varies:

• With no strength score, one dysfunctional reading is that incorporeal creatures may not lift ghost touch items, or lift corporeal items at all even through the Ghostly Grasp feat. After all, ghost touch items only count as incorporeal when it is beneficial to the wielder; you aren't the wielder until you are holding it. While this is internally consistent, it does mean that Ghostly Grasp explicitly does nothing (and so is dysfunctional) and that ghost touch items can't be used by incorporeals (and so are dysfunctional, as they're explicitly supposed to be able to use them).
• With no strength score, the character uses 10 as their effective strength score w.r.t. carrying capacity, as incorporeal creatures already use 10 to calculate their modifier for strength-based skills. Ghostwalk incorporeals use 10 as their strength when forced to manifest fully, presumably based off this reasoning. There is no text that explicitly says this should be applied to carrying capacity that I am aware of though, and that lack of text in a permission-based system is a little damning for this reading.
• With no strength score, the character uses their charisma score as their effective strength score w.r.t. carrying capacity, as incorporeals explicitly use their charisma as their strength score for several purposes already (e.g. when attempting to manipulate another incorporeal creature, or when they are forced to become corporeal). Again, there is no text explicitly saying this, and that is fairly damning. However, Ghostly Grasp explicitly allows incorporeal creatures to pick up items as if they were not incorporeal; if they were not incorporeal, they would use their charisma to calculate their strength. While this does provide a neat bit of RAW to explain Ghostly Grasp, it is silent on how we would then avoid the dysfunction w.r.t. ghost touch items.

I don't think there's any dispute at this point that, upon picking up an item, it becomes incorporeal. I think we're just not sure how picking up an item is handled. What do you think, ShurikVch?

[ShurikVch]

as incorporeals explicitly use their charisma as their strength score for several purposes already (e.g. when attempting to manipulate another incorporeal creature, or when they are forced to become corporeal).

Source(s)?

I don't think there's any dispute at this point that, upon picking up an item, it becomes incorporeal. I think we're just not sure how picking up an item is handled. What do you think, ShurikVch?

I'm firmly in the #1 camp
I mean: if Danny Phantom (and bunch of other ghosts) turned the whole Earth incorporeal - then what's a boulder or vehicle to write home about?

[Doctor Despair]

Source(s)?

Libris Mortis p. 142

I'm firmly in the #1 camp
I mean: if Danny Phantom (and bunch of other ghosts) turned the whole Earth incorporeal - then what's a boulder or vehicle to write home about?

That's fair, and it's only ridiculous if a DM rules that all improvised weapons are items (and not just treated as items). Fiend of Possession states that sections of floor/walls should be treated as noncontinuous objects (arguably not discrete items), so buildings and terrain might be limited to X size anyway. Otherwise we could end up with an ECL3 incorporeal creature tunneling through a mountain/to the center of earth one colossal-sized chunk of rock at a time.

Edit: Or dropping colossal boulders on enemies. I suppose it's a nice canonical explanation for "rocks fall. Everybody dies."

[Zarvistic]

I feel rules compendium is pretty clear on the incorporeal stuff. Have you checked that?

Also I don't think you don't need to hide as a free action, you can just take the penalty to hide to full attack.

[Doctor Despair]

I feel rules compendium is pretty clear on the incorporeal stuff. Have you checked that?

Sadly, the rules compendium section on incorporeality is silent on HOW an incorporeal creature can pick up ghost touch items.

Also I don't think you don't need to hide as a free action, you can just take the penalty to hide to full attack.

I'm not sure that you CAN full attack and remain hidden. On the SRD under hide, it says:

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

The implication seems to be that you can make a SINGLE attack, then take a move action to hide for the -20 to your check. The rules compendium expands on this a little bit:

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10
feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then
take a move action to hide again. You take a –20 penalty on
your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

This makes explicit the fact that if you make an attack, it is a move action to hide again; you don't just stay hidden with a -20 to your check. This means that we'd be limited to one hide action and one IF strike each round with the exception of the surprise round and the first round if we win initiative. This sort of limits the benefit of using arrows, although the initial burst of damage is still significant. Free-action hiding would help a lot here.

