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2021-11-24, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2020
Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
I'm currently writing the Backstory for a Campaign that will include Vestiges at some point. Chances are high that these Vestiges will play a big Role in the Campaign. I've read Tome of Magic, but am still uncertain about some aspects of Vestige Lore, so I'd greatly appreciate if someone would take the time to clarify some things for me. I'd prefere answers using only 3.5 books, but using Dragon Magazine is ok if nothing else is available.
What exactly does a Vestige know about a Binder that is trying to bind it?
Since Amon refuses to answer a Binders call if they have been hosting some specific other Vestiges in the last 24 hours, he needs to have some way of knowing if the Binder has hosted those Vestiges. Is there any Information about what exactly a Vestige knows about its potential Binder? Can those Informations be hidden from the Vestige?
Is there a way to resurect a Vestige?
Since some Vestiges are remains of ordinary mortals (Andras, Aym, Eligor ...) I wonder if there is a way to bring them back to life? Take Eligor as an example: He became is Vestige because he died without any deity claming his soul. He did not die of old age, but I assume his Body has been lost. Could he be resurrected by using True Resurrection (assuming he has died recently) or one or more Miracles/Wishes? I'd assume that this is not the case, since Tome of Magic states that Vestiges "have been divorced from normal reality by some extraordinary means, they can return to it only by binding themselves to other souls", but I'm certain that someone will try to resurrect one at some point, so I want to make sure this isn't possible.
Can a Binder and his bound Vestige communicate?
Tome of Magic explicitly states that some Vestiges communicate with a Binder before they bind, but is somewhat unclear as to what happens after the binding. Am I missing something? I'd assume Binder and Vestige should be able to communicate freely? Bonus Question: If Binder and Vestige can communicate, could multiple Binders that bind to the same Vestige use that for communication, provided the Vestige is willing to help them? I don't see anything forbidding it ...
How many Binders can bind the same Vestige and does doing so affect anything?
Tome of Magic states that "In some cases, the same vestige might make separate but simultaneous pacts with two binders who are in direct conflict with one another", so a Vestige can be bound to more then one Binder at the same time. Is there a limit? Can a Vestige run out of power when binding to too many Binders at once?
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2021-11-24, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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- Sub-Prime Material Plane
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Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
W.r.t. these questions... Deities can get a power literally called "Alter Reality." A lot of what deities can do varies from sourcebook to sourcebook, but I'd think it would be within their power to resurrect a Vestige if they really wanted to. That could be a plothook for a high-level campaign maybe: to try to force a deity to do this, as mortal magic cannot. Additionally, Vestiges' influence on a Binder would be their way of "communicating," I'd think. Some vestiges are very vocal about what they want, but they don't ask; they just force you to do what they want.
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2021-11-24, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2020
Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
Vestiges are described in Tome of Magic as "beyond the reach of the gods" (p. 9), so I assume that a God can't influence a Vestige in any way.
Additionally, Vestiges' influence on a Binder would be their way of "communicating," I'd think. Some vestiges are very vocal about what they want, but they don't ask; they just force you to do what they want.
I thought about the Influence of a Vestige - and if there is any Vestige whose Influence implies communication - but I haven't found anything that makes communication necessary. The Influences seem to mostly be character alterations, not direct commands that require communication.
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2021-11-24, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
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- Massa, Italy
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Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
Maybe Arete has something of comunication as it says that insists which means some way to comunicate I think?
Finally my computer is without any problem!
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2021-11-24, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Germany
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Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
Those sound like questions for Afroakuma's Planar and Other Oddities Questions Thread. I will try to answer them as well as I can.
For most of those questions you'll wait forever if you insist on answers from a book instead of extrapolations. Vestiges don't get a lot of lore beyond the ToM.
What exactly does a Vestige know about a Binder that is trying to bind it?
Since Amon refuses to answer a Binders call if they have been hosting some specific other Vestiges in the last 24 hours, he needs to have some way of knowing if the Binder has hosted those Vestiges. Is there any Information about what exactly a Vestige knows about its potential Binder? Can those Informations be hidden from the Vestige?
Is there a way to resurect a Vestige?
Since some Vestiges are remains of ordinary mortals (Andras, Aym, Eligor ...) I wonder if there is a way to bring them back to life? Take Eligor as an example: He became is Vestige because he died without any deity claming his soul. He did not die of old age, but I assume his Body has been lost. Could he be resurrected by using True Resurrection (assuming he has died recently) or one or more Miracles/Wishes? I'd assume that this is not the case, since Tome of Magic states that Vestiges "have been divorced from normal reality by some extraordinary means, they can return to it only by binding themselves to other souls", but I'm certain that someone will try to resurrect one at some point, so I want to make sure this isn't possible.
The highlights are:
Originally Posted by afroakumaOriginally Posted by afroakumaOriginally Posted by TzardokCan a Binder and his bound Vestige communicate?
Tome of Magic explicitly states that some Vestiges communicate with a Binder before they bind, but is somewhat unclear as to what happens after the binding. Am I missing something? I'd assume Binder and Vestige should be able to communicate freely? Bonus Question: If Binder and Vestige can communicate, could multiple Binders that bind to the same Vestige use that for communication, provided the Vestige is willing to help them? I don't see anything forbidding it ...
