Random MetaBanter – Random Banter no. 236 (now with Flowers!)

[Peelee]

Wanda was never going to stay dead.

You can use this sentence for virtually every major Marvel character who isn't named "Uncle Ben".

[Fyraltari]

You can use this sentence for virtually every major Marvel character who isn't named "Uncle Ben".

The quote used to be "No-one stays dead in [superhero] comics, except Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy and Jason Todd." Now, it's just Uncle Ben. For now.

For reals though, Linkara, from Atop the Fourth Wall once did a mighty rant about how the "never stays dead" rule only applies to the big names with brand recognition, and how many interesting small-time characters with plenty of potential get killed, often for cheap drama points or to hype-up the lastest "serious" ubervillain every will have forgotten about three months later, and are then never brought back, because they weren't any writer's favourite.

[Peelee]

The quote used to be "No-one stays dead in [superhero] comics, except Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy and Jason Todd." Now, it's just Uncle Ben. For now.

Jason Todd was DC.

Oh, also, before I forget...

The last thing the writer wrote received more or less universal praise

And George Lucas managed to write and direct both Star Wars and The Phantom Menace. I fail to see your point.

[IthilanorStPete]

I forget if I've said it on these forums or not, so I might be repeating myself, but oh well.

I really liked HoX/PoX. I wanted to keep reading the X-Men storyline(s), and this description of the Trial of Magneto arc sounds interesting. But the thing is, there's like half a dozen different X-Men comic book lines, and keeping up with all of them is more hassle than I really want to go to (to say nothing of the pricing side of things, which admittedly I haven't looked at).

EDIT: For all the talk about bringing back dead characters... it's not wrong, but it's kind of missing the point about this specific arc. One of the major plot points of House of X was the development of a resurrection system for mutants. Subsequent comics have been dealing with how the new Krakoa-based mutant culture develops, given that the resurrection system exists, especially with the ~1 million mutants depowered by Wanda in Decimation.

[Fyraltari]

Jason Todd was DC.

And DC has the same problem. Which is why the quote doesn't name Marvel and lists him.

[Anonymouswizard]

At some point I'd like to see Marvel to pull a Down And Out In The Magic Kingdom. Kill a character not to shock, but just because somebody needs them out of the way for a few hours.


While I've never seen that Linkara episode, I agree in principle. On the other hand many stories also have the 'John's old friend' issue, where a character is introduced entirely to be killed. Although half the reason I want to read Hellblazer is to see if that stands up to scrutiny.

[Peelee]

For all the talk about bringing back dead characters... it's not wrong, but it's kind of missing the point about this specific arc.

But I'm not reading this specific arc. I'm not reading the comics at all. It's effectively like me talking about the use of amnesia in soap operas (which is incredibly fitting because, from the outside, comics seem to have basically become superhero-based soap operas).

And DC has the same problem. Which is why the quote doesn't name Marvel and lists him.

But I didn't use that quote. I kept my observation purely on Marvel.

[Rater202]

I didn't know Marvel Comics was this self-aware.

The X-Men found a way to cheat the system.

A mutant named Gold Balls has the power of generating giant golden balls of inert biological matter.

It's eventually determined that they're essentially giant egg cells... Though they don't have their own DNA.

By combining his powers with those of a Reality Warper, a Biokinetic, a Chronokinetic, and a Power Manipulator, they can use mutant DNA to create a perfect duplicate of someone's body at either the time of their death or at their physical prime, whichever works better for them. The process also fixes any minor damage or imbalances they might have in the body and optimizes their powers. If you had powers as a result of your biology but lost them, then as long as you still have the genes you come back with those powers.

By then having a telepath transfer a backup of their memories and consciousness into the duplicate, the original person is properly brought back to life(it's confirmed to be proper ressurection. Orignal soul and all, which is based on previously established rules about cloning a person.)

It's not perfect though. They can make minor cosmetic changes and they can guarantee that you'll come back with say, your metal bones or your cyber-arm(reality-warping covers a multitude of handwaves) but they can't fix anything you have because of the natural expression of your superhuman powers and they can't fix any issues that have come to be part of your identity or the ressurection won't hold.

So they can give you a nose job or permenantly thin out your unwanted body hair, but they can't make Cosmar not look like a deformed frog or fix Chamber's missing jaw.

(All cards on the table, Chamber has flat out said that he doesn't want his jaw fixed and it's implied that he could have fixed it himself if he wanted to.)

You can use this sentence for virtually every major Marvel character who isn't named "Uncle Ben".

Mar-Vel and pretty much every d-lister who didn't just disappear disagree with you.

Unless you're counting temporary stuff.

The quote used to be "No-one stays dead in [superhero] comics, except Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy and Jason Todd." Now, it's just Uncle Ben. For now.

