Echo Knight 3/…then what?

[Seekergeek]

So I have this idea in my mind of what I want to do with a character and a few routes I could take to do it within the parameters of the game, but I can’t quite bring it all together. I’m replacing a bladesinger and we’re at 11, about to tip over to 12.

I’d like to play a trickster type combatant using the echo knight and it’s front-loaded features and level independent scaling as the base without going too far down the fighter path.

1) Pairing it with a bladelock build seems like a natural fit to get some gish feel and make the most of the echo. Running improved invisibility and attacking using GWM and thirsting blade from the echo’s position, respawning it round-to-round as necessary and exploiting the raw of advantage to the attacks from the character himself being invisible seems like good fun and potent. Eldritch Smite on criticals when slots allow would make for a decent single target damage build which is what our group is missing. I’ve got the stats to go with any patron I’d like and undead seems like a good fit here since I don’t need to worry about being MAD and being forced down the hexblade route (which I’m not adverse to, but not really enthusiastic about, either)

2) Trickery cleric has a lot of thematically appealing abilities and having the echo along with a duplicate from channel divinity would be fun however there are not very many mechanical synergies there. I’d need help figuring out how this would work best.

3) Arcane Trickster would also pair well, particularly with shadow blade and the sentinel feat giving me lots of potential opportunities for a reaction attack and a second chance at sneak attack in any given round, which again would be great for our party which currently lacks that.

I don’t need anything even remotely optimized - it’s not that kind of table, but a few notches above “workable” would be my preference.

[kazaryu]

So I have this idea in my mind of what I want to do with a character and a few routes I could take to do it within the parameters of the game, but I can’t quite bring it all together. I’m replacing a bladesinger and we’re at 11, about to tip over to 12.

I’d like to play a trickster type combatant using the echo knight and it’s front-loaded features and level independent scaling as the base without going too far down the fighter path.

1) Pairing it with a bladelock build seems like a natural fit to get some gish feel and make the most of the echo. Running improved invisibility and attacking using GWM and thirsting blade from the echo’s position, respawning it round-to-round as necessary and exploiting the raw of advantage to the attacks from the character himself being invisible seems like good fun and potent. Eldritch Smite on criticals when slots allow would make for a decent single target damage build which is what our group is missing. I’ve got the stats to go with any patron I’d like and undead seems like a good fit here since I don’t need to worry about being MAD and being forced down the hexblade route (which I’m not adverse to, but not really enthusiastic about, either)

2) Trickery cleric has a lot of thematically appealing abilities and having the echo along with a duplicate from channel divinity would be fun however there are not very many mechanical synergies there. I’d need help figuring out how this would work best.

3) Arcane Trickster would also pair well, particularly with shadow blade and the sentinel feat giving me lots of potential opportunities for a reaction attack and a second chance at sneak attack in any given round, which again would be great for our party which currently lacks that.

I don’t need anything even remotely optimized - it’s not that kind of table, but a few notches above “workable” would be my preference.

well...ideally if you want to play a martial character, your best bet is to at least go for extra attack, and the only option you currently have on the table that does that is bladelock. but 2 extra levels in fighter also gets in, and an ASI. so a 5/6 split starting out eventually climbing to a 5/15 (if the game goes that long) might be in the cards. you could still go warlock, but would no longer be encouraged to take thirsting blade. and if you decide to go rogue you'll get a consistent extra attack, since your BA might be too busy for two weapon fighting, certainly too busy for TWF to happen consistently.

if you want to go trickery style with casting, then i definitely wouldn't go cleric. i mean, sure it has the name, but limited actual 'trickery' spells. sorcerer would allow you to BA cast some illusion spells (when you're not using your BA to summon your echo). or twin certain spells, like phantasmal force (obvious disclaimer that illusion spells are highly DM dependent). obviously the downside of going echo knight 5 is that you'll have to wait a level to get greater invis.

[loki_ragnarock]

I'd echo (heh) the observation that extra attack is actually pretty neat.

But.