Spoiler: Sad Reasons Why Feinting is Bad

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Surprising Riposte seems like the only way to effectively flat-foot an opponent with any sort of consistency.
In order to make good use of it, we need:

a. High bluff (as it's an opposed skill check where they get to also add their BAB.
b. A way to feint as a swift or free action (Invisible Blade, Scarlet Corsair, and Beguiler all offer this)
c. High iaijutsu focus (to make the damage worth the investment) and probably Iaijutsu Master

An issue here is that IB and SC are basically all dead levels apart from the interaction with feinting. Beguiler is a little better about this, but requires 6 levels.

Another issue here is that feint is designed to be a very cumbersome technique. Our steal-based abilities are already less useful against the sorts of creatures that don't have gear. Feint automatically fails against these creatures, meaning this hyper-specializes us, and the feint itself just won't succeed a lot of the time against enemies given the uneven check stats.

Even if we succeed in the feint, our first attack doesn't even benefit from the flat-footednes.

Fluff-wise, your opponent should probably be able to see you anyway.

[Doctor Despair]

An update here: I was digging around for classes that benefit or circumvent the penalties for attacking opponents with total concealment. Lurk and Shadowblade, for example, offer some limited access towards ignoring concealment. Shadow Sun Ninja has an interesting ability "Darkness Within Light" that almost seems like it would help you ignore concealment against blinded enemies (but not quite). Still, looking at it made me realize an option we haven't really explored yet: traps!

Spoiler: Combat Trapsmith (CS)

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Combat Trapping (Ex): You know how to create combat traps to aid your allies. At 1st level, you can learn two traps from the list below, provided you meet the prerequisites. At each level thereafter, you add one additional trap to your repertoire, to a maximum of six traps known. Whenever you attain a new level in this class, you can choose to replace any one previously learned trap with a new trap.

Trap Name	(Craft DC)	Prerequisites	Effect
Befuddler	15	-	—2 penalty on Concentration, Int-, Wis-, Cha-based checks
Enfeebler	15	Craft (alchemy) 1 rank	Fatigues target
Entangler	17	Class level 2nd	Entangles target
Equalizer	17	Class level 2nd	Target falls prone
Flashbang	19	Craft (alchemy) 3 ranks, class level 3rd	Blinds and deafens target
Footspiker	15	-	Halves target's speed
Glitterburst	15	Craft (alchemy) 1 rank	Makes invisible target visible
Scorcher	15	Craft (alchemy) 1 rank	Deals 2d6 fire damage
Scorcher, great	23	Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, class level 5th	Deals 5d6 fire damage in larger area
Sleeper	21	Craft (alchemy) 4 ranks, class level 4th	Target falls asleep
Spiderweb	19	Craft (alchemy) 3 ranks, class level 3rd	Web fills small area
Stinkburst	21	Craft (alchemy) 4 ranks, class level 4th	Stinking cloud fills trapped square

A combat trap is triggered by any Tiny or larger creature entering the trapped square. Flying or incorporeal creatures don't trigger combat traps. You can build a combat trap only on solid ground – you can't place it on a wall orceiling, in the air, or floating in the water. A combat trap functions only once. Once set, it lasts for 1 hour or until triggered, whichever comes first.

Crafting a combat trap requires a full-round action (which provokes attacks of opportunity) and a Craft (trapmaking) check. Each trap's entry lists the required Craft check DC. If the check is successful, you can place the trap in any square adjacent to your space. A failed check means that the action and materials are wasted to no effect, but you can try to set the same trap again later. Some combat traps allow a saving throw, as noted in a trap's entry. The save DC is 10 + your combat trapsmith level + your Int modifier. Locating or disabling a combat trap requires a successful Search or Disable Device check with a DC equal to 20 + your combat trapsmith level + your Int modifier. You can automatically find and disable your own combat traps. Because a combat trap is built quickly and crudely, it is also possible to discern with a successful Spot check (using the same DC as given above), whether or not the observer has the trapfinding class feature. All combat traps produce extraordinary effects, so dispel magic or spell resistance cannot interfere with them.

