Hawkeye

[Sholos]

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I think Yelena wants answers, not just to kill Hawkeye.

[3SecondCultist]

If so, she didn't do a very good job of it.

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Clint is on the point of retirement, very much not in his fighting prime, and it strains belief that someone trained in the Red Room couldn't take him out in seconds.

Besides which, if Yelena really wanted to end him, she'd probably go the sniper route without ever needing to engage close-up. Presumably we'll find out more next week, but I highly doubt Hawkeye was Yelena's primary target.

Spoiler: That Fight

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I agree with this analysis of events. I very much doubt that Yelena wants to kill Clint. Far more likely that she was out to capture him and try to get the truth out of him - don't forget, all she had to go on was Lady Hydrafeld's word. If I were a professional spy with a history of being taken advantage of, I'd definitely want to verify that my target is indeed deserving of death before pulling the trigger.

Edit: Hawkeye'd!

[Wintermoot]

If so, she didn't do a very good job of it.

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Clint is on the point of retirement, very much not in his fighting prime, and it strains belief that someone trained in the Red Room couldn't take him out in seconds.

Besides which, if Yelena really wanted to end him, she'd probably go the sniper route without ever needing to engage close-up. Presumably we'll find out more next week, but I highly doubt Hawkeye was Yelena's primary target.

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In this media/movie series of Marvel, Hawkeye has always been Natasha's fundamental equal in combat, even occasionally beating her. He's not "just an archer" as evidenced by his five years as Ronin, super ninja. The idea that someone "trained in the Red Room should be able to take him out in seconds" is unsupportable. Even if we see him as "not in his fighting prime."

I agree, though, that is Yelena wanted to kill him, as a primary motive, she'd use a sniper rifle. However, I'm torn between "Yelena knows she is being manipulated and wants to get the truth from Clint" - the story I'd like this to be; and "Yelena just wants to be able to kill him up close and personal making sure he knows why she is killing him, only reluctantly backing down when forced to face the truth of her manipulation" - the story I'm afraid this will end up being.

[Talakeal]

Soma few weeks ago there were rumors of a big post credit scene after episode four.

Did I miss something or was that just nonsense?

[Ramza00]

The whole

Spoiler: Battle Tactics

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The whole Yelena thing does not make sense if one is thinking about it. Why would Yelena ambush Clint when he had his gear, and during the middle of a mission, and his backup is nearby.

Sure it is not perfectly ideal on Clint’s perspective, likewise though if you are going to get the drop on someone and choose the theater of combat this was not the one Yelena would want to pick.

Thus something happened, a mistake, or Yelena was emotional (and not acting towards her Black Widow programming, for even Widows are human), or the third option narrative drama 🎭. Yelena Showing up during the mission and right before episode break is the height of tension on the part of the viewer. In sum do not over think it.

[Clertar]

If so, she didn't do a very good job of it.

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Clint is on the point of retirement, very much not in his fighting prime, and it strains belief that someone trained in the Red Room couldn't take him out in seconds.

Besides which, if Yelena really wanted to end him, she'd probably go the sniper route without ever needing to engage close-up. Presumably we'll find out more next week, but I highly doubt Hawkeye was Yelena's primary target.

I think that Hawkeye and OG Black Widow were more or less matched, with differently specialized skills. Would you really say that Black Widow outclassed him that much?

[ecarden]

This episode set a bunch of stuff up and paid nothing off. I may start holding off on watching these shows until I can binge the whole season as I find the waiting and the way they break up these very long movies extremely frustrating.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Clertar
I think that Hawkeye and OG Black Widow were more or less matched, with differently specialized skills. Would you really say that Black Widow outclassed him that much?

Yes, I’d say so.

Clint has fought Natasha three times, lost each time; and even when he was actively trying to do her harm, she put him down relatively easily. He’s also fought Black Panther and Quicksilver, and the only reason he survived in both cases is because neither of them was really trying to kill him.

