Hawkeye

[Thrudd]

If the kids at the diner in Endgame are any indication, Scott has pretty much zero name recognition. It’s hard to make a rep when you’re tiny.

The general public probably knows that there’s a really big guy in a red suit who’s appeared randomly a couple of times—Leipzig, San Fran—but they probably think he’s “Uber-Man” or something. Scott isn’t really a professional hero, he’s more of a clueless amateur who keeps getting roped into things.



Not sure about that. Yelena has high-level information skills, but even she was badly mistaken about what really happened to Natasha. Most likely misinformation rules the day, and no one really knows anything.

They at least know broad strokes. In Wandavision, a character that would have no reason to know any details knows exactly what happened to Wanda and Vision in the battle with Thanos. Surely this sort of things is just convenience for the script, to remind viewers without flashbacks, but if we try to explain this with in-world logic, we'd have to surmise that somebody who was there gave the world a very detailed and fairly accurate account of things. Maybe Rogers himself.

[runeghost]

I think the only thing I didn't believe during the finale was

Spoiler: Yelena and Natasha

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that Yelena didn't believe that Natasha would sacrifice herself to save half the universe. She KNOWS Natasha is a big hero and an Avenger, and she at least knows about half the people being blipped. I guess the details about getting the Soul Stone haven't been revealed, but does she really not believe her sister would sacrifice herself for the greater good?

Spoiler: Spoily Response

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She did believe it. She just didn't want to admit that she did right when Clint first hit her with it. Yelena was after Clint because ithat was how she was resolving her pain at the loss of Nat. It took her a little time to come to terms with the reality when she was presented with it, which is very human.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
[T'Challa] put his entire kingdom on the line to stop Thanos, I’m counting him. If he’s not ‘officially’ on the Avengers roll, it’s a paperwork thing not because he isn’t in the same tier as far as powers, responsibilities etc.

There’s no question he’s of the same heroic caliber as any of the Avengers, but he’s not in their organization. He works alone, and with a very different set of priorities.

Black Panther is unique in the MCU in that he's both hero and a head of state, which means his formal responsibilities are exclusively to that state. He may work with the Avengers on occasion, but there's always the potential for him to oppose them if he feels their actions are against Wakandan interests. He may certainly be Avengers-grade, but as presented in the MCU he's by definition outside their organization.

Originally Posted by Thrudd
They at least know broad strokes.

The public certainly knows something about Thanos, given the slogan on Clint’s mug in one scene.

But I’d expect that the facts have been smothered by misinformation and conspiracy theories of every kind, especially in the early post-Snap world where people were doing all they could to keep things from completely falling apart. There are probably cults devoted to calling Thanos back to life, and also probably guys in homemade Ronin costumes running around with machetes "just in case" Thanos returns.

Originally Posted by runeghost

Spoiler: Y.

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She did believe it. She just didn't want to admit that she did right when Clint first hit her with it. Yelena was after Clint because ithat was how she was resolving her pain at the loss of Nat. It took her a little time to come to terms with the reality when she was presented with it, which is very human.

I think this is a solid read, and probably what the writers were going for.

But for me, the problem is…

Spoiler: Y. & K.

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…I just don’t care about Yelena. She’s supposed to be Black Widow Mark II, but I hold the view that Widow was unique and shouldn’t be copied. And nothing about Yelena makes me want to change that view.

Over the course of the Hawkeye series, I’ve very slightly warmed to Kate Bishop, because she does show a bit of growth—even beyond the highly contrived silliness of arresting her mother, etc. She is still a very, very junior partner for Clint, but she’s visibly lost some of her breezy entitlement, so there’s a mote of promise there.

Yelena…just doesn’t make me feel anything for her, apart from irritation and a wish that she would dive into Lake Baikal and hibernate at the bottom for the next thousand years. That’s all I want from her character.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

There’s no question he’s of the same heroic caliber as any of the Avengers, but he’s not in their organization. He works alone, and with a very different set of priorities.

Black Panther is unique in the MCU in that he's both hero and a head of state, which means his formal responsibilities are exclusively to that state. He may work with the Avengers on occasion, but there's always the potential for him to oppose them if he feels their actions are against Wakandan interests. He may certainly be Avengers-grade, but as presented in the MCU he's by definition outside their organization.