Unless otherwise noted, an ongoing effect from a combat trap lasts for a number of rounds equal to your combattrapsmith level. Multiple effects from the same kind of combat trap don't stack; use only the longer duration. Creating combat traps requires a special kit containing raw materials and tools. A combat trapsmith's kit costs 100 gp, weighs 10 pounds, and provides components sufficient to create ten traps. A combat trap can't be cannibalized for raw materials, nor can its materials be retrieved if the trap isn't triggered.

Spoiler: Combat Trap Descriptions

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Entering the trapped square produces the stated effect.

Befuddler: A pungent spray applies a —2 penalty on Concentration checks, as well as ability checks and skill checks based on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (Will negates).

Enfeebler: A puff of acrid powder renders the target fatigued (Fortitude negates).

Entangler: A hidden cord loops around the target, holding it in place as a tanglefoot bag does. A successful Reflex save negates the effect; alternatively, a DC 20 Strength or Escape Artist check (made as a full-round action) allows the stuck creature to break free.

Equalizer: The first creature entering the trapped square must succeed on a Reflex save or fall prone. The trap reputedly gets its name from its gnome inventor, who used it to bring taller foes down to his level.

Flashbang: The trapped square emits a blinding burst of light accompanied by a loud thunderclap. Any creature in the trapped square or any adjacent square becomes blinded and deafened; a successful Fortitude save lessens the effect to dazzled.

Footspiker: This trap effectively fills the designated square with caltrops, potentially slowing the target's movement (PH 126).

Glitterburst: A fine cloud of silver dust clings to any creature within the trapped square (no save). Any creature affected by a glitterburst trap takes a —20 penalty on Hide checks and, if invisible, is visibly outlined for the duration of the effect.

Scorcher: The trapped square releases a cloud of fine dust followed by a spark, setting off a small explosion that deals 2d6 points of fire damage to each creature in that square (Reflex half).

Scorcher, Great: This works like a scorcher trap (see above), except that it deals 5d6 points of fire damage to each creature in the trapped square and in all adjacent squares (Reflex half).

Sleeper: A slumber-inducing vapor makes the target fall asleep. A successful Fortitude save lessens the effect to fatigued.

Spiderweb: The trapped square releases a burst of sticky tendrils that toughen when they contact air. This trap duplicates the effect of a web spell, except that the strands fill only the trapped square and all adjacent squares.

Stinkburst: A cloud of noxious vapors duplicates the effect of a stinking cloud spell, except that the effect fills only the trapped square. A successful Fortitude save negates the effect, but a creature must make a new saving throw each round it remains within the cloud.

Spoiler: Trapsmith (Dungeonscape)

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Booby Traps (Ex): You can quickly set up simple booby traps (see the sidebar) to harm and hinder your foes. When setting up a trap, make a Craft (trapmaking) check. The check result is the Difficulty Class of an attempt to find the trap by making a Search check. Half the check result is the DC of an attempt to disarm the trap by making a Disable Device check. The check result affects other variables, too; see the Booby Trap sidebar below for details. Setting up a booby trap is usually a full-round action, though some take longer, as noted in the sidebar.

Starting at 3rd level, your skill improves such that you can create advanced versions of the simple booby traps you already know.

Spoiler: Booby Traps

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A trapsmith can create a number of different traps to hinder and harm foes. Each trap described below includes information on its area, effects, base cost, and cost per use. The base cost covers the parts of the trap that are reusable if recovered. The cost per use covers the pieces that are destroyed or expended when the trap is set off. All traps below are mechanical traps with a touch trigger.

A trapsmith can disable and disassemble one of his own traps without making a check. This process takes approximately 1 minute.

Other booby traps are possible with your DM's approval.

