Would a Solar make a good final boss?

[Sir-Carlos]

The idea is, to have a guy who wants to ascend to godhood and has developed some angel-like powers. I don't feel super comfortable with homebrewing monsters yet, so I would just reskin a Solar. I want this guy to be the final boss of the campaign and he will be fighting a party of 4 lvl 15 characters. The question is: Would a Solar make a good final boss? Would it be boring to fight just one big creature? Also, is this guy going to put up a decent fight? The challenge rating says yes, but he doesn't seem super strong. Any tips/suggestions? :-)

EDIT: Hey you all, thanks for your suggestions! So, It seems like a lone Solar could be a bit difficult to run. Would a lesser Angel, a Planetar for example, surrounded by a couple of henchmen, be better? Or is a Planetar too weak?

[stoutstien]

Yes and no. If you discount all the melee options and use it mobility and ranged options it could be be extremely hard to deal with and the constant risk of it's bow attack 1 shoting anyone below 100 HP is a serious threat. Tossing in a well placed blade barrier and it could shred them, retreat, Rinse, and repeat
If the party can reduce it's range of movement or force it to stay close it will deal more damage but even with it good saves and AC ~250 HP isn't that high of a 1-2 round Nova value.

[Grim Portent]

I think the main thing is going to be using it's flight and teleport ability to split the fight up into steps, like a videogame or movie boss battle, with battles against lesser foes or obstacles to reach where the boss has gone breaking things up, with some cinematic magic stuff like floors breaking into floating chunks or similar.

Say the boss starts out in a ritual chamber with lots of floors, fights for a few rounds or until hurt to a point, then teleports or flies to a different floor higher up. A group of their soldiers then try to stop the PCs with the Solar dropping arrows and searing bursts in from above.

When the soldiers are defeated the boss starts fighting in melee again until you decide it's time for a final phase shift, some big magic stuff happens, the chamber breaks into chunks of rubble floating with divine power, the boss flies above the highest piece and starts shooting arrows and throwing big blocks of rubble, the PCs then have to climb, jump and/or fly up to them, or shoot them down from below.

[pwykersotz]

It depends on how much the party likes a challenge for the final boss. A single Solar would get shredded if the party can deal with flying foes at all. For a final boss, and with the concept of minimal homebrew in mind, I'd probably give it Legendary Saves and double it's HP. 240 HP is exhausted surprisingly quickly, and when I'm a player, I like final bosses to be up for at least 4-5 rounds.

One big creature isn't boring (to me) as long as it can withstand the punishment the party will dish out. But definitely consider terrain and environmental effects. A white-room fight with a Solar could very easily be boring. But if you're on top of a small floating island ascending to heaven while earthquakes rip pieces off and a freezing whirlwind hurls debris, that would be much more interesting. And maybe there's something to destroy that will alter the battle, like obelisks that are actually causing the island to ascend and that the Solar wants to protect.

[Eldariel]

Solar is one of the very few creatures that is a fair challenge to a large party mostly because its ability to send its Sword flying, engage at 600' and fire with Longbow while maintaining distance with LA Teleport (if the party archer isn't the first guy, it's even possible for the Solar to just shoot and then retreat while the party can at most take a single readied shot back at it). That's certainly a fight the Solar can win, but it's also an immensely frustrating opponent for non-mechanics minded players.

For casters it's an interesting puzzle; how you combine your spells to get in range and land something telling (though it's certainly something they can do with appropriate layering of spells) but for martials, either you're a Longbow Archer with Sharpshooter in which case you're able to deal with it relatively easily, or you're not in which case you probably deal with it very poorly. It's particularly annoying for Barbarians and Monks and small Rogues and Paladins (Paladins to lesser degree since they're at least half-casters), who don't have much of anything in terms of ranged options other than firing their +2 Dex Longbow for 1d8+2 against an opponent with AC21 and resistance to nonmagical weapons.

