The opposite of Lawful Stupid

[Railak]

So my group was talking one night and we got on the discussion of alignment and how they're only generally represented by the extremes of them. So it got us thinking, what would be the opposite of Lawful Stupid, the overzealous nightmare paladin play style? Psychotic Evil, is what we came up with. They kill and are just evil for the fun of it and are as much of a problem as lawful stupid. No thoughts behind what they do just killing everything and everyone, of at least trying.

The main reason we even decided to name it was, in our group you can play chaotic evil.. as long as you don't play it Psychotic Evil.. likewise we don't allow Lawful Stupid in our group. Cause no one else has fun with either of those alignments.

[GeoffWatson]

Obviously Chaotic Stupid is the opposite of Lawful Stupid.
Where the player chooses randomly for every action.
Or does the dumbest action available.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html

[King of Nowhere]

the opposite of lawful is chaotic, so you're looking at chaotic stupid: will break laws, act erratically, sabotage the mission, screw up party members, and run against his own self interest, because screw the rules
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../ChaoticStupid

[Zombulian]

Obviously Chaotic Stupid is the opposite of Lawful Stupid.
Where the player chooses randomly for every action.
Or does the dumbest action available.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html

the opposite of lawful is chaotic, so you're looking at chaotic stupid: will break laws, act erratically, sabotage the mission, screw up party members, and run against his own self interest, because screw the rules
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../ChaoticStupid

I’m sorry but I feel like you guys are only considering a single axis here. Wouldn’t the opposite of Lawful Stupid be Chaotic Genius?

[GeoffWatson]

I’m sorry but I feel like you guys are only considering a single axis here. Wouldn’t the opposite of Lawful Stupid be Chaotic Genius?

I guess most of the Sparks (Mad Scientists) from the Girl Genius comic would be Chaotic Genius.

[Maat Mons]

I'd say Chaotic Sensible. You don't like being told what to do, but you'll work as part of a group if it's clearly in your best interests.

[Crake]

The opposite of an extreme is the middle ground. So along the "stupid" axis, you'd have True stupid, smack bang in the middle of all the stupids. They do a little bit of everything stupid "to keep balance between their alignments".

[Seward]

The main reason we even decided to name it was, in our group you can play chaotic evil.. as long as you don't play it Psychotic Evil.. likewise we don't allow Lawful Stupid in our group. Cause no one else has fun with either of those alignments.

There is a Xena episode with a functional Chaotic evil warlord organization. Basically if you aren't scheming to overthrow your superior and not skimming stuff on the side you don't have what it takes to be anything but a follower. But if your boss catches you at it, he doesn't kill you. He just showed why he's boss and you take a break from assassination plots till you gain some skills, and you cut him in on your side deals until you can come up with something new. It's basically all in good fun/competition. If you manage to kill your boss he's like "I'm so proud of training you to be so badass" in his dying breath.

Of course in D&D you can raise him, and make him a subordinate if that's useful to you. After all, your former boss had mad skills.

[Zanos]

I'd say Chaotic Sensible. You don't like being told what to do, but you'll work as part of a group if it's clearly in your best interests.

If you ever find one, let me know. People that play CN that aren't toxic are like unicorns.

[Tzardok]

If you ever find one, let me know. People that play CN that aren't toxic are like unicorns.

My brother. He can play all alignments constructively and most alignments well. I imagine I'm like that too, but it's difficult to discern from the inside.

[icefractal]

I've seen plenty of functional CN characters, as long as they don't make "chaotic" their whole personality. I mean, Han Solo in Episode 4 could be considered CN, and you wouldn't call him Chaotic Stupid.

[Seward]

I've seen plenty of functional CN characters, as long as they don't make "chaotic" their whole personality. I mean, Han Solo in Episode 4 could be considered CN, and you wouldn't call him Chaotic Stupid.

I played a teenager CN, bitter at having his life ruined by becoming the favored soul of a storm god, when he just wanted to be a temple healer.

CN can be a condition caused by just being kind of self-centered. All those teenage sorcerors and barbarians with more levels than years are kind of a scary concept....

Then there are actual toddlers. Says elder Paladin to a newbie "Kids are all chaotic evil. Don't smite them. Most grow out of it"

[Particle_Man]

I might see it as “you can be Chaotic Watsonian, but don’t be Chaotic Doylist”. Like, your character can do chaotic things, so long as it does not interfere with the enjoyment of your fellow players (including the DM) and progress of the game. If the other players are amused, likely you are in the Watsonian zone and are on. If other players (I don’t mean the characters here, I mean the players) are frustrated with your actions or worse, bored because your actions are taking away their ability to enjoy the game, you are being Doylist and should stop.

[Seward]

If other players (I don’t mean the characters here, I mean the players) are frustrated with your actions or worse, bored because your actions are taking away their ability to enjoy the game, you are being Doylist and should stop.

Yup. I remember a game session with 2 halflings at the table bickering constantly (and when told to get a room, got all offended). The gm checked in "You are doing that in character?" and they both broke character and smiled. It was funny bickering and we all got a lick in later, on one side or the other.

[wilphe]

If you ever find one, let me know. People that play CN that aren't toxic are like unicorns.