But the topic was whether or not the superheroes in question had family or friends outside of other superheroes so…not sure what point you’re trying to make?

[Talakeal]

Kate and Yelena have great chemistry, I am looking forward to them teaming up in a future iteration of the Avengers.


The show as overall good, but the finale seemed kind of, disjointed maybe? Too many threads that never really tied together.


Can anyone explain what was happening from the villain’s perspective? I expected some sort of big reveal that explained the whole plot, but I am still kind of clueless as to what motivated the whole attacking the auction and murdering Armand inciting incident. Was Jack a total red herring and was really just the clueless nice guy that he appeared to be?

[Ramza00]

We do not know why the tracksuit mafia wanted the watch. Was this a plot of Maya, Kingpin, someone else, etc?

We do know Clint and Laura feared the Shield Watch with a number 19 could be used for something. Like a personal identification at a place of a previous event, perhaps a crime, or it could be a technological token such as a key / two factor identification with something secret like shield stuff. Lots of possibilities here, we do not know, places where future stories may pick it up.

*shrug* it may never be fully explained or it may be explained in a future story.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Talakeal
Was Jack a total red herring and was really just the clueless nice guy that he appeared to be?

Spoiler: Jack

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I wouldn't call him "nice," since he was arrogant and uber-entitled, but it does seem as if he was set up without having committed anything other than acute condescension.

And yes, definitely a little jumbled at the end. I'm wondering if they tried to shoehorn Yelena into things fairly late in the development process--that would explain a lot.

[BRC]

Spoiler: Jack

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Jack is the MCU version of Jacques Duquesne, AKA The Swordsman, a supervillain thief turned Avenger. In the comics, he was one of the people who trained Hawkeye back in his circus origin story.


Here, he just seems to be a rich idiot who is good with swords.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: Jack

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I wouldn't call him "nice," since he was arrogant and uber-entitled, but it does seem as if he was set up without having committed anything other than acute condescension.

And yes, definitely a little jumbled at the end. I'm wondering if they tried to shoehorn Yelena into things fairly late in the development process--that would explain a lot.

Jack was Clueless

Spoiler: But was he nice?

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Yes he was arrogant and Uber entitled. But the entitled part occurred with toxic family members who are older than him, and younger than him.

Yet with strangers such as Kate and the Larpers we see a different side of Jack. Jack was trying his best to make a first impression by reading a book, and playing swords with Kate. He was ascribing his personal feelings in order to create a positive emotional atmosphere. Of course this helps with some people, but other people distrust it and it backfired with Kate. Likewise he was cordial and respectful with the LARPers even though due to class reasons he did not understand other peoples sentiments, relations, and inner life. But Jack was trying his best yet was clueless, this is one of the reason he messes up idioms, for he lacked either experience or insight.

We do not have enough data points. But from our limited impressions I can see a possibility of Jack being nice. Of course there is other possibilities simultaneously (uncertainty / ambiguity) for we have limited data points. I am curious how many minutes of screen time did we get of Jack over all 6 episodes.

[Tyndmyr]

In the MCU the greater public really believed Scott Lang was at the battle of New York even though this is incorrect.

Strictly speaking, he kind of was, thanks to the time heist. He's part of the team in the Battle of New York....which Hawkeye would know, having also participated in the time heist.

This is kind of pedantic, but it results in the greater public's image of the fight not being wholly wrong...at least not in that way. It certainly appears as if many liberties were taken in general.

[Lizard Lord]

Not sure I buy that. They’re part of one specific caper, but not really part of the team.

As for Okoye, she was in Endgame briefly in the holo-conference, not long before Scott arrived. Captain Marvel was in the same conference, but I don’t think anyone would call her an Avenger (ironically enough), so not convinced Okoye is either.

What is your definition of an Avenger in the MCU? The time heist had all the original Avengers as part of it and the members of that heist all used an Avengers base for their pre-mission briefing and planning. Not to mention they are all important protagonists in an Avengers movie. And all of them got matching uniforms (which, unless my memory betrays me, had the Avengers logo on them).

Keep in mind the Avengers where the Avengers right after the events of that very movie even if they didn't form and stick together as a lasting team until some time between Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron. Just being part of the team that fought the Chitauri in New York, that one mission, qualified them.