Of course, if it lets the whole party attack it, it's gonna be toast real quick. You could beef it up physically if you want to make it a bit less annoying fight and use less optimal tactics. If it fights up close [given its Teleport LA and 150' fly speed, it definitely should still use its massive mobility], Legendary Resistance is of course mandatory too lest a single save-or-suck takes it out too though (by the book, a level 7 Diviner could just Toad the Solar if they ever got within casting range).

[stoutstien]

Solar is one of the very few creatures that is a fair challenge to a large party mostly because its ability to send its Sword flying, engage at 600' and fire with Longbow while maintaining distance with LA Teleport (if the party archer isn't the first guy, it's even possible for the Solar to just shoot and then retreat while the party can at most take a single readied shot back at it). That's certainly a fight the Solar can win, but it's also an immensely frustrating opponent for non-mechanics minded players.

For casters it's an interesting puzzle; how you combine your spells to get in range and land something telling (though it's certainly something they can do with appropriate layering of spells) but for martials, either you're a Longbow Archer with Sharpshooter in which case you're able to deal with it relatively easily, or you're not in which case you probably deal with it very poorly. It's particularly annoying for Barbarians and Monks and small Rogues and Paladins (Paladins to lesser degree since they're at least half-casters), who don't have much of anything in terms of ranged options other than firing their +2 Dex Longbow for 1d8+2 against an opponent with AC21 and resistance to nonmagical weapons.

Of course, if it lets the whole party attack it, it's gonna be toast real quick. You could beef it up physically if you want to make it a bit less annoying fight and use less optimal tactics. If it fights up close [given its Teleport LA and 150' fly speed, it definitely should still use its massive mobility], Legendary Resistance is of course mandatory too lest a single save-or-suck takes it out too though (by the book, a level 7 Diviner could just Toad the Solar if they ever got within casting range).

It has adv and +14 to Wis saves. That means a lv 15 div wizard would need a 3 or lower banked assuming maxed intelligence and hope that they also rolled the second die under 4. Not exactly odds I would rely on to overcome any challenge.

[Eldariel]

It has adv and +14 to Wis saves. That means a lv 15 div wizard would need a 3 or lower banked assuming maxed intelligence and hope that they also rolled the second die under 4. Not exactly odds I would rely on to overcome any challenge.

Portent bypasses Magic Resistance. It replaces the whole roll meaning Magic Resistance does nothing. This goes for advantage and disadvantage in general: Portent trumps them all. So all the Diviner needs is a single low die, which is a fair chance.

[stoutstien]

Portent bypasses Magic Resistance. It replaces the whole roll meaning Magic Resistance does nothing. This goes for advantage and disadvantage in general: Portent trumps them all. So all the Diviner needs is a single low die, which is a fair chance.

Only if they declare it before the save is rolled or at least in the last 4-5 waves of printing. At 15 they would have about a 45% chance to have one polymorph automatically which is ok but do you really think a coin flip is a sound strategy?
** Not to mention they have at will Invisibility and flight so most likely it would achieve some fall damage before it breaks if the wizard can see it and then you still have to eat away it's real HP anyways. better spells to use with potent in this challenge would ones that counter it's strengths rather than trying to go for the 1 and done. Block its sight and flight and it's toast. Little harder thanks to true sight but it's foiled the same way most high CR NPCs are.**

[Eldariel]

Only if they declare it before the save is rolled or at least in the last 4-5 waves of printing. At 15 they would have about a 45% chance to have one polymorph automatically which is ok but do you really think a coin flip is a sound strategy?

Obviously Portent has to be declared before rolling. That's the whole point of portent: replace an uncertain outcome with a certain outcome. If you're talking Diviner 15, they will have Simulacrum which means 6 Portent rolls, which is pretty close to 63% to have a 1-3. Not something to rely on, but certainly not bad either, especially considering how problematic an opponent it is otherwise.