Clint is the arrow guy, so close combat is secondary for him. Natasha, meanwhile, seems to be expert in both ranged and melee—but she really cuts loose in melee, and I don’t think we’ve ever seen her do any of the ranged tricks that are second nature to Clint, e.g. double-dart bull’s-eye, knockout quarters, etc.

So I’m comfortable saying that Clint is better at ranged, since that’s his primary expertise, and Natasha has a substantial edge on him with hand-to-hand.

Originally Posted by ecarden
This episode set a bunch of stuff up and paid nothing off. I may start holding off on watching these shows until I can binge the whole season as I find the waiting and the way they break up these very long movies extremely frustrating.

It never occurred to me to be frustrated with this. I enjoy looking forward to each new episode.

As for today’s,

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I liked the character interaction, Kate’s rather goofy attempts to cheer him up, and the unexpectedly deep conversation she found herself in, which shattered some of her illusions even as she bravely tried to sustain them. I’d say that made it worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Talakeal
Soma few weeks ago there were rumors of a big post credit scene after episode four.

Did I miss something or was that just nonsense?

No post-credits scene that I saw.

[Clertar]

So I’m comfortable saying that Clint is better at ranged, since that’s his primary expertise, and Natasha has a substantial edge on him with hand-to-hand.

No post-credits scene that I saw.

I would agree with that. But to me that doesn't translate into Hawkeye automatically being taken out in a matter of seconds by a Black Widow.

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I wasn't surprised that he could hold his own for a bit, it certainly didn't strain belief for me.

In this episode Hawkeye didn't have the upper hand on Yelena, and without Kate, he would have been taken out when Yelena paralized him. It checks out.

[Psyren]

I would agree with that. But to me that doesn't translate into Hawkeye automatically being taken out in a matter of seconds by a Black Widow.

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I wasn't surprised that he could hold his own for a bit, it certainly didn't strain belief for me.

In this episode Hawkeye didn't have the upper hand on Yelena, and without Kate, he would have been taken out when Yelena paralized him. It checks out.

Agreed, and also:

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Yelena isn't acting like a typical Widow, given that she tried to save Kate's life (intentionally anchoring her to the roof before throwing her off it - and unintentionally re-triggering Clint's trauma in the process.)

It's likely that even with "Val's" directive, Yelena is pulling her punches so she can interrogate Clint for herself rather than trying to summarily execute him on a sketchy woman's say-so. I'd be surprised if Clint didn't notice that, for all his decision to expel Kate from the quest for her safety.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Clertar

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…without Kate, he would have been taken out when Yelena paralized him.

Which…sounds like what I was saying, pretty much.

[Dragonus45]

I find it odd that people are so quick to underestimate a literal Avenger with decades of experience and skill here.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dragonus45
I find it odd that people are so quick to underestimate a literal Avenger with decades of experience and skill here.

It’s not the years, it’s the mileage.

But yes, decades, and those tend to pile up and weigh you down, as the hearing aid is meant to suggest.

[Tyndmyr]

I mean, Kate is also Hawkeye. They’re actually both active and called Hawkeye in the Fraction comic which this show is definitely drawing from.

Also as a little joy for me. Some years ago on this forum I stated my desire to see the Fraction comic as the basis for a fun little Hawkeye movie. It took a little bit, but two episodes in and I’m very happy with it.

Feh, Hawkeye most certainly refers primarily to Clint Barton, particularly in the MCU.

Everyone has been everyone in some comic or another, that matters quite little with regards to advertising and expectations. Giving Hawkeye no film is already kind of shorting him relative to the rest of the avengers, making another character the protagonist further leaves him feeling a bit...second string.

It does recall the Black Widow film a bit.

Yes, I’d say so.

Clint has fought Natasha three times, lost each time; and even when he was actively trying to do her harm, she put him down relatively easily. He’s also fought Black Panther and Quicksilver, and the only reason he survived in both cases is because neither of them was really trying to kill him.

Hawkeye actually does pretty great throughout the first Avengers. Granted, he's mind controlled, which is a bit of a problem, but given magic isn't on the table here, eh, whatever. Him going full out is pretty scary.