Alarm Trap: This trap is little more than a series of bells attached to a thin trip wire. When the wire is breached, the bells ring, and those nearby can attempt a DC —5 Listen check to notice the noise. This trap takes 1 round to set up per 10 feet of trip wire used. Anyone who runs into the trap can attempt a Reflex save to avoid setting it off (DC equal to 1/2 your Craft [trapmaking] check result).

Base Cost: 1 gp/10 ft.

Cost/Use: —.

Advanced Version: The DC of the Reflex save to avoid setting off an advanced alarm trap is equal to your Craft (trapmaking) check result.

Bolt Trap: This trap fires a light or heavy crossbow at one target that breaks a trip wire. The crossbow makes a single attack with a bonus equal to 1/2 your Craft (trapmaking) check result. The bolt deals standard damage for its type, but you can use masterwork or magic crossbows and bolts to enhance the accuracy or damage. The trap must be reset after the crossbow fires. The trap can cover a line of up to 20 feet.

Base Cost: 35 gp (light crossbow) or 50 gp (heavy crossbow); add 300 gp for a masterwork crossbow.

Cost/Use: None, or the cost of the ammunition if it is masterwork or magic.

Advanced Version: An advanced bolt trap fires up to three bolts from three separate crossbows. Setting up an advanced trap takes 2 rounds and requires three crossbows (tripling the base cost as appropriate to the type).

Drop Trap: A heavy or dangerous item is rigged to fall on anyone who crosses a trip line. When the trip line is breached, the item drops, making a touch attack with a bonus equal to 1/2 your Craft (trapmaking) check result. You can rig an alchemical item (which deals damage appropriate to the item) or a heavy object such as a stone (which deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage). The trap can cover a single 5-foot-square area.

Base Cost: 1 sp.

Cost/Use: Varies depending upon the cost of the dropped
item.

Advanced Version: An advanced drop trap can drop up to three alchemical items, a very heavy object (which deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage), or a net (which entangles the target, who can move freely but must make a successful DC 20 Escape Artist check to get out of the net).

Trip Rope Trap: This trap is made up of a strong rope attached tautly between two points. If anyone tries to cross the rope, it makes a trip attempt with a bonus equal to 1/2 your Craft (trapmaking) check result. The first creature to cross through the trap causes the rope to go slack, and it must be reset before the trap can be used again. The trap can cover a line of up to 20 feet.

Base Cost: 10 gp.

Cost/Use: —.

Advanced Version: An advanced trip rope trap makes the trip attempt using your Craft (trapmaking) check result for the opposed check. In addition, if the check succeeds, the trap can trip another creature that crosses through its space.

First (and not relevant for a specific build, but still appreciable) is that all of the traps are ex (and the Combat Trapsmith class is entirely ex), so this is viable for the previous challenge.

More notably, the traps only take 1 or 2 rounds to set-up, giving them in-combat utility.

If we use Ghostly Grasp to make traps on the ground from underneath the floor, we should be able to take advantage of the cover our incorporeality affords us to avoid attacks of opportunity. The stealth the ground affords us should also allow us to capitalize on the hidden nature of traps to litter the battlefield without alerting enemies immediately.

This means we should have access to a number of effects normally restricted to spells (and some damage-dealing routines) without leaving the safety of the underground.

Lastly, this also allows us to lean into the trap finder/disabler archetype you were suggesting, Anthro. I'll have to think about how to fit all this in effectively. Thankfully neither of these classes have feat prerequisites, but their addition does make us a little MAD (as we need Cha for Ghostly Grasp, Dex for Master Pickpocket, and now Int for skills and Combat Trapsmith DCs. I suppose we could take two extra levels in Marshal to make us a little less MAD (i.e. we get Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Intelligence); alternatively, we could use Factotum 3 to get Int to Dex, and just write off the 15 cha as a loss in stat-generation. Factotum 3 is probably more efficient, to be fair... Maybe something like this would be workable:

1 Half-Elf Paragon (Aereni Focus: Sleight of Hand, Ghostly Grasp)
2 Human Paragon
3 Human Paragon (SF: Listen, Keen-Eared Scout)
4 Factotum
5 Factotum
6 Factotum (Master Pickpocket)
[We now have a minimum 24 roll with no AOO on SoH to steal an item]

7 Trapsmith
8 Trapsmith
9 Trapsmith (SF: Sleight of Hand)
[We now have an automatic 30 on our SoH check]

10 Trapsmith
11-20 Exemplar

W.r.t. a purely mundane build, Quick Draw with serrenwood arrows and the Iaijutsu Master build is almost certainly the ideal way to do damage, as incorporeality grants you a surprise round 99% of the time, and hiding while underground grants you one IF trigger/round. An alternative build might involve Combat Trapsmith to rely on Scorcher for damage, but has few efficient options to attack enemies with fire resistance or immunity.

I like the above for a magic-using build however. If we are willing to rely on specific items (or, in this case, magical locations), we could buy access to the Otyugh Hole for Iron Will and take Hardened Criminal at level 3; that allows us to go human instead of half-elf, and gives us an automatic 30 at level 6 instead of 9. This avoids alignment restrictions, and the theft-angle is actually relevant to the trap-crafting (as the stolen goods can fund the trap materials). I may want to do a full write-up on this soon...

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. hide, I don't think you need to even make a hide check when you have total concealment. The SRD says:

...total concealment usually ... obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

The unusual case is invisibility, which does not apply here.

Basically, no LOS => you are hidden.

[Doctor Despair]

W.r.t. hide, I don't think you need to even make a hide check when you have total concealment. The SRD says:

The unusual case is invisibility, which does not apply here.

Basically, no LOS => you are hidden.

There's a case to be made that the sniping rules mention ranged attacks, and that ranged attacks explicitly require LOS, so they shouldn't be used as a model for melee attacks (which can be made when LOS isn't present). If we treat "no LOS" as equal to "hidden," then opponents would always be treated as flat-footed, and that makes IF a lot more rewarding as that high-damage mode. Quite technically, I haven't seen a piece of rules text that says attacking reveals you; only that you can't hide while observed (which necessitates either total concealment or hide in plain sight).

On the other hand, why snipe (e.g. take a move action to hide) if you can just take the -20 (the same penalty you'd take from sniping) to full attack anyway? Well, Curmudgeon clarifies a little some of the differences here, and it's not necessarily kind to our build. He says that to full attack while hiding, you need to satisfy the requirements to hide:

Spoiler: Snip

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Can you still satisfy all the Hide skill requirements while attacking?

• line of sight to the target
• cover/concealment
• not being observed

An ability like Ranger Camouflage will bypass the second requirement. An ability like Ranger Hide in Plain Sight will bypass the last requirement. The superior Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight bypasses both of them at once. If you've got something like these, you can attempt to Hide while attacking. If you don't have some form of Hide in Plain Sight you do need to use the Sniping option to Hide after attacking (not nearly as good as using HiPS to Hide while attacking).

That's what it comes down to.

How do you figure that list can't be fulfilled while attacking?

LoS: Obviously, or you wouldn't be able to shoot the guy.

Cover: you can shoot at someone who you have cover against. It's easy to shoot at someone through thick brush if you're right up against the brush and they're 20 feet away from it.

Not being observed: Here's the tricky bit. Even if you weren't being observed before the attack, your enemy can easily find where the arrows are coming from, but by RAW, you're still entitled to that -20 hide check, because "an arrow came from that direction" does not automatically tell you "an arrow was shot from that 5-foot square".

D&D has no facing, in any respect, so "from that direction" isn't a game concept. Either you're seen while attacking or your target doesn't have a clue. Attacking is a blatant act. Without Hide in Plain Sight you pretty much can't Hide while attacking. Your target would need to fail their "in plain sight" Spot check (i.e., fail to observe you, even casually) for you to be allowed to Hide without HiPS.