For reals though, Linkara, from Atop the Fourth Wall once did a mighty rant about how the "never stays dead" rule only applies to the big names with brand recognition, and how many interesting small-time characters with plenty of potential get killed, often for cheap drama points or to hype-up the lastest "serious" ubervillain every will have forgotten about three months later, and are then never brought back, because they weren't any writer's favourite.

Unless you're talking about Spider-Gwen, Gwen Stacy never came back.

Well, she did in clone conspiracy but she was living on borrowed time. If we're counting temporary stuff then Uncle Ben has come back too.

So, the second volume of Superior Spider-Man has Otto decide that he needs to take care of everything going on with the WAr of The Realms... And recruit the West Coast Avengers—Kate Bishop, America Chavez, two original characters whose names I've forgotten*," Kid Omega, and Gwenpool.

None of them are quite willing to get invovled in the main events becuase they've got their hands full just protecting LA and none of them really have the power or experience to handle dealing with major crap in invasions like this...

Except for Gwenpool, who explains "oh, don't worry, in events like this nobody dies except for legacy characters that the author didn't grow up with."

Then she has to explain what a legacy character is—someone who uses the name or gimmick of a previously established hero. Sometimes they have a direct connection to the original and sometimes they're just a knockoff.

And then it occurs to everyone their entire group meets that definition so if Gwen's rambling is right, they're all kind of screwed.

[Keltest]

Im going to be honest, while i never took Marvel comics particularly seriously, the fact that you opened up that explanation with "A mutant named Gold Balls" mostly just lends credence to the idea that the whole thing is just a mess of terrible writing that doesnt deserve the level of investment that youre giving it.

[Peelee]

Im going to be honest, while i never took Marvel comics particularly seriously, the fact that you opened up that explanation with "A mutant named Gold Balls" mostly just lends credence to the idea that the whole thing is just a mess of terrible writing that doesnt deserve the level of investment that youre giving it.

Aye. Not to mention that it doesn't help when that's most of my takeaway once I see how long the post is. Rater, have you considered summarizing things instead to make it easier?

Mar-Vel and pretty much every d-lister who didn't just disappear disagree with you.

It's a good thing I said "major character", then.

[Fyraltari]

But I didn't use that quote. I kept my observation purely on Marvel.

Yes, I know. I did. I was agreeing with your point by broadening it. This is a normal feature of conversation.

A mutant named Gold Balls

*Immature snickering*

Unless you're talking about Spider-Gwen, Gwen Stacy never came back.

Why wouldn't we?

[Peelee]

Yes, I know. I did. I was agreeing with your point by broadening it. This is a normal feature of conversation.

If I make a statement about Star Wars and someone else brings up a thing about both Star Wars and Star Trek, then saying "but I wasn't talking about Star Trek" is hardly invalid.

[Rater202]

Im going to be honest, while i never took Marvel comics particularly seriously, the fact that you opened up that explanation with "A mutant named Gold Balls" mostly just lends credence to the idea that the whole thing is just a mess of terrible writing that doesnt deserve the level of investment that youre giving it.

That's not a writing issue.

The character in question has "kind of sucks at coming up with code names" as one of his character traits.

"Huh... My mutant power is creating giant golden-colored balls out of thin air... I'll call myself Gold Balls." It's considered kind of a silly name in-universe.

General consensus among readers is that he's a great character.

Aye. Not to mention that it doesn't help when that's most of my takeaway once I see how long the post is. Rater, have you considered summarizing things instead to make it easier?

...This is the summary. I can't condense it any more than I already have without leaving out vital context.

It's a good thing I said "major character", then.

That still leaves Mar-Vell. Mar-Vell was kind of a big deal and continues to be a big deal following his death.

And yet, he's never been resurrected. Like, Marvel released a statement that the only way he'd ever come back to life is if a cure for cancer was discovered in real life.

And they've stuck to their guns on that for decades.

Why wouldn't we?

Spider-Gwen, or Ghost Spider to use her proper hero name, has virtually no relation to the Gwen Stacy of eArth 616.

She is originally from Earth 65, a universe that is rdically different from the main universe. Her name is Gwen Stacy, she is the daughter of George Stacy, who is a Captain at NYPD.

They otherwise have nothing in common.

[Peelee]

...This is the summary. I can't condense it any more than I already have without leaving out vital context.

"They have a mutant who can create a perfect duplicate of someone's body and another to telepathically transfer a backup of their memories and consciousness into the duplicate, so the original person is properly brought back to life."

Bam, one sentence. What you consider "vital context" is not actually vital context. It's stuff you think is interesting. That's perfectly fine, you've been broadcasting that you love getting into the weeds on the exact and specific details since as long as I've known you, but "stuff you care about" and "stuff other people absolutely need to know to answer a question/comment" are not one single circle on the Venn diagram.

[Keltest]

That's not a writing issue.