How many Binders can bind the same Vestige and does doing so affect anything?
Tome of Magic states that "In some cases, the same vestige might make separate but simultaneous pacts with two binders who are in direct conflict with one another", so a Vestige can be bound to more then one Binder at the same time. Is there a limit? Can a Vestige run out of power when binding to too many Binders at once?Last edited by Tzardok; 2021-11-27 at 03:31 PM.
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2021-11-24, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
Vestige
noun
a trace of something that is disappearing or no longer exists.
With that in mind, I see vestiges as way less aware than divine avatars. They exist thanks to some great power, that is no more, and they want to perceive the world again in any form hence pact magic.
They probably get the faintest of signals from the binder in question kinda like portfolio sense, if the vestige has strong enough ideals/grudges and the binder can't overpower that (represented by Ignore Special Requirements [feat]) they could refuse to lend their power.
Is there a way to resurect a Vestige?
Can a Binder and his bound Vestige communicate?
When bound the only form of communication is their influence, is abstract, unlike a deity aware of their worshippers they probably can't really see what's happening aroun the binder.
How many Binders can bind the same Vestige and does doing so affect anything?
Tome of Magic states that "In some cases, the same vestige might make separate but simultaneous pacts with two binders who are in direct conflict with one another", so a Vestige can be bound to more then one Binder at the same time. Is there a limit? Can a Vestige run out of power when binding to too many Binders at once?
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2021-11-24, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2020
Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
Uh, nice. Sorry, I did not know of this thread.
For most of those questions you'll wait forever if you insist on answers from a book instead of extrapolations. Vestiges don't get a lot of lore beyond the ToM.
As vestiges are bound into the soul, I would assume that they have some way of discerning the pactmaker's soul. Bound vestiges likely leave some kind of impression in the soul even after they leave (that would square with the fears witchhunters and clerics have about binders) which allows Amon to see that you were in contact with his enemies. Other traits of the soul that vestiges could conceivably perceive are alignment and wether somebody is a warlock or has an essentia score.
Regarding the hiding information thing: as we have no idea what mechanism vestiges use for their perception, we can't have any idea how to fool it. Simply casting Misdirection propably won't be enough.
I think I'll go with "can't hide your soul from a Vestige".
Nice thoughts ... although a bit over the top. Maybe I'd go with that idea if someone wants to resurrect a greater God that has become a Vestige, but Vestiges that originally were mere mortals should not cause cosmic disturbances when revived imho. However I'll keep those posts in mind should the Campaign come to the point where someone might want to resurrect a Vestige.
I don't see anything in the book that allows communication between the vestige and the binder outside the calling ritual.
The book doesn't mention a limit for the vestige, nor does it have any "Your vestige doesn't answer because it has been bound to too many people" mechanic, so I'll go with no limit.
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2021-11-24, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Germany
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Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
Didn't mean to critizise you. Just trying to rise awareness; we sometimes don't get a lot of questioners.
Given the "Impression in the Soul"-thing: Maybe a Lich, whose Souls is in his Phylactery far away? Possibly even on another Plane? But could he even bind a Vestige that way?
Afroakuma at least assumes that liches can bind, as his headcanon includes that the Serpent that taught Vecna is a vestige bound by him. That would also answer the "can vestiges communicate with their binders?" I mean, how could the Serpent whisper secrets to Vecna if not at least some vestiges could that?
Nice thoughts ... although a bit over the top. Maybe I'd go with that idea if someone wants to resurrect a greater God that has become a Vestige, but Vestiges that originally were mere mortals should not cause cosmic disturbances when revived imho. However I'll keep those posts in mind should the Campaign come to the point where someone might want to resurrect a Vestige.
Raising a dead god is provably a lot less harmful to reality.Last edited by Tzardok; 2021-11-24 at 07:09 PM.
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2021-11-25, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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- UK
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Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
Personally I tend to think of Vestiges as less actual creatures or intelligences, and more after-echoes of things that no longer are.
They are more like a photograph or an image that somehow got left behind when the original was erased from the universe - but this image includes some emotions and motivations; so for me they are incapable of true communication because they aren't something really capable of it, but sometimes it can seem as if they are...
This, of course, makes returning one to life a whole load more complex as the vestige isn't the repository of the "soul". It might be fairly easy to return a creature that left a vestige to life if you can find out how, and it might not involve the actual vestige (it might not even stop it from being bind-able).
The flip side is that if you do "restore" the vestige to life it will cause major upheavals in the universe because in effect you have restored the wrong thing...
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2021-11-25, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore
this is how I've always envisioned them in my setting, and it's much more in keeping with the name "vestige". In my setting, they're the the remnants of souls that were devoured by a dragon, essentially the "pieces" left over when the dragon didn't quite manage to get the whole thing.
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
The new Quick Vestige List
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2021-11-25, 05:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Germany
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Re: Questions about Interactions with Vestiges / Vestige Lore