Remember, he *was* able to take out a helicarrier.

Given that the same shot not only took out the carrier but dropped Black Widow into a level with an angry Hulk....it seems he accomplished exactly his goal in that moment.

Yeah, Black Widow later manages to land a headshot that breaks the mind control, but it should be noted that Barton hasn't really lost...the two appear evenly matched in this fight, and Barton is certainly not incapacitated. Its a weakness of the mind control, not of Hawkeye.

In addition...

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This last episode says that Barton didn't kill Black Widow in his original mission because he couldn't bring himself to fire, choosing instead to break her out. It sounds as if he had the opportunity.

Overall, it appears he is more worried over Kate's safety than his own with regards to Yelena. He probably believes he can take a Black Widow assassin on, but doesn't believe she is ready, and has already been shown to be understandably concerned for her safety...especially given her arrogance and cockiness.

I also don't mind experienced fighters taking a hit when ambushed out of their element. That's a big factor, and even the best of fighters can often be tripped up. That whole scene doesn't bother me.

Where I have a beef is more with Kate. I kinda want to like her at some points, but every now and again she just swaps over into entitled/arrogant mode, and that's...tiresome. I get she's a teen, but still.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Where I have a beef is more with Kate. I kinda want to like her at some points, but every now and again she just swaps over into entitled/arrogant mode, and that's...tiresome. I get she's a teen, but still.

Agreed. I think she's supposed to be 20-ish, but she spends most of her time being whiny and entitled, and I just don't have patience for that.

[Ramza00]

They said Kate was 22, which would make her roughly a senior in college if she did no gap year, graduated high school at 18, and is taking a full course load. Which she may not be for she is still doing highly competitive competitions due to getting a new medal.

[Wintermoot]

Feh, Hawkeye most certainly refers primarily to Clint Barton, particularly in the MCU.

Sure, I'm a 47 year old guy. When you say "hawkeye" to me, I think of Clint Barton. (or MASH) I think there's a strong chance that if you take a bunch of 16-24 year old comic fans and say "Hawkeye" a significant % of them might think of Kate Bishop.

But as the MCU goes, sure. Kate didn't exist until this series.

Everyone has been everyone in some comic or another, that matters quite little with regards to advertising and expectations. Giving Hawkeye no film is already kind of shorting him relative to the rest of the avengers, making another character the protagonist further leaves him feeling a bit...second string.

It does recall the Black Widow film a bit.

Not surprising. Both the Hawkeye series and the Black Widow movie had a goal of transitioning the role from person A to person B. Natasha to Yelena. Clint to Kate.

Look at how they are treating "Ronin" in this series. It is a role, a title, a costume, a metaphor that is the macguffin of change. the "Hawkeye" title, not the Ronin title is the real thing being transitioned. So Hawkeye, as a title of this series, is less a specific name of an individual and more a honorific being transitioned. They covered the same ground in Falcon and Winter Soldier with the Captain America moniker.

Where I have a beef is more with Kate. I kinda want to like her at some points, but every now and again she just swaps over into entitled/arrogant mode, and that's...tiresome. I get she's a teen, but still.

I don't really get this read, no matter how many of you say it. It doesn't jive with what I'm actually seeing on the show. "entitled and arrogant". Where are you getting that? *shrug* oh well, probably best not to explore that tangent.

My personal dislike around how they are handling Kate is how incompetent she is being shown at times. She is almost a comedic character, taking prat falls and spit takes. I understand the point is to show that she has a lot to learn and needs a mentor, but they could be doing a better job of it IMO.

[Pax1138]

I actually like how both of those things work together. Sometime she's on a high horse for a laugh, and sometimes she gets knocked off of it for a laugh. It's one way you can make a character that's got some growing up to do endearing. These young Avengers aren't going to show up as fully-formed badasses like a lot of the originals did (especially Hawkeye himself, who never got so much as a one-line origin story).