The character in question has "kind of sucks at coming up with code names" as one of his character traits.

"Huh... My mutant power is creating giant golden-colored balls out of thin air... I'll call myself Gold Balls." It's considered kind of a silly name in-universe.

General consensus among readers is that he's a great character.

That does very little to affect my opinion on the general quality of marvel comics writing as of this time. Just because they acknowledge that its silly doesnt make it less silly.

[Fyraltari]

If I make a statement about Star Wars and someone else brings up a thing about both Star Wars and Star Trek, then saying "but I wasn't talking about Star Trek" is hardly invalid.

If you bring a thing up about Star Wars, and somebody says the same thing applies to 95% of science-fiction, then saying "but I was only talking about Star Wars" is true but it doesn't move the conversation in way unless you bring up a way the thing is uniquely relevant to Star Wars.

But more importantly, when I brought that quote up, you didn't say "that may be true, but I'm only interested in Marvel Comics" or something to that effect, you said "Jason Todd was DC" as if I had mistaken him for a Marvel character.

[Peelee]

That does very little to affect my opinion on the general quality of marvel comics writing as of this time. Just because they acknowledge that its silly doesnt make it less silly.

I'm a lot more forgiving if they deal with stuff like that in-universe and recognize it. Case in point, Booster Gold. Gold Balls is probably the apex of meta ridiculousness, but not as bad as if it was done without them recognizing in-universe how he is.

[Keltest]

I'm a lot more forgiving if they deal with stuff like that in-universe and recognize it. Case in point, Booster Gold. Gold Balls is probably the apex of meta ridiculousness, but not as bad as if it was done without them recognizing in-universe how he is.

Depends on the media for me. Comic books are already fairly inherently silly, so if they go deeper into that particular rabbit hole, im not inclined to view it kindly, even if they do cop to it being extra silly. Youve got plenty to work with already without deliberately being farcical about it.

[Form]

Ok, swapping out my old HDD for a new SSD seems to have been successful. Had a brief scare there with my cables and SSD placement, but it's hooked up, is operational and looks fine so far. Nice to know I can at least handle the simplest of hardware tasks.

[Rater202]

That does very little to affect my opinion on the general quality of marvel comics writing as of this time. Just because they acknowledge that its silly doesnt make it less silly.

Look, if you want to criticize Marvel's writing there are a lot better examples than one character being bad at names.

Recently a writer decided that the best way to write Iron Fist was to by sideline him in his own comic in order to promote Okoye.

Complete with him giving his powers to her permanently so that she could be the one to save Kun Lun instead of him and be super special awesome.

Not, Danny, the city's actual champion's actual Champion. Or Pei, Danny's adopted daughter who has the same powers as him, has passed all of the tests to be acknowledged as an Iron Fist, had already saved the world twice, has all but been outright said to be Danny's official successor as Iron Fist, and is in general just kind of the best.

And now he's being replaced as Iron Fist not by his aforementioned daughter, but by Sword Master. A character with no connection to the Iron Fist Lore whatsoever, who already has his own gimmick.

Because someone in editorial wanted to retire Danny and replace him with an Asian character and... They couldn't use Pei for some reason?

[LaZodiac]

You know, an important corollary of Liking Things A Normal Amount (which is to say; understanding that you should try and not have media so tied into your soul that Thing Different makes you die) is that you are also responsible for Disliking Things A Normal Amount. As in, not hating something to the point that it consumes your life utterly and makes you miserable.

That being said; it seems like this story is being written with intention and no slapdash nonsense- beyond the standard cape-comic brand of sci fi silliness that comes with the territory- and as such it should be taken as "they know what they're doing", especially if prior works have been quite good. It's always possible for a writer to make something less good than what they did next, I get that fear (why do you think it's taken so long for Hidden Embers to come out : D ) but I've seen so many kneejerk reactions out of nowhere for stuff that, once the story concluded, made perfect sense and were good actually.

In short, I agree with Rater that people should be less hyperbolic with hating a story midway through just because some of it feels weird. Sandman had a really ****ty chapter once and it's one of my favorite stories! These happen sometimes, and when it's all said and done then we can begin the dissection.

(also, in a genre like this, having a character comment on the silliness of "hah sorry, I'm kinda bad at coming up with code names" is actually funny. I've had the occasional spat with a friend on whether "it's stupid on purpose" is good or bad writing, and honestly after all this my opinion on it is "who cares if you like it like it and if you don't don't".)

As a personal note I find the idea of "the real Wanda revives herself and has to contend with an obviously not correct clone of herself" to be pretty amusing, but then I've been drip-feed watching Wandavision so maybe she's just on my mind.

[Rater202]

As a personal note I find the idea of "the real Wanda revives herself and has to contend with an obviously not correct clone of herself" to be pretty amusing, but then I've been drip-feed watching Wandavision so maybe she's just on my mind.