Now, how you use Portent is this:
- Tie the (snail/turtle/whatever) down with a grapple action or whatever.
- Have everyone ready their biggest thing to hit it.
- Sleep for extra points. Target is now incapacitated and you get a free crit off it as the first thing.
- Then you can either drop it at the end of its turn for 20d6+readied actions from all characters+next round's actions, or bury it (that's not gonna end a solar but it's gonna make it a non-threat for a good while if you bury it a bit deeper; it needs LoS to teleport so it can't really get out and since it doesn't need to breathe, it can't suffocate to get back to its plane either so it's kinda stuck digging its way out with its bare hands). In the case of the former, you can even rob it of any chance to teleport by denying line of sight in the location with e.g. Pyrotechnics (potentially something to ready so allies can get advantageous attacks off first?).

[stoutstien]

Obviously Portent has to be declared before rolling. That's the whole point of portent: replace an uncertain outcome with a certain outcome. If you're talking Diviner 15, they will have Simulacrum which means 6 Portent rolls, which is pretty close to 63% to have a 1-3. Not something to rely on, but certainly not bad either, especially considering how problematic an opponent it is otherwise.

Now, how you use Portent is this:
- Tie the (snail/turtle/whatever) down with a grapple action or whatever.
- Have everyone ready their biggest thing to hit it.
- Sleep for extra points. Target is now incapacitated and you get a free crit off it as the first thing.
- Then you can either drop it at the end of its turn for 20d6+readied actions from all characters+next round's actions, or bury it (that's not gonna end a solar but it's gonna make it a non-threat for a good while if you bury it a bit deeper; it needs LoS to teleport so it can't really get out and since it doesn't need to breathe, it can't suffocate to get back to its plane either so it's kinda stuck digging its way out with its bare hands). In the case of the former, you can even rob it of any chance to teleport by denying line of sight in the location with e.g. Pyrotechnics (potentially something to ready so allies can get advantageous attacks off first?).

Ok so you need to use the most busted spell shy of wish, which would work wonders against a single target regardless of potent being available or not, then win initiative, get in range, overcome invisibility, hope they don't just revert back from fall damage thanks to being airborne, and then get someone in position to restrain it, cast a different spell, then finally kill it.

Might be flashy but hardly a plan I would assume would work of the solar has half a brain and home field advantage.

[Eldariel]

Ok so you need to use the most busted spell shy of wish, which would work wonders against a single target regardless of potent being available or not, then win initiative, get in range, overcome invisibility, hope they don't just revert back from fall damage thanks to being airborne, and then get someone in position to restrain it, cast a different spell, then finally kill it.

Might be flashy but hardly a plan I would assume would work of the solar has half a brain and home field advantage.

...this is the level of stuff I'll leave as an exercise to the reader. I don't see why you'd necessarily need to win Initiative, and it seems pretty easy to make everything else happen if you land the spell. The crux is landing Portent Polymorph (or similar); everything else anyone can figure out pretty easily outside the range (like I said earlier, if it's kiting at 600' the whole "getting to affect it in any way whatsoever" is a puzzle of its own).

[Sir-Carlos]

Hey you all, thanks for your suggestions! So, It seems like a Solar would be a bit difficult to run. Would a lesser Angel, a Planetar for example, surrounded by a couple of henchmen, be better? Or is a Planetar too weak?

[stoutstien]

...this is the level of stuff I'll leave as an exercise to the reader. I don't see why you'd necessarily need to win Initiative, and it seems pretty easy to make everything else happen if you land the spell. The crux is landing Portent Polymorph (or similar); everything else anyone can figure out pretty easily outside the range (like I said earlier, if it's kiting at 600' the whole "getting to affect it in any way whatsoever" is a puzzle of its own).

I think the real crux would be if the party could learn that save threshold beforehand alone side the knowledge it doesn't have LS to pad out it's defense. I do think it could work but I have see so many great ideas fail in practice due to simple hurdles. Maybe all the years as a DM has tempered my reliance on anything that doesn't have 5 layers of redundancies lol.