Hello

Waves at Zanos

[wilphe]

I'd say Chaotic Sensible. You don't like being told what to do, but you'll work as part of a group if it's clearly in your best interests.

I don't care about rules per se

But I take the trouble to read them and follow them because that's how powerful people will try to screw you over.

Also to look for loopholes and because malicious compliance is a thing.

[ChudoJogurt]

Shouldn't the opposite of Lawful stupid be Chaotic Genius?

Like a person who plays brilliant, seemingly (or genuinely) random actions that somehow make game better and create adventures that be come legendary?

[MightypIon]

Peak chaotic neutral stuff:

WoTR spoilers (the PCs are leading an anti Demon crusade):

1: Troll a Succubus (who worshipped Baphomet) into believing that you are worshipping Nocticula (Pathfinder queen of Succubi), and that Nocticula supports the anti demon crusade.
The party was sceptical.
2: Bluff the big bad of the module into also believing that, making him attack said Succubus because he thinks she is aligned with the party and going to backstab him.
The party was surprised it worked.
3: Win the fight, then let the Succubus escape after healing her a bit, while admonishing her to seek "more optically optimized" demon lords to serve instead.
The party was sceptical.
4: Get a dream visit from a fairly amused Nocticula, who finds it hilarious that a mortal who does not serve her managed to revert a Succubus who does not serve her into actually serving her again.
The party had no idea this happened.
5: Offer Nocticula a regular tribute of "amusing antics and shenangians" in return for information and an occassional magic item. Roll and roleplay well enough that she accepts.
The party had no idea this happened either.
6: Due a bunch of pretty hilarious stuff, such as trying to assassinate a Glabrezu by messing with gravity and dropping a runic anvil, consecretad to Torag, on top of her head, or trying to kill a world wound dragon using a Gibrileth cancer demon, cunning disguised as a flying meatball tribute, only to find out this worked too well and you now face an abyssal worldwound cancer dragon.
The party was "finally it didnt work."
7: When in Alyushinnara (Abyssal Capital of Lust), secretly put a bounty on the Parties Paladins virginity, with the provision that it must be taken consensually, in order to gain notoriety.
Some of the party members guess what was going on.
8: Try to actually make money out of it by making several massive bets on that Paladin keeping his virginity.
Some of the party members guessed what was going on.
9: End up 200K GP in debt to Nocticula herself, because a) the Paladin didnt and b)Nocticula essentially betted on herself there and of course won.
The Paladin was made aware of the bet by Nocticula, telepathically. This actually made him accept her profane ascension to troll back the chaotic character.
Yes, he fell for that but atonement is a thing.
10: Work off the debt to Nocticula mostly by conserving Baphomets severed head and selling it to Asmodeus. Then Bluff/Diplomatize Asmodeus into declaring a sizeable bounty on killing Baphomet for good. Epically fail because of course Nocticula stole that kill (to turn Baphomet into a Demon Isle), meaning she would earn the bounty. Accept a comission of 20% of the bounties worth in return for moving to hell and physically transporting it to the Abyss (which Nocticula cannot possibly be bothered to do). Asmodeus opted to join the "troll the troll" competition by paying 666K GP in copper pennies (and also tried to kill the character by dumping all of these pennies on him, he dodged though). Come up with a fairly insane scheme to assemble the millions of copper pennies into a very large golem, in order to aid transportation.

[Gnaeus]

If you ever find one, let me know. People that play CN that aren't toxic are like unicorns.

I’ve played a couple of CN characters in recent campaigns.

One was a cleric of a CE god who believed the boss got screwed over by good deities at the beginning of time. He was devoted to setting up a CN cult of the deity with the same portfolio but less into torture and demons. In play, he rarely differed from a CG in his motives, overthrowing authoritarian governments, freeing slaves, promoting freedom and liberty (which were what he thought his god was all about) but sometimes opposing “the Man” works better when you summon some demons. He was active for 16 levels and was a consistently good teammate to his group.

The other was a tribal shaman. He’s chaotic for the same reason Barbarians are. He lives in the desert and doesn’t think much of laws or society. He worships the spirits of wherever he is, which are usually chaotic in his homeland but he carries a dozen holy symbols and will happily worship whichever deity seems appropriate. But of course he’s a team player. He was raised to support his tribe’s warriors, that’s what he’s going to do, and he’s equally happy if they are protecting a caravan or robbing one. He could have been true neutral, and it wouldn’t have changed his behavior at all, I just felt like his personal ethos was a bit on the C side.

Just because raving madman is a CN/CS concept doesn’t mean every CN character is a raving madman or a troll. You shouldn’t act like a lunatic because you write CN on your sheet. CN doesn’t mean you can’t have personal goals or tactics which align with a party. You should write CN on your sheet because your character concept is neither strongly G or E and tends to oppose societal order.

[Red Fel]

To be fair, Lawful Stupid and Chaotic Stupid are opposites because they constitute entirely different flavors of stupid.