The DC to notice something in plain sight is 0. When you attack, you only have cover, not full cover. Explicitly, a creature with a readied action can strike the incorporeal creature as it attacks, so we also lose total concealment for the duration of our strikes. Our opponents have line of sight to us, so we'd be unable to hide unless they rolled a -1 on their spot check, even though our cover would entitle us to a hide check. Until we end our attack and retreat back into the floor, that is.

Now, if we get access to Hide in Plain Sight, naturally we'd avoid that issue. Then we'd just have to beat their spot check +20 (and the irony of saying just is not lost on me). Shadowdancer 1 or the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis are probably the easiest to access, as half our body will be in the total darkness of the wall. We can't use the dark template, as Dragonborn of Bahamut would strip away the HiPS. Hellbreaker 1 would work with a favorable DM, but by RAW only gives you HiPS against creatures with dark vision, even though half our body will still be in darkness. Sadly, this means the IF-based build would to get full attacks while remaining nonmagical.

To answer the question above though: presumably the snipe option is meant for those without Hide in Plain Sight who want to hide after making an attack, as they'd need unbroken LoS to their target to attack, and so would otherwise be unable to hide once they were observed.

I worked a little on the trap concept below. I used the Dragonborn Telthor Human as a base. Stats using 32 point buy had 17 dex (reduced to 15 by templates), 16 int, 15 charisma, 9 wis, 10 con, - str, and all extra points went into int at every level (except arguably level 20, I suppose).