It didn't really end up playing out that way.

Wanda and the clone briefly co-existed, along with an elderly version of Wanda from a potential future that Wanda was fighting while in Limbo, but only long enough to deal with the Kaiju that Clone Wanda accidentally conjured when she had a panic attack after being telepathically "brought up to speed" and finding out about things like "M-Day" or "The time 'I' tried to make up for M-Day nut instead accidentally caused a localized Zombie Apocalypse."

Then the three Wandas fused ito a single entity with "main" Wanda being the dominant personality(though she seems to be using Clone Wanda's body.)

Wanda makes comments about feeling at peace with her past, present, and future just after it happens.

[Fyraltari]

While I've never seen that Linkara episode, I agree in principle.

Found it:

[LaZodiac]

It didn't really end up playing out that way.

Wanda and the clone briefly co-existed, along with an elderly version of Wanda from a potential future that Wanda was fighting while in Limbo, but only long enough to deal with the Kaiju that Clone Wanda accidentally conjured when she had a panic attack after being telepathically "brought up to speed" and finding out about things like "M-Day" or "The time 'I' tried to make up for M-Day nut instead accidentally caused a localized Zombie Apocalypse."

Then the three Wandas fused ito a single entity with "main" Wanda being the dominant personality(though she seems to be using Clone Wanda's body.)

Wanda makes comments about feeling at peace with her past, present, and future just after it happens.

Yeah I'm just gonna listen to "Agatha All Along" again and call it a night, that ending is kinda... weird. Spiritual signifigent to the character in a way that feels somehow lackluster a conclusion, but I don't know the context so that's just me talking out my ass, really.

[Rater202]

Yeah I'm just gonna listen to "It Was Agatha All Along" again and call it a night, that ending is kinda... weird. Spiritual signifigent to the character in a way that feels somehow lackluster a conclusion, but I don't know the context so that's just me talking out my ass, really.

For what it's worth, it's not actually a conclusion.

The issue ends with Wanda seemingly having an epiphany and then stating that she knows who the person who attacked her is. There's one issue left in the Mini-series, so...

Since the comic is being framed as a whodunnit, I imagine that the final issue is going to be Wanda explaining her account of the attack and what it is that makes her think that she knows who her attacker was, which will be cross-referenced with other facts of the case and then the reader will have a page or two to guess based on the facts before the actual killer is revealed.

(Personally, I think it's Mystique. She has a motive, she had the means to commit the murder, tamper with the old backup to explain the discrepancies in the clone's behavior, and frame Magneto, and her actions in another comic that is big published concurrently but takes place later would make more sense if there was a distraction going on while she did it.)

[Anonymouswizard]

Im going to be honest, while i never took Marvel comics particularly seriously, the fact that you opened up that explanation with "A mutant named Gold Balls" mostly just lends credence to the idea that the whole thing is just a mess of terrible writing that doesnt deserve the level of investment that youre giving it.

I've read enough cyberpunk to know that it's a bad idea to mess with somebody if 1) they have the ability to acquire giant gold balls and 2) they have decided to name themselves after such items.

But yeah, at some point during any long running franchise there will be writers who come up with frankly stupid ideas (*cough* Timeless Child *cough*). At the end of the day you have to wait out the decision to replace the Celestial Integration Agency with a group that's basically 'them, but without any of the moral ambiguity'.

Actually, that kind of gets into what's really driving me away from modern Who. The creators seem to want to have the Time Lords as the main villains but don't want Gallifrey around for some reason. This was acceptable during the Davies and Moffat eras, because Davies spent four years making sure that the confirmation of their pseudosurvival was a genuine surprise, whereas Moffat made sure to bring Gallifrey back before using them as villains. But Chibnall wanted to leave his cake untouched while eating all of it, destroying the planet and then bringing in an entire new shadowy government organisation/set of renegades.

[Form]

You know, an important corollary of Liking Things A Normal Amount (which is to say; understanding that you should try and not have media so tied into your soul that Thing Different makes you die) is that you are also responsible for Disliking Things A Normal Amount. As in, not hating something to the point that it consumes your life utterly and makes you miserable.

But how will I give meaning to my life if every waking moment is not filled with intense, seething and irrational hatred for inconsequential things?

[LaZodiac]

But how will I give meaning to my life if every waking moment is not filled with intense, seething and irrational hatred for inconsequential things?

By eating a really good sandwich, tbh.

[dafrca]

But how will I give meaning to my life if every waking moment is not filled with intense, seething and irrational hatred for inconsequential things?

By eating a really good sandwich, tbh.

This exchange is flat out great.

And I agree 100% with the answer as well by the way.

[HalfTangible]

But how will I give meaning to my life if every waking moment is not filled with intense, seething and irrational hatred for inconsequential things?

Buy dice. Obviously.