[stoutstien]

Hey you all, thanks for your suggestions! So, It seems like a Solar would be a bit difficult to run. Would a lesser Angel, a Planetar for example, surrounded by a couple of henchmen, be better? Or is a Planetar too weak?

More NPCs (up to a limit that bogs down the game. Personal preference here) always tend to work better than less. Not only does it balance out action economy it will eliminate some of the risk trying to shove all the challenge into a single action which can be swingy. This can be dramatic but it can also lead to anticlimatic outcomes like polymorph + whatever.

For a lv 15 party at full resources I would say a planetar, 3 cultists, and a few cr 7-9 switch hitter NPCs (think champion from volo) would be a good combo.

The real question is what environment/setting you are planning to use? For example a planetar inside a cylinder shaped temple that has a series of spiral flights of stairs around a hollow center that gives the NPCs high ground, cover, and additional movement options that the party has to contend with.

[Eldariel]

Hey you all, thanks for your suggestions! So, It seems like a Solar would be a bit difficult to run. Would a lesser Angel, a Planetar for example, surrounded by a couple of henchmen, be better? Or is a Planetar too weak?

I definitely recommend the Solar. It's a fun creature that can do all sorts of stuff - it's an engaging enemy! Compared to Planetar, it's much better suited for this sort of thing on the back of its options. Just make it not kite at an extreme distance (perhaps make the Teleport take all 3 LRs and make the offensive ones take less), but buff its durability up (LR and such) to compensate and perhaps nerf it offensively (don't remove its offensive options, but you can hit the numbers if need be).

Lesser Solar (not Planetar) with some allies should be an engaging boss fight that can go either way (but again, depends on the players and the party too! You know them the best; would they enjoy a puzzle fight or do they just wanna roll the dice and smash?).

[Kvess]

If you are looking for a way to give the Solar more durability, there's a creature in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft which has a trait that you should absolutely steal. The creature is a Priest of Osybus, and the feature is called Tattoo of Osybus.

What it does is it resurrects the creature at half-maximum health with a random new power — which is cumulative — each time the creature is downed, until it rerolls the same effect or the players destroy the MacGuffin before the creature is resurrected. It's a really cool concept, and could represent some level of apotheosis.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey you all, thanks for your suggestions! So, It seems like a Solar would be a bit difficult to run. Would a lesser Angel, a Planetar for example, surrounded by a couple of henchmen, be better? Or is a Planetar too weak?

Saturday night we fought a demigod/avatar escorted by a planetar and two Devas, but we were level 19. (I was able to TP into a dragon after taking 112 of 155 HP in two rounds).

With a party at 15, take that Planetar and the two Devas - for us it would have been a challenge but doable, so I'd use three kinds of monsters: the planetar boss, two or three Devas, and then pick a flying creature and add a few of those. Or consider the CR 10 and below beast the Deva can become to make life difficult for the party ...

Innate spell casting. (Deva's on the spell side are a bit lackluster).

Planetar Spells:
At will: detect evil and good, invisibility (self only)
3/day each: blade barrier, dispel evil and good, flame strike, raise dead
1/day each: commune, control weather, insect plague

Deva Spells
At will: detect evil and good
1/day each: commune, raise dead

Magic Resistance. Planetar and Deva both have advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Saturday night we fought a demigod/avatar escorted by a planetar and two Devas, but we were level 19. (I was able to TP into a dragon after taking 112 of 155 HP in two rounds).

With a party at 15, take that Planetar and the two Devas - for us it would have been a challenge but doable, so I'd use three kinds of monsters: the planetar boss, two or three Devas, and then pick a flying creature and add a few of those. Or consider the CR 10 and below beast the Deva can become to make life difficult for the party ...

Note on that fight--I did add a longbow option to the devas (nothing special, just a straight longbow + the angelic weapons trait it already has) to make them better ranged combatants.

Looking back, the avatar was under-strength for damage output. Not by much, but by a bit. Now if the planetar hadn't met the blender that is our hexblade/fighter...