My vote here would be for Trickery Cleric. It's entirely dependent on your DM as to how useful a "perfect" illusionary copy is, but there's a certain madcap fun to being able to attack from over *here* while casting spells from over *there* while actually standing in some third location. The Trickery spell list is actually pretty great; disguise self lets you run around as some other bloke causing trouble, leaving you free to continue with your sterling reputation. Pass Without Trace lets you glide through stealth encounters even when wearing heavy armor, while Blessings of the Trickster lets you help out the other dude with heavy armor. Always prepared Dispel Magic makes you delightfully annoying to casting opponents, Dimension Door makes you entirely too difficult to pin down, Dominate Person swings encounters wildly in your favor sometimes: it's a good, good spell list. And in many ways better than Sorcerer since your bonus prepared spells from the subclass rival the total number of spells known for a Sorcerer. Using your alt channel divinity to vanish while manifesting two copies of yourself is also kind of hilarious. The divine strike is the weakest of all clerics, but still synergizes with those fightery levels by giving you a decent weapon attack.

Optimal? Eh, probably not. But I think it'd be the most fun.

[Bobthewizard]

I love the idea of echo knight 5/ trickery cleric X. I never considered it, but I love all the flavor described above and agree that Trickery gets the best subclass spells. Plus spirit guardians is a great spell for an echo knight. Place the echo next to the enemy, then once they waste an attack to get past the echo, they still have difficult terrain and damage to get to you.

[DarknessEternal]

3) Arcane Trickster would also pair well, particularly with shadow blade and the sentinel feat giving me lots of potential opportunities for a reaction attack and a second chance at sneak attack in any given round, which again would be great for our party which currently lacks that.

Sentinel cares about you. You are not your echo. Echo Knight has no synergy with Sentinel.

[Kane0]

Well Warlock gets at will illusions via an invocation too, thats a good thematic match. You dont strictly need to use it to attack eother, you can EB spam and just have it soak attacks and provide you teleports.

[Seekergeek]

Sentinel cares about you. You are not your echo. Echo Knight has no synergy with Sentinel.

I don’t think I follow. If I’m standing side by side with the echo, the sentinel feat applies just fine if they attack the echo.

[kazaryu]

Sentinel cares about you. You are not your echo. Echo Knight has no synergy with Sentinel.

you can OA from your echo, which would proc sentinal. and as OP pointed out, someone attacking the echo, if its adjacent, would allow the echo knight to attack. it actually has...full synergy with echo knight

[Bobthewizard]

Sentinel has 3 parts, some of which work with an echo.

1. When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn

This works either for you, or for the echo when you make your AOO for them moving more than 5' away from the echo.

2. Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.

This works for you but not the echo, since it says 'leaving your reach.' The echo doesn't have reach.

3. When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.

This works for you if they attack the echo since the echo is a target. But if they attack you, the echo can't make this attack since they are not attacking 'a target other than you.'

[claypigeons]

The best follow up to echo knight 3 is 17 more levels of echo knight. It's a great subclass that makes the fighter chassis able to *do* things.

[loki_ragnarock]

The best follow up to echo knight 3 is 17 more levels of echo knight. It's a great subclass that makes the fighter chassis able to *do* things.

This is the inherent trouble of trying to multiclass out of fighter in general; there's always something pretty good just one level away.

[Sherlockpwns]

Assuming you don't want to go multi-attack, I actually think building around Booming Blade for your default action is a great synergy for 3 levels of Echo (I'd consider a later 4th level for the ASI). While it won't quite keep up with a pure fighter single target, Echo gives you one of the easiest ways to ensure you're not adjacent to the enemy at the end of your turn, and it WILL out damage the fighter if they trigger the rider.

It's obviously best if you want to take this in the casting direction (Cleric) or the Rogue (Since you can also deal sneak damage with this). It does mean you may not use Unleash very often (if ever).

That said, I'll go in a completely different direction:

Armorer Artificer.

Since you're already level 11 and about to be 12, I'll lay out roughly how I'd do this:

Default Action

Thunder Gauntlets. With the help of your Echo it will be even easier to tag two enemies and force them to have disadvantage unless they attack you. You also become SAD, making it pretty easy to focus on INT & CON. Your damage will be poor, but you'll make up for it in mitigating damage elsewhere.

I'd also take Booming...gauntlets as one of the cantrips in any situation where you only have 1 target. This makes it doubly painful if they want to come after you.

Spells & Abilities
I'd actually avoid most of the combat spells and focus on out of combat utility. Don't get me wrong, bring along a web spell and absorb elements and whatever floats your boat, but think of the utility of things like Invisibility, Spider Climb.