[Ramza00]

The thing about comics Kate is that she is “functional” on the spectrum of distinguished, functional, disaster ( think law v. chaos but different. ) Yet everyone else on her many teams are more on the disaster scale of this spectrum so the functional person is possessing both things simultaneously. Like it was Clint in the comics talking about Boomerang arrows.

Yet this had to change due to MCU Clint for he is an amalgamation of different types of Action Hero tropes, some of the Ultimate Comics Clint (who is very 00s, and inspired by over the top 80s movies), and very little of the main marvels Clint. But to get a buddy comic dynamic you need tension but not purposeful at their throats tension, accidentally sometimes productive and counterproductive tension and thus MCU Kate is different for MCU Clint is different.

So it is interesting to watch Kate Bishop do what she does in this show. It is her but not her, like they switched her dominant hand from left handed to right handed, but sometimes there is a flux factor where everything is backwards.

Kate is earnest and trying to do good, and often takes Initiative / Point, yet there is a failure to communicate for the point man is the one who is most vulnerable person on the battlefield, relying on their co-patriots to have their back. Thus to do this successfully that requires experience and proper communication or risk serious danger.

[3SecondCultist]

Spoiler: Episode 5

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Yelena is great. I love Florence Pugh in this role, and she's a great foil to Kate that I didn't expect. Good to see that her plot also ties into the main plot with Eleanor being dirty (no real surprise there).

But... Kingpin!! Vincent D'Onofrio, how I missed you in this role. The anticipation for next week is killing me.

[Ramza00]

My brain has to remind myself the real life actresses are both 25, only a month apart in birthdate.

For the on screen lore is different.

[Sholos]

Actors hardly ever play characters exactly the same age as themselves.

[Ramza00]

Actors hardly ever play characters exactly the same age as themselves.

Yeah but the on screen lore is suggesting the two character ages are like 8 to 10 years apart, for one was aged down, and the other aged up, and my brain is trying to reconcile things for it feels off. 🙃

[Palanan]

So, this was a ride. First half was very meh, second half picked up.

Spoiler: Girls' Night

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I wasn’t too impressed with Yelena in the Black Widow movie, so for me it’s not really value added to have her involved here. Yes, there’s the prospect of some closure about Natasha, but I’m just…not psyched about the character.

Her conversation with Kate was too cute and stylized for me. Just very oh-so-cool Marvel snark. It’s their brand, just wasn’t working for me here.

Also, I’m not impressed with the character if, after all her adoptive sister did, she’s still making a living with contracts. I hope Clint gets a chance to tell that to her face.

Spoiler: Phone Home

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Apparently being married to an Avenger means you sign off on some dirty deeds. Whatever she might say, it really sounded like Clint was indeed calling for permission, if not reassurance. I liked the dynamic, which felt more genuinely adult than most of the “relationships” in the MCU.

That said, it was a lot of buildup to an encounter in which Clint didn’t actually kill anyone, and in fact he didn’t actually end anything. At one point I thought he was going to let Echo think she’d killed him, although that would involve some logistical challenges. But not ending her guarantees that she won't quit, which just means more trouble.

Spoiler: Used Cars

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Loved the reference to “Fat Man Used Cars.” I seem to recall that Kingpin once described himself as “a humble importer of spices,” but the used-car approach works as well. Or is he so well-diversified that he’s into everything?

Haven’t seen the Daredevil series, so this'll be my first look at The Big Guy, looking forward to it. Yelena, not so much.

Spoiler: Street Memorial

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Also loved the fact that Clint’s name was on the very bottom of the memorial. Poor Clint, always seems to come in after everyone else.

[JadedDM]

Spoiler: Phone Home

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But not ending her guarantees that she won't quit, which just means more trouble.

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He did plant a seed of doubt in her mind, though. She's starting to question things. That was likely what he was hoping for. (It was quite a gamble, though.)

[Sholos]

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Given how she started questioning Kanzi, I think he got through enough.