Spoiler: Trapmaster

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HD	Class	Feats	Features	Notes
1	Factotum	Skill Focus: SoH, Ghostly Grasp	Inspiration, cunning insight, cunning knowledge, trapfinding	With a 15 in dex and a masterwork tool, we can have an automatic 21 on SoH checks if we take 10. This isn't useful in combat, as it draws AoOs, but it is enough to steal items one at a time. Being incorporeal lets us sense creatures when they're in the next square over, so in settlements, we can become a thief from level 1. Cunning Knowledge lets us pump our base-listen about once every five minutes (2x/encounter). This can also be applied to especially tricky SoH targets if we fail to steal something, or to a disable device check on a particularly difficult trap we find with Trapfinding. We essentially function as a scout at this level. For combat, apart from stealing, we can use a bow or crossbow to some effect, although that requires us to leave the underground. The arrows we use become corporeal when shot, letting us contribute in at least some capacity.
2	Human Paragon	-	Adaptive learning	At this level, we can technically afford a serren elvencraft bow which, while it can be used as a bow, can also be used as a beating stick with no penalty, allowing us to physically attack our foes to contribute to combat. Now, if we desire, we can begin camping out underground full-time while still earning experience from combat. We don't have the most effective mode to find enemies at this level, but we can still sense creatures' presence above us if we are underground.
3	Human Paragon	Skill Focus: Listen, Keen-Eared Scout	-	Now we can hear the gear and items creatures carry, and pinpoint their location. Our listen check is fairly high; 6 ranks, -1 mod, +2 racial, +2 in an object, +2 masterwork tool, +3 SF, and taking 10 gives us an automatic 24. It's an effective DC of move silently + 5 to pinpoint their location, or move silently +15 to identify their gear, and we can retry with a move action, so we can pretty consistently pinpoint creatures, and retry until we identify their gear. Technically, over about 1 minute, we can take 20, so we'd get that effective 34.
4	Factotum	-	Arcane dilettante (1 spell)	Power Word Pain is a funny technique to use at low levels when you can effectively disengage. Slap it on an enemy, sink into the ground, and listen until their cries of agony stop. Apart from that, while we may find more worth saving our inspiration for bonuses to our skill checks most of the time, the wizard list has varied enough options that some things may come in handy.
5	Factotum	-	Brains over brawn, cunning defense	We have an effective +3 to all our strength/dex-based skills here, which is nothing to scoff at. Even if we don't take 10, our SoH check is now an automatic 21.
6	Trapsmith	Master Pickpocket	Booby traps (simple), master disarmer, trap sense +1	We no longer take AOOs for trying to steal in-combat. Additionally, the check to free-action steal is lessened. As we would be rushed by attempting a free-action SoH, we may not be able to take 10; our effective bonus is +21 (masterwork tool, synergy, 9 ranks, Skill Focus, +2 dex, +3 int), so our check range will be 22-41. If we fail, the DC will rise from 30 to 40, so technically there is no downside to attempting NI free-action checks to take 20 NI times, steal all their items, and SoH them onto our person to free up our hands again. Will a reasonable DM allow NI SoH checks? Probably not, but where they draw the line will vary. At worst: we can steal two items per round with a reasonable chance of success. The RAW viability of taking NI checks might be enough to convince a DM to let you take 10 on your free-action check too, as are you really rushed if you're only making 2 checks instead of 100? Taking 10, we hit an automatic 31, so we'd be golden as long as no one noticed us. Now, in addition to stealing all their items that aren't actively being held, we can set up tripwires from underground to do various things based on 1/2 our trapmaking check (taking 10, the check is a 24). That means we can set up alarms around camp (reflex 1/2 check), a crossbows to fire (attack bonus 1/2 check), or a tripwire to literally trip (bonus is 1/2 check). The drop trap would probably require us to leave the ground to suspend the object from the ceiling, although arguably you might be able to use complicated mechanics to make a sling of sorts to launch the object into the air to fall on the target. Setting up these tripwires in between the enemy's feet should mean they trigger on any movement on their part. Lastly, we start accruing level 1 spells - some of which are touch spells we can even apply from underground. Notably, we can use Fox's Cunning and Cat's Grace, letting us pump our slight of hand by 2 - 4, bringing us up to as much as a +25.
7	Trapsmith	-	Arrow proof, quick fingers	-
8	Trapsmith	-	Booby traps (advanced), unweave, trap sense +2	Now our traps key off of our TOTAL check rather than 1/2 our check (or easily a 27 at this level).
9	Trapsmith	Practiced Spellcaster	Dance through danger, spell proof	With Cat's Grace and Fox's Cunning active, we can now hit an automatic 30 without taking 10.
10	Mindbender	-	Telepathy	We have the caster level to enter Mindbender and, ironically, we also have access to Charm Person through our Factotum levels. Now we gain an innate means to communicate the location of our traps with our allies.
11+	Exemplar	3 bonus, 3 general	Sundry	We gain a lot of bonuses to skills here. We also gain Skill Mastery, letting us take 10 on our SoH checks even when making free actions to hit the DC40 to steal from those who are watching us do it. We also gain charisma to fortitude, intelligence to reflex and initiative, and sundry other modes to use our skills, and round out our 20 levels eligible for epic progression.

[Anthrowhale]

If I understand correctly, Word Given Form would not suffer from becoming partial concealment when you attack, enabling full attack IF?

[Doctor Despair]

If I understand correctly, Word Given Form would not suffer from becoming partial concealment when you attack, enabling full attack IF?

That SHOULD work based on the conclusion we've come to. You have total concealment, so it SHOULD obviate the need for a hide check (meaning you can remain hidden while attacking), but there is one thing that I am worried about. It provides total concealment from that opponent. If there is even a second creature (not necessarily an opponent), we come up against this issue:

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

Can you choose to hide from only SOME enemies or creatures but not others? Or would the presence of another creature foil our ability to hide?

Edit: Another (non-mundane) option might be the Profane Aura feat. It's not one-sided, but it does grant total concealment for an indefinite amount of time.

Edit2: Venger suggests no.

[Gruftzwerg]

That SHOULD work based on the conclusion we've come to. You have total concealment, so it SHOULD obviate the need for a hide check (meaning you can remain hidden while attacking), but there is one thing that I am worried about. It provides total concealment from that opponent. If there is even a second creature (not necessarily an opponent), we come up against this issue:

Imho concealment is what enables you to hide in the first place (unless you have HIPS). It doesn't do anything for you when you start becoming visible while attacking other than enabling you to re-hide again (with a new roll). If you want to remain hidden you would need to take a -20 penalty to your attack. Note that the enemy is aware of your position even if he fails his spot check.