Plus I think Endgame in general drastically increased the Avengers roster (admittedly right before they disbanded after the first members all either died, retired, or left). I personally refer to the army that formed to fight Thanos as the "Avengers Army" since Captain America lead that charge by shouting "Avengers Assemble". (Captain Marvel showed up after that part.) I would understand if not everyone agrees with that part, but the rest still applies to Rocket, Scott, and Nebula.

[Tyndmyr]

If they went along with the Avengers on a mission, I think they count. Everyone actively travelling back in time for the time heist? Avenger.

You get some oddities, like Ant-man and Spiderman being brought along in Civil War, despite not really being part of the Avengers lineup. Both are kinda doing their own thing in general.

But since Ant-Man also gets to do the time heist, I think he qualifies. Okoye does not qualify because she is primarily doing Wakanda stuff. She can occasionally be an ally of the Avengers when interests align, but I would have difficult imaging her identifying herself as an Avenger.

Capt Marvel, by the same token, isn't really an Avenger. She's aligned with them in a general sense, but she's distinctly doing her own thing apart from the team.

Counting absolutely everyone who shows up at the big Endgame battle feels...odd. You've got just random dudes without superpowers there because everybody came out to play. It feels strange to call them all Avengers.

[Ramza00]

If they went along with the Avengers on a mission, I think they count. Everyone actively travelling back in time for the time heist? Avenger.

You get some oddities, like Ant-man and Spiderman being brought along in Civil War, despite not really being part of the Avengers lineup. Both are kinda doing their own thing in general.

But since Ant-Man also gets to do the time heist, I think he qualifies. Okoye does not qualify because she is primarily doing Wakanda stuff. She can occasionally be an ally of the Avengers when interests align, but I would have difficult imaging her identifying herself as an Avenger.

Capt Marvel, by the same token, isn't really an Avenger. She's aligned with them in a general sense, but she's distinctly doing her own thing apart from the team.

Counting absolutely everyone who shows up at the big Endgame battle feels...odd. You've got just random dudes without superpowers there because everybody came out to play. It feels strange to call them all Avengers.

So in sum like 3/4^ths of the Avengers are orphans. I guess they are a kind of “Just Us League” *drumbeat*

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Counting absolutely everyone who shows up at the big Endgame battle feels...odd. You've got just random dudes without superpowers there because everybody came out to play. It feels strange to call them all Avengers.

I’m aware I’m nitpicking here, but while I agree considering every random nameless Ravager who showed up for the Thanos fight an Avenger might be a stretch, Clint and Natasha both fall under the ‘without superpowers’ heading.

[Tyndmyr]

So in sum like 3/4^ths of the Avengers are orphans. I guess they are a kind of “Just Us League” *drumbeat*

Oh yeah, orphans are ludicrously common in the MCU. Just dead parents as far as the eye can see.

I’m aware I’m nitpicking here, but while I agree considering every random nameless Ravager who showed up for the Thanos fight an Avenger might be a stretch, Clint and Natasha both fall under the ‘without superpowers’ heading.

Yeah, that's a fair nit to pick, I guess, though both of those are at least exceptional people with at least a bit of unusual gear. It ain't Thor in the lottery, but they stand out from the crowd, and they've been with the Avengers the whole way.

Someone like Coulson, well...you could probably have a decent argument over that.

[Talakeal]

Oh yeah, orphans are ludicrously common in the MCU. Just dead parents as far as the eye can see.
at.

Superheroes in general. Look at the Justice League.

Actually, I think most action heroes are orphans regardless of medium.

[theNater]

Counting absolutely everyone who shows up at the big Endgame battle feels...odd. You've got just random dudes without superpowers there because everybody came out to play. It feels strange to call them all Avengers.

Like Hawkeye said in Age of Ultron: "It doesn't matter what you did or who you were...you walk out that door, you are an Avenger."

Being an Avenger isn't about powers, or length of association, or paperwork. It's about fighting to protect people when nothing makes any sense. So yes, everybody who participated in the Thanos fight is an Avenger.

[KillianHawkeye]

My opinion is that anyone who was there when Cap said "Avengers... assemble!" is an Avenger.

That doesn't really have anything to do with the Hawkeye show, though....