Consider. The Lawful Stupid is predictably stupid. You know the type. This character engages in one particular brand of stupid, consistently. The character is going to sign your party up for every single quest. He is going to Detect Evil first, Smite Evil second, and ask questions later, every single time. She is going to lecture your party on her absurd and impractical code of ethics until your ears bleed, for the slightest infraction. And you know when it's about to happen, too - you feel the familiar urge to facepalm and say, "No, Steve, don't-" even before the character has done anything. It's the same stupid, every time.

Chaotic Stupid - or perhaps better described as Chaotic Lol Random - is never the same stupid twice. Every dumb thing is a new and unique dumb thing. You have no idea how this twitface will derail the scene this time, you just know he will. It may or may not involve explosives. It may or may not involve killing or stealing from NPCs. It may or may not involve defecting to the enemy team. There is simply no way to predict the stupid, you just know it's coming in some new, unforeseen form.

So, yeah. I can see them as opposites, simply because "stupid" is such a broad spectrum as to encompass infinite diversity in infinite combinations of stupid. You can have two opposing poles of stupid. You could have three orthogonal poles of stupid. You could have an N-dimensional space, with axes in all directions, each quantifying a different component of stupid, many in diametrically opposed pairs. And you would still barely scratch the surface of what that term means.

Stupid contains multitudes, is my point.

[Phhase]

Taken at face value, the opposite of Lawful Stupid is Chaotic Mastermind. Someone extremely adept at doing whatever they want, law be damned, and getting away with it. Magnificent Bastard, even.

[vasilidor]

This implies the existence of lawful intelligent.

[Malphegor]

I’m sorry but I feel like you guys are only considering a single axis here. Wouldn’t the opposite of Lawful Stupid be Chaotic Genius?

Honestly I feel that anybody who’s dumb enough to become an adventurer doesn’t deserve to call themselves a genius

[vasilidor]

Honestly I feel that anybody who’s dumb enough to become an adventurer doesn’t deserve to call themselves a genius

1. This assumes that it was a choice and not a requirement of survival.
2. It depends on what you consider genius. Some people are smart enough to figure out to do some very complex and difficult things and then do them even if those things are not actually wise to do.

[Analytica]

Lina Inverse?

[Kitsuneymg]

Lina Inverse?

Captain Tyler

[+5 Vorpal Bunny]

I'm enjoying both the ideas of Chaotic Genius and how Chaotic Stupid takes on many shades. With that, my own input:

Lawful Stupid is essentially the Lawful alignment at its worst; its opposite, then, would be Chaos at its best. This includes Freedom, Adaptability and Ingenuity.

These are the types of characters that are always changing themselves and/or their environments to rise to the challenge and turn things in their favor. They don't tie themselves to a single personalty, organization or belief system. They are individually guided by what they want and they go for it. They often seem weird, unpredictable and even silly, but their results speak volumes - they are often forces of radical and permanent change in a setting.

Examples of Chaos at its best include Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Carribean), Niv-Mizzet (Magic the Gathering: Ravnica) and Jar-Jar Binks (Star Wars Prequels).

[Particle_Man]

Didn’t Jar-Jar Binks argue for giving Chancellor Palpatine emergency powers?

[hamishspence]

Yup - but he was primarily the spokesman for the Senate faction that wanted it done. The main reason for him specifically being selected was that he was Padme's proxy, and so, for her (represented by him), who'd always been anti-army, to about-face on the issue, would have much more effect on the rest of the Senate than for someone who'd always been pro-army to make the proposal.

Spoiler: AOTC novelization

Show

“Unfortunately, the debate is not over,” Bail Organa said. “The Senate will never approve the use of the army before the separatists attack. And by then, it will likely be too late.”
“This is a crisis,” Mas Amedda dared interject. “The Senate must vote the Chancellor emergency powers! He could then approve the use of the clones.”
Palpatine rocked back at the suggestion, seeming profoundly shaken. “But what Senator would have the courage to propose such a radical amendment?” he asked hesitantly.
“I will!” Ask Aak declared.
Beside him, Bail Organa gave a helpless chuckle and shook his head. “They will not listen to you, I fear. Nor to me,” he added quickly, when Ask Aak snapped a glare at him. “We have spent too much of our political capital debating the philosophies of the separatists and arguing for action. The Senate will not see our call as anything more than overly alarmist. We need a voice of reason, one willing to reverse position, even, given the gravity of the current situation.”
“If only Senator Amidala was here,” Mas Amedda reasoned.
Without hesitation, Jar Jar Binks stepped forward again. “Mesa mosto Supreme Chancellor,” the Gungan said, squaring his sloping shoulders as much as possible. “Mesa gusto pallos,” he said deferentially to all the others. “Mesa proud to proposing the motion to give Yousa Honor emergency powers.”
Palpatine looked from the trembling Gungan to Bail Organa. “He speaks for Amidala,” the Senator from Alderaan said. “By all understanding within the Senate, Jar Jar Binks’s words are a reflection of Senator Amidala’s desires.”

If even smart guys like Bail Organa can want the emergency powers given, it's hard to blame Jar Jar for wanting them given as well.

[loky1109]

Didn’t Jar-Jar Binks argue for giving Chancellor Palpatine emergency powers?

Dark Lord Dart Jar Jar you want to say.