Can you see into Hunger of Hadar?

[nickl_2000]

You are blinded if you are inside of Hunger of Hadar and it absorbs all light.

Can someone one the outside of HoH see someone inside it?

[Psyren]

It's a sphere of blackness so I'd say no. (And not to mix physics and D&D, but if it's suppressing all light in the area, then no light inside is getting bounced back to your retinas, ergo no vision.)

[Abracadangit]

Yeah, gonna agree with Psyren. "No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area..." sounds like people on the outside can't see in.

Now how does that interact with darkvision/Devil's Sight? A little more up in the air -- it's interesting how darkness explicitly calls out that it trumps darkvision, but hunger doesn't. I'd probably say "darkvision can't see through it, but Devil's Sight can," but I'd also be understanding if a DM had their own ruling.

[Amnestic]

Crawford has said that devil's sight (and darkvision, by extension) doesn't work on the Hunger of Hadar while you're outside of it. My explanation: It's not an area solely with the absence of light, it's an area filled with "blackness", opaque much as Fog Cloud is.

[KorvinStarmast]

Crawford has said that devil's sight (and darkvision, by extension) doesn't work on the Hunger of Hadar while you're outside of it. My explanation: It's not an area solely with the absence of light, it's an area filled with "blackness", opaque much as Fog Cloud is.

That's how we have played it. Works fine.

[SociopathFriend]

Crawford has said that devil's sight (and darkvision, by extension) doesn't work on the Hunger of Hadar while you're outside of it. My explanation: It's not an area solely with the absence of light, it's an area filled with "blackness", opaque much as Fog Cloud is.

Oh really? Blindfighting Style just became that little bit more attractive then.

[Millstone85]

My explanation: It's not an area solely with the absence of light, it's an area filled with "blackness", opaque much as Fog Cloud is.

That would align well with the 4e lore on Hadar.

From what I gather, Hadar is a star entity, once most luminous but now a red ember, that has long been in the process of being eaten by another entity, the dark nebula Ihbar (Dragon#366 p18). In turn, a star spawn called the Herald of Hadar sometimes appears in the world and "feasts on life energy, channeling it back to its creator in an effort to avert its demise" (4e MM2 p196).

In 5e, VGtM mentions Hadar as one of the star entities that neogi enter pacts with, so maybe the old lore holds up and hunger of Hadar connects an area to the eternal struggle between two great old ones, one of which is made of space fog.

Not the most responsible spell to cast.

[nickl_2000]

That would align well with the 4e lore on Hadar.

From what I gather, Hadar is a star entity, once most luminous but now a red ember, that has long been in the process of being eaten by another entity, the dark nebula Ihbar (Dragon#366 p18). In turn, a star spawn called the Herald of Hadar sometimes appears in the world and "feasts on life energy, channeling it back to its creator in an effort to avert its demise" (4e MM2 p196).

In 5e, VGtM mentions Hadar as one of the star entities that neogi enter pacts with, so maybe the old lore holds up and hunger of Hadar connects an area to the eternal struggle between two great old ones, one of which is made of space fog.

Not the most responsible spell to cast.

To be fair, neither is a Fireball. How many forest and towns have been destroyed by the fire from a poorly aimed Fireball?

[Ugmaro]

To be fair, neither is a Fireball. How many forest and towns have been destroyed by the fire from a poorly aimed Fireball?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsGvGGKshjI Enjoy the weather :)

[Mastikator]

RAI Devil's sight should not let you see into or through Hunger of Hadar, so sayeth Jeremy Crawford

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/...044544?lang=en

RAW it's a bit unclear, but if RAW is unclear and RAI is explicit then I err on the side of RAI.

[Psyren]

Crawford has said that devil's sight (and darkvision, by extension) doesn't work on the Hunger of Hadar while you're outside of it. My explanation: It's not an area solely with the absence of light, it's an area filled with "blackness", opaque much as Fog Cloud is.

Works for me.

Not the most responsible spell to cast.

Yeah, Warlocks are definitely known for their prudence and responsibility

[Millstone85]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsGvGGKshjI Enjoy the weather :)

That's also one of the terrible jobs to have in the Pokémon universe.

Yeah, Warlocks are definitely known for their prudence and responsibility

I am just saying, this deserves to be their most iconic spell after eldritch blast.

[Habber_Dasher]

This is one of my D&D pet peeves. I would argue that by RAW and, at least at one point, RAI anybody with darkvision can see though HoH. Yes the sphere is described as "blackness" but also as "the dark between the stars". What it doesn't say is "heavy obscurement" which is the term every other spell effect that you can't see in or out of uses. If the term "blackness" is supposed to denote something like heavy obscurement, then why bother describing how light can't illuminate the area, or why on earth give creatures inside the area the blinded condition? If the HoH essentially creates heavy obscurement, that totally negates the effects of blinded. It just makes no sense why it would be written that way unless creatures inside the area weren't meant to see out of it, but creatures outside were meant to perhaps to still see in.