Can you choose to hide from only SOME enemies or creatures but not others? Or would the presence of another creature foil our ability to hide?

Sure as long as the conditions for those enemies you try to hide from are given.
It's the same as when you hide together with your ally/buddy from the enemies and move together. Some creatures (your buddy) are full aware where you are. Others (rest of your party) is aware that you two are there somewhere and maybe can spot you (DM might give your teammates a bonus since you don't try to actively hide from them, but from your enemies). While the enemies need win their spot/listen check to notice anything.

Back to our situation here. With concealment against a single target you could hide sole from that target (e.g to enable sneak attacks), but would be visible to others. The target is still aware in which square you are (unless you have move away somehow).

[Anthrowhale]

Sure as long as the conditions for those enemies you try to hide from are given.

Yeah, I don't see anything inconsistent with being hidden from some enemies but not others. That happens naturally with varying spotchecks. There are a few special abilities which address this like Formian Hive Mind or Axiomatic Creature Linked Minds.

W.r.t. total concealment and attacking, my understanding is that total concealment always automatically provides the hidden condition, with no check required, per the SRD quote here. Whether or not an opponent knows which square you are in doesn't seem to obviate the effect of concealment according to the rules.

[Gruftzwerg]

W.r.t. total concealment and attacking, my understanding is that total concealment always automatically provides the hidden condition, with no check required, per the SRD quote here. Whether or not an opponent knows which square you are in doesn't seem to obviate the effect of concealment according to the rules.

Concealment doesn't automatically provide the hidden status. It just provides an opportunity to hide.

Concealment and Hide Checks

You can use concealment to make a Hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Hide check.

edit:
the quote from the "hide" skill says that it produces similar results and thus a hide check might not be necessary for what you want to accomplish. But depending on the interactions in a given situation, hide and concealment may produce different results. Thus having both layers of deception can be useful. It's like Invisibility and Hide. You don't need both. But depending on the circumstances it's better if you have both.

[Anthrowhale]

Concealment doesn't automatically provide the hidden status. It just provides an opportunity to hide.

'total concealment' is a different condition from 'concealment'.

The former implies that you can't be seen, are automatically hidden (except for invisibility), and provides a 50% miss chance if someone targets the correct square.

The latter implies that you can be partially seen, have an opportunity to hide, and provides a 20% miss chance if someone targets the correct square.

[Gruftzwerg]

'total concealment' is a different condition from 'concealment'.

The former implies that you can't be seen, are automatically hidden (except for invisibility), and provides a 50% miss chance if someone targets the correct square.

The latter implies that you can be partially seen, have an opportunity to hide, and provides a 20% miss chance if someone targets the correct square.

Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

The text is just pointing out the obvious. That a hide check is not needed as long as nobody can see you anyway. But strict RAW the hide status still needs to provide a DC if you somehow should lose or leave full concealment against a target.
Hiding while nobody else is there also obviates the need for a Hide check, until someone comes in perception range. Same here. As long as you are "totally concealed" you don't need a hide check. But once you do something that breaks you concealment (e.g. reveal yourself for an attack from your concealed position) or someone pierces your concealment (e.g. magical sight) you would need a Hide check to still count as being hidden.

In the chase of Word Given Form, your total concealment doesn't thrive from your position to your enemy or the environment but from a feats special condition (dodge feat). Thus your movement and attacks don't affect your concealment status towards the target of your dodge feat and you remain unseen/hidden from him.


edit: to give an example when these kind of nitpicking is important

The Nightmare Terrain spell is a good example of this. Depending on distance it can provide concealment or total concealment. Further the caster can make hide check while inside of the effect area (basically HIPS). Now you could say a caster who has total concealment don't need to (roll) hide. But the distances towards his enemies might change after his turn or they might have some form of magical sight to counter the illusion (e.g. True Sight). Since you can only hide in your turn, it's highly recommend to make the hide check and not to skip it due to laziness.