Infusions (And Skills)
This is what actually makes this class combo fun. Lots of options here, but again I'd consider shying away from combat abilities a bit (Of course grab a magic shield / armor if the campaign isn't providing that).

Since you want to be sneaky-like...

Cloak of Elvenkind
Gloves of Thievery
And if you don't need that extra AC consider something fun like a rope of climbing

The big change happens when you hit level 9, as you'll gain two more infusions (for your armor), and 10 when you'll get even more powerful items.

This means even in heavy armor you'll have straight rolls on stealth (or go medium and get advantage) and your thieves tools (which you can get expertise on) will have a huge bonus as well.

Race

Oddly last, but I'd just go with whatever you want with bonus points for anything with bonus move speed since you'll want to be playing keepaway a bit (possibly even at the expense of your echo going poof).

[Sillybird99]

Echo Knight to 5 is a good move. Picking up Barbarian 2 for rage and reckless and the paladin 2 for some healing, fighting style and smites before finishing fighter seems pretty strong if you have the CHA and especially with GWM. It's not very 'tricky' but based on playing an echo, I think your bonus action features from the duplicity or cunning action would be in huge competition with the echo mechanics.

[Spiritchaser]

Echo Knight to 5 is a good move. Picking up Barbarian 2 for rage and reckless and the paladin 2 for some healing, fighting style and smites before finishing fighter seems pretty strong if you have the CHA and especially with GWM. It's not very 'tricky' but based on playing an echo, I think your bonus action features from the duplicity or cunning action would be in huge competition with the echo mechanics.

Not sure about the Paladin, but mixing echo knight with ancestral guardian is terrifyingly effective against single tough foes.

[carrdrivesyou]

Hear me out here...Take the rest in Shadow Monk. Grab the Eldritch Adept feat to get Devil's Sight.

Round 1: Spend 2 Ki points to cast Darkness as an Action. Use Bonus Action to Manifest your Echo.
Round 2+: Move into enemy space, deliver a boatload of attacks from 2 different directions.
Overall: Enjoy advantage on your attacks while putting the enemy at disadvantage, if they can determine which direction the attacks are coming from.

Also, You could just stand behind your Echo and let them take the hits while you just keep manifesting it while they stumble around looking for you.

You also get an escape plan with Shadow Step. So long as you stay within 30ft of your Echo, you can keep sending it in to fight.

You also get nifty spells like Minor Illusion (arguably a top 5 cantrip), Pass Without Trace for stealth, and Silence to shut down spellcasters.

Congratulations, you are now a legitimate ghost in the darkness.

[DarknessEternal]

Not sure about the Paladin, but mixing echo knight with ancestral guardian is terrifyingly effective against single tough foes.

For all 3 of your Rages per day? Pass.

[stoutstien]

This is the inherent trouble of trying to multiclass out of fighter in general; there's always something pretty good just one level away.

Until lv 12 then it really depends on subclass.

[Seekergeek]

Hear me out here...Take the rest in Shadow Monk.

SNIP

Congratulations, you are now a legitimate ghost in the darkness.

Oooh. Neat idea. I could take the unarmed fighting style to offset the delay in unarmed strike's progression, too. I'd have to check but I think it is a long while before a monk's unarmed strike tops a d8.

[Bobthewizard]

Hear me out here...Take the rest in Shadow Monk. Grab the Eldritch Adept feat to get Devil's Sight.

Neither echo knight nor shadow monk have the spellcasting feature. You'd need to take a level in something else in order to be eligible to take Eldritch adept, since it has the spellcasting feature as a prerequisite

For all 3 of your Rages per day? Pass.

Reckless attack is the main draw of this multiclass and it is unlimited. Ancestral guardian is just a little gravy on top of that for one extra level.

[Spiritchaser]

For all 3 of your Rages per day? Pass.

You know, I really don’t find this to be a limit. With sentinel and reckless attack at range, you can cover off most encounters and 3 rages is plenty for the boss, and one or two other harder fights, or maybe save one as a panic button you probably don’t need.

I find that echo knight/ ancestral guardian is hoard limited far more than it is rage limited (though with your debuff applied when raging these are not totally separate). Encounter specific terrain notwithstanding, your capacity to control more than one or two foes at a time is only a bit better than the average martial, and only because you can (at least to a degree) control two spaces at once (debuffing one and snagging one more without sentinel may also be an option sometimes)

That said there are not a great many pure martials that excel at multi target control