And it's not like this would make HoH OP or anything. It would be more or less on par with other third level spells like hypnotic pattern, fear, fireball, etc.

[Psyren]

Actually I agree - if they want the sphere to be heavy obscurement they should just say so.

[Witty Username]

Do you Want to see into a Hunger of Hadar?

[Ugmaro]

That's also one of the terrible jobs to have in the Pokémon universe.

I love that :)

Do you Want to see into a Hunger of Hadar?

Me? No. PCs on the other hand... half of them are absolute psychos so probably yes. To illustrate my point: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html

[Chronos]

What annoys me is that this is an iconic spell and an iconic ability, from the same class, both in the Player's Handbook. Of course this question is going to come up, and they should have known that it would come up. Why the heck isn't it explicitly clear right in the rules?

[Millstone85]

Meh, it would still be a mess even if the spell used the term heavy obscurement. A big problem with 5e vision rules is that obscurement is used to describe both lighting and opacity, even though those should obviously not work the same.

[Mitchellnotes]

I really want to say that it would function like the darkness spell and allow devil's sight to work... but... that would be wildly good. As is, its a huge area, does decent damage and blinds. Giving advantage to hit things in it would just be too much. I do wish it scaled even a little bit though.

[greenstone]

Yes the sphere is described as "blackness" but also as "the dark between the stars".

In my games, it is not "the dark between the stars."

It is "the Dark between the stars."

No mortal eye can pierce it. The unfathomable Blackness and Dread overcomes the senses and the brain.

Unless you are a mind flayer. Not that my players have tried the spell on a mind flayer yet. The poor fools.

[nickl_2000]

In my games, it is not "the dark between the stars."

It is "the Dark between the stars."

No mortal eye can pierce it. The unfathomable Blackness and Dread overcomes the senses and the brain.

Unless you are a mind flayer. Not that my players have tried the spell on a mind flayer yet. The poor fools.

Is there a bit of lore here I don't know about? Or both being eldritch horrors?

[greenstone]

Is there a bit of lore here I don't know about? Or both being eldritch horrors?

Mind flayers (like many other abberrations) originally come from the Far Realms. Or possibly their creator comes from the Far Realms.

So, in my games they are generally not affected by those sort of spells and effects. A mind flayer in the area of a hunger of hadar is comforted, not damaged.

[werescythe]

Now it should be noted that if you do want to "see" inside your Hunger of Hadar, there is one thing that will work (I'm pretty sure), that being the Blind Fighting Fighting Style. Sure you literally would have to be within 10ft or inside it to "see" inside HoH, but the blind sight would at least make it easier for you to deal damage/move around inside if you wanted to.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Now I feel as though looking into a HoH with "Truesight" should drive you insane! :P

[Segev]

The RAW actually seem clear to me, but I won't argue with people who disagree, at least not too strenuously. It says "filled with blackness," which is like saying "filled with fog" or "filled with lava" or anything else: "blackness" is opaque. It is what "ink blot magical darkness" looks like to those who lack Devil's Sight, and it importantly doesn't say "magical darkness" anywhere in the spell.


What bugs me about it is that it refers to "the darkness between the stars," which...actually should be entirely transparent (as regular, nonmagical darkness is), providing only as much obscurement as magical darkness would, at most. But the text is clear: it's "filled with blackness," not merely "magically dark."

[Millstone85]

What bugs me about it is that it refers to "the darkness between the stars," which...actually should be entirely transparent

Alternatively, from a typical Spelljammer perspective, the dark part of the firmament should be not only opaque but also rock solid.

Either way, you could work in the 4e lore I previously mentioned.

Hadar: Hadar is the extinguished cinder of a star lurking within the cloaking nebula of Ihbar.
Ihbar: A dark nebula between stars, Ihbar is slowly expanding and eating the light of neighboring constellations.

It is not just the dark between the stars but, like, the big eldritch cloud known as the Dark Between the Stars.

Or you could go "Look, you summon space tentacles, you get space cephalopod ink".

[Burley]

Light has to bounce off of *Object* and then travel to an eye for *Object* to be seen. Illuminating something means providing light to bounce off *Object.*
If the spell stops all illumination, there's nothing to bounce off of *Object* and into an eye, so, nothing within the spell effect is visible, from within or without.

[Chronos]

Light has to bounce off of *Object* and then travel to an eye for *Object* to be seen.

With normal sight, sure. It's clear, by any interpretation, that normal sight can't see into Hunger of Hadar. But in D&D, there are forms of "vision" which clearly don't require light bouncing off of an object, like normal darkvision, or the even better darkvision granted by Devil's Sight.