[GloatingSwine]

Yet this had to change due to MCU Clint for he is an amalgamation of different types of Action Hero tropes, some of the Ultimate Comics Clint (who is very 00s, and inspired by over the top 80s movies), and very little of the main marvels Clint. But to get a buddy comic dynamic you need tension but not purposeful at their throats tension, accidentally sometimes productive and counterproductive tension and thus MCU Kate is different for MCU Clint is different.

More like because the MCU Hawkeye is exceptionally, professionally, bland. Someone on screen has to have a personality, and it ain't gonna be someone played by Jeremy Renner.

[BRC]

More like because the MCU Hawkeye is exceptionally, professionally, bland. Someone on screen has to have a personality, and it ain't gonna be someone played by Jeremy Renner.

I mean, it's kind of an interesting take on Comic's Hawkeye (Specifically the Fraction run).

Comics Hawkeye is "Just Some Guy, and if Just Some Guy was an Avenger, he would regularly get beaten up and not have enough energy left over after Avengering to really do much".

So Fraction Clint is constantly bandaged, always in over his head (even against a foe like the Tracksuits, who are just some bargain basement goons), always exhausted and always making terrible decisions, because you start at the point of "This guy made the terrible decision to join the Avengers as a frontline combatant despite having no powers and using a Bow and Arrow".

MCU Hawkeye is "Just Some Guy" in that he has a very subdued personality, no real strong drive (Avengering is mostly just, like, a Job for him) and his home life is the generic "Wife and 2.5 kids".

Rather than "What if we took a Superhero, and took away everything that normally makes that possible while still keeping him a superhero, what would be left behind?" it's "What if we took a generic Adult American Man and changed him just enough to make him a Superhero".

I'm not saying it's a GOOD way to make a character, but it is certainly a thing that they did.

[Ramza00]

More like because the MCU Hawkeye is exceptionally, professionally, bland. Someone on screen has to have a personality, and it ain't gonna be someone played by Jeremy Renner.

He is also the stoic over the top American action hero who is doing his best trying to keep up with gods (the Ultimate version) in Thor and Avengers 1.

This was abandoned by Avengers 2 for Renner is so bland, so let’s give him a family and let him be a dad / mentor / everyman to scared Wanda.

One does not need two “black widows” in the MCU where Natasha is the girl spy / assassin and Clint is the boy version, such thing is extremely boring. But it is far more boring with Renner on top of it.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Girls' Night

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I wasn’t too impressed with Yelena in the Black Widow movie, so for me it’s not really value added to have her involved here. Yes, there’s the prospect of some closure about Natasha, but I’m just…not psyched about the character.

Her conversation with Kate was too cute and stylized for me. Just very oh-so-cool Marvel snark. It’s their brand, just wasn’t working for me here.

Also, I’m not impressed with the character if, after all her adoptive sister did, she’s still making a living with contracts. I hope Clint gets a chance to tell that to her face.

Spoiler: Livelihood

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She's forced to do that because of the Blip. She ended up displaced, homeless, all her support structures erased and her sister dead in the blink of an eye, cut her some slack.

Before that her focus was deprogramming the remaining Widows, but that doesn't seem to be much of a concern anymore.

Spoiler: Used Cars

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Loved the reference to “Fat Man Used Cars.” I seem to recall that Kingpin once described himself as “a humble importer of spices,” but the used-car approach works as well. Or is he so well-diversified that he’s into everything?

Haven’t seen the Daredevil series, so this'll be my first look at The Big Guy, looking forward to it. Yelena, not so much.

You're in for a treat, his version is phenomenal.

He has pretty diversified holdings and numerous fronts/shells in the comic.

MCU Hawkeye is "Just Some Guy" in that he has a very subdued personality, no real strong drive (Avengering is mostly just, like, a Job for him) and his home life is the generic "Wife and 2.5 kids".

I think there's a lot more to his wife than that judging by the ease with which they had a coded conversation in front of the kids, and how they seemed to be picking up on it so it must be a pretty routine thing. I love how the show is adding hidden depths to Mrs. Barton.